The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Community Bake - Semolina/Durum and similar grain breads

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Community Bake - Semolina/Durum and similar grain breads

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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic
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TFL Community Bakes are the result of CB founder Dan.  His own creation and nurturing, to interest and help others, and in turn be helped, as we all strive to improve our baking skills and widen our baking horizons.  Kudos to him for this lasting gift for us all.

For this CB I’d like to continue to focus on a grain rather than a specific bread style, as was the original focus in the previous Deli-Rye CB.  I love semolina based breads, having grown up a stone’s throw from a few Italian bakeries, and consider the sesame semolina bread to be a foundational food on my personal food pyramid!

 

Clarification.  I refer to semolina in a generic sense.  I really am referring to durum, the finely machined version known in Italian as semola rimacinata which carries a protein of ~12%.  Semolina is too coarse and hard a grain for typical bread baking.  But there are no holds barred here in our CBs, and if you wish to bake with it as I have, feel free to experiment with the least coarse of the grinds.  I reference two short descriptions here:

 This durum wheat flour is a double ground (rimacinata) flour with very soft and fine texture. Its signature yellowish tint and resistant elastic gluten make it ideal for all extruded pastas and breads, or wherever the characteristics of semolina are desired.

Semolina is coarsely ground durum wheat (grano duro, triticum durum - a varitey of wheat) and its often used to make pasta. When it's called semola rimacinata in Italian, it refers to semolina which has been re-milled to make it finer and more suitable for bread baking.

 When I refer to “bread flour” in the below descriptions, I am employing Mr. Hamelman’s usage.  He refers to bread flour as what we generally call an AP flour.  His point of reference is the King Arthur AP Flour which has a protein level of 11.7%.

 

Whether you have access to semolina or not, perhaps you can join with bakes of what I consider to be somewhat related grains.  I have never baked with the last four on the list below, and therefore cannot offer recommendations as to how they may work out.  Experienced ancient grain bakers on TFL should have a better understanding to offer during this CB.  You will be able to bake these breads with the first three grains listed, and may be able to do so with the final four grains.  Included in the list, but not exclusive, are:
  • Semola rimacinata: Extra finely milled Durum wheat
  • Durum Atta: Indian durum similar to semola rimacinata.  Atta may refer to more than one type of wheat, look for the ingredient that says Durum.  May also contain some whole grain.
  • Tritordeum: Hybrid grain of barley and durum developed these past few decades in Spain and available in some European markets.

I am offering five differing semolina based breads, all with some unique characteristic that makes each one different from its brethren.  However only three will appear in this CB posting.  These three will also appear in the Companion Blog along with two additional suggestions.  Taken as a whole, the five carry some combination of these characteristics:

  • Semolina percentages from 40% to 100%
  • Preferment hydration percentages from 50% to 125%
  • Overall hydration percentages from 65% to 78%

For each style of bread, I provide "in house” versions, highlighting the baking prowess of our own folk.  The reference links will take you to the original author’s TFL write up, and to my Companion Blog Post with each formula.  Each formula presented is my interpretation of the bread.

One more thing: Don’t let the shapes and sizes dictate how you wish to proceed.  Feel free to experiment with boules, batards (long and normal), baguettes, filones, ficelles, dinner rolls...

Semolina "Pain au Levain".  This Jeffrey Hamelman version has a 60/40 mix of semolina/bread flour, employs a 125% hydration bread flour levain, and carries an overall hydration of 67%.

1) One of TFL’s resident Kiwis, leslieruf offers her version.

2) My own take for one of my go-to breads, on this marvelous winning delight.

 

Tom Cat Semolina Filone.  Maggie Glezer’s version of this on again/off again occasional TFL favorite will challenge you due to its very high hydration.  I found this bread difficult to wrangle, but it makes some of the finest toast I’ve ever had.  55.5/45.5 semolina/bread flour, 130% hydration Poolish, 89% overall hydration.  

NOTE: Due to a misunderstanding of American English/Transcription error, the original Tom Cat formula that previously was posted below carried an absurdly high overall 89% hydration.  Thanks to an email conversation with Abe, it was determined that the Poolish was incorrectly stated.  The corrected version is now in its place, with an Poolish hydration of 90% and an overall hydration of 75%.  The 45/55 % or AP/Semolina still remains.

1) semolina_man baked a delightful version of this bread.  

2) As does dmsnyder, David's interpretation.

Pane di Altamura/Matera. These two neighboring towns, in the heel region of the Italian peninsula, produce rather uniquely shaped (or mis-shapen) breads.  

Altamura is 100% semolina including a 66% hydration biga, with a relatively low overall hydration of 65%.  

Matera is also 100% semolina including a 50% hydration levain / lievito madre with a 66% overall hydration.

EDIT.  Build 3 above should read 150g Sem., 75g Water.

1) Our own breadforfun’s Brad did a field trip to Altamura several years ago, and reports on his experience and bake.  

2) Baker anonymous, better known as Abe, offers us his version
The fine print...
As always, the CB occupies a corner of TFL.  Created as a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills.  By no means are the formulae provided meant to be the be-all-and-end-all of the CB.  Rather, they are a framework of distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria.  I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions.  And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers.  I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!
 And as our Community Bake founder Dan said:
All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants get active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.

Here is a list of our past CBs. 

They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.
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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.

Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB *For the original postings please click the links above.  My posting of the formula write-ups, click here.
idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Feb. 14, 2021.

Woo hoo! Progress!  

I finally made a mostly-WW durum loaf (75% Fiber Wala, 25% KABF) that is worthy of sharing with others, bake 38.3.

This particular loaf was too small to share, about 220 grams dough weight, so it will be eaten up in an hour or two.

I did three things at once, so I'm not sure which were crucial/critical. 

  • two stage hydration.
  • 25% KABF.
  • 1% nutritional yeast.

First off, this Fiber Wala durum flour needs about 89% hydration. But, it you autolyse/soak it with that much, or even 85%, you get a super-sticky paste that is near impossible to work with.

So in mini-bake 38.1 (100 grams flour), I hydrated it at 77%, and it was not sticky. This was with 2% salt in the soak. I soaked it over night, and it was still not sticky the next day. Then I slowly added water, 3 grams at a time, 5 times, resulting in +15% or 92% total.  Got a good crumb. Sorry, didn't take pics.

--

Bake 38.2, 100 grams Fiber Wala, no salt, 85% hydration up front. It was too sticky up front, so I put a little oil in the baggie that I stored it in. Next day, even stickier. Added 2% salt and still sticky, it did not firm up. Still a "paste" more than a dough.

Added 4% more water, for a total of 89%. Baked it after only a little fermentation. Sort of a decent crumb, showing that hydration was good, but poor fermentation, because I was in a hurry.

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So here is my deduction/assumption:  The bran in this WW durum absorbs water faster than the endosperm of durum. And at a certain percentage, somewhere between 77 and 85%, the bran turns excessively sticky (low/no-bran durum never get this sticky) and then... it's as if the bran never releases the excess water.  As if the endosperm can never "take back" the excess water that the bran gobbled up.

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Bake 38.3, pics below. This time used one of my "combo" recipes that I sometimes use for pizza dough, usually with regular WW, but now testing with durum.

75% Fiber Wala, 25% King Arthur bread flour, 2.5% whole dry chia, 2.5% ground flax, .33% instant dry yeast, 7.5% of 100% hydration starter, 1% nutritional yeast.

The procedure this time was to hydrate the Fiber Wala at 77% and after the soak, bring it up to 89%.

The soak here had everything up front, flour, water, salt, chia, flax, IDY, starter, nutritional yeast.

I think I gave it about 30 minutes rest at room temp. Then overnight in the fridge.

I assumed the KABF portion wanted 70% hydration. So keeping that fixed, the 77% to 89% hydration was calculated just on the Fiber Wala portion.  Example:

  • 120 gr FW @ 77% = 92.4 gr.
  • 40  gr KABF@ 70% = 28 gr.
  • (160 gr total flour).
  • 120 gr FW @ 12% = 14.4 gr

So for the 160 grams of flour, I used 92.4 + 28 = 120 grams water for the soak.

Then the next day, added 14.4 grams water after the soak.

The14.4 grams of water at once did make it sticky, but not as bad as when 85% or 89% had been added at once on prior bakes.

Admittedly, this assumes the KABF "stands pat" at 70%, not giving up, nor taking away water from the durum.

So, the next bake, #39, or "mini bake" 38.4, will have an overnight soak at 77%, but the added 12% will be done in two stages: +6%, an hour or so rest, then another 6%.

Whether it is absolutely needed or not, the 25% KABF and the 1% nutritional yeast will have to be played with, to determine how much they factor in.

But for 75% whole grain, this was a superb crumb. Very worthy of showing off to friends and neighbors.

My next goal, is to push/tweak this to 90% Fiber Wala. 

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Note: there is another user who recently posted a bake with whole grain durum in Greece, or at least with Greek flour. They complained about the excess stickyness and paste like nature of the dough.  This two-stage (or three stage, doing two separate additions of water after the overnight soak) hydration process should be good news.

--

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Big leap in the crumb with this bake, good job Dave.

Benny

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Thank you Benny.

My next experiment will need to see if the same thing can be accomplished without the nutritional yeast.  And then to see what percent non-durum white bread flour is needed.

But man, this two-stage hydration insight, for whole grain durum, is what has turned the corner for me.  Without it, WW durum has to either be a minority player in the dough, or else limited to flat-breads.

If I can concoct a repeatable formula with commercial yeast, no white flour, and maybe a mix of Desi Style and Fiber Wala, for a loaf bread, I may submit it to the Brar Mills folks, for inclusion on their web site.

---

My "standard" in the past has been 90% whole grain, for my consumption; but 75% is about the max that impresses others.

I still want to tempt you to "the dark side" of 75%+ whole grain.  As a doc, you know that you should be eating bread of mostly whole grain, not mostly refined flour, for reasons of both glycemic index, and digestive system health.

And based on the consistent high quality of your bakes, I think you are ready for a new challenge, or "next step."  Admit it... you are now among the TFL "elite" bakers. Like in golf, you need a handicap to make things fair to the rest of us duffers. ;-)

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Dave for your kind words.  I think that my baking has come a long way in the past year but I do not feel that I am an elite baker.  Far from it, I still have lots to learn and improve upon.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Feb. 15, 2021.

Also blogged here: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67438/mini-bake-384-ww-durum-tortilla-chapati-02152021

  • Whole grain durum flour, Sher Fiber Wala from Brar Mills, 100%.
  • 77% water, room temp 70 F.
  • 2% salt.

Mix and knead until smooth.

Let rest at least 60 minutes. Durum takes a while to absorb water.

Knead for a few seconds.

Separate/weigh-out a 62 gram piece of dough. 

I use a center-bulge wooden rolling pin. Straight cylinder rolling pins tend to make square dough pieces when I used them. 

I put a few drops of grapeseed oil on the rolling pin and spread it around on the pin, so it won't stick to the dough. And it imparts just the right amount of oil to the dough.

I roll the dough and rotate it 90 degrees, doing that 4 times, then flip and repeat, until it makes a rough circle 8" in diameter.

I cook on a Lodge cast iron 9.25" diameter griddle.  If you don't oil the rolling pin, spread 2 or 3 drops of oil on the griddle and spread it with a paper towel.

The griddle is pre-heated at setting 3 or 3.5 out of 10 on my electric stove-top burner.

I cook the first side only 30 seconds, to set it, then flip. Then I cook the second side until it is has the right amount of brown spots,  pressing down with a spatula all around so it cooks evenly, because it will inflate. Then I flip it back to the first side, and finish cooking it, again pressing all around with a metal spatula.

If you don't eat it immediately, put it in a "tortillera" container, or wrap in aluminum foil, or let cool a few seconds and put it in a sealable plastic bag. This is so the inner moisture migrates out and softens the surface.  

You should not cook it until the skin is crispy, but it will dry and stiffen if you don't enclose it in something. In a few minutes, the tortilla/chapati will be soft and flexible.

The paper plate in the photos is 9" in diameter.

 

justkeepswimming's picture
justkeepswimming

After some gentle encouragement, here is my submission to the CB - a simple Semolina Sandwich loaf. Recipe is found here, and details of the bake are here. The crumb at the bottom is a little flat/less open. The final proof got away from me a bit (our kitchen has been warmer than usual the last few days). Do you think that's why it did that? It's not bad, and I have definitely done worse, lol. 

It's Interesting, I don't taste the semolina until the bread is toasted. Then there is a gentle, almost buttery flavor that kicks in. The crumb is soft but firm enough to make a nice sandwich and held together well with our lunch today. I'll have to try this again sometime, and use rimacinata instead. 

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

...and agreed, toasted is best. Toasted and dipped in olive oil even better!  A lovely loaf. 

justkeepswimming's picture
justkeepswimming

Thanks!

And I LOVE olive oil on bread or toast. We have the very good fortune of living only 25 min from an olive grove, where they cold press olive oil regularly. It has been a fascinating discovery to see how it is all done.

I recently started keeping a small container of olive oil in the frig. It barely solidifies, just enough to make it easy to put on freshly sliced bread. It melts right into the crumb while still being spread. So good.... 

Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely even sandwich bread crumb with such a great yellow colour.  That’s got to make a great sandwich or toast, well done.

Benny

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I milled durum wheat berries tonight and used 100g of the sifted bran/middlings from a #60 sieve for my final durum levain build at 50:60:100 to prepare for tomorrow.  After working everything together it feels extremely elastic, almost like a hybrid between play-dough and bubble gum.  I recall scanning some earlier threads about "the wrong kind" of durum for bread baking.  I can see how the dough comes together tomorrow but am looking for any pointers that might help avoid disaster.  I can't imagine kneading or shaping this!

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

Finally got around to posting results of 96 hour retard for my second 1 kg mega-batard with poppy, sesame, fennel seed. Pre-shape, shape durations, room temperature and baking temperatures pretty much the same as for previous batard. See my blog for history.

  • Dough seemed harder to handle, wetter, slacker(?”)
  • Less oven spring, no ear to speak of
  • Good crumb, thicker crust
  • Delicate, but more complex flavor

Conclusion: 96 hours maybe a tad too long for this dough, but overall a nice bread which I will bake again as more normal 800 g batards and maybe baguettes.


Benito's picture
Benito

Love the seeds, you did a great job with getting a dense seeded crust which I love.  Yes your cold retard went kinda long and the dough is a bit over proofed, but only a bit.  I bet it tastes great though.

Benny

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Blog entry at: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67450/39th-bake-02162021-80-ww-durum-3-stage-hydration

Feb. 16, 2021.

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As a result of experimenting with 3 "mini-bakes" (38.1, 38.2, 38.3), I think my "baseline" for hydrating this whole grain durum is to soak it several hours at 77% hydration, and after the soak slowly bring it up to 89% hydration for the bulk ferment, adding the additional 12% water in two steps to avoid excess stickiness.

Going directly to 89% hydration turns the dough into a sticky paste that makes it more or less unworkable.  But hydrating it slowly, allows it to stay in the form of a workable dough.

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Goals/plan:  Use 640 grams of total flour to get a 9" diameter boule, 80% whole wheat durum (Sher Fiber Wala), 20% KA bread flour, do a three stage hydration of the durum (add 77% H2O, soak, add 6%, wait, add 6%), 5% chia, 1% nutritional yeast (add after the first soak, with the first 6% water), use sourdough starter -- no commercial yeast.

I forgot to include the starter's flour and water in the calculations and ended up with 77% durum instead of 80%.  

At the last minute decided to leave out the nutritional yeast.

I hadn't planned on adding oil, but during the preparation of the soaker, the dough stuck to the bowl, so I added about 1 tbsp of regular olive oil. I added one more tbsp of regular olive oil during stretch and folds.

 [ 1:20 pm - 9:10 pm. 7 hours 50 minutes - non-fermenting soak/hydration, with salt, of just the WW durum.]

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Formula stats / percentages:

Total flour: 512 ww durum + 128 KABF + 25 KABF (starter) = 665.

Total Water, not counting soaker: 394 initially to soak the ww durum + 61 added to durum in stages + 84 with the KABF + 25 (starter) = 564.

Grand Total water: 394 + 61 + 84 + 86 (soaker)+ 25 (starter) = 650.

% hydration not counting soaker:  564 / 665 = 84.8%.

Add-in seed soaker: 32 g whole chia, 20 g ground flax, 86 boiling water.

Grand total hydration, including soaker: 650 / ( 665 + 52 ) = 650 / 717 = 90.6%.

% pre-fermented flour: 25 / 665 = 3.7%. (51 grams of 100% hydration starter)

% whole grain: 512 / 665 = 77%.

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Feb. 17, 2021.

[ 9:10 pm - 5:45 am.  8 hours, 35 minutes bulk ferment, cool room temp ~68 F. ]

5:45 am - fold, shape,  put in lined and dusted banneton and back in cold oven.

7:50 am - put banneton in fridge. Start oven warm-up to *495 / 470 F.

[ 5:45 am - 8:50 am. 3 hours, 5 minutes final proof. ]

8:50 am- bake covered, 475 / 450 F. 15 minutes.

9:05 am -  bake covered, 450 / 425 F. 15 minutes.

9:20 am -  bake uncovered, 425 / 400 F. 25 minutes. 

 9:45 am - done, looks nice, internal temp 209.3 F.

11:35 am - Not satisfied with how it "thumps" at center of bottom of loaf, so I put it in pre-heated 375 / 350 F oven for 10 minutes. Tested again. Baked for another 3 minutes -- 13 minutes total. It now sounds good when thumped on bottom at center.

 --

* First temp is the oven thermostat setting, second temp is a thermometer reading. Oven appears 25 degrees off, if my thermometer is correct.

 

 

Going to (try to) wait until tomorrow before cutting open.  Loaf's heft is not as much as bakes 36-38, obviously less dense, so I'm hoping for a decent crumb.

The poor oven spring is likely due to overfementation. But hey, I'm still trying to find my groove with this WW durum. 

More photos and details at the above blog link.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

hello, friends.

Did you all miss my annoying sense of humor? Well, I miss you guys. I will get to this semolina bake soon. Meantime, if anyone is interested, this is my take on Maggie's formula. High hydration, yes. manageable, yes. I find that semolina given enough time to hydrate is a very high hydration-friendly flour. Enjoy! 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I imagine to go down the sourdough route (will be good for flavour and be a substitute for vinegar, needed for the baking powder, and yeast) then simply pre-ferment the flour at 100% hydration, adding the remainder of the liquid when putting it in the food processor. Rest as in the video. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

How is this possible I just watched the same video!

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Our YouTube searches are similar :)

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Looks wonderful.  Sorry but can you give more details as to how to use sourdough starter instead of yeast. And if you can use discard starter? Thanks. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Most of the rise, or bubbles, will be coming from the baking powder. Not sure how much the yeast will be providing but with no standing time it'll be minimal. If you use starter or starter discard it'll mostly be for flavour. And because it'll be acidic it can act as the catalyst for the baking powder and possibly the vinegar might not be needed but no harm in including it. How about 200g AP flour starter/discard at 100% hydration. That should replace the 100g white flour and 100g/ml of the water. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I cut it open about 24 hours after t finished baking yesterday; the 2nd bake, 13 minutes outside the dutch oven.

The oven spring was not what I'm looking for, but this crumb is near perfect for me. 

Unfortunately, the taste is not what I'm looking for either. But it is good toasted.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

48 hours after bake, the flavor is improved.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

My first attempt at a home-milled whole grain durum/semolina with remilled bran powder levain.

It has a tight crumb but flavor is enjoyable. I will try this one again at higher hydration.

details: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67153/companion-blog-semolina-community-bake

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and I love when the grigne opens as this one does and has such a craggy oven spring.  Gives the loaf a better look.  Is the color in the crumb picture accurate?, as the crumb is so dark.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks.  I think a dense bread like this one does benefit from the appearance.  Hopefully bumping the hydration up will help open it up a little and perhaps prevent the outer damage and "pockmarks" that occurred on the outer skin during shaping.  I checked a few other photos and I think the color is fairly accurate, but it was taken at night with artificial light.  This one is gone now, but I'll try to get the next one in daylight.

Benito's picture
Benito

Handsome loaf you baked there.  Nice job with the seeding.  Do you think that doing the seeding tightened up the crumb?  I found it challenging to seed the outside without some degree of degassing.

Benny

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks.  I seeded this one after a cold retard.  This whole grain dough felt extremely dense at that point, so I'm not so sure degassing played a role.  I'll boost hydration of the soaker and maybe try some incremental hydration based on @idaveindy's experiments to see if I can open up the next one.

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Finally, I did my second test of 43% Durum Sourdough Bread. I have increased the hydration to 70% and honestly, I think it could have accepted even more water. As I was satisfied with the result I stopped the tests, but I am sure that one day I'll come back to this recipe and test the hydration to its maximum.

You guys, made me take the forgotten durum flour bag and bake something with it. I almost forgot about this amazing golden flour. Now my flour is over and I am ready to order more. Thank you for this great motivation and challenge with the community bakes!

Ingredients:

  • 350g sourdough starter at 100% hydration
  • 545g bread flour (12.5% protein)
  • 545g durum flour (semola rimacinata)
  • 650g water
  • 22g salt

 

And I also managed to make a video about it:

Benito's picture
Benito

Very very attractive loaves, zig zag scoring with extra points for the additional decoration.  This is a fancied up Alan ziggy score.

Benny

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Scoring the bread is like the cherry on the cake. It just emphasizes the beauty behind it.

Thank you so much, Benny for your comment! Very much appreciated!

Denisa.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Very nice loaves and thank you much for the video.  Very nice to see the visual queues people discuss.  But by far, the best thing about your video was your helper.  :-)   So awesome that you can get him involved and maybe pique an interest that young!

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

The little one is very curious about everything I do and if I cannot keep him far from my dough I have to involve him. He is for sure very interested to help with the dough regardless this is becoming a hobby for him or not. For me, the most satisfying moment is when he asks to eat a slice of bread. With this, I am definitely influencing him to make a clear distinction about how a good bread should taste ;)

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

His interest in baking may wax and wane, but he will always remember these times, and the smell of fresh baked bread will always bring him back to these moments.  Good stuff.  ;-)

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Exactly! Even if he is not yet 4yo some memories remain for life. But for us, as adults, it is also valid. Neither I or my husband cannot choose another type of bread other than sourdough. Every time we go on holidays, we are missing homemade sourdough bread.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

as usual.  Too nice looking to eat, but c'est la vie, that's what food is for!  

I found that creating the 'Ziggy' scores with a serrated bread knife gives a clean easy cut.  I'd seen Abel Sierra (abelbreadgallery) do it first on TFL.

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Thank you! This is interesting. I have not tried to score the loaves with a knife, always with a blade. I will check his profile. Thanks for the tip!

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

Been trying to wrap my head around where Hamelman was going with his 125% hydration levain. The levain was certainly “liquide” so pretty easy to handle but I’m not getting why not to just use 100% which, to my mind, makes calculations and adjustments a bit easier to manage. I think my next batch of Semola bread will need to test whether the less wet levain will produce as good a loaf. Hard to imagine why it wouldn’t work if I shoot for the same 67% dough hydration.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

a 125% AP & 125% Rye along with my other two levains.  All for the fun of it.  About 2 years ago I stopped and now just primarily work off my 100% AP levain.  I converted those Hamelman formulae to 100% on my spreadsheet.  And I've never noticed a difference.

Here's dabrownman's take on it: LAB and yeast love high hydration so things happen much faster and pros love fast to shorten their baking schedules and it is so thin it won't rise much since the bubbles aren't trapped they just rise to the surface and break.

Benito's picture
Benito

Abe told me that the 125% levain promotes more lactic acid production for more of those notes in the final bread.  Honestly I wasn’t able to taste the difference when I’ve made this bread as directed or with a more standard for me 100% levain.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

High hydration promotes a strong lactic acid ferment. Stands to reason one would provide the ideal environment should this be the wanted outcome. Doesn't mean to say a 100% levain can't behave in a similar way. After all it is a liquid pre-ferment. In everything from the starter to levain to final dough all we're doing is giving the yeasts and bacteria the best chance to do their thing for a finished product were after. 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Been making a series of breads with Full Proof's (Kristen's) basic open crumb recipe and replacing the flour in the 20% slot with different flours.

Because of that, thought I'd made a bread that was 20% semolina to fit in with the challenge, but sticking to Full Proof's method, which uses 80% hydration!

The odd thing about this loaf is that my starter just didn't want to cooperate yesterday. It was a 25 deg. C day, but shaped it only after 9 hours and gave it another hour that day and 2 more hours before baking, overall 12 hours of fermentation! Also, the glossy crumb probably comes from the VWG that was included to increase the protein of the bread flour component to around 14.9%.

Semolina Full Proof Loaf

Semolina crumb

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Very nice looking bread! The crumb looks great, but I particularly love the colour of the crust and the score - opened up in a very cute way!

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Thanks Ilya, this was a room temperature score, didn't want to get too fancy

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

The crumb looks fantastic!

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Thanks Denisa, and just want to tell you how much I appreciate your professional videos.

Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely bake Jon.  Beautiful crumb and lovely work with applying the sesame seeds to the crust.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Youtube suggested this video with a surprising Italian recipe: white sourdough with a little semolina, and boiled potatoes! It's not super detailed, but I think enough to information to reproduce it, and I thought others might find it interesting too. I might try it at some point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLriqPTHhUM

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Indeed an interesting video. I also love the flour they use.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

This is my second attempt at a home-milled whole grain naturally leavened durum bread.  The crumb ended up being very similar to last time, but the flavor was much better.  The BF was very slow this time and I aimed for a 50% rise instead of the previous 30% followed by a 12-hour cold final proof.  I found a spot in the fridge slightly above 40F, and the dough was noticeably taller in the banneton before baking.  The flavor was really nice, and despite being a dense bread, has received the strongest reaction to any bread I have made so far.  There appears to be a "hydration cliff" at which point this whole-grain dough exhibits extreme extensibility and lacks any elasticity required for reasonable shaping. I first mentioned it in THIS DURUM BUBBLE GUM POST, although silly putty is probably a better description.  I tried to correct this with additional lengthy kneading, but my sense it is unrelated to gluten development, and no amount of kneading will reverse it.  I eventually lowered hydration by iteratively dusting in more durum flour until the dough could hold some tension again.  This occurs at a surprisingly low point slightly above 70%, although the dough itself could tolerate higher hydration if it weren't for this property.

details: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/482224#comment-482224

Note: After questions about color last time, I tried to capture this in a few different lighting scenarios and with additional color points to avoid color balance issues.  I think the lower left photo, taken under a combination of overhead lighting and indirect sunlight on an overcast day, is a good reference.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

before asking Floyd to unpin the CB and release it from the top of the Recent Comments.  As with all CB's they remain "active" in perpetuity, as we can readily see with all of the very recent Hamelman 5-Grain activity right now.  Then a week or three off before the posting of the next CB.

Thanks to all who have been active participants, and to those who merely enjoy tuning in here and there to see what is going on with our TFL compatriot bakers in the CB.  Don't let this dissuade anyone who cares to continue to participate.

And as always, my deep appreciation to Dan for making this a regular part of TFL.

Hey, isn't that Maurizio and what's-his-name?

Alan

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

Latest bake, a variation of my normal loaf based on Tom Cat's Semolina Filone. 

 

Total flour: 900g of which, 300g white unbleached all purpose in poolish and 600g semolina rimacinata in main dough

Total water: 600g of which, 300g in poolish and 300g in main dough

Total yeast: 5/8tsp, of which 1/8tsp in poolish and 1/2tsp in main dough

Total salt: 18g in main dough

 

Mix poolish, let rest overnight.  Mix main dough and combine with poolish.  Slap-fold for 5-10 minutes until smooth and elastic.  Bulk ferment in slightly warmed oven for 2 hours.  Form into a boule then into an oval shape.  Place on baking mat on baking sheet in microwave preheated with hot water.  Proof for one hour.   Bake at 500deg F for 35 minutes, then bake at 430deg F for 25 minutes until golden brown.  Cool on grate and slice when completely cooled to room temperature. 

This is my daily bread, usually eaten with breakfast and as a mid-day snack. 

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful even yellow crumb semolinaman, very nice.  I’m even more impressed by the fact that you have a healthy thriving poinsettia in late February.

Benny 

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

Another one for the thread.  My standard loaf, based on Tom Cat's Semolina Filone, the recipe I got started with on this site years ago. 

 

This loaf:

1/3 white unbleached all purpose, 100% of which was used in the poolish

1/3 semolina rimacinata

1/3 semolina, or semolina meal

62% hydration

2% salt

Approx 3/8 tsp total yeast

 

p.s. apologies for the photo orientation, Apple knows how it should be rotated. 

CandaceT's picture
CandaceT

Hello!  I've followed the forums here for a few years, but just made an account today to join the Community Bakes and hopefully improve my baking.  I've baked sourdough for 15+ years, but only delved into artisan style in the last 3 or so.  I still feel very "new."

This is my first try at a Community Bake and at a Semolina loaf.  I did the Hamelman version, but misread the formula while I was mixing and added an extra 110g water, which gave me a hydration around 85.5%!  Oops.  But it came out OK, and my family loved it!

The shaping is wobbly (not tight and round) near the bottom.  This is a common problem for me with higher hydration loaves.  My guess is that I need to shape more aggressively?  Thoughts on that would be helpful.  Thanks!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

your unique timing for this CB!  Which I just asked our TFL host Floyd to unpin days ago.  Nonetheless, these CBs live on in posterity, always ready for latecomers to add their wares, ask questions and provide answers.

As far as handling high-hydration doughs, here are three sources for you to review...

A new CB will be posted in a week or two, and we encourage you to join in then as well.

Alan

CandaceT's picture
CandaceT

Thanks for the video links.  I had seen the Tartine one, the others I had not seen.  I think I'm not degassing enough.  I don't want to undo the work the sourdough has done during bulk, but I think I need to be less timid about it. 

I did realize I was posting late, I had done the bake when it was first posted, but was hesitant to share in the group.  Maybe next time I'll be more timely with my post.

CandaceT's picture
CandaceT
CandaceT's picture
CandaceT

Turns out, it helps to read the FAQ...sorry for all the posts in a row, thanks for your patience! 

 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Details in my blog post.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Made another semolina loaf to bring to a bbq with friends. Simple recipe, 60% fine semolina, rest bread flour (and some rye flour from the starter in the levain). Formula: https://fgbc.dk/1ju2

Fermented the starter for around 6 hrs, nowhere near doubled, but the consistency seemed very soupy from the beginning (a lot of rye, and a lot of acidity, maybe), probably not capturing gas well.

Mixed everything, left for ~40 min to hydrate (semolina certainly needed it!), did some slap&folds for medium development, left in an oiled straight sided container at 28C.

~70% growth after 5 hrs:

Preshaped by folding similar to the pane cafone video recipe earlier, then shaped into a batard (the dough was a little more sticky than I wanted, might have been on the verge of overfermentation) and applied black and regular sesame seeds - one colour for each side of the loaf. Proofed in the fridge overnight - only around 9 hrs, was late and needed to bake in the morning so the bread cools before transporting. Baked in a preheated upturned pyrex casserole dish for steam around 15 min (260C), then until nice colour without cover (230C).



Nice and even crumb - probably could do with a longer final proof for slightly more openness, but I was very constrained by my schedule. Everyone loved the bread, and I was quite pleased too. Good bread that stands up to toppings, but with a mild flavour.

 

See all my semolina bakes here.

Benito's picture
Benito

Nicely done Ilya, it amazes me how strong semolina is and that it seems to stand up well to a lot of fermentation.  Creative application of seeds and scoring.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Benny! Indeed, it performs surprisingly well. I might have taken it just a little too far here, maybe 30 min too much in bulk - and an extra 30 min warm final proof could have opened up the crumb a touch. But still very pleased with the result. It had Italian vibes, and went great with salami and coppa.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nicely done. I'm hungry just looking at the spread. Tasty.

Cheers,

Gavin

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Gavin! It was indeed a very enjoyable meal, and a very welcome meeting with friends now that it's finally allowed here.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

March 31 - April 1, 2021.

Durum bake #9.  Bake #43 overall.

49% durum:  Fiber Wala & Golden Temple.  (plus BRM WW & KABF)

A bit under-hydrated.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67868/43rd-bake-04012001-75-ww-523-g-flour

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

April 26, 2021.

Durum bake #10. Bake #44 overall.

100% Patel stone-ground WW durum, + IDY.

Too much soak and fermentation -- too much sugar was made, and crust carmelized too much. Also a tad wet.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68069/44th-bake-04262021-100-stone-ground-ww-durum

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

May 1, 2021.

Durum bake #11.  Bake #45 overall.

Fail. Burned the bottom in the toaster oven. Inside under-baked.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68123/45th-bake-05012021-93-ww-sg-durum

The geese liked it.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

May 6 - 7, 2021.

87% Patel brand stone-ground WW durum, plus Arrowhead Mills organic AP.

Crust was a bit too stiff and leathery, but otherwise good. Neutral taste - good for eating with flavored oil/dip, or for sopping up soup or strew.

Patel SG WW durum is only $.40/pound. Just  $7.99 for a 20 pound bag.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68155/46th-bake-05072021-87-stoneground-ww-durum

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Had a hilarious collapse in bread machine, but it tasted great.

90% durum, 10% AP.  Hours soak with salt, and without yeast. Then added 1 tsp yeast.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68196/47h-bake-05112021-90-sgww-durum-ugly-tastes-great

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

A remake of the previous bake in the bread machine, with 1/2 the yeast. 90% stone ground WW durum, 10% AP, 1/2 tsp instant dry yeast. No soak this time.

Still had a slight collapse. But it came out good.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68228/48th-bake-05152021-bread-machine-90-ww-durum

Benito's picture
Benito

I hadn’t baked with semola rimacinata for quite some time and felt it was due.  I’ve been thinking that we seldom see semolina in enriched breads, at least I don’t recall seeing many, so I decided to try using it in a SD Hokkaido Milk Bread.  I can’t say that it disappointed me whatsoever.  The details of the bake are here in my blog post.

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