The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Community Bake - Semolina/Durum and similar grain breads

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Community Bake - Semolina/Durum and similar grain breads

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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic
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TFL Community Bakes are the result of CB founder Dan.  His own creation and nurturing, to interest and help others, and in turn be helped, as we all strive to improve our baking skills and widen our baking horizons.  Kudos to him for this lasting gift for us all.

For this CB I’d like to continue to focus on a grain rather than a specific bread style, as was the original focus in the previous Deli-Rye CB.  I love semolina based breads, having grown up a stone’s throw from a few Italian bakeries, and consider the sesame semolina bread to be a foundational food on my personal food pyramid!

 

Clarification.  I refer to semolina in a generic sense.  I really am referring to durum, the finely machined version known in Italian as semola rimacinata which carries a protein of ~12%.  Semolina is too coarse and hard a grain for typical bread baking.  But there are no holds barred here in our CBs, and if you wish to bake with it as I have, feel free to experiment with the least coarse of the grinds.  I reference two short descriptions here:

 This durum wheat flour is a double ground (rimacinata) flour with very soft and fine texture. Its signature yellowish tint and resistant elastic gluten make it ideal for all extruded pastas and breads, or wherever the characteristics of semolina are desired.

Semolina is coarsely ground durum wheat (grano duro, triticum durum - a varitey of wheat) and its often used to make pasta. When it's called semola rimacinata in Italian, it refers to semolina which has been re-milled to make it finer and more suitable for bread baking.

 When I refer to “bread flour” in the below descriptions, I am employing Mr. Hamelman’s usage.  He refers to bread flour as what we generally call an AP flour.  His point of reference is the King Arthur AP Flour which has a protein level of 11.7%.

 

Whether you have access to semolina or not, perhaps you can join with bakes of what I consider to be somewhat related grains.  I have never baked with the last four on the list below, and therefore cannot offer recommendations as to how they may work out.  Experienced ancient grain bakers on TFL should have a better understanding to offer during this CB.  You will be able to bake these breads with the first three grains listed, and may be able to do so with the final four grains.  Included in the list, but not exclusive, are:
  • Semola rimacinata: Extra finely milled Durum wheat
  • Durum Atta: Indian durum similar to semola rimacinata.  Atta may refer to more than one type of wheat, look for the ingredient that says Durum.  May also contain some whole grain.
  • Tritordeum: Hybrid grain of barley and durum developed these past few decades in Spain and available in some European markets.

I am offering five differing semolina based breads, all with some unique characteristic that makes each one different from its brethren.  However only three will appear in this CB posting.  These three will also appear in the Companion Blog along with two additional suggestions.  Taken as a whole, the five carry some combination of these characteristics:

  • Semolina percentages from 40% to 100%
  • Preferment hydration percentages from 50% to 125%
  • Overall hydration percentages from 65% to 78%

For each style of bread, I provide "in house” versions, highlighting the baking prowess of our own folk.  The reference links will take you to the original author’s TFL write up, and to my Companion Blog Post with each formula.  Each formula presented is my interpretation of the bread.

One more thing: Don’t let the shapes and sizes dictate how you wish to proceed.  Feel free to experiment with boules, batards (long and normal), baguettes, filones, ficelles, dinner rolls...

Semolina "Pain au Levain".  This Jeffrey Hamelman version has a 60/40 mix of semolina/bread flour, employs a 125% hydration bread flour levain, and carries an overall hydration of 67%.

1) One of TFL’s resident Kiwis, leslieruf offers her version.

2) My own take for one of my go-to breads, on this marvelous winning delight.

 

Tom Cat Semolina Filone.  Maggie Glezer’s version of this on again/off again occasional TFL favorite will challenge you due to its very high hydration.  I found this bread difficult to wrangle, but it makes some of the finest toast I’ve ever had.  55.5/45.5 semolina/bread flour, 130% hydration Poolish, 89% overall hydration.  

NOTE: Due to a misunderstanding of American English/Transcription error, the original Tom Cat formula that previously was posted below carried an absurdly high overall 89% hydration.  Thanks to an email conversation with Abe, it was determined that the Poolish was incorrectly stated.  The corrected version is now in its place, with an Poolish hydration of 90% and an overall hydration of 75%.  The 45/55 % or AP/Semolina still remains.

1) semolina_man baked a delightful version of this bread.  

2) As does dmsnyder, David's interpretation.

Pane di Altamura/Matera. These two neighboring towns, in the heel region of the Italian peninsula, produce rather uniquely shaped (or mis-shapen) breads.  

Altamura is 100% semolina including a 66% hydration biga, with a relatively low overall hydration of 65%.  

Matera is also 100% semolina including a 50% hydration levain / lievito madre with a 66% overall hydration.

EDIT.  Build 3 above should read 150g Sem., 75g Water.

1) Our own breadforfun’s Brad did a field trip to Altamura several years ago, and reports on his experience and bake.  

2) Baker anonymous, better known as Abe, offers us his version
The fine print...
As always, the CB occupies a corner of TFL.  Created as a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills.  By no means are the formulae provided meant to be the be-all-and-end-all of the CB.  Rather, they are a framework of distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria.  I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions.  And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers.  I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!
 And as our Community Bake founder Dan said:
All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants get active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.

Here is a list of our past CBs. 

They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.
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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.

Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB *For the original postings please click the links above.  My posting of the formula write-ups, click here.
gavinc's picture
gavinc

I was intrigued by this shaping. I think you did an admirable job, and the bread will be tasty.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the ugly duckling.  I tried it again today with much improved results, although if I were to do it again - questionable, I'd have another improvement in shaping to apply.   Posted.

Thanks, Alan

albacore's picture
albacore

please delete

meb21's picture
meb21

Here's my attempt - a first for baking with semolina (100%) leavened with 20% natural yeast. Details here on Fresh Loaf blog...

 

I must say there are some gorgeous loaves here! I'm anxious to cut mine and taste it - I'm expecting a tighter crumb, which is fine. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Sure looks great, nice to see all these 100% semolina bakes now.  Nice density of sesame seeds on the crust, nice ear and bloom as well.  Looking forward to the crumb next.

Benny 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Good shaping, scoring, bloom, seed cover, the three distinct colorations on the bloom.  Nice job for a virgin run!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Looks great and well done producing a loaf like that with 100% semolina. The sesame seeds at a wonderful nutty flavour.

I had a lot of trouble with 80% hydration, never got past a batter-like slurry.

Cheers,

Gavin.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)
HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

He makes it look so easy...

Benito's picture
Benito

I want to work there for a day or two to practice all of those shapes, wouldn’t that be fun?

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Brilliant!  Looks like he's done that before :)

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

And the person recording can't hold a camera properly. Doesn't help. However the one that looks the most impressive seems to be the easiest. Making small cuts all along the side of the stretched out dough then rolling it. Simple [he says ?] but effective. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

very inspiring, thanks Abe

Leslie

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

They start filming after he's shown them how to shape the u skuanète. 

Every video I watch seems to confirm the hydration of the dough averages at 65%. The natural yeast is of a similar hydration and forms 20% of the flour in bakers percentages. The salt is 2%. No autolyse or any fancy methods. 

For a dough with these specs it must be fermented very well with a perfect balance of elasticity and extensibility to be shaped like this. It is well fermented with very little final proofing. 

meb21's picture
meb21

This was fun to watch! Thanks for posting, Abe!

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Sure, I'll admit it. I will show you butt-ugly. I don't have anything to hide. I have no shame. I learned something. 

This bake was an abject failure. I can't blame the levain. It was beautiful! Just beautiful. Sublime even. To be honest, I've never experienced what a Real Man's levain could be.


This was so ripe. Sweet. Just at peak. And the aroma. Fruity. A little yeast. Just a hint of alcohol. And had a playful jiggle. I wanted to ask it out for drinks. I showed it to my wife instead. She wanted to go dancing with it.


The dough it made was just like its sister levain in aroma. I had this little tiger caged in a loaf pan and tied up in a plastic grocery bag. When I opened it up, a choir of angels lifted sweet incense as a cloud to fill the air. I was stunned to silence to sniff that baby.


Yeh. I proofed it. In the refrigerator just like the recipe said. Just like my last bake, I knew that dough had lots more to give me. I have NO idea what possessed me to cut the extra proof time that I added from my last bake.


The last time around, I gave it an extra 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there just warming up.

This time, I totally pushed this sweet dough right off the ledge. Tragically under-proofed. Why. WHY?


I was fooled by the levain. I thought it could work magic. Just by "being there," great bread would fall from the sky. The only thing that fell was the dough as I gave it a shove off that ledge.

And more's the pity.


I was fooled by that beautiful dough. It won't happen again. Once bitten, twice shy. But not me. Because I have no shame. I will show you butt-ugly. I won't keep it a secret. Because it happens. Often in the shadows.

But the failures come. The wise learn.

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hey Murph, you should have been a poet :). I'd be happy with that bake when I was first baking sourdoughs. One has to bake to be better. Great move forward!

Cheers,

Gavin

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thanks, Gav,

I totally saw this coming. And the funny thing? I was thinking of writing about how easy it is to fit a bake into a weekday schedule.

Gee, just yank it from the bulk fridge, quick pre-shape, shape... plop it into loaf pan... next day... quick warm-up and bake. Piece of cake, right?

El wrongo!

I knew that levain was good. I was bad. I betrayed it. Bald-facedly. That dough had more to give. I wrote to it. In sorrow.

That was 500g of a 1,000g dough. The other 500g will just sit in the fridge on the top shelf at about 5°C (41°F) until.a couple of mornings from now when I can do it justice.

Thank you for the encouragement. I am learning so much from you and your bakes. And others'. I can't thank you enough.

And thank you, Alan, for running these CBs and both Alan and DanAyo, the originator, for really encouraging novice bakers like me to jump into the pool and really learn something.

This is an amazing experience. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!

Murph

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Your script and photos don't match up.  You write failure and I don't see it. What are you talking about?  Are you just being sarcastic? 

The only teeny tiny tweek I can think of is dealing with a big gas bubble or two on the bottom of the loaf.  That looks like a pinched seam thing.  Next loaf (don't wait too long to make) just before pinching the bottom seam, pop any big bubbles you see and pinch shut to seal.  All that other crazy talk of failing is just rubish, you did good and repeat it.  Give yourself a hug and pat yourself on your back!  Time for a happy dance if you haven't already done so.  Take a waltz around the kitchen!  So happy for you!

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with Mini.  Your loaf is a huge success.  If my second loaf looked anywhere as good as yours did, I would have been doing a happy dance.  I can’t believe you achieved a good ear, on your SECOND loaf.  This is totally not a failure whatsoever.

I also agree with Mini, that bread is not underproofed. The crumb looks quite good.  Underproofed crumb would be very dense, this is not.  Those large holes are related to trapped air during development of the dough, preshaping and final shaping.  You’ll want to pop large bubbles that develop during the process.  During shaping, some gentle patting down of the dough can also reduce those large bubbles which aren’t fermentation gases.

You should be extremely happy with that loaf.  I don’t want to hear any sadness about it, amazing second loaf.

Benny

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Wait. What? 

I was so going to pitch this. Wasn't going to dull my new knife on it.

I just dropped my wife off to work. I have to get back to sleep. It's going to be a tight day today. Tomorrow, forget about it. Might as well shoot me.

I'll give it a taste later today just for you, Mini Oven. I haven't looked at it through your eyes. It IS bread after all...

Murph

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

but your post bake analysis besides being a little overwrought may need some retooling. The proof is fine and is not the issue here. What is your oven setup? Are you baking in a DO or on a stone or steel? It looks to me that you are getting a lot of heat and expansion on the bottom. You may need to raise the oven rack. Did you see bubbles on the dough before inverting it and baking it? At any rate most people around here would be more than satisfied with your results so chin up and carry on.

Don

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Mini cost me 30 minutes of sleep! :) Heh!  I couldn't get back to sleep thinking of that darned seam...

Ok... let's look at this... I hope this note falls at the bottom of all your help. Thank you!

I never thought of the seam part. Never thought of it! I did NOT pinch the internal seams closed. I remember wondering about that during pre-shape. Incredibly good eye, Mini!! Yikes!

Here's the bottom...

I see the seam! Hello? Mini?

Someone asked about the oven setup. Interesting observation! 

I forgot to pre-heat my ~9 millimeter (3/8 inch) baking stone. Since I always burn the bottom of my loaves, I decided to load that cold stone in with the dough and pre-heated to 249°C (480°F) Dutch oven.

The stone is always under the DO just one rack away. The oven is turned down to 232°C (440°C) for the 18 minute bake (cover on), 15 minutes, cover off.

No burning. I was happy about that.

Somebody else mentioned absorption. Idaveindy? That thought never crossed my mind. That's a thing, huh?

Hmmm...

I did slice it. With my new knife. Man, that thing sure can cut some bread! Glad I bought it! ~18 bucks and worth every penny!

The chew was tough. I had to pull the bite off the slice with my teeth. I hate that. The crust softened overnight sitting in the plastic grocery bag.

Wow! I sure got some tang out of that! :)

My first bake didn't have much in the way of flavor. It was pleasant. Creamy. An easy bite. It usually ages well and takes on more flavor of some sort.

This bake has tang right out of the gate. Well.. at least a day later. But I do hate that tough chew. The knife helps cut thinner slices to make a useful sandwich out of.

I can't believe your analysis!!!!!! How do you come to know so much?? And be so accurate? Amazing... Just amazing.

This baked to 100.5°C (213°F) internal. I would have liked to take more water out of the crumb to bring the chew factor down or get more fluffy. 

Shuffling off... Incredible minds... knowledgeable people here...

Murph

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Edit to add crumb shot .

After yesterday's flawed post-shaping, pre-bake scoring mishap I decided to give it one more try.  I'd made just enough 50% hydration levain for another bake, and didn't bother with another build or refresh.  With virtually no change to the process* I'm now waiting the few hours until I can cut into it, although I still don't understand how the folding, which never saw the top and bottom melded together, can ever incorporate into a single cohesive crumb structure.  

* I eliminated the final fold after the two hr retard, opting to leave the dough undisturbed for the entire retard time.  Allowed the oven to steam without venting after the first 15 minutes, opting for a full 30 minute steam cycle.

The two photos, taken mere seconds apart in the same location display distinctly different hues on the crust.  The browner of the two is the more accurate, although a richer deep brown and less yellow than the photo displays.

1290g x 1 corneto

Edit,

Well, this is a big improvement over yesterday's bake, and although I recognized another shaping flaw - the lower half of the bread should be large than the upper half, I can't express too much disappointment.  Perhaps a softer more open crumb.  But overall the feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment made the effort worth it.

The bread was baked the recommended time allowance for the total dough amount and at the recommended temperatures.  Considering that I gave the bread 6 hours, more than the recommended amount to cool and dry out, I was surprised to feel a still moist crumb.

In all likelihood this will be my final bake of this bread.  More to check it off my list and for curiosity rather than any great desire to add it to my now considerable stable of breads, I am certainly not sorry that I baked it, as the process was rather edifying.

meb21's picture
meb21

Beautiful result! The art of bread making is definitely in full force here :)  I would love to try some different shaping techniques as you and Abe have inspired me...

I'm curios, how does this affect the crumb - does it result in a more consistent crumb? 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

yesterday being my maiden voyage, and with next to zero experience at the extreme upper end of semolina percentages.  Yesterday's bake yielded an extremely unsightly tight crumb, and nothing that I'd want to subject a 3rd party's teeth and gullet to.  It will still be a few hours before I crack this one open, so here's hoping the crumb will be an improvement, although I'm certain that Lance's (albacore) crumb will win the "ain't she a beauty" contest hands down.

thanks, Alan 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

It looks like a beautiful mahogany brown butterfly.  Marvelous Alan, I’m sure you’re happier with this iteration than the first?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

dividends in my comfort at handling and decision making, especially the added confidence at shaping time.

The shape looks like a tripped-out version of a UFO, waiting for 8 legged spider-people to emerge from the central hatchway.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Is a new word that I have learned because it has been used to explain the conspiracy theories behind recent events in the news. Looking at something like wallpaper or clouds and seeing patterns and shapes where none exist. Bearclaw, butterfly, crab spaceship I see them all but I got nothing to add that is fit to print. However I would like to know if you rolled up your sleeves and brought the forearm down on that bad boy like the sweater lady did in the video.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

All low but I got it.  I don't employ various body parts, extremities or other unprintable regions during this thing we do.  Strictly the "karate chop" part of my hand.  I did have to remove my Bernie Mittens for the shaping.

Klaatu Barada Nikto, baby!

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The sliced bread looks like a pair of mittens with nice holes in them. I had to use google  to find “The Day the Earth Stood Still “ reference so no prize for me.

Benito's picture
Benito

How did Alan get a pair of Bernie’s mittens?  I thought they were sold out.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Bernies mittens

Benito's picture
Benito

Oh goodness poor Bernie, the demand for those mitts finally got the best of him.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Nice shaping. My breads can do that too. I actually prefer most of them in their true colour but for some reason the light can alter somewhat when photographing. Usually have to try a few angles for the light before I settle on what is the most natural. Then again I don't use the best camera. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the camera was adjunct to the cellphone, but now it has somewhat reversed, and the phone capability is almost an afterthought and appendage to the little devils.  We don't see cell phones touted for their calling capabilities, it's all the other things these micro computers can do that are pushed to sell the product.  So surprising that two consecutive shots can yield such differing color saturation.

I think that you are looking forward to the crumb more than me!  After yesterday I have a bit of trepidation in advance of that first slice, which will also determine whether I want our regular "customer" to get a half of this beast, or best to spare them the agony.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Marvelous work, as always. You set the bar high. Anxious to see the crumb.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

actually a long list of others around these parts who have either put the time in service or fast-tracked to set high bars as well.   These threads and CBs serve as a symbiotic Petri dish of bakers, skilled or just learning the ropes, that make our discovery of TFL a special find.

I'd hold off on the marvelous part until that first slice is revealed ;-)

Alan

gavinc's picture
gavinc

A nice step up from the last. A work of art! Very unique.

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Very typical of Pane di Matera. I like the way the crumb is continuous with no fold apparent from the interior. A good crust with a soft and not too open crumb. Airy enough to not be dense but not too holey to take away from that creamy texture. Very nice... and I was right to be looking forward to this ?

Benito's picture
Benito

The crumb doesn’t disappoint.  Looks perfect for this style of rustic bread, great bake Alan.  It is now checked off your list, what next?

isand66's picture
isand66

If you look at this quickly it kind of looks like that cute Alien ET :).

I am very intrigued by this shaping and process.  Looks like your second go around was much improved in all respects.  Always fun to experiment with different shaping and baking techniques.

Ian

alfanso's picture
alfanso

posted his pane di Altamura after his trip to the city it created a little chain reaction on TFL, and a cadre of folks were getting their altamura on, including me.  With this neighboring city also having a quite unique form,I figured it was time to combine the two as one entry.  Didn't realize I'd be baking it until Lance put up he's version, and I knew I had to get on the stick.  Clearly the most unique bread form I'd made, miles ahead of whatever is #2.  And as you know, we share that love of semolina breads, but a pure 100% is really not as satisfying as a 60/40 Sem/AP mix to me.

Maybe its the grown up version of playing with our food!

Thanks, Alan

albacore's picture
albacore

Well yours is certainly a drama queen compared to mine Alan! Well done for taking up the Matera baton and persevering to a much more successful bake #2.

 

Lance

meb21's picture
meb21

Your breads are all so beautiful and I'm loving this thread, especially since I've had semolina bread on my list for a while. The truth is that I started with baking Chad Robertson's tartine, and as you might imagine, when you start with a loaf like that, for some there is little desire to bake other things!! But I am finally exploring other things :)

@alfonso, thank you so so much for coordinated and managing this CB. I am a bit unfamiliar with how things work but I think i'm getting the hang of it. I continue to learn and grow as a baker, as that's a goal of mine. 

Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and results!

For those who asked, here is a crumb shot along with loaf shot (later posted previously). Specs/details on my Fresh loaf blog if interested. Just a standard bake, didn't follow a formula posted above, although I probably should have branched out a bit. 

I was multitasking as usual and so my coil folds and FFs were probably not timed optimally but real life always gets in the way of my bakes LOL - all good though because I keep going and we keep eating. I did have trouble shaping this one because the dough was definitely still a bit slack. Interestingly, the crumb in the center of the loaf is quite even and small with somewhat more of an open crumb on the end, shown here - not sure what caused that but I'm guessing degassing during shaping. 

The crumb was quite custardy which was a surprise! Is that typical of semolina? 

Benito's picture
Benito

Now that I've seen the crumb I can safely say that both crust and crumb are beautiful.  You've done really well with your semolina bake.  May I ask how you're applying the seeds to your dough?

Benny

meb21's picture
meb21

Hi Benny, I’m not sure if it’s the best method, but I lightly misted the top of the loaf with water and then placed it into a dish of sesame seeds and it seemed to work well...

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks meb, similar to what I did for my second bake. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Very nice indeed. From crust to crumb. A soft creamy texture is what's desired from a durum flour bread. I'd be very happy with that. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Thanks for the updated crumb photo. It looks great to me. The larger holes on the ends I have always guessed to be caused by flow. The Tartine loaves are shaped shorter than the basket to allow the high hydration loaves to flow. I have found this dough to be very supple if given enough water and more likely to spread or flatten. I have also found the crumb to be very soft but the crust more substantial. 

Welcome to the CB club

Don

alfanso's picture
alfanso

DanAyo is the creator and driving force behind the CBs.  Some early TFLers may have fostered a few limited mini CB types of all-join-in party, but Dan created a true corner within the TFL website.  I'm merely the current custodian of the CBs.  Dan asking if I'd take over "for a while".  The general concept is the same, and with each new "management company" coming in, a few minor housekeeping changes are inevitable.  But the strong bones and structure of the CB were well established by Dan from Day 1, with tweaks as each one came and went.

You may have noticed that I placed a link to your blog at the top.  If you wish to be a "repeat offender" on this CB, I suggest that you continue to add to that blog, even placing a link back to your blog for each of your CB bakes on this general CB thread.

What I really like about this CB is uncovering the folks who have stepped forward with an interest in semolina type grains and hopefully helping to foster their bakes and posts.  We all prosper from these CBs.  Thanks for your interest and participation (psst, tell your friends ;-) ).  

Your bake has a lovely crumb, and I think that your description of "custardy" is fairly accurate.

Alan 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

  • Wholegrain Einkorn Flour 620g
  • Water 434g
  • Salt 12g
  • Einkorn Starter @ 100% hydration 6g (ish)
  1. Mix the salt into the flour; make a well.
  2. Add the starter then water and combine to form a no knead dough.
  3. Bulk ferment for 12-14 hours until well risen, about tripled, with a very spongy texture.
  4. Portion out into prepared loaf pan and final proof till ready; about 1.5-2 hours. 
  5. Bake.

A delicious loaf which you can taste the high mineral content. Slight tang but more of a sweet smoked flavour. Very interesting! Will suit a deli sandwich. 

Improvements for next time: I think it can be just as tasty or do better with less salt. Everything else I'd keep the same but drop it to something more akin to the salt content in rye. This bread has a strong flavour and doesn't need so much salt. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Very nice crumb Abe, somewhat like a 100% rye loaf in some ways.  I still haven’t tried making a 100% einkorn anything to taste it on its own.  I still have to make that pancake I think you recommended I try making to taste it.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Quite right! A wheat flour that likes to be handled like rye. 70% hydration is the sweet spot for a 100% wholegrain rye. It needs a long ferment for the einkorn to fully absorb the water. Quick einkorn recipes just aren't as well turned out. It's a strongly flavoured flour due to the high mineral content but very pleasant and will suit meats. Can't remember advising to make a pancake with it. That sounds like Mini to me. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Ah if not you then it may have been Dave.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

really like the crumb structure.  Aside from the amount of time for the grain to absorb water, something that Mini was commenting on just this morning, do you find that einkorn takes more or less water than other grains - like semolina?

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Actually surprised myself a little. Well this was 70% hydration using 100% wholegrain einkorn and it produces a no knead consistency dough like an 80-90% hydration rye. Something happens to the texture of the einkorn 'dough' after a very long ferment. It's very sponge like and you can't handle it but it's very easy to portion out into a loaf pan without the need for much smoothing over like a rye bread. It doesn't stick much or need scraping off the spoon either. Difficult to explain but you can see the difference when given the time it needs. Shorter quick rise einkorn recipes just don't have this same effect and they tend to be more gummy. The taste is strong but pleasantly so. Quite long lingering after taste. It would definitely need a topping to match and that's why I'm thinking deli. 

Thank you Alan. 

Disclaimer... I'm using a locally grown einkorn so all my comments and observations are purely for this flour. I believe in the US you have Jovial and how much they compare I don't know. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Was this like dough when you portioned into the pan or batter-like?  It almost sounds like how you'd prepare a batter loaf.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Not quite a batter as it can't be poured in any way. It's like a sponge that has a curious property of knitting together cleanly. So I took spoonfuls and added them to the pan and whereas with rye you'd need to smooth it over and it's still quite sticky this goes back together with less fuss. It starts off exactly like rye but by the time the gluten is fully formed and the flour hydrated it has the property of a sponge and yet of wet sand too. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Beautiful!

Einkorn starter 6g.   What's that starter to flour ratio?  One to a hundred?  (Will it raise durum?)

About 70% hydration.  Temp?  

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Yes, the starter is about 1%. The total hydration is 70%. I wouldn't like to comment about adding durum as I haven't mixed the two before. However I have learned a lot more about einkorn from this bake alone. I'd also, for 100% einkorn, drop the salt percentage. Even go down to 1.6% for my next trial. Often wondered why some flours, like rye, have much less salt and I've finally understood. This is a strong flour with a lot of minerals so less salt will compliment it better. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I decided to make a 100% golden semolina (Grieß in German) loaf first.  66% hydration. Saltolyse. :)

Loaf # One. Started off with an overnight soak 22°C.  Basic: 500 durum semolina, 8g salt stirred into the flour, and 330g water.  The water sunk immediately to the bottom of the container like it was sand (and it felt like wet sand, next time I dissolve the salt into the water). snapped the cover on and pushed it aside to soak. Yesterday I poked it after about 12 hours and thought it had soaked evenly and turned into a rough doughy mass, just needs a slight kneading to pull it all together.  But I didn't have time so snapped the lid back down.

Time went on and by evening still no time to play.   So after soaking a total of 24 hours, I put it into my 6°C refrigerator overnight to play with it today.  Plopped it out onto clean countertop and spread out the soft lumps to about the size of a dinner plate. Crumbled 21g of fresh yeast over the top and sprinkled on a teaspoon or two of maple sugar flakes.  Waited a minute then rolled up the dough to let the yeast and sugar dissolve.  After 5 minutes did a light kneading with to distribute the yeast and shaped into a ball, bulk rise to double.  Divided into 8 balls 7 100g each with one larger one for the middle of my crown.  It's in the oven and almost done.

Done but not risen as high as I expected.  Photos to follow.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

In my experience durum (semolina or flour) degrades relatively quickly. You managed to get a very long soak out of it and the resulting loaf looks very good! Looking forward to the crumb shot. 

Perhaps you used less than fine semolina which helped with the long soaking. And of course the long soaking helped too.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and I wouldn't recommend a 36 hr soak, 12 is more than enough.  The crust is very hard and the crumb is nice, not compact but still reminds me of grits without being gritty, if that makes sense.  The dough was starting to show signs of degradation while putting the Corona together.  I prayed during the final rise.  I've noticed that the successful recipes using this type of semolina are steamed or boiled doughs, not necessarily baked.  

I am still wondering what a semolina/einkorn dough would do.  If there was a bread I'd throw into a bread pudding (with apples and raisins) it would be the one above, just to soften the crust.  Flavour is good, but flavourful crust hard on the teeth.  Will bag it and see if it softens.  It's not even 2" high, so cute!  Now I have something to compare w/a durum/einkorn bake.

Edit: retake of the crumb shot 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Very creative Mini, love the corona shaping.  For sure that was a long autolyse at least it had the salt it in and you kept it cold.  Nice even crumb.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

overnight in a bag. Half of it disappeared too.  Hubby was up for a midnight sandwich.  "Was the crust hard?"  "Yup, but it was tasty."   

Moisture moved to the crust leaving the bread slightly dryer in the middle.  

Tonight put together einkorn/golden semolina slow overnight bulk rise. pretty much Abe's measurements reducing slightly the water and salt.  Dough didn't act like wet sand this time, had to stir to moisten flours. Very yellow dough.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

And I can understand what you mean by grits without being gritty. Fine semolina one can get away with ending up with a comparable bake to durum flour but coarse semolina may not get that kind of crumb. Boiling or steaming may serve to further break it down. 

I've been thinking about your semolina and einkorn combo and I think it might work well. My einkorn is string flavoured. Not for everyone. The high mineral content in this flour can't be missed which I'm thinking the long ferment enhances more so. However one needs a long ferment to bring the best out of this flour when it comes to texture. With semolina being a more gentle sweet grain it might compliment the einkorn and tame it a bit. 

I'm also thinking that a long autolyse for a 100% einkorn dough then a high percentage of starter for a shorter ferment might also be an avenue worth exploring. So one gets the best of both worlds. Perhaps a saltolyse might work here too. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven
Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely looking crumb Mini, are you happy with this bake?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the kitchen adventure waiting for the newly resurrected einkorn starter to "get its yeast on" but the long wait was informative.  When I worked IDY into the dough after 20 hours to speed it along before it got too sour from the sd bacteria, surprise!  The dough was actually a pleasure to work.  The taste is a step down from intense flavour of pure einkorn bread but einkorn is still quite lovely and dominant.  I used Abe's recipe for his beautiful full einkorn loaf, adjusting the hydration down to 66% for the portion of semolina and lowering the salt to 10g. 

The einkorn seemed to slow the breaking down of the semolina matrix, not unlike the way sifted wheat flour can slow rye matrix deterioration all resulting in longer wet/working times with the dough.  I would like to work toward a softer crumb although this crumb is moist and can hold up to just about any topping by itself, open face.  The crust is not the tooth breaker like my pure semolina loaf.  More details on my blog within a few days. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

With just butter and my not so thrilled about bread dog has been hanging around this loaf and slices drooling for tidbits.  :)   ?

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Speaking of soaking...

I retarded a dough for 5.5 days and baked a pancake. The place smells of alcohol. Which is not a bad smell, by the way. Not quite fingernail polish. Alcohol.

This was the other half of a dough from last week. The one I shoved off the ledge.

I have GOT to get timing down. :)

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

That must be some sort of record Murph, 5.5 days of cold retard.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Deleted 

isand66's picture
isand66

 

 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67243/community-bake-durum-bread

As many of you may know I have posted many breads with Durum flour.  This one only has around 40% Durum but since it uses fresh milled flour you really taste it.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

until you hoped on board and I was wondering what the delay was!  These both look pretty nice and your laundry list of ingredients seems to have been pared down the just the essentials.  When I look at the more rectangular, upper one I see a blimp with the scrolling ads on its side.  

Alan.

isand66's picture
isand66

I had to wait until my delivery of durum berries arrived!  I didn’t want to get too crazy for this one but it did take all of my willpower to resist adding another 10 ingredients ?

Benito's picture
Benito

Nice pair of semolina loaves Ian, and even better with both black and white sesame seeds, yumm.

Benny

isand66's picture
isand66

I knew you would like the multicolored sesame seeds.  Glad you like the bake.  

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Great idea to put the seeds in the banneton so they march in a line. I am going to look for semolina berries for my mill just to see how they taste when milled fresh.

isand66's picture
isand66

If you are a Amazon Prime member you can get them at a reasonable price.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nice bake. The loaves look very inviting and I love the mixed sesame seeds. 

isand66's picture
isand66

Glad you like it.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Looking for advice regarding fine semolina I got, and whether it's useful for bread baking.

I went (well, cycled) to the Indo-Pak grocery shop yesterday hoping to get some durum atta flour. Unfortunately, no bags of flour they had, had the word "durum" on it, and moreover the people working in the shop had never heard that word before, and even after googling they couldn't really help me whether any of their atta flour was indeed durum, or it contained any durum.

During the explanation of what durum us, I mentioned that semolina is made from durum, so they suggested I try fine semolina. And the one particular brand they suggested they described as very "floury". The way it was packaged I couldn't really tell just how fine it was, but it was clear to me it was still not flour. And interestingly, it didn't really have the golden colour semolina typically has, and looked like it had bran in it. So I thought maybe it was wholemeal, and that was masking the colour? I still bought it just to see what it is.

So now I put a little of this "fine semolina" next to my regular supermarket semolina (on the left, it is actually pretty fine!), and some bread flour that I always use (on the right - and it some has specks of bran, that is normal for this brand). So I am now wondering what people think about this.

It looks to me like this Indian semolina is less fine than British brand I have already. And it's definitely much less yellow. At the same time, when I had semola remacinata it also appeared far less yellow than semolina.

Which of the two would be better for baking bread? Should I use it in an overnight perferment or saltolyse to properly hydrate the "flour"?

albacore's picture
albacore

I feel for your confusion, Ilya. I too have searched for durum semolina via the Asian shop/Atta route.

I was hoping that there might be durum chapatti flour (or atta) available that could be sifted to produce semola. This is not the case. I have come to the conclusion that there is no durum atta in the UK - probably not in India either. I believe that this is a product unique to the USA (not sure why) - and used by TFL members, notably idaveindy. I even checked with big UK producer Elephant Atta and none of their chapatti flour is durum.

However Asian shops do sell semolina, which comes in fine and coarse versions. The ones I have bought did look similar in colour to what you buy from UK supermarkets, eg the Marshalls brand and I am pretty sure they are durum, but the one you are showing, less so.

And now it gets more confusing: I recently bought some organic semolina from Shipton Mill intending to remill it in my Mockmill, but it wasn't very yellow so I checked with Shipton Mill and they said it wasn't durum! The problem is that semolina is simply an intermediate product in the roller milling process. I'm not sure what the point of selling it is, though. Gilchesters sell a similar product, but probably more wholemeal.

In conclusion, I would say to use the yellow product. Remill it if you can or give a very long low temp saltolyse. I think Pul on TFL made good bread with semolina.

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Is 'grit' and it can refer to any grain ground coarsely. Although it's usually taken to mean durum semolina but always check first. TBH if you can find fine semolina (of the durum kind and it's readily available) then that can be used in place of durum flour albeit with lower hydration. Durum flour or Semola Rimacinata is easily available in Italian stores. 

And considering traditional Italian recipes using Semola Rimacinata are low hydration, yet people are taking it to 80% for some reason, then using fine semolina at the correct hydration called for in Italian recipes is no problem.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks a lot Abe, that is really confusing, and finally we got to the bottom of that, I hope! I'll try my regular semolina in a low hydration slow fermenting recipe then.

The one Italian deli I know that has semola remacinata where I got it before is unfortunately temporarily closed due to the lockdown.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

 

  • 500g fine semolina (or durum flour)
  • 300g - 325g water 
  • 10g salt 
  • 100g low hydration starter (LM or Old Dough)

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

OK, thanks again! I guess I'm creating a stiff starter offshoot - again :)

Would you make dough with only fine semolina, not real durum flour, without adding bread flour? That also seems like quite a high inoculation, might not allow enough rising time to let it properly develop, if it's not real flour. Do you think that would work still?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks a lot for the insight Lance. If I could simply grind semolina I would do that, but unfortunately I don't have a mill.

None of the chapatti flours looked golden. All the other brands of semolina looked like the British one, either fine or coarse (I think the fine ones were less fine than this though). Just this brand looked like this. I just thought maybe if it's some kind of "whole grain" semolina maybe it wouldn't be obviously yellow?

That is so confusing, I thought semolina had to come from durum! Although I also know that semolina I've seen in Russia was not yellow, but I assumed something was just lost in translation... But now it all starts to make sense.

Thanks a lot again. Wish everything was more clearly labelled and simpler, but I guess milling is such an ancient traditional process, a lot of historical things persist.

Benito's picture
Benito

The Semola rimacinata that I have is the colour of your semolina just milled more finely.  The Durum Atta is also available in Canada, widely available actually at quite a few supermarkets in Toronto downtown.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Nor autolyse. Traditional Italian recipes do non of that. Just build a leivito madre or old dough pre-ferment then go straight into the final dough. Don't overwork a semolina (or durum flour) dough as it'll breakdown easily. Just concentrate inverting the fermentation right. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Right, thanks Abe. I was thinking to build a preferment with the semolina overnight directly from my usual rye starter. You think it should be low hydration? Like biga?

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Just written out a typical recipe for you. A few builds of a low hydration starter to build up strength should do it. Form the dough and knead till done then bulk ferment. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

As per the formula written for the bakers ratio. The starter however while there are guidelines I haven't seen exact builds and maintenance. However they are low hydration and fed at least 3 times 3-4 hours apart before using. Without knowing the exact formula I'm guessing LM style. It is difficult to get 3 feeds in unless you're a baker getting up at 4am. So why not the first build overnight to convert then 2 feeds the day of? Something like this...

  • Night before: build a 50% hydration off shoot LM. 
  • Day of: two feeds 3-4 hours apart of 1:0.5:1 (should be ready to feed again in 3-4 hours and tripled in size). 
  • After the second feed has matured then onto the final dough. 

But then again that is just one interpretation. You could also build an old dough of something like...

  • 12g starter 
  • 36g water
  • 60g flour 
  • 1.2g salt

Allow that to mature and refrigerate then the next day use 100g in the final dough. Just two ideas. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Abe. I just built a tiny stiff offshoot, also incorporated those small flour samples I pictured earlier so as not to waste them :)

I've never tried using old dough (on purpose). I might combine the ideas!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The is what I did to build the 50% hydration levain for the pane di Matera.  The 3rd build took three hours to double and done in my warm-side kitchen.

  • Build 1 - 25g AP, 54g Sem., 21g Water
  • Build 2: 100g (all Bld1), 50g Sem., 25g Water
  • Build 3: 175g (all Bld2), 150g Sem.,75g Water

Build 1 will get you from a 100% hydration starter to a 50% hydration levain.  Builds 2 & 3 will strengthen the levain as it builds up volume.  Since I'm using the durum atta I can only testify that this was a very successful endeavor.  I think the first build was in the neighborhood of 6 or 7 hrs. Same for build #2, Build #3 was the defining 3 hr affair.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Uses a 50% hydration starter and does two builds before going onto the final dough in a very similar approach to a LM build and prepping a starter for durum breads. This bread has a lovely flavour due to the technique, a mix of flours and a long final proof in the fridge. Well worth trying. 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/479725#comment-479725

Benito's picture
Benito

This is my second bake of this black and white sesame seed crusted 100% semolina sourdough bread.  The changes I made this time were all related to the application of seeds and the bulk fermentation to make that application easier.  I bulk fermented until the aliquot jar showed 50% rise.  At that point I went to final shaping.  Once shaped I brushed the dough with water.  I had my 9x13” pan filled with the sesame seeds pushed to the sides.  I transferred my dough to the center of the pan and then spread and dropped and brushed the seeds on ensuring a de nse application of seeds.  I was then able to flip the seeded dough onto my hand and then transfer it seam side up into the banneton.  Although the dough was handled more than when not seeding the dough, I felt it degassed much less than the first time.  I then allowed another hour of bench rest wairing until  the aliquot jar showed a 70% rise.  The dough was then placed in a 4ºF fridge for 24 hours cold retard.

Baking followed my new procedure with the aim to have a thinner crust and bottom as above. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Do think you hit the target on the thinner crust and bottom?

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Troy.  I won’t know until I slice this, but i has worked on my other breads I’ve baked with that strategy.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

That's so beautiful Benny, love the shape of your score too! Looking forward to the crumb shot!

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Ilya, I’ll slice it tomorrow and post the crumb photos then.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

A wonderfully inviting loaf with good colour. I think you can be confident in the crumb outcome. Keep us posted.

Cheers,

Gavin

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

Those pics a bit like that first Star Trek movie where they spent 10 minutes circling the Enterprise. So how dId that gorgeous golden loaf taste? Suspense is killing me...

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ll be able to tell you tomorrow when I slice it at lunch!

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

With the golden crumb appearing through the sesame encrusted crust. Looks very inviting Benny. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Abe I quite like how it looks. Hopefully the crumb won’t disappoint. 

isand66's picture
isand66

Awesome bake.  Glad your seeds turned out so well.  

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Ian.

Happy Baking, nice to see you joining the CB.

Benny 

meb21's picture
meb21

A beautiful loaf!! I was just reading about the aliquot idea on Instagram today...love the idea, I must try!

My question though is since we are not folding and strengthening the aliquot dough (and possibly degassing it a bit?)-  does it truly correlate with the bulk rise of the main dough? 

Benito's picture
Benito

The aliquot jar overestimates the rise of the dough for exactly the reasons you mention.  I always try in my formulas to state 60% rise of the aliquot jar and not 60% rise of the dough.  However, with use overtime you definitely get a feel for the dough and learn to better identify when the dough is adequately fermented.  Here’s my article with video describing how I use an aliquot jar.  Although I have learned to see and feel what well fermented dough looks and feels like, there are still many instances when that doesn’t easily apply.  For example, if you make breads with many inclusions such as fruit or nuts to a high percentage.  Those inclusions at high percentage such as 20% each, will greatly affect the feel and look of the dough and that does make it harder to know when bulk is complete.  With the aliquot jar you have an objective measure of the rise of the dough without those inclusions and thus a good idea about its degree of fermentation.  Also, when repeating a bake as I just have, you can make adjustments to your bulk to try to achieve certain goals with your bread.  So for my recent bake I wanted the dough more firm at the end of bulk so I shaped earlier.  Then keeping the aliquot jar going longer allowed me to know when I wanted to stop bench final proof and go into a cold retard.  Anyhow, I have found it super useful and it has really helped my baking improve in a big way in the past several months that I have been using it.  

Benny

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m very pleased with the crumb.  It is surprisingly custardy considering how relatively course the flour feels relative to most I’m used to working with.  I think I could have left it longer post shaping on the bench maybe wait for cold retard until 80% rise in the aliquot jar.  That being said, I’m not disappointed.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Amazing crumb Benny, just perfect!

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you kindly Ilya, that is very generous of you.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm coming over with a BIG cheese plate!   Wine?  Ok, will grab some bottles too!  Yay!  

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Mini, you don’t need to bring anything, I have cheese and wine here.  Now you’ll need to open to trying our local Ontario wine which are actually outstanding, but many people haven’t tried out wines before and think we can only make ice wine.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

human home baking population.  No one should be allowed to progress as quickly and so skilled as you.  My advice is to stop right now, because you're making the rest of us look plain silly.  There must be a cave without an oven that you can return to and live the troglodyte life again.

Your snail's eye view displays a marvelous and lovely gelatinized crumb.  One of my personal hallmarks of success is consistency from bake to bake.  Well, here it is.

Benito's picture
Benito

That is quite the compliment coming from you Alan, thank you very much.  Honestly, I sometimes think that baking those darned baguettes and not giving up taught me more about baking bread during those months than all the rest of the time I was trying to bake bread.

With these two bakes I wanted to see what can be done with semolina that isn’t traditional lower hydration.  I was trying for a more open crumb yet still getting that lovely semolina flavour and seeing if a custard like crumb was possible.  In fact it all is.  I just remember Michael Wilson writing sometime back that you have to fully develop the gluten early on with semolina.  So I took that advice to heart.  The crumb on his bake was still more open, but this is the style of open crumb I like, not crazy open where you’d lose your wetter toppings.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I'll just take the "thank you very much".  Don't take it personally, but please leave out the "coming from you" part, which I've seen here and there directed at me recently by a few TFL compatriots.  

Truly, my opinion and analysis carries no more gravity than anyone else's, and way way less than from someone on top of the mountain - like a Mr. Hamelman, et al.

As with you and a fat handful of others on TFL, we are plain folk who just "figured it out" a little better than some, less so than others.  So while I appreciate the nice compliment, I really do think that it is misplaced.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Bruschetta. Lovely indeed! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Abe, yes it would make a great bruschetta now if we only had some really ripe sweet tomatoes around this time of year I’d make some.  But alas, only hothouse tomatoes this time of year, not bad but not wonderful either.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

and the crumb is perfect!  your bakes have just got better and better.

Leslie

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks so much Leslie, I really appreciate your comments.

Happy Baking.

Benny

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Not much to say except: Amazing.

–AG

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you AG, much appreciated.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

You have raised the bar so high that the rest of us will have to be content to just walk under it.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Don, but that’s hardly the case.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

a little hyperbole and not meant to diminish the other outstanding bakes here of which there are many. So nice job keep up the good work.

Don

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Great outcome. Looks amazing.

Cheers,

Gavin.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Gavin, cheers.

Benny

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Looks fantastic!  Very glad to hear it came out like you wanted. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Troy, I can always think of something to change, but I am quite pleased with this bake.

frodobakes's picture
frodobakes

Hi! First time posting here, and I'm really thankful for the great recipes and advice on this site. This is my attempt at Hamelman's Semolina recipe. I not sure why the crumb seems a little dense and maybe underproofed in some parts. The dough also didn't rise much in the fridge or after shaping. In general how long should I retard it after shaping? Thank you!

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Your boule looks pretty good on the outside, that's for sure.  My instruction for this dough is to retard for at least 10-12 hours.  You can decide whether you wish to divide and shape before retard or somewhere along the way, but give it the ample amount off time to develop more flavor and character under refrigeration.  If your dough is still tight-crumbed, then it may be that you are being too aggressive with the shaping.  A good rule of thumb across almost all doughs is the less handling, the better.

Alan

frodobakes's picture
frodobakes

Thanks for the advice Alan :) I'll try being more careful with the shaping. Generally how do you decide when is a good time for shaping? Are there some signs like the dough size or bubbles on the surface?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

completes.  How you determine that is up to you and experience.  There are many who shape directly out of BF, but I prefer to do so after a few hours of retard most of the time.

There are a number of threads on TFL that discuss when to consider BF complete.

Benito's picture
Benito

Depending on the temperature of your fridge, you may not see any rise in cold retard.  In fact when I used to keep my fridge at 2ºC (I now keep it at 3ºC) I used to see some shrinking of the dough.  If however your fridge is over 5ºC you may see some rise. 

Your loaf looks a wonderful big full shape, lovely.

frodobakes's picture
frodobakes

Thanks Benny :) Yea, I think my fridge's temperature is not very stable, so it could be different depending on the day.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Posting photos here is a little confusing at first but feel free to add a larger image of your nice loaf.

frodobakes's picture
frodobakes

Thanks! Will do for future CB posts.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

A few changes from the prior bake

  • no bassinage, incorporated the poolish piecemeal to limit goopiness.
  • 5 min rest 50 French Folds, 5 min rest, 50 FFs
  • 2 hr BF, divide dough in two, retarded dough for 2 hours
  • shape, couche, retard dough while oven heats up.
  • bake at 460dF instead of 400dF.  13 min w/ steam, rotate, 18 min more, 3 min vent

I failed to go tip to toe in the scoring of both, an unusual event for me, hence the ends are not symmetrical.  But that's nitpicking.  This is fine improvement over the first run with the much richer coloration that I was unable to achieve at the lower temperature.

I'll be baking this again (and again...)

800g x 2 filone

Benito's picture
Benito

Now that is the crust colouration that I expect from an Alfanso bake, beautiful and such a great contrast with the seeds and the crumb poking its yellow head through.  Love the profile of this loaf it really shows the powerful oven spring that opened up the grigne and ear.  Beautiful baking Alan.

Benny 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Wow! These are outstanding. I must try them. Great bake.

Cheers,

Gavin.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I'd recommend following a few of the changes I made.  It bewilders me why the bake temp was set so low, at 400dF, unless that may have also been another transcription problem.  I've never seen the book, so I don't know how the formula is laid out in the publication.  

If you use a mixer you shouldn't have the poolish incorporation issue I had with hand mixing.  The descriptions of the dough being tacky at the end of mixing, and puffy at the end of BF are accurate.  My long batards usually top out at ~450g, so it was fun to shape this 800g filone.

Do try it, at 55 sem/45 AP it is a good flour mix for me, aka to my favored 60/40 Hamelman levain version.

Thanks, Alan

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

And I happen to like the way they've opened up. A crumb I very much admire from a semolina/durum loaf and topped with sesame seeds. You should be very happy with these. I would be. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

from the first iteration.  Another in those getting the feet wet for the first time or two to figure what works best, or at least better, in my kitchen. 

Looking forward to this morning's breakfast toast!

thanks, Alan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

excellent oven spring & crumb!  as we would expect 

Leslie

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

It would sound like a cat call. Bellissimo!

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

... on those loaves is outstanding!  I’m guessing it tastes just as good.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

to have more appeal than something that leans too heavy on the semolina only side.  Anywhere from 50-60% or so of semolina is my sweet spot.  And for those who like them, the crumb coating of the sesame seeds adds another layer of flavor that enhances the bread.

The coloration was missing from the first bake due to the low oven temp, corrected on this go-around.  And I also give the oven a lot of steam for the first portion of the bake.

thanks, Alan

isand66's picture
isand66

Great crust and crumb.  Perfect for grilling with some good EVO brushed on top! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

reveal that our dinner was preceded by my wife's avocado toast with the bread.  The toast has EVOO and a sea salt sprinkle before a layer of ripe mildly mashed avocado.  A yuppie bruschetta? (my days of being a yuppie, if I ever was one, ended when the 'y' part left the age equation 3-4 decades ago and the 'p' part parted 20 years ago!)  

thanks, Alan

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Details in my blog entry https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67261/semolina-pain-au-levain-bake-1

Definitely a humbling experience after all the awesome loaves posted so far...  :-)

 

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

That's a loaf that deserves an awesome title. Looks delicious! 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

...for everything.  I really appreciate it.

Looking forward to trying it tomorrow.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Looks very nice. You should be "pumped up" with this bake.

Cheers,

Gavin

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

...after making the first slice.  Wasn’t sure what to expect before that. :-)

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

as good as any! well done

Leslie

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

... for the help (I referred back to your blog post a couple times today to make sure I was on track). 

Benito's picture
Benito

Troy, you should be very very proud of this loaf, the crumb is excellent, you’ve achieved an ear.  It has a good oven spring and you taken on the challenge of seeding the crust something which many bakers find difficult.  Goon on you.

Benny

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

...and I appreciate the help answering newbie questions too.  ;-)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

this is a lovely bake all around.

As most on TFL would agree, it is hard to go wrong with a Hamelman formula.  I recommend buying a scale that can read in at least tenths, if not hundredths of a gram.  A worthwhile investment, they are inexpensive (~$USD 10-12) and to me, a near essential tool for bread baking.  

This entire home craft is generally a quite inexpensive hobby, and few coins spent on the tools of the trade don't add up to very much vs. many other hobbies.  The tasty ends certainly justify the means!

It is good to see you adapting to the BBGA formula layout.  

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

...you should mention the scale.  I was just going to start looking into them today.  The one thing I have been struggling with on my current scale (+/- 1g increments), especially with starter maintenance when working with small amounts, is which side of the whole number am I on.  It will be my next investment.

The BBGA layout makes perfect sense to me. Was an easy transition to make after seeing your post and doing a little research. ;-)

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Are you allowed to breathe in the same room? What if a truck drives down the street? 1 gram is about 1/28 of an ounce. If I was making pharmaceuticals that would be an appropriate degree of graduation in baking seems a bit pedantic.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Sure, hundredths is over the top, but when I bought mine, and its eventual replacement, that's what it was.  I ignore the final digit.  A trusty tool for years, for that price I'm not going to concern myself.

gerhard's picture
gerhard

that this kind of precision was important in baking. Over the years I have rounded up and down my ingredients to make recipes easier to remember. I use to weigh 482 grams of flour were now that recipe is 500 grams. Salt and yeast are ingredients I am more exacting with, but the nearest gram is close enough.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Followed the recipe suggested by Abe for pane cafone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZi2tSwndiU). Used fine semolina instead of semola rimacinata due to availability.

Converted my 100% hydration rye starter to a stiff wheat starter overnight, then did three quick builds during the day (the second and third are part of the recipe). Added like a 5 min saltolyse before mixing in the starter to let the semolina hydrate a bit before kneading, to avoid grittiness. I don't think my starter was quite a vigorous as in the video, so extended the time between/after the fold to 30 min. After kneading the dough was so nice, very soft and just a little tacky, but not at all sticky. Shaped into a long loaf and proofed overnight on a couche in the fridge.

Baked 25 min with steam, and around 15-20 min more without, and left it in the cooling oven with the door ajar for a bit. Got very nice oven spring and good colour. Surprisingly, the crust is a bit soft, unlike my previous breads with durum, where the crust was super hard and crispy.



Will cut and see the crumb later today.

See all my bakes for this CB here.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

And I'm sure you'll love the taste too. It's a very nice recipe. Looking forward to the crumb shot and hearing what you think about it. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

shaping, coloration and scoring, to our prior deli-rye bakes!  I love the color, really pretty.   And a formula I've yet to get around to on my formula "Rolodex".   Your version looks way more appealing than the video version.  I think you may have just pushed me there!

Benito's picture
Benito

I have to agree with Alan, Ilya your version looks far more delicious than the one baked in the video.  You achieved a rich crust colour that beautifully contrasts with the crumb poking through.  It looks a proper peasant bread, but more refined.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you everyone for the kind words, but they might have been a bit premature. As I was worried with this formula that essentially calls for only cold final proof and almost no bulk ferment, I think my bread is underproofed. Unless I trapped all these bubbles during shaping, but I am pretty sure I didn't - shaped it quite tightly and tapped it in the end pretty firmly to squash any potential trapped air. And the rest of the crumb is much denser than expected from the video, but not hopelessly so.

The denser areas are still not completely dense, and overall it's tasty, with very good flavour. The bottom crust and the areas next to the scores are crispy, although the rest of the crust is not. But I guess it needed at least an extra half an hour at room temperature before retarding for a proper proof. I don't know if it's because my starter is not as strong, or the fridge is colder...

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

The builds should have been given more time and allowed to double. However in the 3-4 hours they should have no trouble doubling and that should have been an indicator. It does look under fermented and think it points to a slower starter. Perhaps next time, if you try it again, give the dough a bulk ferment and only shape when it's reached that tell tale puffiness.

I've done this a few times in the past and love the very flavoursome taste. Like a very well done biga loaf. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I think the flavour is really surprisingly nice for an underfermented bread. I feel it has some sort of savoury thing going on, some depth of flavour I can't quite put my finger on. I'll definitely repeat this and give it some extra fermentation time. And maybe I'll create a new stiff wheat offshoot longer in advance and feed it for a couple of days to give it strength. These italian breads need a supercharged starter!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Also I forgot to mention, the last build definitely doubled in the end, in just under 4 hours.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I am guessing from this and other bakes that your starter needs a boost. Which seems somewhat surprising since you seemed to be using it often. Your starter might be deficient in the gas producing yeast side of the ledger. As a man more steeped in science than me I am sure you could come up with a regimen to make it more balanced. MTCW

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I keep a whole rye starter in the fridge and then build levains from it. After the last bake where it appeared the levain was weak, I strengthened the starter with a couple of feedings, and that was just a few days ago. I am confident the starter was strong enough for any regular bread. But I think this sort of procedure with almost no bulk ferment time and cold final proof requires a super-powered starter. I had exactly this concern when starting this bake, but just trusted the process, that consecutive builds would make it sufficiently strong. But alas.

I've got 2 kg fine semolina today and want to figure out this bread properly, even underfermented it's very nice, while requiring very little hands-on time with the dough.

Benito's picture
Benito

Fortunately you enjoy the flavour so the under fermentation isn’t too bad.  

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Indeed, not perfect, but still enjoyable bread. I'll work on it again in a few days.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

That looks really good!  Love how you've shaped and scored it.  Congrats!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you - I indeed forgot to mention that I wanted to try making some loaf shaped in a longer shape than a batard, and this fit the bill perfectly. Also a good opportunity to use my couche, which otherwise is not used very much.

CharlotteS's picture
CharlotteS

I just finished my first community bake and it is great fun to share the results with the community!  

I made the Hamelman Semolina Bread which is a recipe I have made several times before and one of my favorites, but I tried to up my game by taking advantage of the teachings of all of you folks.

In particular, I tried to develop the gluten much further in the initial mix. This resulted in a pretty tight firm dough. I decided to add some additional water (probably too much too quickly), and had trouble getting the dough to come back together although it did after a lot of additional mixing. At the end, it was still hard to pull a clear window because not sufficiently extensible, although the holes that would develop when it was stretched to its limit were perfect smooth circles (no rough edges) which I have been told is a sign of full gluten development.  In any event it relaxed significantly during the bulk ferment (with two rounds of folding) and I could then pull a good window. 

In the past I have retarded the proofing of the shaped loaves and baked them the next morning, but this time I did not. 

I coated the loaves with a mix of sesame and nigella seeds—the combination I think is delicious but it probably overpowers the subtle taste of the semolina. 

The look of the loaf and crumb was far better than my prior efforts—the crumb definitely more open, but need to work on eliminating those giant holes—do you think this are result of shaping problems, failure to sufficiently degas dough, or proofing problems?

 I did find the crumb tougher (more like a 100% bread flour sourdough boule) than I remember from prior bakes. Perhaps this was from overworking dough? Or from not retarding the final proof?

Anyway I think I may try one of the higher percentage semolina recipes next. And experiment with this one again of course!

Charlotte

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

...and you can always contribute to previous ones too. They're always open. That is an interesting topping using nigella seeds. I've used them in a tomato sourdough which complimented the flavour very well but I can see how it might be a bit overpowering for the subtle sweet taste of semolina. That is a lovely looking loaf and a great crumb too. I'm in definite agreement with your love for Hamelman's recipes. If there's only one recipe book a person can have then it should be his book 'Bread'. Looking forward to more of your contributions to the community bakes. 

CharlotteS's picture
CharlotteS

Thank you for the encouraging words Abe!

Benito's picture
Benito

Hi Charlotte, nice to see bakers join in who’ve never participated in a CB before.  The crust, scoring and bloom look excellent on your loaf.  You’ve done well getting the seeds on as well, I love the look of the black and white seeds (no surprise ?).  Your crumb looks great, regarding the larger holes they do look like air trapped during shaping or folds.  I haven’t baked the formula that you did but I can say that the 100% semolina crumb wasn’t tough at all.

Looking forward to your next creation.

Benny

CharlotteS's picture
CharlotteS

Thank you for the positive feedback. Yes, I suspected the holes were trapped gas—need to work on that on my next bakes. I’ve noticed your beautiful black and white bakes too—they are very striking! 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I made the same bread and also had a slightly chewy crumb. Like you, I omitted the overnight retard, so maybe there is a relationship. It's super tasty with the seeds anyway and you certainly baked a good looking bread. Nice!

CharlotteS's picture
CharlotteS

Another Girl—Thank you so much for your feedback!!  Next  time I bake this bread I will definitely reinstate the overnight retard. Even if it has no effect on the crumb, it certainly is easier to score a cold loaf!  

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Pane Cafone 

 

First to convert my 100% hydration starter into a 50% hydration starter...

  • 10g starter
  • 20g water
  • 45g bread flour 

Left to mature until fully ripe then onto the first of two pre-ferments...

  • 41g starter
  • 46g bread flour
  • 29g water 

3-4 hours; until doubled. Then onto the second build...

  • All of the first build
  • 52g bread flour 
  • 29g water 

3-4 hours; until doubled. Then onto the final dough... 

  • All of the second build
  • 493g flour (50:50 durum:bread)
  • 319g water
  • 11g salt (recipe calls for 14.5g but I reduced it) 
  1. Form the dough and knead till it comes together. 
  2. Perform 2 sets of stretch and folds with 20 minutes rest in-between.
  3. Shape.
  4. Final proof in the fridge till the next day. 
  5. Bake. 

A very soft and creamy crumb with less of a sourdough and more of a biga flavour. Very happy with this bake. Only thing I recommend is not dropping the salt as much. Thought I'd lower it as much as possible but will benefit from the original amount. And while this recipe worked well for me I'd still be tempted to get in a bulk ferment. I don't see why it's left out and can only imagine it'll benefit more from having one. When I next do this recipe I'll stick to the original salt amount and add in a bulk ferment. 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Nice bake, Abe. Blistered crust, tender looking crumb. To what do you attribute the biga-like flavor? The durum flour or stiff starter? Both? Neither?

–AG

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I think it's down to the starter. Converting it to a 50% hydration starter then two builds just a few hours apart leivito madre style. The high percentage durum helps sweeten the final loaf too. You wouldn't eat this and think sourdough. Much closer to a flavourful biga. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I've already got my spreadsheet set up for my next semolina bake - this.  Created off a video's ingredients and amounts, although I imagine that only a "cafone" would think there was only one formula to this bread.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Just a word of warning if following this recipe. While this bake went very smoothly you're going to have to treat this recipe like all others. Tweak if need be! Some find this formula comes out ready to bake from the fridge while some people find it needs more time. While I didn't feel the need to I think it's ok to stray from the recipe somewhat and give it a bulk ferment if you wish. 

What's makes this a Cafone is the high percentage of durum flour which they substituted for instead of the bread flour as it was more expensive. Well not according to my local Italian grocer who sells durum flour at 3x the bread flour price. 

Lol.. i'm sure there are many Cafone recipes Alan and look forward to your version. 

Benito's picture
Benito

It looks very inviting Abe, both the crust and the crumb.  Sounds like the flavour is spot on as well.

Benny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

They don't like sourdough because it's tangy (most people say this without even tasting sourdough first mind you) then may this recipe put that to bed. Sourdough is what you make it. 

Thank you Benny. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes very true like the various perhaps “unorthodox” semolina bakes here ?

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Very nice looking loaf Abe!

Color in the crust and the crumb look great and I really like the scoring pattern.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

A close but soft crumb. Perhaps a bulk ferment would be advantageous but I'm still happy with the results. A curious but good tasting recipe. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Nice Abe, great looking loaf! But I agree - yours is not underproofed, but it looks like it could still benefit from more fermentation, just 30 min warm bulk might really do the trick. I bet in Naples it's much warmer than in our flats, and within the short time during folds they get a lot of fermentation going. We might have to compensate with a longer time. Next time I'll put it in my "proofer" for at least 30 min and until I see some signs of fermentation, before starting the folds.

Btw, I really liked this folding technique as a preshape. Adds structure to the loaf without going into lamination territory.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

While this bake is good I still think a bulk ferment would be even better. Using soft flour, probably much warmer and maintaining a LM probably makes for better success. I think after this durum bake I'll be doing some others for the time being but when I come back to this I definitely would approach it differently. Still, fun to do it closer to the recipe but a recipe shouldn't be constraining. This bread has great potential and definitely could do with a few changes here and there. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I already got 2 kg of fine semolina, and also ordered a bag of semola rimacinata from bakerybits today, so I'm going to work more on this recipe! Even my semi-successful bread is very tasty, so fully fermented I'm sure it'll be even better.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Go for AP and not bread flour. That might help too. I will next time. The flour I used was strong and might have slowed the fermentation down. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I'm going to use my bread flour from the 16 kg bag I have :) 12.3% protein, so not super strong.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I guess you could say. Maybe the peasants couldn't afford the luxury of bulk fermentation or as you surmised the multi stage build and the long proof are sort of the same thing. Nice loaf going from yeast water in one of your previous bakes to a biga here. I can't imagine what's next.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

A nice loaf with very good flavour. All the same I think we have room for some artistic license. Toasts up a treat. As for the next loaf.... i'm working on it. After these semolina/durum bakes i'm missing sourdough with a nice lactic acid tang. There's a place for everything. 

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

 

 

Semolina rimacinata with white all purpose unbleached wheat flour

 

Total flour weight 900g: 600g rimacinata and 300g AP

Total water weight 650g

Total salt weight 18g

Total yeast 1/2 tsp + 1/8 tsp

 

Method used is slightly modified from the original post on this site from Maggie Glezer's Tom Cat's Semolina Filone.  Have been using this formula for close to 10 years and I am comfortable with it.   I use the same basic formula with white AP, whole wheat, rye, semolina and spelt.  Water is varied depending on grain type.  70% hydration with semolina is a bit on the high side.   I generally aim for 67% hydration.  A bit lower if semolina, rye or spelt are in the mixture.  A bit higher if whole wheat is in the mixture.  I generally do not bake with 100% of one grain, but rather two or three grains. 

 

Poolish

300g flour, 50/50 mix of rimacinata and AP

150g water with 1/8tsp active dry yeast dissolved

150g water

Mix, cover with plastic and let sit overnight

 

Dough

Poolish

600g flour: 450g rimacinata and balance AP

350g water

18g salt

1/2tsp active dry yeast

 

Whisk dry ingredients together, add water and poolish, mix well by hand, slap fold for about 10 minutes until consistency is very elastic, form into a ball and place in bowl, and cover with plastic.  Place in warm area for about 1.5-2 hours.  I use the oven which has been preheated for 2-3 minutes at 200deg F.   The oven temp is around 120deg F and is turned off. 

 

After 1.5-2 hours, remove dough, place on lightly floured work surface and deflate.  Stretch out dough, make one letter fold and form into a boule.  My standard loaf shape is an elongated boule or stubby batard.  Place shaped loaf on parchment or baking mat on baking sheet, and place in a warm moist place.  I use the microwave with a ramekin of water brought nearly to a boil, which preheats and steams the microwave.  

Preheat oven to 500deg F.

After 1 hour, remove loaf, score and place in oven.  I like strong color on the crust and a medium well done crumb.  Bake until crust starts to brown well, then turn heat to 450 and finish baking.  Total baking time is approximately 45-50 minutes.   Rest on cooling grid.  Slice after 3 or more hours of cooling time.  

I bake for nutrition, flavor and texture, which I believe I have achieved in this loaf.  I avoid "large holes" and don't have the patience for sourdough.   I eat this bread every day for breakfast with butter and honey from the comb.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

A very nice loaf. Your experience is showing through. I loved reading your process and write-up and think your comment on the hydration of rimacinata is spot on. I had a batter-like slurry at 80% hydration.

Cheers,

Gavin.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

That is a perfect crumb to me!  Looks like a really good crust too. 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

That is a handsome, flavorful looking bread. Reading your post, one can practically feel your familiarity and contentment with your process and product and see the warm tones of bread and honey. It was a nice thing to read on a gray wintry day. Thank you for sharing it. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The sidebar on my YouTube screen had a video for this.  A Middle East Bagel, whereby every culture has their own version, is my understanding.  An easy to make direct dough with an IDY bomb for a 1 hr BF and 1 hr proof.

Although listed as an all AP dough, I converted it to 55 semolina/45 AP flours.  With a sesame seed coating, it seemed like a "good idea" to sub half the flour with semolina, especially since this is a semolina CB!  If you are a fan of sesame seed coatings and the subsequent need for a vacuum, then this is certainly an easy bread you may wish to try.  

My first foray had the dough rolled out to 24 inch strands, but produced a "too fat" bagel.  Baked according to the recipe in the video, at 440dF and 25 min, these were burned, but still tantalizing and hard to keep away from.

So I had to make it again this morning.  The strands are now 32-34 inches long and the baking was 20 min at 400dF.  The four juniors are the full strand cut in half and then rolled out even thinner.  The molasses water makes for a sweet taste on the tongue.  The wife asked for one to be baked "nude" with just the molasses water dip.

The seal is difficult due to the oil included in the dough.  My shaping could use some practice for this, but I'll consider these to be my Simit training wheels.

Correction on formula - Mix all ingredients EXCEPT the Molasses water and sesame seeds!

The easy converted recipe as written for the video is

3 cups flour

Sesame Seeds

2 tsp salt

1 TBS dry yeast

3 TBS vegetable oil

4 TBS molasses + 4 TBS water

1 cup water

Pre-bake

Post-bake with 3 from yesterday's over baked batch

The crumb from yesterday's batch.

Benito's picture
Benito

They looks really yummy Alan, nice work.  Are happy with the flavour, they should be great with the sesame seeds and added sweetness of the molasses.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the mouth feel is just a tad dry, but that is quickly replaced by an addictive and pleasing flavor.  Mostly from the  slightly sweetened crust and sesame seeds added to the great crunch of the crust.  A really good and simple bread that I made on a lark, especially the splitting of the flours to a traditionally all AP flour dough.

The entire process doesn't take more than 3 hours total, if that.  I think that these are known as a breakfast bread to have with morning tea or coffee.  But anytime is a good time! 

I sent my baked picture  to my friend who grew up in Athens and asked if he had a similar bread.  And he wrote...

"In my part of the world it is called koulouri (bread ring).  Years back when I was a kid there were salesmen of this walking the streets in Greece selling them, they typically stack hundreds of them on a wooden platform which they will carry on their shoulder.  Amazingly skilled I had never seen or heard of one of them dropping the platform and spilling them.  Back then each cost one drachma which was the equivalent of maybe 5 - 10 cents. You handed the drachma to the guy and picked one from the stack and went your way.  Those times are gone now only exist in memory, they are sold now in bakeries and pastry shops each of them now a few euros.".

He lives on the other side of the country from us, but if I ever get the chance, I'll bake him a batch.

Benito's picture
Benito

Now that you mention it, I think I remember seeing people selling these types of breads in Athens in the Plaka area about 15 years ago when we went to Athens for the first time.  We never tried them, but I now recall seeing such bread being sold by venders many of whom were walking around selling them.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

From a guy that converted every recipe into baguette form I am somewhat surprised to see your shapeshifting. Are the planets and stars in a new alignment or are you just branching out? I am hoping this CB does not conclude without a baguette submission because the ground beneath us is shifting enough for now without our lodestar.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

making the Tom Cats into baggies, and just this afternoon resisted.  Instead I'm Jonesing a bit for something closer to home, so there is a Vermont SD under BF right now with a few Baguettes inside of the dough waiting to be born tomorrow.  But I'll get back Honky Cat to Tom Cat as baguettes in a few days.  ¿Como no?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

And we're off....

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67295/36th-bake-02032021-100-durum-fiber-wala

553 g whole grain (or nearly whole grain) Canadian durum, Sher brand "Fiber Wala." (3 cups, scoop and sweep)

85% hydration.

2% salt.

1.0 g, .18% instant dry yeast, 1/4 tsp.

It came out a great golden color. No wonder they call it "the golden bread of Altamura."

--

Follow the link to my blog to see additional photos. Outside crust looked nice. Inside was too dense and moist.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

 Here's one with Semola Rimacinata. I think it came out quite nicely for a newer baker. My best one yet!


It really had a great rise. The ear could have been better, I suppose, but it blossomed beautifully nevertheless.


I forgot to slash the thing before getting it into the Dutch oven but I gave it a quick cut while in the pot, spritzed with abandon, and slammed the cover on.


One observation is that I had a sort of dry skin on the outside of the dough after bulk ferment. I kept that skin on the outside during pre-shape and shape. It wasn't like elephant skin but noticeably drier than I have seen before. I should have covered more tightly, I think.

Hey, look at that roll pattern. I don't think I like that. I wonder if it can be proofed out?


I can tell you that the letter fold was on the tight side. I pinched all the internal seams together.


I counter proofed for two hours and it seemed just about right but that bottom seam just blew apart as it sat in my loaf pan with the seam side up.


I omitted the second retard on my Hamelman recipe. At this point, I don't even think I can call it a Hamelman. The only things I carried over from his recipe are the flours and 65% hydration.

Ah, well. What are you gonna do?

All my breads so far don't taste like anything "special" on the first sampling. They seem to get better after a day or so. This one was no different.

The crumb was nice and creamy - just the way I like it! I am not a fan of large holes. Pea-sized is good but not too many.


Tender, moist... nicely moist... but not dense. Nice and airy. I certainly didn't have to tug a chunk of bread off the slice with my teeth. I hate having to work while I'm eating.


The crust was to die for! Thin, and crispy like a Saltine cracker! Just a nice snap, crackle, and pop. I got some blistering on the crust. I am ambivalent about it. Some think it's a flaw, others work hard to get them. Me? The crust was beautiful!


Oh! One last thing for any newer bakers who are following along... "Refreshing" your starter or, in my case, the 125% hydration levain is amazing! WOW! That REALLY kicks your starter or levain into high gear!

This is the first time I have ever done that. I had a perfectly ripe levain but the timing worked out such that I could fit two, four-hour 1:1 refreshes into my schedule. The result was incredibly more levaining power.

I fermented flour with a vengeance straight out of the Bible!

I am confident enough that I am able to tell friends and co-workers that I'm baking sourdough. They all want some now! I better start getting consistent. Fast!

Thank you everybody for your help, critiques, and encouragement.

I have purchased bread at the supermarket as I ran out during my learning curve. I have never realized how it just tastes like a bag of sawdust... until you spoiled me forever!


Because of you, I am eating better bread and I can't thank you enough.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, nice rustic loaf, I actually like blisters on my sourdough loaves.  Yes covering more tightly to avoid skin formation during bulk is important but an easy fix for you.  I wonder if you used too much flour on the counter or the dough when shaping?  If you use too much flour (I’ve done this plenty of times even recently so I know from experience) in can interfere with the folded dough connecting to each other and thus cause gaps in the crumb where they don’t come together as one.  Not sure I explained that well to understand.  Anyhow this might be partly why you see the pattern in the crumb and then the fold in the bottom crust.  With more practice you’ll improve your shaping and you’ll be much happier with the results.

That being said, you baked a delicious semolina sourdough loaf and should be proud of it.

Benny

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Benny!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the dusting flour. I didn't use any. It was definitely a covering issue.

Loaf pan was in a plastic grocery bag. Knot should have been tighter. 

The blisters are nice,  though. Sometimes I get them, sometimes I don't..

It's a nice bread. A good eat.

Beats me why but I'm more fascinated by the fermenting flour than by anything else. This dough really proofed out!

Thank you for the kind words. 

Murph

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The crust and crumb looks good and it baked up nicely. I have found that after shaping if you let it rest on the seam for a few minutes it will seal up on it's own. If it hasn't you can pinch it or stitch it after it is placed in the basket. Did you use a bread pan to proof it as you mentioned or was that a typo? 

Fermented flour with a vengeance is mine saith The Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, MTLoaf!

Hah! A light bulb just lit up! :)

I DID proof in a pan.... while the seam unzipped. <sigh>

Gee, THERE'S an easy fix, huh?

Thanks!

Murph

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Feb 5, 2021. Starting a 2nd loaf for the CB.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67323/37th-bake-02052021-78-ww-durum

The goals here are to use mostly whole grain durum with a portion of bread flour to get a better crumb, and to use enough sourdough starter and instant dry yeast to bake it tonight.

10:05 am - short soak of the WW durum to get it hydrated.

  • 560 g of whole grain durum, "Fiber Wala" from Sher Brar Mills. www.sherbrarmills.com/
  • 539 g bottled spring water.

10:45 am -

  • 40 g of 100% hydration starter, 3 days in fridge since last fed, with KABF.
  • 140 g KABF, King Arthur bread flour.
  • 1/8 tsp instant dry yeast.
  • 14.3 g salt. Salt and IDY were dispersed in the KABF prior to mixing into the main dough.
  • 28 g more water.

11:00 am - finish mixing and a little kneading. Put in oven with light on.

Total flour = 560 WW durum + 20 in starter + 140 KABF = 720 g.

Total water = 539 + 20 in starter + 28 = 587 g.

Hydration = 587 / 720 = 81.5 %.

% WW = 560 / 720 = 77.8 %.

%PFF = 20 / 720 = 2.78%.

-- 

See above blog link for more photos.

Alan.H's picture
Alan.H

Semola Rimacinata doesn't seem to exist in my local shops, especially during lockdown and I was about to order some online when my wife spotted a few bags of Doves Farm pasta flour at a local supermarket. On the packet the ingredients are given as "wheat, durum wheat" which could mean either that the wheat is durum wheat but more likely that there is a mixture of common wheat and durum wheat, but no percentages are given. I am keeping my fingers crossed that there is a minimum of 40% durum in the mix so that I will not be gatecrashing this community bake.

I have used an overnight sourdough sponge of 119% hydration for this bake, a method I started my sourdough journey with some years ago and used often until new fangled ideas came along such as Robertson's Tartine and Forkish's Flour Water Salt and Yeast etc. It is a nice way of preparing a dough and a reliable means of producing that elusive sourdough tang.

Overall formula

1105g Doves Farm pasta flour.

 800g  Water

 60g starter 100% hyd. fed twice with pasta flour.

 22g salt

 73% hydration

 Day 10.15 pm  Sponge preparation.

 60g active starter dissolved in 600g water. 500g pasta flour added and mixed in = 119% hydration.Covered and left     at room temperature overnight.

This is the sponge at 10.30 am on day 2.

11 am. Rest of ingredients added.

605g pasta flour. 200g water. 22g salt mixed in followed by 30 minute rest.

S & F for 5 minutes followed by 30 minutes rest then another 5 minutes S & F. and 30 min.rest.

Dough moved to covered square box for remainder of bulk fermentation of about three and a half hours which included three coil folds at half hourly intervals.

Dough divided and pre-shaped, then after 20 minutes final shape and placed into 2 bannetons and into fridge for overnight proof.

Day 3  11am

2 loaves baked in dutch ovens at 260°c  with lid on for 25 minutes, reducing to 245°c after 10 minutes. Lids off for further 15 minutes

.

Quite pleased with this first attempt using this unknown durum mix. There's a nice soft texture to the crumb and the taste was delicious, especially when toasted. I will try again when I have located some real  semola rimacinata.

If further research proves that this pasta flour contains less than the required 40% durum flour, I have at hand a supply of sackcloth and ashes to do penance in.                    

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

That a lovely crust and crumb. I like the bold bake peeping through the lightly floured crust and the golden coloured crumb bursting through the scoring. That's going to toast up well and go down a great dipped into olive oil. What's more I can tell you that this flour is near enough 50:50 durum and bread flour. I use this sometimes and emailed Doves Farm to find out what the mix is. 

Alan.H's picture
Alan.H

Thanks for the kind words Abe and the tip about an olive oil dip. We will try that. Also for the info on the flour mix percentage being 50/50 bread flour and durum................won't need that sackcloth and ashes then!

Alan

Benito's picture
Benito

Two very handsome loaves Alan, good baking!  I wonder how much durum there is in that blend?  

Benny

Alan.H's picture
Alan.H

Thank you Benny. As for the percentage of durum in the pasta flour, Abe who had also used that flour had found out from Doves Farm that the mix is close to 50/50 durum and bread flour..........which I was pleased about.

Alan

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

You know, I really like the white flour-dusted crust. I think that is so cool.

It looks like you had great fermentation throughout the whole dough.

If you don't mind me asking... how come the large holes at the ends. I get them, too. I think I'm shaping too much, too long, or too aggressively. Maybe squeezing all the gas from the center to the surface? Thoughts? 

I was wondering the same thing about my Golden Temple Atta that you wondered about your flour.... what really IS in that bag?

Idaveindy had a nice explanation for the Atta. Durum flour, durum bran, wheat flour, and some enrichments. I have to mix with white flour. You went straight in and it looks like it worked! :)

Murph

Alan.H's picture
Alan.H

Thank you Murph.

I'm afraid I can't be much help about the uneven crumb but here is a picture of the crumb of the second loaf which was cut later in the day. I didn't include it in the original post because the background didn't match the other pics but as you can see, although there are some larger holes round the outside, the crumb is generally much more regular which I do prefer.

The two loaves had identical treatment after the dough was divided and shaped, placed in identical bannetons and then side by side in the fridge for a long cold overnight proof. Next day they were placed in identical dutch ovens and baked alongside each other for the dame length of time. So I don't why the crumb isn't identical too.

It's what makes baking so exciting. you can never be sure what you are going to get.

As for the flour mix in my pasta flour. you might have seen above that Abe, who had also used the same flour had found out from the producers that the mix is close to 50/50 bread flour and durum flour, so I was quite pleased to hear that.

Alan

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

I modified Hamelman’s recipe slightly with altered levain amount and added a poolish. Worked nicely for my first of two 1 kg mega batards. See my blog entry for the details.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

of a batard!  I so love the Hamelman semolina breads, as well as a host of his others.  This bake has my heart palpitating.  Well, not exactly, but you get the idea.  You'll be receiving accolades from Benny any minute now!

I placed link to your blog at the top of the entire CB as well.

Alan

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes Alan knows me too well and I totally concur, that is an amazing big loaf.  I love the pointy ends and the good sesame crust, who doesn’t like a sesame crust?  That will make amazing sandwiches all week for you.  Well done FFT.

Benny

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

I used to bake strictly based on recipes with just little adjustments up until a friend of mine challenged me to do my own recipes. He was right. As long as you understand what to expect from a specific flour and you apply some basic principles you cannot go wrong. Well maybe, sometimes is not perfect but for sure good enough to eat it.

I baked durum bread before and I remembered the sweet taste it was giving to the bread. I loved it. But I also remember that last time I baked with durum I failed with great success. I was upset, so the box of durum flour stayed somewhere in the back of a cupboard.

This CB made me take the box back and try again a new recipe.

Here is my very first attempt of a customised recipe I wanted to try.

Ingredients:

- 350g starter

- 545g durum flour

- 545g pizza flour (Mulino Caputo, 12.5%protein)

- 22g salt

Method:

- autolyse for 1h30, (with the dough in the proofer at 28ºC, like all the following rests)

- add starter, rest 1h

- add salt, rest 1h

- divide in 2, rest 30 mins

- lamination, rest 45 mins

- 3 CFs: 1st, rest 30 min, 2nd, rest 30 mins, 3rd, rest 45 mins. (with such a stiff dough, the CFs were done straight in my hands)

- shape, 1h rest and then to the fridge for 16 hours

- bake 20 mins at 260ºC+25 mins @220ºC

Well, this was the first try of this recipe, the dough was to stiff for my taste (65%) but I went on the cautious side as my previous bake from a few months ago was weird. (I do not remember why)

Although in the end, I was not disappointed with the result, I think there is a place for improvements and I will give another try with higher hydration.

But for now, this is my first attempt:

Benito's picture
Benito

Very beautiful loaf HS, the stenciling is very pretty as is your photography. I love the dark bake of the crust and your crumb looks great.

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

since these are too beautiful to eat!

I'll repeat it - my lifelong friend Janet learned her excellent crafts skills from her mother.  While trying to reproduce it exactly as written in the instructions, her mom told her to change something, anything about it.  And in this way she could make it her own.  

And that's what I often do and stress as a worthy venture for those on TFL to consider.  Once you change it, it is yours with a nod back to the original creator.  

And here you have it.  Brava!

Floydm's picture
Floydm

I baked the Tom Cat Semolina Filone last night.

I should have added a bit of extra flour so it'd tighten up and hold its shape better, but the flavour was excellent. I will definitely bake it again some time.

Benito's picture
Benito

The combination of semolina and sesame is fabulous isn’t it Floyd.  Nice bake with a good crumb, nicely baked Sir.

Benny

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Yeah, it's great. 

One of the grocery store chains we used to shop at in the States made a semolina bread covered in sesame seeds like this. I'm sure it was shipped to the store frozen and par-baked but it was still a pretty decent bread, so we'd often pick up a loaf. It has nearly been 10 years since we moved to Vancouver. I don't think I've had a loaf of anything like this since the move, so it really hit the spot.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the Tom Cat is one of the best, tastiest semolina breads I've yet baked.  And I've baked a lot of semolinas these past half dozen years.  Once the hydration issue was resolved (wink, wink) the bread became a delight to mix and bake.

I don't know if Greg Mistell's Pearl or Delfina was open when you were in PDX, and I can't think of any exclusively Italian bakeries. You mentioned that you were in the SE quadrant, so was it Grand Central if they were initially shipping pre-baked from ~Seattle before they started baking on site or elsewhere in the city?  (Never considered them to be leaning Italian despite their "signature" Como loaf).

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

It was only a matter of time.  Same formula as referenced at the top of the entire CB, but retarded after 2 hr BF and agains after shaping.  Total retard time was probably ~4-5 hrs.  Again baked at 460dF instead of the "puny" 400dF in the "original" posted formula on TFL.

This a very active dough and even after retard to divide and shape, the pre-shapes were showing large gas bubbles under the surface by the 10 minute pre-shape resting mark.  The oven spring was dandy, but they could have developed a little more grigne to their ears and another 3 minutes baking time for a darker coloration.  A pair of quibbles.

330g x 3 baguettes/long batards

Benito's picture
Benito

Classic Alfanso baguettes with the beautiful ears and grigne. How is the flavour of the Tom Cat done as a baguette?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and every time I passed the bread on the cutting board it was calling my name for another slice!

It is a bit of an odd duck type of dough.  A 90% hydration poolish is approaching "no man's land" between high hydration biga and poolish and acts as a fairly sticky component to incorporate by hand.  But 50 FFs before and again after a 5 minute rest and the dough behaves beautifully.  By the first letter fold at 20 minutes into BF the dough is quite extensible again putting to rest the notion that high percentage semolina mixes are not extensible.  Described as "puffy" at termination of BF is not a stretch.

At 75% hydration, this places the dough toward the upper limits of hydrations in my comfort zone, excepting things like ciabatta, etc.  Definitely a keeper.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I think it's a bake to be proud. Very nice and I bet full of flavour.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I suggest that you do.  There is something that takes a slight left turn from the "normal" semolina based bread flavor which gives it a somewhat unique and enhanced taste.

Another bake with a non-levain preferment (few and far between for me) to place toward the front of the "recipe box".

I think that the word enjoyed would fit the bill better that proud, Burt certainly appreciate the sentiment.

Alan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

They look great and are a return to normal order. I mostly prefer a full bake but with the semola I like the golden brown color best for looks and taste. The fire department would be happy to rescue those tom cats from the tree.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

(from The Music Man).  Surprised to just learn that Tom Cat Bakery is a wholesale to the trade business only, and was bought out by a large Japanese baking conglomerate a few years ago.  It made the news in April 2017 under the headline " Immigration inquiry draws protest at Tom Cat Bakery".

All of which has nothing do with the formula and bread itself on TFL. I was merely searching for a list of breads produced by the bakery to see whether the Filone would surface.

I think that my "needs" almost always lean toward the darker bake as I get a little more flavor from the crust when it is baked so.

If I ever bake these with a healthy dose of Sambal Oleck, I'll be calling the F.D. because I'll have a 4 alarm fire inside my mouth!

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

"If I ever bake these with a healthy dose of Sambal Oleck"

That doesn't sound so bad especially since the temperature is supposed to be minus 18 F here(MT) tonight. Or were you just daring Benny to try that next time.

My favorite cold joke goes "It was so cold, I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets."

Benito's picture
Benito

OK now that is a great lawyer joke Don.

I don’t think I’ll be baking with Sambal Oleck anytime soon, a bit too spicy for me. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

After the previous underproofed bake of pane cafone, I was determined to figure it out and make it work. Well, I'm definitely much closer this time!

Basically, with Abe's guidance, I strengthened the stiff starter over a few feeds, so that it properly follows the timing in the recipe (doubling within 3-4 hours for first and second dough). On top of that, after kneading I left the dough to proof at 27C in my "proofer" for 1 hr, since it certainly felt cold - despite using warm water - must be heat loss from kneading on a colder surface.

And then it also spent much longer in the cold proof in the fridge this time, around 15 hrs. From outside it looks like a twin of the first loaf (just a little smaller, since I made a slightly smaller batch of dough). However it's not underproofed!


There are some slightly larger holes in the crumb, but these I would believe that I trapped during shaping. Hope I don't discover some caverns further inside the loaf!

The flavour is the same lovely non-sour, with a hint of durum sweetness and some nice underlying aroma - as Abe says, as if it was a biga bread.

PS

See all my semolina CB bakes here.

Benito's picture
Benito

Very nice pane cafone Ilya.  Beautiful even yellow hued crumb, perfect for any spreads or sandwiches.  Great crust with lots of caramelization.  It sounds like the flavour profile you were aiming for as well, well done.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Benny! So far I just tried it on its own or with olive oil to appreciate the bread itself, but I'm sure it'll support many a sandwich in its life. If you decide to detour from open-crumb batards and baguettes, this might be an interesting bake to do.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

And nothing wrong with a tight crumbed loaf, if that is the intent of the formula.  Still on my to-do list I'll be donning my peasant clothing for the bake!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! All crumbs are welcome indeed, and it's fun to try something different from time to time.

albacore's picture
albacore

Very nice loaf, Ilya. The shape, scoring and crumb look remarkably similar to a proper Bloomer loaf.

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Lance! The way I shaped it, it's a bit thinner/longer than how I imagine a bloomer (maybe it's not very obvious from the pictures), but otherwise very similar indeed. I like how it looks!

albacore's picture
albacore

Yes, you're right, Ilya. Here's a bloomer I made a few moths ago:

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

That looks perfect! I feel as if I have seen this exact bread in a shop, spot on bloomer.

I think the original shape in the video is more similar to this than my version, actually, just fewer scores. And I made it into a sort of thick baguette.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

And we have lift-off!

More details to come at the blog: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67390/38th-bake-02092021-3rd-durum-cb-70-ww-semolina-kabf

But for now:

  • 69.5% WW durum flour, Sher Fiber Wala.
  • 12.4% regular semolina, low/no bran, the normal gritty stuff.
  • (81.9% total durum: WW Fiber Wala + semolina)
  • 18.1% King Arthur bread flour.
  • 72.7% hydration. (not counting chia add-in.)
  • 5.84% pre-fermented flour. 
  • 3% dry whole chia seeds.
  • 2 hours, 24 minutes soak.
  • 5 hours, 16 minutes bulk ferment.
  • 11 hours, 52 minutes final-proof in fridge.
  • 55 minutes total bake. 30 min covered. 25 minutes uncovered.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Did you feel as though you had to have a longer autolyse due to the semolina #1 being used?  Personally I find that topping out ~60% semolina/durum to be my sweet spot, as I like to have the flavor from a healthy mix of white flour in dough. 

Do you bake these freestanding on a stone or in a D.O.?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I can't  answer the "does semolina need a longer soak?" because I keep changing too many things bake to bake.

The only other times I used a significant amount of semolina (bakes 24 & 25) 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66452/24th-bake11232020-semolina-chia
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66473/25th-bake-11252020-semolina-millet-chia
#24 had a good crumb, and #25 was dense.

I haven't used non-WW durum flour (the finely ground stuff) since my bread machine days. So I can't compare non-bran-fine-flour-durum to non-bran-gritty-semolina.

And I can't tell if my problems with the previous two Fiber Wala bakes for this CB were due to soaking time, hydration %, or fermentation, as I haven't established a base line yet for this flour in a hearth loaf.

This Fiber Wala whole grain durum is super sticky. But I suspect it's because it needs  a long soak or a long bulk ferment.  Is it because of the bran, or because it's durum? Maybe both.

But the semolina (gritty and branless) did fine in bake #24 without a soak, just going straight into the bulk terment. Unfortunately, I just winged that one and did not keep a good log of what I did.

As I keep saying to newbie home-millers, home-milled grain goes through stages before it becomes dough: first it's too wet, then later the water gets absorbed, then it relaxes so you can then knead or stretch/fold or slap/fold.

This WW durum is similar, it just takes time to a) absorb the water, even though it is already finely ground, and b) relax into a dough.

I did a lot of intermediate handling of the dough on this one, making adjustments along the way -- first adding more flour because it seemed too wet, but then it didn't stretch-and-fold right, so I ended up adding more water.

When I stretch-and-fold, and it tears, (and I haven't yet established a hydration "baseline" for a new flour) I have to ask myself: Is it tearing because it needs more water, or is it tearing, or separating, because it hasn't fully absorbed the water it already has (and relaxed a bit)?

Triticum Durum (whether semolina or finely ground, near-branless or WW) is not Triticum Aestivum (common wheat, white or red).  It really is a different animal.

---

Plus, we have the unknown levels of bran. Semolina is near branless, as it is the midlings.  Golden Temple brand has _some_ bran, but the fact that they add vitamins (aka enrichments) means it is not 100% whole grain. The non-durum "wheat flour" they also add in is not specified as to whether it is white flour or WW.

---

Net:  I think semolina does benefit from a good soak in order that it does not tear from stretch and folds, and if you want to do stretch and folds soon (less than 2 or 3 hours) after adding levain, then you need that soak to happen before adding the levain.

--

I changed the pic so you can see the shape better.

--

Baked in a dutch oven -- Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker, on the lid, 9" inner diameter at the bottom, plus a little more room on the curved slope side.

1435 g dough weight going into the banneton.

1327 g loaf weight coming out of the oven.

Benito's picture
Benito

Now that’s a great looking boule Dave, nice work.  Your adjustments really helped achieve the oven spring you were hoping for.  Looking forward to the crumb which I’m sure will be great as well.

Benny

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

and here I thought that flour was for making flat bread. If I ever get out of my bubble I intend to look for some of that Canadian/Indian flour. I use chop sticks to stir my starter with and to scramble eggs. It never occurred to me use them for a cooling rack. You the man!

Don

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

And thank-you Alf, Benny, Don.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

22 hours after baking, I cut it open.  It tastes good. But the crumb is mostly closed, spongey and rubbery.

Not as dense as previous WW durum loaves, probably because of lower hydration. 

Still goes well with olive oil. Still makes good toast.

 ---

Plan for next bake: do a longer, up to 10 hours, soak (and add salt before soaking); and after adding levain, knead more, to develop better gluten.

 

windycityloafster's picture
windycityloafster

I decided to take another stab at this bread, for some reason I am really drawn to it. My last bake was very dense on the inside and overly elastic, so I increased my hydration considerably on my second attempt. While I'm happy-er with it, I am definitely coming back to this as there is much room for improvement. Sadly I have to wait while flour comes in the mail. Anyway here it is.

  1. Type 110 Durum: 100%
  2. Levain (1:4:4 overnight build): 20%
  3. Salt: 2%
  4. Water: 90%

I give the flour a short autolyse, 30 minutes. Then I mix in the levain, knead by hand on the tabletop for a few minutes, and then let the dough rest 30 minutes. I repeat this process with the salt. After a 45 minute rest I laminate for structure. After that, I let the dough rest for 45 minutes. I then perform 1 strong fold, and that's all the work the dough gets. I bulk at ~65 degrees for about 7 1/2 hours. Then I shape into a batard and ferment in the fridge at ~35-38 F for 14 hours. I preheat a cast iron combo cooker, and bake at 515 F for 20 minutes during the spring, before lowering to 450 for another 20 minutes to set the crust.

The result was pretty nice, the crumb still on the tighter side but more open than the last by a long shot- the photos don't really tell, but the texture is much more airy and far less bricklike. Flavor is good, but I think it could benefit from a longer ferment- this dough, even at 90% hydration, could take a lot more abuse than it got, and still not slouch or pool out. I would say just to ferment at a higher temperature, but this is not an option this time of year- not without a very touch and go game of turning the oven on for a few seconds every twenty minutes or so to maintain a stable, warm internal temp, but this is an awful lot of work and invariably causes an "oh shoot, did I leave the oven on with dough inside, please tell me I turned it off" moment. I will try again with a more moderate hydration and a longer autolyse, but this dough used most of my durum, so I anxiously await my next bag in the mail.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Hello windycityloafster,

I recognise these difficulties when working with durum wheat.

Without getting into a lot of detail, try adding a little salt to your levain. And maybe push the feed slightly to 1:5:5. Then if you wish going forward try seeding the levain with a piece of old dough that has fully fermented.

Acidity tends to make durum's tenacity problems worse. The Durum breads of southern Italy are entrenched in old-dough processes.

windycityloafster's picture
windycityloafster

That's interesting. I thought that acid would condition the dough and help with extensibility, but this is not the case. Would it make sense then to ferment with a younger, less sour starter and at a higher temperature to prevent acid buildup? It's my experience that when I push bread through the process quickly, going through bulk around that "ideal" dough temperature of 74 F I end up with a product that's less sour than if I draw it out and delay fermentation. Maybe that lower ash content with this flour I'm waiting on will help too, I have a type 110 wheat flour that I use in small amounts to spike my starter feed with along with rye, the microbes go nuts for the mineral content; this usually leaves a more sour taste in my end product.

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve posted the details of this bake in a separate blog post that is also linked through my semolina CB posts.  I wanted to try a higher percentage of whole Kamut than my previous bakes of Kamut and adjusted my old formula for more Kamut and water.  I also wanted to have some black sesame flavour since I believe it should go well with the whole Kamut.

 

Total dough weight 900 g

 

Levain 86 g needed 9% PFF

Overnight build 1:6:6 Bread flour 74ºF 

7 g starter + 42 g water + 42 g Bread Flour

Wasn’t ready after 9 hours

 

Dough Mix overnight saltolyse 

Water for 85% hydration 364 g hold back 20 g so 344 g at mix

Bread Flour 244 g

Kamut 192 g

Salt 9.58 g

Levain 86 g

 

Total Formula 

Total flour 479 g

40% Whole Kamut = 192 g

60% Bread Flour = 287 g

Total water 407 g 85%

 

Edited to add crumb photos

I sliced this loaf today, and it is quite tasty.  I’ll have to say that I’m getting so much closer to my ideal crumb, lacy.  There are some larger alveoli I think are related to insufficient degassing, but the rest of the crumb is what I’m aiming for, relatively even, fine gluten strands.  Given the 40% whole Kamut I can’t say I’m disappointed at all with this bake.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Very nice looking loaf Benny. Kamut really is a lovely grain with some characteristics of durum but definitely has more than just that hint of sweetness with other flavour notes going on. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Isn’t that funny Abe, great minds think alike huh? I’m looking forward to slicing this one for lunch tomorrow.  We had the sour cherry chocolate one for lunch today so didn’t need to slice this one yet.  Hoping for a good crumb.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Very nice loaf. I must try some Kamut in the future. The addition of black sesame would be a good affiliate.

Cheers,

Gavin

Benito's picture
Benito

When I baked with Whole Kamut before at lower percentages we really enjoyed the bread’s flavour.  I’m hoping that the sesame will go well, which I expect since Kamut and Durum are related.  The colour of the flour is a bit browner in tone from the bran but otherwise it is still a nice yellow overall.  You should give it a try Gavin, I suspect you’d like it.

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

about embarrassing the rest of us in TFL.  Another work of art.

As far as you and Abe with your great minds...there's an app for that too!  That and a couple of Ibuprofen will be the cure-all!

Benito's picture
Benito

Too funny Alan but thanks especially since I made two errors with this bake. First one using final bread flour weight instead of the mix weight and then overcompensating with additional water leaving this dough a mess trying to slap and fold.  Fortunately sprinkling more whole Kamut on during slap and folds until the dough just came back together saved it.  Let’s see if the crumb shows it is good.
Benny 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

when still living in two cities ago I tried to learn how to bake bread from an old book my wife had (and which I had  previously ignored), Beard on Bread, authored by the great James Beard.  But there were scant illustrations or instructions that couldn't/wouldn't sink in.  For example, I took punching the dough down literally.  Now this was in the age before websites like TFL existed  so I was pretty much stranded on my own desert island.  

And I'd hand mix flour and water to the published recipe specs, and when it seemed too dry, I'd add water.  And then it seemed too wet so I'd flour, in what became somewhat vicious cycle.  The more typical result was to leave the mound of goop on the counter for my wife to see (not to clean-up) and for her to see how "far" I'd progressed when she got home.

Wrong book, wrong timing for internet access, wrong decade.  But I know what you mean.  These past years I place my bench knife over the appropriate line in the formula, and do the old "measure twice, cut once" routine.  

Can't say that I haven't been there, but it is quite few and far between these days.

Benito's picture
Benito

This is probably the second or third time I’ve done this in the almost two years I’ve been baking sourdough bread, so I don’t feel too bad about it.  At least now I know what the dough should feel like so I can compensate, thank goodness all this baking has taught me what it should feel and look like.  I’m sure it won’t be the last time I do this, it is the typical careless mistake I will make when I’m not paying enough attention to what I’m doing.

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Looks like a great loaf, I bet it tasted even better. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Gerhard, yes it was a tasty loaf of bread.  The black sesame seeds really compliment the Kamut as they do semolina. 

Benny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

TOM CAT'S KAMUT/SEMOLINA FILONE

 

SOURDOUGH 'POOLISH':

  • Bread Flour 140g

  • Water 123g

  • Starter 22g (10g flour + 12g water) 

 

DOUGH:

  • Wholegrain Kamut Flour 200g

  • Pasta Flour 100g (50:50 durum:bread)

  • Water 205g + 55g

  • Poolish: All of the above

  • Salt 9g

  • Sesame seeds

Total flour = 450g

Total Water = 395g

 

PROCEDURE: 

  • The night before baking, mix the poolish and ferment 12-14 hours.

  • Mix the flour and water; autolyse in the fridge overnight. 

  • Add the poolish to the dough and combine. Then add the salt and knead till medium gluten formation. Bulk ferment till ready, about 3-4 hours, giving the dough a stretch and fold periodically. 

  • Shape the dough and apply the sesame seeds. Final proof till ready; about 1 hour 20 minutes. 

  • Transfer the dough to the preheated oven and bake with steam for 15 minutes, then continue to bake another 30 minutes or so until the bread is well-cooked. (Golden-brown color, hollow thump on the bottom and internal temperature of 205F.

  • Cool completely before slicing.

This is one very tasty loaf. My first time making Tom Cat's Semolina Filone and i'm very impressed. Next time I shall have to try it with semolina, as it is written, but as for kamut it is a winner in my book. A nice note to end on. Will quit while i'm ahead and wait for the next community bake.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nice looking loaf. Did it rise as you expected? How is the crumb? I've never used kamut flour.

Cheers,

Gavin.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Thank you Gavin. Very tasty indeed. And I'm surprised at the crumb as kamut tends to have a cake like crumb and even though it's in high percentage it has the crumb if bread flour with all the deliciousness of kamut. Bursting with flavour and it's a sure keeper. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Good looking Kamut loaf Abe, looking forward to the crumb.  Nice seeded crust and shape.

Benny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Thank you Benny. Very happy with this bake. Appearances of a bread flour sourdough but with all the flavour of a kamut bread. It's complex and very tasty. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Gorgeous crumb Abe, so nicely fermented just perfect!!

Benny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Wasn't sure how much the kamut would affect the crumb at that percentage and it was sure anise surprise. 

Thank you Benny. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Lovely looking loaf Abe! Just the crumb I expected to see when I saw it uncut, and sounds like you are enjoying the flavour, so a winner all around.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

When converting the recipe for kamut I thought perhaps the kamut will make the crumb more cake like but when handling the dough it seemed like it should be closer to a bread flour crumb. The high hydration certainly helped. Taste was a very nice surprise. But then again when the bulk ferment was completed and the dough had a really lovely aroma I just knew it was going to turn out flavourful. I will repeat the Filone recipe but with durum flour to compare. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Congrats on the grand finale!  Looks like a well executed bake.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I think this community bake is the one i've contributed the most. Most of the previous ones I only did one. Think this one is my third. Glad I tried this recipe. Have Alan to thank for that. 

justkeepswimming's picture
justkeepswimming

I should add kamu to my (rapidly growing) list of things to try. Meanwhile, the virtual taste tests will have to suffice. And they are kinder to my waist line, lol... 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

It really is a lovely grain and definitely recommend trying it. I also did that long autolyse in the fridge for the wholegrain part of the recipe. How much it added to the final loaf i'm not sure but it turned out very nicely. I prefer to have my cake and eat it so I did some extra exercise today ☺️

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Well actually, I didn't.  But it seemed like a nice way to start!  It really is a great formula once you figured out the magical addition by subtraction for the hydration!  At times, this bread seems to have its own mind about how it wants to respond to a score line.  But mostly it is just a delicious bread, and we being on the same bandwagon, know that it makes great toast.  I'm still working my way through the loaf I made after the little video I posted the other day.  Can't get enough of it!

Nice work, mate.  

BTW already have my idea down for the next CB.  But I'm not going to show my cards.  I'm surprised this CB, which looked close to being on life support week ago, has made a comeback.  And perhaps it should stay pinned to the top of the Recent Posts a little while longer.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

It was your posts, here and on your personal blog, that inspired me. And quite rightly so! It truly is a tasty loaf and definitely a keeper. It was quite a wet dough so I was in favour of proofing it till it looked like it didn't need scoring. It opened up a tad but neatly and didn't burst out of the sides. I'm going to repeat it again when I next get hold of durum flour and keep it at the correct hydration. Using wholegrain I upped it to the 'original' hydration and even then it was quite high. I can fully imagine it being far too much for durum and bread flour. 

And you did! tell me so, by praising this recipe, for which I thank you for that. Another lovely recipe makes it onto my baking repertoire.

Looking forward to the next community bake. 

CharlotteS's picture
CharlotteS

As my second community bake, I decided to try the Tom Cat Semolina which I hoped would allow the durum flavor to really shine (as compared to the Hamelman sesame semolina—which I love but in which I think the flavor of the starter and sesame overshadow the durum flavor a bit). Boy did the durum flavor come through!  Loved this loaf, especially toasted. Thank you so much for the recipe!

Benito's picture
Benito

Charlotte what a lovely bake, you must be really happy with it, well done.

Benny

CharlotteS's picture
CharlotteS

Thank you! I was pleased with the result! I definitely benefited from reading everyone’s descriptions of their bakes of this recipe. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

in & out cycles of postings on TFL over the years.  And I'm glad that its getting its due and some more exposure with this CB.  Because the results, like yours are almost always noteworthy.

Perhaps now it will be placed more in the forefront of folks' considerations when they want to bake something semolina.  A really nice bake, and thanks for posting!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Feb. 14, 2021.

Woo hoo! Progress!  

I finally made a mostly-WW durum loaf (75% Fiber Wala, 25% KABF) that is worthy of sharing with others, bake 38.3.

This particular loaf was too small to share, about 220 grams dough weight, so it will be eaten up in an hour or two.

I did three things at once, so I'm not sure which were crucial/critical. 

  • two stage hydration.
  • 25% KABF.
  • 1% nutritional yeast.

First off, this Fiber Wala durum flour needs about 89% hydration. But, it you autolyse/soak it with that much, or even 85%, you get a super-sticky paste that is near impossible to work with.

So in mini-bake 38.1 (100 grams flour), I hydrated it at 77%, and it was not sticky. This was with 2% salt in the soak. I soaked it over night, and it was still not sticky the next day. Then I slowly added water, 3 grams at a time, 5 times, resulting in +15% or 92% total.  Got a good crumb. Sorry, didn't take pics.

--

Bake 38.2, 100 grams Fiber Wala, no salt, 85% hydration up front. It was too sticky up front, so I put a little oil in the baggie that I stored it in. Next day, even stickier. Added 2% salt and still sticky, it did not firm up. Still a "paste" more than a dough.

Added 4% more water, for a total of 89%. Baked it after only a little fermentation. Sort of a decent crumb, showing that hydration was good, but poor fermentation, because I was in a hurry.

--

So here is my deduction/assumption:  The bran in this WW durum absorbs water faster than the endosperm of durum. And at a certain percentage, somewhere between 77 and 85%, the bran turns excessively sticky (low/no-bran durum never get this sticky) and then... it's as if the bran never releases the excess water.  As if the endosperm can never "take back" the excess water that the bran gobbled up.

--

Bake 38.3, pics below. This time used one of my "combo" recipes that I sometimes use for pizza dough, usually with regular WW, but now testing with durum.

75% Fiber Wala, 25% King Arthur bread flour, 2.5% whole dry chia, 2.5% ground flax, .33% instant dry yeast, 7.5% of 100% hydration starter, 1% nutritional yeast.

The procedure this time was to hydrate the Fiber Wala at 77% and after the soak, bring it up to 89%.

The soak here had everything up front, flour, water, salt, chia, flax, IDY, starter, nutritional yeast.

I think I gave it about 30 minutes rest at room temp. Then overnight in the fridge.

I assumed the KABF portion wanted 70% hydration. So keeping that fixed, the 77% to 89% hydration was calculated just on the Fiber Wala portion.  Example:

  • 120 gr FW @ 77% = 92.4 gr.
  • 40  gr KABF@ 70% = 28 gr.
  • (160 gr total flour).
  • 120 gr FW @ 12% = 14.4 gr

So for the 160 grams of flour, I used 92.4 + 28 = 120 grams water for the soak.

Then the next day, added 14.4 grams water after the soak.

The14.4 grams of water at once did make it sticky, but not as bad as when 85% or 89% had been added at once on prior bakes.

Admittedly, this assumes the KABF "stands pat" at 70%, not giving up, nor taking away water from the durum.

So, the next bake, #39, or "mini bake" 38.4, will have an overnight soak at 77%, but the added 12% will be done in two stages: +6%, an hour or so rest, then another 6%.

Whether it is absolutely needed or not, the 25% KABF and the 1% nutritional yeast will have to be played with, to determine how much they factor in.

But for 75% whole grain, this was a superb crumb. Very worthy of showing off to friends and neighbors.

My next goal, is to push/tweak this to 90% Fiber Wala. 

--

Note: there is another user who recently posted a bake with whole grain durum in Greece, or at least with Greek flour. They complained about the excess stickyness and paste like nature of the dough.  This two-stage (or three stage, doing two separate additions of water after the overnight soak) hydration process should be good news.

--

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Big leap in the crumb with this bake, good job Dave.

Benny

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Thank you Benny.

My next experiment will need to see if the same thing can be accomplished without the nutritional yeast.  And then to see what percent non-durum white bread flour is needed.

But man, this two-stage hydration insight, for whole grain durum, is what has turned the corner for me.  Without it, WW durum has to either be a minority player in the dough, or else limited to flat-breads.

If I can concoct a repeatable formula with commercial yeast, no white flour, and maybe a mix of Desi Style and Fiber Wala, for a loaf bread, I may submit it to the Brar Mills folks, for inclusion on their web site.

---

My "standard" in the past has been 90% whole grain, for my consumption; but 75% is about the max that impresses others.

I still want to tempt you to "the dark side" of 75%+ whole grain.  As a doc, you know that you should be eating bread of mostly whole grain, not mostly refined flour, for reasons of both glycemic index, and digestive system health.

And based on the consistent high quality of your bakes, I think you are ready for a new challenge, or "next step."  Admit it... you are now among the TFL "elite" bakers. Like in golf, you need a handicap to make things fair to the rest of us duffers. ;-)

 

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