The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Community Bake - Semolina/Durum and similar grain breads

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Community Bake - Semolina/Durum and similar grain breads

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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic
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TFL Community Bakes are the result of CB founder Dan.  His own creation and nurturing, to interest and help others, and in turn be helped, as we all strive to improve our baking skills and widen our baking horizons.  Kudos to him for this lasting gift for us all.

For this CB I’d like to continue to focus on a grain rather than a specific bread style, as was the original focus in the previous Deli-Rye CB.  I love semolina based breads, having grown up a stone’s throw from a few Italian bakeries, and consider the sesame semolina bread to be a foundational food on my personal food pyramid!

 

Clarification.  I refer to semolina in a generic sense.  I really am referring to durum, the finely machined version known in Italian as semola rimacinata which carries a protein of ~12%.  Semolina is too coarse and hard a grain for typical bread baking.  But there are no holds barred here in our CBs, and if you wish to bake with it as I have, feel free to experiment with the least coarse of the grinds.  I reference two short descriptions here:

 This durum wheat flour is a double ground (rimacinata) flour with very soft and fine texture. Its signature yellowish tint and resistant elastic gluten make it ideal for all extruded pastas and breads, or wherever the characteristics of semolina are desired.

Semolina is coarsely ground durum wheat (grano duro, triticum durum - a varitey of wheat) and its often used to make pasta. When it's called semola rimacinata in Italian, it refers to semolina which has been re-milled to make it finer and more suitable for bread baking.

 When I refer to “bread flour” in the below descriptions, I am employing Mr. Hamelman’s usage.  He refers to bread flour as what we generally call an AP flour.  His point of reference is the King Arthur AP Flour which has a protein level of 11.7%.

 

Whether you have access to semolina or not, perhaps you can join with bakes of what I consider to be somewhat related grains.  I have never baked with the last four on the list below, and therefore cannot offer recommendations as to how they may work out.  Experienced ancient grain bakers on TFL should have a better understanding to offer during this CB.  You will be able to bake these breads with the first three grains listed, and may be able to do so with the final four grains.  Included in the list, but not exclusive, are:
  • Semola rimacinata: Extra finely milled Durum wheat
  • Durum Atta: Indian durum similar to semola rimacinata.  Atta may refer to more than one type of wheat, look for the ingredient that says Durum.  May also contain some whole grain.
  • Tritordeum: Hybrid grain of barley and durum developed these past few decades in Spain and available in some European markets.

I am offering five differing semolina based breads, all with some unique characteristic that makes each one different from its brethren.  However only three will appear in this CB posting.  These three will also appear in the Companion Blog along with two additional suggestions.  Taken as a whole, the five carry some combination of these characteristics:

  • Semolina percentages from 40% to 100%
  • Preferment hydration percentages from 50% to 125%
  • Overall hydration percentages from 65% to 78%

For each style of bread, I provide "in house” versions, highlighting the baking prowess of our own folk.  The reference links will take you to the original author’s TFL write up, and to my Companion Blog Post with each formula.  Each formula presented is my interpretation of the bread.

One more thing: Don’t let the shapes and sizes dictate how you wish to proceed.  Feel free to experiment with boules, batards (long and normal), baguettes, filones, ficelles, dinner rolls...

Semolina "Pain au Levain".  This Jeffrey Hamelman version has a 60/40 mix of semolina/bread flour, employs a 125% hydration bread flour levain, and carries an overall hydration of 67%.

1) One of TFL’s resident Kiwis, leslieruf offers her version.

2) My own take for one of my go-to breads, on this marvelous winning delight.

 

Tom Cat Semolina Filone.  Maggie Glezer’s version of this on again/off again occasional TFL favorite will challenge you due to its very high hydration.  I found this bread difficult to wrangle, but it makes some of the finest toast I’ve ever had.  55.5/45.5 semolina/bread flour, 130% hydration Poolish, 89% overall hydration.  

NOTE: Due to a misunderstanding of American English/Transcription error, the original Tom Cat formula that previously was posted below carried an absurdly high overall 89% hydration.  Thanks to an email conversation with Abe, it was determined that the Poolish was incorrectly stated.  The corrected version is now in its place, with an Poolish hydration of 90% and an overall hydration of 75%.  The 45/55 % or AP/Semolina still remains.

1) semolina_man baked a delightful version of this bread.  

2) As does dmsnyder, David's interpretation.

Pane di Altamura/Matera. These two neighboring towns, in the heel region of the Italian peninsula, produce rather uniquely shaped (or mis-shapen) breads.  

Altamura is 100% semolina including a 66% hydration biga, with a relatively low overall hydration of 65%.  

Matera is also 100% semolina including a 50% hydration levain / lievito madre with a 66% overall hydration.

EDIT.  Build 3 above should read 150g Sem., 75g Water.

1) Our own breadforfun’s Brad did a field trip to Altamura several years ago, and reports on his experience and bake.  

2) Baker anonymous, better known as Abe, offers us his version
The fine print...
As always, the CB occupies a corner of TFL.  Created as a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills.  By no means are the formulae provided meant to be the be-all-and-end-all of the CB.  Rather, they are a framework of distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria.  I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions.  And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers.  I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!
 And as our Community Bake founder Dan said:
All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants get active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.

Here is a list of our past CBs. 

They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.
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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.

Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB *For the original postings please click the links above.  My posting of the formula write-ups, click here.
idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

If I may submit an ex post facto recent bake....

The final dough was all "Deep" brand Pani-puri semolina flour (gritty, not true flour, but fine grit) UPC 0-11433-11281-9, from Patel Brothers (same package as this: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Deep-Semolina-Pani-Puri-2-Lb/388456304 ).

Leavened with sourdough starter made with Gold Medal bread flour. Nothing measured except the salt.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66452/24th-bake11232020-semolina-chia

Benito's picture
Benito

I haven’t baked a bread with 100% semolina yet so I think I’d like to try the formula that is 100%, so Pane di Altamura it is.  I think to start I may make it just a regular batard.  I’ll review that formula and plan for a bake sometime this week, very exciting.  Thank you Alan for organizing this, it should be fun.  Hope lots of bakers join in.

Benny

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Alfanso,

Thank you so much for running this CB. I especially like the time and effort you put into the succinct descriptions. I was able to quickly narrow down my choice to run with the Hamelman because it doesn't require a poolish or biga. It seems pretty straightforward.

I'm the novice you have described in the introduction. I have baked some sourdough to a fair degree of success such that I'm excited to try some different flours and flavors.

In the spreadsheet, you reference "FF's." I'm sure it's an abbreviation for something I should know by now. I am hoping it means French Fries but I am fairly confident that it does not. Can you or someone help a brother out?

As an aside, I think you really hit the nail on the head with a separate blog and, even, an accidental discovery of a separate thread for preparations and off-comments in your alert post.

Nicely done!

Murph

Abe's picture
Abe

I think it means French Folds aka Slap and Folds.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Also referred to as Slap & Folds.  I used to do as many as 300 FFs divided by a 5 min. rest.  These days that's been narrowed down to somewhere between 50 to 90, still split by a 5 min. rest between them, and depending on how the dough feels.  Each person who decides to mix by hand will have to determine how many are appropriate for them, if mixed with FFs at all vs. any other way.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thanks, Alfanso and Abe!

I like slap and folds; they are fun and effective. Most of my recipes so far have been no-knead and stretch and folds. This bread will teach newer bakers like me to watch out for the walls and overhead cabinets because... if we are not careful, cleanup will be a bugger.

I also noticed an "LF." That must be lift and fold or stretch and fold, right?

Edit: LF = Letter Fold. I just read leslieruf's post. Is that almost like a coil fold?

Al, I misspelled your name in my earlier post. My apologies. I corrected it.

I used to think that 300 slap and folds was a crazy number but once you have done it, you can easily rip through that in 5-10 minutes. Especially when you are only doing 100 or less in a single period. And then resting for five minutes.

Abe, you, Al, and everyone here are so helpful. Thank you for welcoming newer bakers into the fold.

I'm very excited to get involved and upping my game!

Murph

Abe's picture
Abe

Got plenty of Einkorn flour and while I would love to do a durum flour bread the lockdown dictates otherwise. Plus, I really should use up what I have before buying more and I've got a lot of Einkorn to get through. Don't get me wrong I love Einkorn but would have like to have focused on durum being the star of this Community Bake. 

I'm a firm fan of Alan's Semolina with Fennel, Golden Raisins and Pine Nuts recipe which can be found in the formula write-ups. Always a pleasure to make.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Going for a golden semolina with einkorn bake. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I mentioned that I never baked with Einkorn, among a few others, but my limited understanding is that grains like Einkorn & Emmer have differing hydration "requirements" than for our more typical grains.  One needs more, one needs less hydration than, for example, an AP flour.

Perhaps if you have the experiences with these, you could help others (like me!) understand how to anticipate overall hydrations.

Folks listen to you!

Alan

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is that they take longer to hydrate or soak up water, give them the time to do that and a good outcome gets easier.  Might do a poolish or soak the total flour.  Im leaning toward 70% semolina and 30% Einkorn, then toss into my Couronne Bordelaise banneton.  🎶 Couronne, Couronne! 🎶

alfanso's picture
alfanso
gavinc's picture
gavinc

I decided to bake Hamelman’s Semolina Bread (Pain au Levain). The recipe has an optional 5% toasted sesame seed inclusion and as I love toasted sesame seeds, I went with them. I recalculated for a 750-gram dough to suit by banneton.

The bread flour I use is 11.5% protein and close to Hamelman’s recommendation. The formula calls for 40% bread flour and 60% durum flour. Durum flour is not available where I live, so I stone-milled semolina on its finest setting to make the durum flour.

I hand mixed the dough to moderate gluten development. The dough at the start of the mix was very lax but soon took on a regular feel while performing stretch and folds. At the end of kneading, 15 minutes, the dough felt nice and smooth considering the sesame seeds were visible. Bulk fermented for two hours with one-fold at 1 hour. Pre-shaped and bench rest for 20 minutes. Shaped into an oblong and final proof in a banneton seam side up for 2 hours at 25C/76F. The rise filled the banneton as per usual which gave me confidence that the bake would go well.

I baked the loaf at 238C/460F in a pre-steamed oven and steam for the first 10 minutes. Finished in a drying oven. The oven spring was particularly good with the loaf taking on a golden colour. I reduced the temperature to 215C/419F after 15 minutes and baked the full 40 minutes. The baked bread had a wonderful nutty aroma straight from the oven.

Tasting: The sesame seeds introduced a nice nutty flavour and the durum flour a pleasant taste quite different than any other bread I have baked. The crumb was light and enjoyable. I would make this bread again.

I have Hamelman’s book Edition 2 and it varies slightly from the instructions here. I did not include an autolyse and did not retard the final proof as that was optional. The formula is the same, save for the sesame seed inclusion.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

That looks excellent!  This was the recipe I thought I wanted to try, and seeing that confirmed it!

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Rock solid bake.  Way to kick things into high gear from the starting gate.  As beautiful as the finished product in the first picture, I rather like seeing the image of the raw dough with the score, just sitting and awaiting its fate.

I think we share the same feeling, that this is one of our favorite breads, certainly mine.  But I like mine dressed with seeds on the outside, whereas you keep the seeds inside.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks. Yes, this is now definitely a favourite. I thought about applying the sesame seeds to the outside, but last time I did it with caraway seeds on the Deli Rye, I sprayed them all over the place when slicing. I'll give it a try next bake as I do like the appearance. This bread has a wonderful flavour that is so different from the other regular bakes I do. 

Cheers,

Gavin.

Benito's picture
Benito

That is stunning Derek, both crust and crumb are perfect.  I love bread with seeds inside or outside.  Although they are definitely messier when on the crust the extra toasting they get while baking adds much more to the flavour of the bread.

Benny

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hey Benny. Who's Derek? I assume you meant me, so thank you for your kind words.

Cheers,

Gavin

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Benny getting his Aussies mixed up!

Benito's picture
Benito

You all type the same 😝😂

Benito's picture
Benito

Oops sorry Gavin and Derek, obviously confused yesterday.  But not confused about that semolina loaf which is still outstanding Gavin.

Benny

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Cheers, I thought it was funny. I thought you may have been into the hospital brandy.  Haha.

Benito's picture
Benito

Hospitals used to have beer but I don’t recall any brandy. Ha Ha.

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Here you go Benny to aid your recovery!

Collectors items now

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Well who knew, thanks Derek.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Gavininc,

That's fantastic! How'd you do that so quickly?!?

That's my bread. Look at that crumb! Proofed all the way to the bottom.

Did you shape that tightly or "just enough?"

The rise is so strong... you didn't bake that in a pan??

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks Murph. I shaped in my usual way, which produces a nice tight oblong. It was baked on a stone.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

That is an amazing bake Gavin, and very quick! You must have started before the actual CB was opened, after the announcement :)

Beautiful crust and crumb, very even. And I love the colour of the grigne!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks. I was experimenting milling the semolina when alfonso published the CB, so I started immediately. I live on the other side of the world, so the time zone was in my favour.

Cheers

 

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

Bet it tastes great

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Don't you love how you can tell from the score photo that it was going to bake up perfectly? And it did. It looks quite perfect. I'm with you on the toasted sesame seeds. I bet it tastes as good as it looks.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thank you, AG. I've produced my share bricks over the years, so I know when the dough is good to go or bin :). The toasted sesame seeds lifted the flavour to new heights. 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Gavin,

For *me,* your crumb is perfect. Just absolutely perfect. In terms of openness.

I would like to ask you and others, what is *your* perfect open crumb?

Me? I tend to slice my bread into 9.53 mm (3/8 inch) slices. I would rather not see daylight through the crumb... For me... For the way *I* mostly use bread.

This means I should like to see an even distribution of 6.35 mm (1/4 inch) holes to call the crumb "open" or "perfect."

Gavin, if I saw something other than your crumb, I would be crestfallen. Anyone in this bake with an otherwise crumb... I would be hard pressed to compliment.

So what's an "open crumb?" Why should someone praise a bread that they would rather not have?... unless they knew what the baker was trying to produce?

If I see a bread with big holes in it... daylight shining through it... I would think it's under-proofed and undesirable. To *me,* it would be a failure.

And you say?...

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Crumb structure is a personal preference. It also depends on the type of bread being baked, process, techniques and flour type. In this bake, I liked what I achieved. However, large open holes would not suit me here. Baguettes and ciabatta are a different matter; I like larger holes. Rye is much denser and the crumb is more closed. If the baker achieved a crumb that they intended I give them accolades for the effort and skill required. A good rule to follow is "if you don't like what you see, scroll on past". I usually like to say something encouraging.

I like to slice my Vermont sourdough 12mm as it's great toasted. Sandwich bread  8-10mm.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Gavin.

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Gavin,

"If the baker achieved a crumb that they intended I give them accolades for the effort and skill required. A good rule to follow is "if you don't like what you see, scroll on past". I usually like to say something encouraging."

Perfect response and my point exactly.

Do you think a baker should critique their own bread's crumb or declare what they are looking to achieve? Or... should the recipe state what kind of crumb you should expect to achieve?

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Here, they usually say what went well and what didn't. The forge of learning.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Gavin,

I like how you think.

For *me*... in this bake... that I will try this weekend... I will use durum flour with an even distribution of small and large holes proofed throughout the bread. The crust will follow. Taste will be characteristic of the standard durum bread.

The largest hole will be no larger than 6.35 mm (1/4 inch). The smallest hole will show evidence of sufficient fermentation.

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Good luck Murph! In my experience avoiding a few occasional larger holes is not easy.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I am late to the party but enjoying all the bakes. well done

Leslie

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi!

I'm missing something with the Hamelman formula. Can you help?

The final dough shows
199.7g levain ÷ 503g flour = 40% preferment

The middle section, prefermented flour, shows 15%

If I account for just the flour in the levain and a 100% hydration starter, I get close at 19%

I'm guessing the 3% seed starter must be even firmer than 100% hydration? Or am I overlooking something (that is probably insignificant in the end)?

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

65 g flour in the preferment divided by 431 g total flour is 15%. Seed is not included into the total calculation, as commented in the table.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

dup 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

@Murph:  It's "Baker terminology"

Total formula = levain + final dough.

"final" in this sense does not mean "grand total". Final means what is added to the pre-ferment.

It's tricky. Some things are added horizontally, and some are added vertically.  

I have to add the numbers in my head to see the relationship.

If you're not a "numbers person", it takes practice before you can "see" it.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The middle column shows the Levain as a whole.  The Total Flour Prefermented % = all flours in the levain / total flour in the formula. 15% = 88.8 / 591.7 (or 591.7 * 15% = 88.8).

The seed starter is the same 125% in this formula as is the Levain.  In the Jeffrey Hamelman world, the amount of levain created is "always" that seed starter amount more than what will be used in the final dough.  Why?  Because in his production world tomorrow when you make the same levain again, you will need that same starter amount for your levain.  217.5 - 199.7 = 17.8, which will become tomorrow's starter.  This perpetuates the starter "forever".  

Of course when we are baking at home for relatively insignificant amounts of bread and not on a daily schedule, this really isn't what we do.  But in a bakery where the same breads are produced every day, the starter goes into the mix today with enough left over for tomorrow.

There are a handful of ways that a formula can be represented.  I follow the Bread Bakers Guild of America version, which can be found and is described in detail in an on-line pamphlet with a search for the same.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

 Yes, YES! There it is... thanks.

You're right, it can be tricky but not so bad when someone shows me how the formula reads up and down, and back and forth. Also, very helpful to be shown how some levain is reserved for tomorrow's starter.

Ilya, I'm doing the top formula. I don't see your numbers showing up. Were you looking at one of the other ones?

Thank you all so very much! (Looking around...) I'm not in Kansas anymore... you folks are pretty sharp!

I like that you prefer the BBGA method. That is why I was asking. I wanted everything to add up before I got too sloppy/comfortable and started making things up on my own.

Can I ask a couple of other questions ( <-- after that one?)?

When it says back to retard, I'm sure that means for another 10-12 hours. Also, on the levain build, my assumption is for four hours between each step where I would be looking for a doubling each time.

Am I far wrong?

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Whoopsie, I was looking at Gavin's post - but it's the same formula, just scaled down a bit.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Assuming that one's refrigerator (just about none of us own Retarders) is set below 40dF total retard time can vary from as little as 10 hrs to as much as ~18 hrs or perhaps longer for standard levain doughs.  I decide how long to retard based on my schedule more than the dough's schedule as long as I hit that total retard time period.  I'm not picky and I don't have a professional schedule to abide by nor customers.

Levain builds are subject to one's ambient environment, flour selection, hydration, and quality of the existing starter/levain.  Everything is is taken into account and one size won't fit all.  And if you do three consecutive countertop builds expect the third to double in a much shorter time than the first build.

It comes down to knowing your: formula, ingredients, kitchen, oven, ambient temperature, technique/skill set.  Not necessarily in that order.

albacore's picture
albacore

I always find this way of calculating quantities excluding the seed to be confusing.

I would have thought that in a sourdough production environment you would build a big pot of levain, possibly overnight, cool it down somewhat, and then keep dipping into this levain pot throughout the day for your main doughs.

Then you would build another pot of levain for the following day with some of the random amount of leftover (OK you would probably have taken this out first so you didn't inadvertently use it all!).

On the other hand, it does make sense to make a bit more levain than you need to allow for production losses - moisture, gas, container and utensil residue.

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe

Build enough starter for a few levain builds and keep dipping into my starter to build a levain each time I wish to bake. This way the levain is always like a newly refreshed starter with a nice balance of flavour. Who mentioned building a pool of levain to keep dipping into? Doing it that way you'd have to be making the same bread (or pretty close to) each time. Whereas vice versa and one can use one starter for many different breads. 

Building a little more levain is also a good way to keep a starter as that bit extra can be starter for the next batch. Another way of keeping a starter instead of it always being separate.

albacore's picture
albacore

Abe, I was thinking more about a commercial bakery environment. I'm sure the same levain would do for most of the breads you were going to make that day. I think having multiple levains on the go would be pretty tricky - and unnecessary.

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe

Just your comment Lance. That's make sense although I can see them planning so many of one type of bread and building enough levain to keep them going and so too for another if it requires a very different type of levain. 

Benito's picture
Benito

When I first started out and I was baking the same bread over and over for practice, I just used the leftover levain as my starter.  Now that I keep a rye starter, I do similar to  you Abe and make enough starter for my bakes for 1 week each time using some starter to build each levain.  This works well for me and if I don’t have enough starter for a levain build that I didn’t plan well for, I just do a 2 step levain build to make enough.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Abe,

I think I'm doing the same as you.

I'm doing the top recipe, the Hamelman. I converted my starter to 125% hydration. It matches the levain. I'll give the starter a quick 1:1:1 refresh just before my bake and use it to raise the dough.

My revelation is how easy it is to mix the starter by hand and how easy it is to clean up afterwards.

If I were a busy baker, I would like both of these features because the benefits are less wear on the mixers, easier equipment cleanups, and fewer clogged drains due to the higher viscosity.

I plan to keep my starter at 125% hydration. I would never have thought of this had I not gotten into this bake.

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

FYI, if you feed a 125% hydration starter 1:1:1, it won't be 125% hydration anymore.

I'm also exploring the 125% hydration levain now, but I wouldn't keep my starter at this hydration, because it doesn't grow much when refreshed, so it's more difficult to tell when it's peaked.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Ilya,

Just an FYI from recent experience... in case you are curious...

I just fed my first 125% hydration starter. It doubled and more in my expected 12 hours from a 4g seed, 50g water, and 40g all-purpose King Arthur flour.

I always use 40g flour for whatever reason. Habit, I guess. If rises and fits in the 9 oz. disposable plastic cups (that I reuse a half-dozen times). My starters used to be 85% hydration with a 50/50% wheat/AP flour (but I'm not too picky about what I feed).

The 4g seed came from a once-converted starter.

Anything higher than 125% hydration and I should consider yeast water. Which I am thinking of building. Because yeast water. You know?

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Interesting, maybe you keep it at lower temperature, so it's more viscous? I keep my starter/levain at 24C.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

I keep mine at 22-23C (73F). Seems to be fine. I'm really loving it. Super simple clean up and mixing. I know my 4g seed will double in 12 hours with 50g water and 40g AP flour. I can set my watch to it.

Even if it didn't double, I know it would be time to feed and take it from there.

But... do what you like. Water is not nutritious. Flour is the important thing. Feed the amount of flour you need and use water for your own convenience. 

Murph

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I like the Hamelman concept and for a bakery it makes sense in order to perpetuate the levain.  And so that's how my spreadsheet usually reads.  However, in my little corner of the baking world, I just keep a few hundred grams of levain in the back of the fridge, and perform between 1-3 builds from that for the next bake.  Any leftover goes back into the container, mixed in with the existing levain, and then back to chill.

I pretty much violate the levain build routine that is in the formula, just winging (not whinging) it.  Typical scenarios might be to take some refrigerated 100% hydration AP levain and add equal amounts of F&W to it.  Could be 1:1:1 for a first build then 2:1:1 for the next, or any oddball combination as long as I abide by keeping the levain at 100% hydration.  

In a real world bakery, they probably could never get away with such shenanigans.  But on paper I like the way it plays out.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Alfanso,

I've read durum as bringing a sweetness to a bread. Others say a nutty flavor. When I read sweetness with sourdough, my mind flew to a sweet and sour bread. Which I would like to try.

With your starter maintenance routine, I would think you are bringing a fair bit of tang to the table.

In fear of hijacking the thread, I should still like to ask if you are getting tang with your starter, which flours are you using in it (many, I hope), and how sluggish is your first couple of builds?

If I'm far off topic, just a mild admonishment to all and sundry and a DM with answers are well appreciated. 

Thanks,

Murph

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and typically don't really like, at most, more than a hint of sour tang.  So I don't try for that nor generally achieve it. I use levain as a leveaning agent that brings flavor and staying power to a loaf.  

Depends on how long my levain has languished in the refrigerator that dictates a first build.  If it hasn't been touched in a few weeks the first build is longer.  Typical is 6-8 hours at 78dF room temp for 1st build, as few as 3-4 for a 3rd build.

KA AP flour.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

I posted a duplicated. Darn! Sorry.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

It just so happens that my first first semolina bake was a few weeks ago after seeing several member posts of various versions using semolina that looked so appealing. The golden color was quite captivating so I ordered the flour Abelbreadgallery had mentioned in this post. Most if not all of the semolina grown in Montana is shipped to Italy which doesn't explain why I haven't seen it on the shelves of the local markets since the pandemic. The Kamut that is grown here which I have used is apparently related to semolina but doesn't seem to yield that golden yellow color.

I followed the Hammelman recipe to the letter except that I upped the hydration as I usually do for all of his formulas. In this case it was 75% and I used My Bosch mixer adhering to his mix times. The bread was a winner and it makes nice toast and I will be making it again soon. I was wondering why the same proportion of semolina couldn't be used when making the levain. 

I look forward to seeing everyones bakes and learning more about semolina/durum.

Semolina Bread

This bread loves sunshine

semolina crumb

 

Benito's picture
Benito

That is a pair of beauts Don.  Love the sesame seed crust and the gorgeous golden crumb.  I wonder why so many of the recipes are relatively low hydration.  I was looking through a pile of recipes for semolina breads and most have hydration’s in the 60’s yet I’ve read that semola rimacinata hydrates very very well.  I think I found a recipe I will try that has higher hydration and is still 100% semolina.

Benny

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

and Allan's among others to chase down the flour and have a go at it. We can always count on 100% from you.

Don

Benito's picture
Benito

That’s nice to know I was able to inspire you!  Well you’ve inspired me to try a higher hydration semolina batard!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Maybe it's the lighting, but the crumb looks to me like it has a very nice pale golden color. Very nice bake with a nice crumb. I've never used Khorasan/Kamut and I've never made a high percentage durum/semolina bread (just sometimes throw in a handful for flavor) so I agree that it will be interesting to watch these bakes and see how the various flours compare.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

In fact the sunlight somewhat bleached how golden/yellow the crumb actually was. I intended to make only bread with this flour but the pasta I made from it was superb and I learned a lot about it how transforms from grainy to smooth as silk while kneading it for noodles. It is highly extensible and seems to handle extra water quite well. I plan on upping the hydration even more next time and doing a longer autolyse to see where the limits are. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Nice submission.  

Rules?   We don't need no stinkin' rules!  No reason why you can't swap out the bread flour for semolina, I've done it, just another thing to do.  I've also changed the hydration of the levain as well as PFF%.  As long as I abide by the exchanges in flours.  All in a day's work and experiment.  

There are other bakers who use higher hydrations as well.   Here's one I did by The Weekend Baker at 72.5% hydration. With Tritordeum.

Well, this is encouraging.  Last CB as well as this CB I was wondering about whether and how fast the CB would get off the ground.  Looks like a nice start with some true interests.  Sadly Don, Gavin beat you by a half Earth rotation!

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Wow! Look at all the "names!" This is one CB I'm glad I jumped into! Not only are these some solid bakers but I've been following them and all of them are so super helpful! I'm going to fast-track the learning curve with this one! Any other "newer" bakers here?

What I really like is the grain. This will be my first foray into something beyond AP, bread, and whole wheat. I'm excited. Thanks!

"Rules." Who needs 'em? (Well... except me.)

I'm doing the top formula, the Hamelman. I'm a bit stuck on the bulk ferment line. Do I bulk for two hours and then after the two hours wait another forty minutes to do my first stretch and fold (the letter fold; LF)?

Or, now that I'm typing and thinking about this... after my last slap and fold, wait/rest 40 minutes for my first stretch and fold, then wait 80, and wrap up at 110 for the retard. Probably the latter, right.

Somebody else commented about how my own environment will dictate a fair bit of this. Understood and thanks. It reminds me to be absolutely crystal about my note-taking as I am sure my first couple of bakes will scream for improvement.

Thank you for bearing with me.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Bulk 2 hours is suggesting the total bulk fermentation time.  40 mins into bulk do first stretch and fold, 80 mins next stretch and fold etc.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Very nice bake. Lovely colour and crumb.

Cheers,

Gavin.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

and great crumb! amazing how much flavour he sesame seeds add.

Leslie

 

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man


Using semolina rimacinata inbound via USPS.  Proabably will bake on the weekend or early next week. I will use my latest take on the Tom Cat’s formula, with a reduced hydration of approx 70%.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Based on the formula posted here, if you drop the hydration to 70% and keep the same everything else, then the autolysed flour is 40%, way too clumpy.  What else are you considering changing?  Also with a 19% drop in overall hydration when does it stop becoming a Tom Cat and become a semolina_man?

Since I don't proof in a banneton or other hard sided type of vessel, I found the dough too liquid, beating my standard ciabatta hydration by 10%.

thanks, Alan

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

Yes, it's been noted multiple times on this site that the formula on this site attributed to Maggie Glezer for Tom Cat's Semolina Filone likely has an error leading to excessive hydration.  Strictly following the formula hydration and using "semolina", and not semolina rimacinata, leads to soup-like dough.   The word "gloppy" is (was?) written in the original posting on this site, years ago. 

 

Using rimacinata and reduced hydration gives equivalent flavor and far more enjoyable baking experience.  I don't bake for aesthetics, although good aesthetics sometimes results.  I bake for flavor, enjoyment and nutrition. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

And now, it'll be time to revisit the twice attempted bread.  It isn't seem quite so possible to deal with 89% hydration filone, but I was willing to give it the old college try - twice!  I'll now give it a run at your recommended 70% and see where it takes me.  And then I'll be happy to update the formula sheet on the post.

I had the experience of mixing semolina #1 for dough a pair of times early on, and then learned of the distinction, which I've abided by ever since.  Even so, the bread came out completely acceptable.

Alan

alfanso's picture
alfanso

is by Scott Gibson https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64075/maggie-glezers-tom-cats-semolina-filone-error-formula, and he has the hydration too low at 370 when it is 400.  135 Poolish + 60 (the 1/4 cup) + 205 (final dough).

Your posting, which references David's, brings me back to the same formula I translated into BBGA format at the top of this CB post, 89% hydration.

I've looked at Varda, David, Franko, you, Will, Wayne, and all of the comments.  No other reference.  Can you please point me to a few other sources on TFL that I may have missed.

Thanks, alan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I have just recently managed find some Kamut and just this week scored some Caputo Semola Rimancinata - now just have to decide what to bake.  Thank you Alan for featuring that bake of mine - have to see if I can better it 😊 - I will ponder the options and bake in a few days

Happy Community Baking everyone 

Leslie

yozzause's picture
yozzause

My Effort 50% Caputo Integrale and 50%  Granoro Semola Rimacinata https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67165/cb-semolina

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

I went with a simple approach. No need to get crazy.

Made a levain in the morning, mixed the dough in the afternoon and retarded in the fridge for 12 hours

60% Semolina flour (Bobs)

40% Bread Flour (HEB Brand)

73% Hydration

Nothing difficult about it. Dough was easy to work with.

Nice color and smell. I haven't tasted yet, but i'm sure it will be good. I've made it before and it is uniquely delicious.

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful loaf texas_loafer.  Lovely crumb, crust and ear, very successful.  

Benny

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nice bake. I love the colour and the crumb shot.

Cheers,

Gavin

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Very Nice bake there Texas I'm sure it tastes as good as it looks!

regards Derek

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

the crumb is great too! well done 

Leslie

Benito's picture
Benito

**Edited Jan 21/21 to add crumb photos**

Up until today, the only time I’d worked with semolina was using about 50-60% for baguettes and I loved the flavour with sesame seed crust.  I didn’t want to reproduce a batard with the same composition so I thought I would try to put together a formula myself and see if it might work.

I thought I had read that semolina hydrates very well, so I thought I’d aim for 80% hydration if the dough seemed ready to absorb that much during mixing adding the levain.  I also remember Michael Wilson saying that he had the best results with this flour when he developed the gluten well.  I wasn’t in the mood for machine mixing and thought I’d see if I could do the flour justice totally by hand.

Levain build

1:6:6

12 g starter, 70 g water, 70 g Semola rimacinata 

ferment 74-76ºF overnight.

Saltolyse Overnight build

429 g Semola rimacinata 

313 g water cold 

15 g hold back water for bassinage

143 g levain

10 g salt

In the morning add 143 g levain to the saltolysed dough, poking and then pinching and finally stretch and folding.  Gradually add 15 g of water.  Rubaud x 5 mins.

Then 250 slap and folds.

Bulk at 78ºF 

30 mins bench letter fold - set up aliquot jar.

30 mins lamination

30 mins coil fold

30 mins coil fold - window pane achieved

Allow to rest at 78ºF until aliquot jar shows 60% and the dough is appropriately jiggly.

Final Shaping as batard, then transfer to wet towel seam side up to dampen the outside.

Transfer to a plate with black and white sesame seeds (toasted)

Transfer to unfloured banneton seam side up.

Bench rest until aliquot jar 70% rise then start cold retard 7 hours.

Preheat oven 500ºF with dutch oven inside.

Remove dough from banneton score and transfer to dutch oven on a parchment sheet.  Spritz some water into dutch oven.

Bake lid on dropping temp to 450ºF for 20 mins.

Drop temp to 420ºF continue to bake lid on for 10 mins.

Remove lid and remove bread from dutch oven and continue to bake on the rack for 15-25

Let cool several hours before slicing.

It is getting late and I have an early day so I won’t be able to slice this until tomorrow to see if the crumb is alright.  I’ll cross my fingers on that.

Finally sliced this loaf and what I will say is that 100% semolina really brings out the flavour of that grain, I love it.  The crust covered with sesame seeds are just such a hearty addition and I would highly recommend it.

I will say that I degassed the dough with all the handling of the dough to apply the seeds.  I will have to try a different method because I think this would have been a much more open crumb had it not been for that degassing.  The dough had become quite flat by the time all the seeds were on and I transferred it to the banneton and stitched it close to try to regain some tension.  As a last minute attempt to ensure it held its shape, I also placed the dough while in the banneton in the freezer for 30 mins before scoring and baking.

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

How you got a smooth lame cut through all the seeds!

Benito's picture
Benito

Firm swift slice without hesitation. I think scoring seeded baguettes has given me a lot of practice, more than I realized.

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

I would have guessed Samurai sword... to go with that Hibiki Whiskey you have hiding back there.

Benito's picture
Benito

LOL I’m amazed at how many people have recognized and mentioned that bottle of Hibiki Harmony.  It is hard to come by in Toronto, that’s for sure.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

A handsome loaf. I love the mix of sesame seeds on the outside and the oven spring. The gringe is a nice golden colour. I think you were wise to mix by hand as Hamelman warns about durum flour having a tendency to break down during mixing. Looking forward to the crumb shot and tasting notes.

Cheers,

Gavin

 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

You gotta be happy with that Benny it looks particularly handsome as Gavin says very well done regards Derek

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Derek!  I’m totally happy with the bloom of this loaf.  I’ll be slicing it at dinner tonight so I’ll update then.  Hopefully the crumb doesn’t disappoint.

Benny

Benito's picture
Benito

I wasn’t aware of that Gavin, I got lucky then.  Good to know that characteristic of durum.

Benny

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve added the crumb photos now to my original post.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The colors are striking. The finished bake looks alive like a lava flow. I think the crumb is is quite nice for a 100% whole grain loaf. Nice job for just winging it. It’s peculiar that some of the crumb photos look like white bread  while others have the yellow color. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Don. The crumb is actually quite yellow more so than two of those photos show. I guess my photo was adjusting the white balance due to the LED lighting and got it wrong. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I like the combo of Black and Tan seeds, lends a "dramatic" look.  More beautiful crumb and grigne.

Congrats on this bake, and knowing you, one of many coming this way soon!

Alan

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Alan, I am quite taken by the combination of the white and black sesame seeds on the crust and the yellow crumb (my lighting whitened the crumb it is much more yellow than the photos show).  I quite like the stronger flavour of the 100% semolina.  It does handle initially very differently from other flours that I have worked with before.  At first it doesn’t feel like it will come together.  By the morning after the saltolyse, it had already started to develop some strength and smoothness.  I later read somewhere that semola rimacinata doesn’t take well to a long autolyse, but at least in this case with the salt added, it seemed to be beneficial.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

The mixed sesame seed coat over that light golden crumb... beautiful to look at and, I imagine, to eat. More of your usual inspired (and inspiring) work!  That crumb is pretty much everything one could wish for.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

That loaf looks fantastic inside and out!  Congrats on what looks like a great bake.  I'm humbled already and I haven't even started my contribution to the CB.  :-)

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Wow! Right out of the gate, we have some of the most amazing breads!

What is striking is the tendency to stray from the recipes with add-ins and different flours. I think that is a good thing!

It shows the skill of the bakers and their boredom, really, with the ordinary. Why bake "just a semolina," when there all these other things just sitting around in the pantry screaming to be used.

There was a baker who shrugged, "nothing special, handled as expected," or something to that effect. It proves the point of a Community Bake: Get experienced and versatile enough so that baking is fun and not a chore.

I will be baking this weekend. Thank you for sharing what you are doing. It is fascinating to read!

Murph

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Converted my favored Scott MeGee based ciabatta formula to be 50/50 AP/Semolina

First run was with all AP levain.  Proofed seam side down, baked seam side up.

 

Second run was with all Semolina levain.  Proofed seam side up, baked seam side down.

A little disappointed in lack of my usual ciabatta oven spring, and the crumb on both of these is not noteworthy, no matter how tasty the bread is.  In retrospect I probably should have shaped only two ciabatte instead of the three for 1250g of dough.

For comparison, here is a 50/50 from Sept. 2019 when I was still experimenting with the tritordeum flour I brought  back from Barcelona (still have some in abeyance).  All AP levain.  I think that you can understand my disappointment with these two recent bakes.

Crumb shot added

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Or maybe and Alley Cat Semolina. Some bakes just don't go as planned so we end up herding cats. I am going to go by the book next time and try the Tom Cat and if ends up gloppy it will be ciabatta. Will the Pie King had an outstanding version recently at 89% so I have to try it.

Benito's picture
Benito

Alan, as Don has said and I know you agree, things definitely don’t always go as planned.  Sometimes the best made plans still don’t work out.  The ciabatta you show certainly look good on the outside, you didn’t post any crumb photos so hard to know what the crumb looks like.  I’m sure you’ll make it work if you persist with the idea of semolina ciabatta, you certainly do for baguettes.  As you know, I never did make a decent ciabatta, the one I think would have worked got totally attached to the couche and the degassing was really severe as a result.  So I can certainly relate to things that don’t go as planned.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

These typically have a more pronounced barrel shape.

thanks, Alan 

Benito's picture
Benito

You made it sound a lot worse.  That is still better than any ciabatta that I've made.  I agree it isn't up to your usual high level, but it is a different flour to work with and I suspect for different breads it will require different handling.

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Here's our special 🇺🇸 Inauguration Week 🇺🇸 + Durum CB rendition of our weekly 2kg miche. 

Durum CB Miche

Durum CB Miche Crumb

60% fresh-milled durum, stiff-ish levain at 60% hydration and a 75% hydration dough.  3 hr 84˚F bulk, o/n fridge retard, 1 hr 90˚F proof.  I can live without the flying ears but the crumb works for our needs.  Nice silky dough, elasticity-challenged as expected for T. durum.  Better for pasta and pizza imho, but there it is.  Flavor somewhat insipid compared to our usual T. aestivum.

Thanks to Alan for his energetic CB hosting.

Tom

Benito's picture
Benito

Tom great oven spring for 2 kg of dough, very impressive.  I love the crumb you achieved as well which is awesome for whole durum no?

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Agree with Benny (it's in the contract).  The entire miche looks great with a wonderful open crumb.  There are times when the grain has a sweet taste, other times a nutty taste.  And sometimes the taste can be a tad insipid (like most of what I write on TFL).

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Well don’t be giving all the secrets away Alan.

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

@ Alan - There was an event in DC this week, kind of like the one you joined on 1/6 (fur + horns -- that getup didn't fool me) but this week's was for grownups.  And something about its Unity/Inclusion theme kindled some heretofore scarce Join The CB warmth chez moi.  So je suis ici.  Mind you, had Lady G sung during the baguette CB, I don't think I'd have posted 60% whole milled baggies.  I've always thought ww baguettes tragically miss the point.  Or maybe it was the synchrony between Gaga's modest broach and durum's golden hue.  Discuss among yourselves.

@ Benny - Thanks.  I've baked worse with whole milled durum.  I don't know how those pugliese achieve such shredability with durum, although it's mostly rimacinata there I'm sure.  Only us hippie yanks would think of putting wholegrain grano duro in bread, much less as the main ingredient.  Guilty as charged.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

To see your bakes and read your words. Thanks for joining in.

Don

If only we're brave enough to be it. 

MikeSK's picture
MikeSK

Hello Tom, Your Durum bread and crumb looks great. Can you post the whole recipe? Thank you. Mike

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Here ya go Mike.

 

MikeSK's picture
MikeSK

Hello Tom, Thank you for your recipe on your Durum bread. I see you use AP flour instead of Bread flour. Can you tell me why? I will try using both and see which one i like better. Best to you. Mike 

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Mike,

The simple reasons I use AP instead of "bread" flour are that the latter is not conveniently available to us here in bulk without mailorder and I'm not a skilled, demanding or discriminating enough baker to strictly prefer one over the other for most of our fairly uncreative and minimally varied bread baking.  So my going with a lower (~11.5%) protein flour wasn't a choice so much as a default.  My intuition about higher protein flours is that they're best for specialized uses such as bagels and less valuable for baking traditional hearth loaves, regardless of other flours involved and that dough handling and other factors can make up that 3% protein difference fairly readily.  I could be very wrong in that.  If you have both AP and "bread" flour on hand, it would be instructive for you as well as for all who read your post if you do the A/B comparison and share the results here.

Regarding starters (you asked via pm) -- I'm just as lazy about that.  I maintain one starter at 80% hydration -- a compromise between "liquid" [100%] and "stiff" [<60%] that also happens to be the hydration of 95% of the doughs that go into our oven.  My assumption is that if I've selected for a population of bugs genetically or epigenetically adapted to that hydration in the starter, then they'll perform effortlessly without having to adapt on the fly in our 80% hydration doughs.  Whether that biologist's intuition is foolishly inappropriate for baking best practice, I may blissfully never know.  FYI, I maintain our starter on 30% whole wheat, 7% whole spelt, 3% whole rye (all home-milled) and 60% AP.  It's a higher wholegrain version of the late Gerard Rubaud's favored starter feed.

Finally, I always grow the levain for a bake in the flours milled and mixed for the main dough of the bake.  I assume most bakers do this but again, I could be wrong.  As above, I want the bugs to hit the ground running when they are called upon to raise a dough.

Hope that helps.

Tom

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Baked a bread in the style of the Hamelman formula provided in the first post. Had to deviate slightly, due to flour availabilty: I had just under 100g of semola remacinata left, and half a bag of pasta flour that is 50% durum. So combining that I could make a ~60% durum 900g loaf, but had to use the 50% durum pasta flour in the levain instead of bread flour. I included 30 g toasted sesame seeds. Here is my formula: https://fgbc.dk/181m

I almost never use hydration <70%, so it was refreshing to have a non-sticky dough which lended itself perfectly to traditional kneading. I also did some stretch&folds in the beginning of bulk, but I'd say they were more short kneads, since the dough was not at all stretchy.

I tried using the aliquot jar, and this time it worked nicely. With such low hydration dough I think it wasn't very precise because it grew much more in the center forming a meniscus. So I ended bulk somewhere after 50% increase. Then shaped into a batard and coated with sesame seeds. It went directly into the fridge for ~24 hours due to my schedule constraints. Interestingly, it didn't seem to relax in the fridge at all and retained it's shape perfectly with a perhaps very slight increase in size.

Scored with an S-like pattern (for Sesame Semolina Sourdough), and in it went into an upturned preheated pyrex casserole dish that serves as a DO. Baked in it for 20-25 min, and then without the lid for another 15-20 min - until I liked the colour. No thermometer probing :)


I am very pleased with this bake, both the crust and the crumb. Tight, but well fermented throughout, very even. Just what Murph is looking for! There is also a clear but not strong tang - either from the wet levain, the long retard - or both? And a delicious nutty taste from the durum and sesame. Crust is super crispy, like durum tends to make it, with a good coating of sesame seeds. Very successful bake all around!

See all my durum CB bakes here.

Will have to be more inventive for the next bake, since I have only a little pasta flour left! Either need to explore an Indo-Pak supermarket for Atta, or use some replacement.

Benito's picture
Benito

Stunning bake Ilya, love your Z score!  You have a great density of sesame seeds which amazes me since you mentioned that you didn’t wet the dough before applying them, and your dough is lowish hydration.  The loaf has great height and bloom, nice all around.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Benny! Yeah, I don't think wetting the dough is necessary for a lot of seeds to stick. Maybe more important with baguettes, that are less heavy, and need more gentle handling?..

I actually thought the bloom was not that big, and the source of height is mostly not oven spring - just no flattening at all at any point, with such stiff dough. And compared to more hydrated  open crumb loaves, this one overall looks smaller, for the same weight. But I'm very happy with it! My previous attempt at durum bread was underfermented, so this is a huge improvement, and just great anyway, even if I say so myself.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

We're not even at the first weekend of this CB and seeing some stunning bakes.  The ante is continuing to go up.

This is a real piece of art.  At first I thought you were trying to recreate the Ziggy cut and ran out of room 🤓.  It's hard to find something wrong with this bake, except that it didn't come out of my oven!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Haha thanks a lot! :) High praise from you, and wish I could share a slice.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Very nice bake. I love the crumb profile, and an excellent result given that you used some pasta flour with the durum.

The toasted sesame seeds add a great nutty flavour.

Cheers,

Gavin.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Gavin! The pasta flour is great for bread actually, I've made baguettes just with it, and it worked nicely. But limits you to 50% durum, I was lucky to have a little semola remacinata left now to bring it up to 60%.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hahaha that's so cool, Ilya! Thank you! You honor me greatly. I am humbled. Thank you.

Isn't that a great bake? I looks so darned delicious!

I firmly believe that the crust sells the loaf; the crumb keeps 'em coming back for more. Who wouldn't want such a serviceable bread that tastes that good? A crumb like that can be used so in many different ways.

How is the mouth-feel? Is it dense or does it melt in your mouth like butter? Do you have to struggle to chew and swallow it or can you drink it down with a mozzarella? Does it meld with and compliment the toppings or does it fight for first place with every chew?

Oh! For a crispy and not crunchy crust... A crust that gives way when you press against it but doesn't shatter into shards of useless flakes. You can hear ir crunch, not break or snap. A light crunch that wouldn't cut your gums but reminds you of toast in the morning.

Ah! What a fine bread that must be. A nutty smell and flavor. A slight tang that lets you know that this is naturally levained. A loaf like no other. A bread you can put under the pillow and sleep on.

I would buy that loaf every day. I would wait for it. Anticipate it... And know I would never be disappointed.

Thank you, Ilya. That was very nice of you to bake me a bread.

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Ilya, your Indo-Pak suggestion is perfect. You've mentioned these grocery stores a few times and why not? There are so many interesting flavoring ingredients there.

I think many, if not most, Indians and Pakistanis eschew meat for religious or cultural reasons. Therefore, I believe, flavors and alternative nutrition will be very important to them. If this is true, it will account for the variety of ingredients found there.

When I went, my wife found something familiar-looking in the freezer. She asked the helpful clerk about it.

The clerk, smiling, said, "These are spicy, the others are mild... but still too hot for you." Hah!

Thanks for the Indo-Pak tip, Ilya!

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Dave was suggesting this to everyone when the CB was starting, not my idea :)

I second you on the abundance of amazing ingredients there, I love getting things from ethnic shops. Spices are so much better and cheaper than from a supermarket, and a much wider range. Or rice!

Also, by the way, as a simplification - Pakistanis tend to be Muslim, and eat meat, and a lot of Indians are vegetarian due to Hinduism.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

What more could be said than what has already been said. Thats a fine looking loaf.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you!

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Every time I look at this loaf I'm amazed at how tall and uniform it is.  I haven't been able to get anything close to that yet.  Fantastic!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! I think the height is due to low hydration, so should be very easy to achieve with a recipe like this, actually.

Abe's picture
Abe

The colour of the crust to the crumb are done to perfection. What a great start to the community bake where durum will take the centre stage. Just a word of advice... For durum bread to shine it should be toasted and eaten with good quality extra virgin olive oil. It really transforms the bread.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Or fresh with cheese, homegrown tomatoes and wine unless it's breakfast; in that case a sparkling :)

Cheers,

Gavin

 

Abe's picture
Abe

A perfect combo. Lightly toasted topped with mozzarella, fresh tomato, basil and drizzled with olive oil. And of course some wine. It's always lunchtime or dinner somewhere in the world ☺️

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

It's coming up on 6:00 a.m. here. I haven't slept since getting up yesterday at 4:50 a.m. It's been a busy day with work, etc. Too bad for me.

I've been living with this bake since it started. I have to say, I've really learned a lot. If nothing else, I am walking away from this Community Bake with Bakers' Percentages under my belt.

I'm also a lot more appreciative of different ways of baking with the same flour.

And, as a bonus, an introduction to a flour that I've never heard of before.

And... I can clearly see how the refrigerator will help me fit a bake even into a weekday schedule.

I'm into the bulk fermentation of the first recipe, the Hamelman. I've done the first stretch and fold and I'm off for a nap before the next one is due.

Before I go, I'm leaving this note to thank you all for the help you have generously offered. Thank you so very much.

I will also encourage any new bakers to jump in and and see what you will learn. You might get what I did. You might get something different. I can guarantee you this: You will cherish what you get out of your first Community Bake.

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Please don't deny yourself sleep because of the bread Murph, just put it into the fridge and have a proper sleep.

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with Ilya, Murph get some sleep.  Your dough can sleep in the fridge as well until you wake up.

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hah! Yeah... yesterday got away from me.

When I got home last night, I was suspicious of my levain so I refreshed it and wound the day down for the four hour doubling. It was fine.

Exponential growth still amazes me. Nothing really happens for the first three hours but sure enough, fermentations explode in the last quarter. It is so easy to screw up a proof if you don't watch the end game very carefully.

After the four hours, I wanted to get the bulk out of the way for the Hamelman 10-12 retard. This will help me get a bake or two under my belt this weekend.

Now that I have the major part of the "getting experience" done, I can work a few bakes in during the rest of next week.

When I was here 4-5 years ago, I would fail every time with "timing." It was so frustrating! I hated the experience and hated my results. Shoe leather! <spit>

I came back with the same mindset: "Don't think. Bake." phaz, DanAyo, and Abe don't know it but my early interactions with them taught me to mind my words, stop and think, and what to think about, respectively. I think I may have annoyed them, which I regret.

But the thinking and studying and everybody's help has set me up for success! I feel confident in this bake. Nothing is in the oven yet but this is my first time really "doing" a recipe. A formula... Which is why I stayed up to follow through.

All my other times... I was just winging it with the 123 Bread. Different flours, temperatures, time periods. No thinking. No studying.

This experience, this CB.. with a flour I have never considered... a spreadsheet I had to figure out... a streamlined recipe I am not accustomed to... I really had to buckle down and lean on any help I could get... and FOUND!... in an honest-to-goodness community of bakers.

I stopped. I thought. I asked for help. I got it. And I'm following the advice to the very best I know how. I don't want to let you down.

Thank you for the CB and thank you for the help. Back to baking.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, you’ve learned as I think more bakers do early on that winging it works better for cooking and less so for baking.  Baking especially when you don’t know how things should look and feel doesn’t take so well to just winging it, not thinking, not planning and just baking.  Now once you become a very experienced baker and you know how things should feel and looks then those bakers can just bake and not really think about it.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thank you, Benny (and others). Thank you very much.

Your words carry dear currency with me. Please do not hold back on earnest feedback.

You know that I am focusing on my fermentations. I am looking for an even distribution of large and small alveoli (holes). The largest will be less than 6.35 mm (1/4 inch) with evidence of proper fermentation throughout.

I define "evidence of proper fermentation" as "frothy" in appearance. Like the head of a pint of beer or suds in a sink of dirty dishes about to be washed. The bread recipe standard (or baker) picks that level of froth or foam.

The crust is too easy. Anybody with a month's worth of regular baking can get a half-decent crust! (Usually. :-) )

Most bakers cut into their loaf and gush that it is at least edible. Those bakers leave their crumb to chance without planning for a specific outcome. I recommend a CB that focuses on fermentation or alveoli.

Here's my second dough after bulk...

I am absolutely fascinated. I would suggest a 40% rise? The Tartine Bread will look for 20-30%. The recipe I'm doing,  the Hamelman, leaves the bulk rise undefined.

I think I watched a The Sourdough Journey class where Tom Cucuzza explained that the alveoli you get in bulk is largely what you'll get in your bread. If so, I'll take what I see so far.

Someone in this CB reminded me that these streamlined recipes leave a lot up to the baker. All my ingredients and room temperature are 22-23°C (73°F).

My first dough just finished its first retard for 12 hours at 3°C (38°F). I will remove it from the Arctic and let it warm to room temperature for an hour. I'll then gently degas, firm pre-shape, and light-ish shape into a batard.

Back to the North Pole it goes until I get to it tomorrow afternoon. I'll record the proof period when it ends at my convenience.

That first dough is 600g. It will rise in a loaf pan and bake on parchment in a Dutch oven. The second dough is the full 1000g. It will be divided and rise in the loaf pan and bake likewise.

I'm undecided about baking from the refrigerator cold. Should I warm it up for an hour and score or take advantage of the easy score from the refrigerator. Remember... focusing on fermentation....

Thank you!

Murph

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Is that the Red Bull talking or is that your natural enthusiasm? The latter will take your bakes to a new level. I look forward to seeing what you produce. I have learned to nap between folds when it is (k)needed. Don't worry about letting us down I am sure you will try your best.

Don

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hah! Enthusiasm. Ask phaz, Abe, or DanAyo. Maybe Mini Oven. They'll tell you I'm best taken in small doses.

I'm too stubborn. I'll start doing something and "something happens." Usually not altogether good. Then I have to fix it, apologize to all and sundry, and show I've learned my lesson. For "long enough." Rinse, repeat. I never learn. Dunno why.

Thanks nevertheless. This time around, I'm doing things differently. Lets see what happens. I fully intend to steal everything I can get out of this CB! You bakers are AMAZING!!!!

Hey, how do you like that rising vessel? It's 12 cm (5 in.) in diameter and 20 cm (8 in.) high. That dough is 1000g.

What a perfect vessel to measure a dough rise in! I bet you are jealous. :-) Do you have something like that?

I remember that I picked it up at a thrift store (Salvation Army) 4-5 years ago. Dabrownman sent me there to look for odds and ends on the cheap. Good idea!

With a vessel like that, a baker can really get a handle on bulk fermentation. I should mark it up into millimeters using water as a guage.

Which reminds me... the metric system is the way to go! I'm American. One of only three countries in the world to use the Imperial and Fahrenheit systems. Liberia and Myanmar are the other two. All great and glorious countries but metric is so much easier when you start immersing yourself in it. Which I intend to do.

This CB got me going with the metric system. Something else I will walk away with. Which is nice. :-)

Murph

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

While the straight sided container does allow for a better measurement of the growth during bulk it can make it harder to get the dough out of and onto the bench without disrupting the gluten structure. Especially if you are going for a more open crumb and are trying to preserve the gas that has accumulated during the bulk. I use a low wide pyrex glass bowl because it allows me to do the folds and dump the dough out easily. There are other ways to determine when the bulk is complete like the shine, the jiggle and the strength of the dough.

I commend your enthusiasm and willingness to share thoughts. I am hampered by being a  hunt and peck typist whose fingers can't keep up with my thoughts. I look forward to seeing your bake. 

Don

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m with Don on this, I too use a square low sided Pyrex dish for the same reasons.  It is perfect for doing coil folds given the low sides and heavy weight and as Don points out one can get the dough out of it at the end of bulk without degassing it very much.  It is very difficult to judge rise with it though, so that is one of the reasons I use an aliquot jar.  Now since the summer when I started to use the aliquot jar, I can getting a much better idea of what the dough should feel and look like at the end of bulk so I’m developing that knowledge by using the aliquot jar.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Dawn comes to Marblehead! THAT'S what I couldn't figure out!

I've been big on the bulk fermentation with emphasis on the fermentation because... well... I guess I don't know why... maybe it's all I know?

I know I have to ferment up all this flour. That's key. And, according to this Tom Cucuzza on The Sourdough Journey, most of my crumb's characteristics are developed mostly at bulk.

But what I couldn't, for the life of me, is figure out how that darned jar fits into all this refrigerator work. I mean, not a whole lot happens in the refrigerator and what DOES happen, would be hard to compare given the small sample and larger reality. Until you wrote...

Use the jar during bulk!

That makes more sense. Thank you to you and MTLoaf!

Now, I have to relate my experience with my first refrigerator retard and proof. Which was eye-opening.

My first loaf doing the Hamelman is going into the oven in about 45 minutes. It is a pretty angry dough. It had a lot more to give me after bulk and first retard.

When I took it out for shaping, I let it warm up for an hour, pre-shaped, and rest for 30 minutes. Darned thing rose some more. Shape and rest. Still more rise.

Now, after 16 hours proofing in the refrigerator, it rose even more. In the refrigerator! I am going to let it sit at room temperature for an hour before baking to see what else it has.

It weighs 600g. One test will be if the flour-lined cloth sticks to the dough. <gulp> I'll slash and spritz for effect and bake this still-cool dough at 232°C (460°F) for 20 minutes. Then bake to brown for 15-20 minutes at 218°C (425°F).  Cure in turned off oven for another 10-15 minutes. We'll see how that goes and adjust if necessary.

MTLoaf is right about the other visual cues like the jiggle thing. I've experienced that and was fascinated by how light and mobile a dough can be. A properly fermented dough. Now I'm dying to get a tight skin around a nicely done boule to see, really, just how playful that can be.

Benny, I'm going to search for your aliquot jar tutorial. Shouldn't be too hard to find. I think there's more to just stuffing a piece of dough into a jar. Something about adding water to remove air pockets. This should be good. Thank you for keep bringing it up. It finally clicked! :)

Murph

PS - I wish I was smart. Like you. So I could write short letters. Like you. But I like writing to everyone here. I think of everyone when I write - like friend to friend.

Abe's picture
Abe



Biga: Add the yeast water to the flour and mix until just smooth. The biga should be dense, but add a few drops of water if it is so stiff that it can’t “breathe.” Cover the bowl with plastic and leave for 12 to 16 hours at about 70°F. When ripe, the biga will be domed and just beginning to recede in the center.

 

Liquid Levain: Mix the liquid levain at the same time as the biga. Let stand in a covered container for the same time and at the same temperature as the biga.

 

METHOD

 

Mixing: Add all the ingredients to the mixing bowl. Form dough and knead till a modest amount of gluten development. Desired dough temperature: 75°F.

 

Bulk Fermentation: 2 hours.

 

Folding: Fold the dough twice, at 40-minute intervals. Fold with care and skill, as it is the folds that will bring added strength to the dough.

 

Shaping: Preshape into a round. When sufficiently relaxed, shape into round, oval, or stick-shaped loaves. Cover the to prevent a crust from forming during the final fermentation.

 

Final Fermentation: About 1 hour at 76°F.

 

Baking: Place the risen dough on the loading conveyor or peel. Slash as desired. Presteam the oven, load the dough, and steam again. Bake in a 450°F oven. Round loaves scaled at 1.5 pounds will bake in approximately 38 minutes.

 

Edit: due to flour I had in stock the original plan was a durum/kamut mix but in the end managed to do the recipe with mostly durum flour and some bread flour. Original recipe calls for all durum except for the levain build. The recipe above was my initial plan which subsequently changed and ended up being closer to the original apart from the yeast water biga which was converted from a yeasted biga.

Toasts up a treat! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Was holding back a comment awaiting the inevitable crumb photo.  A 70/30 mix is still a nice combination.  My very few times with 100% semolina I was thinking it was too overwhelming, so to me your mix is just about right. 

Abe's picture
Abe

And had to delete the original. It's working now. My photo ended up being in code and then it froze. Was working on it for a while then gave up. This is my second attempt and I've finally fixed it. 

Crumb shot in the morning. All in all a nice bake from what I can see. A high hydration dough at 80% but it comes together nicely. Just gotta trust in Hamelman when he says the folds will work. 

Thank you Alan. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Looks like you got a really nice rise on that loaf. Looking forward to tomorrow morning’s picture.

Abe's picture
Abe

Hamelman never lets me down. There's a reason why he is one, if not - the, most popular baker/author. Everyone who tries his recipes is not disappointed. I hope you get to try one soon. I too can't wait for breakfast. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Very nice!  Even and uniform crumb from top to bottom.  Looks like a perfect loaf to me.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

A very nice looking loaf. When baking one of Hamelman's recipe for the first time, I try and stay true to the process. You have achieved a beautiful loaf, and I bet it will taste wonderful. I think you have assured a crumb as intended. Looking forward to the crumb shot.

Cheers,

Gavin.

Abe's picture
Abe

Hamelman is so good because his recipes akways work! One needn't change anything, his methodology is sound and breads taste great. It dawned on me today that his timings in his recipes are such that they always toast well. He's calculated in the ferment time enough unfermented sugar so it browns well when toasted. All his recipes are well crafted.

Enjoy your weekend and crumb shot by your dinner time. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The double whammy YW/levain is an intriguing idea. The color looks brilliant and I can't wait to see the crumb.

Abe's picture
Abe

...I had a whiff of the yeast water biga and it was like sticking my nose into a vat of fermenting wine. In the morning when it was ready I had another whiff and it had completely changed into a lovely aroma of a perfectly file biga. 

Thank you MTloaf. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Looks like an excellent sandwich loaf Abe. Looking forward to the crumb which based on the shape of the loaf should be perfect. 👍

Abe's picture
Abe

Crumb shot now attached. Toasts up very well which is how I enjoy a durum bread most. It has gentle sweet notes and a nice after taste. 

Benito's picture
Benito

The crumb doesn’t disappoint at all Abe, very nice loaf!!

Abe's picture
Abe
Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Lovely looking bread, must make a great toast, and sandwiches! Very nice crumb.

Abe's picture
Abe

A very rarely have sandwiches. This is done more out of convenience. Mostly I'll toast it and top it with something or dip it. Thank you Ilya. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Wouldn't bread topped with something be an open-faced sandwich?

Abe's picture
Abe

Since most breads, even the fancy ones which aren't square, are sandwich loaves. No? Since what other way is bread eaten if not with something else? Even a baguette is a sandwich loaf since it's always eaten with something inside it. 

Sandwiches generally speaking are two pieces of bread sandwiching a filling.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

We are getting a bit philosophical here! I think relationship between shape and function is a non-trivial one, with some correlations but no absolute truths. Many people prefer square slices I think just because they fit into toasters so well, and lunch boxes and such. I don't think there is anything intrinsically better in the square shape for the tasting experience. No toppings, except processed cheese slices, are square, for example.

But maybe I am not one to speak, since I almost never make the proper closed sandwiches, it's not a normal thing to do in Russia - most people only have open faced sandwiches (called buterbrod - easily recognizable as butter + bread, but it doesn't have to have butter, and can have anything on top).

Abe's picture
Abe

No philosophy required. My point was if that's the case then all breads are sandwich breads but a distinction was made. By whom I do not know. At the end of the day it's whatever suits the baker. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Thanks to detective work yesterday by Abe, we (meaning he) figured out the issue with my original Tom Cat filone formula posting and hydration.  a matter of addition by subtraction and the dang English language.  Since corrected.  

The 90% hydration poolish worked like a charm, and there is a distinct difference in activity overnight between the 7 and 8 hour marks.  Hand mixed and held back ~15% of the final mix water for a bassinage.  70 French Folds, 5 min rest, 50 FFs.  The BF took ~2.5 hrs with countertop letter folds at 20, 40 &  60 min.  

As advertised, the dough was sticky but not goopy post mix, and puffy post BF.  Full bake time was a surprisingly long 43 min with a 2 min vent.   400dF oven, steam for 15 min.

Pleased with how this came out except that I would have liked to get another two shades darker crust, but that wasn't going to happen with a 400dF oven.  A soft crumb with a mild creamy mouth feel.  Quite delightful.

Things to change for the next time:

  • No bassinage, the incorporation of the poolish and the bassinage was too messy and took too much work to de-clump the dough before the FFs.
  • Bump the bake temperature up to ~460dF. I'll get the darker crust that I crave, and I might be able to increase the oven spring.

800g filone x 1

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nevertheless, a very respectable bake. I bet it tastes great. I look forward to another bake of this with your adjustments.

Cheers,

Gavin

alfanso's picture
alfanso

to another bake with said adjustments. These past few months I'm running on Durum Atta flour, which generally yields similar results to a pure semola rimacinata.  And generally yields a contented baker with gods from his own oven!

alan

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

For me, the color on that crust looks perfect!  Well done!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

There are two general camps on TFL.  Those who like the lighter, and often softer, crust.  And those who go for the "bold" bake, with a more robust coloration.  And which usually yields a crunchier crust.  I'm in camp #2.  Something for everyone!

thanks, Alan

Abe's picture
Abe

The crumb I desire most in a durum bread is exactly what you've achieved in this bake. It has a closer crumb but that only adds to the creaminess of the texture. It shouldn't be fluffy but should be soft. A few open holes but otherwise a more close crumb. Your bake to me is ideal and it'll make great toast. Durum has a delicate sweet flavour which shines more in a closer crumb. It's gotta soak up the olive oil too. That, to me, is perfect Alan. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and makes for some great toast - last evening's late night snack.  As opposed to the earlier leaden 89% hydration duds which were dense and heavy - but made for even better toast!

I might as well take this opportunity to explain as to how the poolish mystery, hence the entire formula correction,  was unlocked.

If one looks at the "original" write-up by David Snyder, the instructions right out of the starting gate make no sense, in a way.  

Ms. Glezer has 1/4 tsp. of IDY dissolved in 1 cup of water and then instructs to discard all but 1/4 cup as part of the poolish hydration.  The only reason I can think of for that scenario, scaling out 1/4 tsp. when everything else is in grams, is that the baker would have to possess a gram scale that can read at least tenths of a gram.  In essence what she's asking for is 0.2g of IDY in the poolish.  Same with the Final Dough, but 0.8g IDY.  Okay, I get it.  

But the real head scratcher, where I had difficulty understanding my native language, and needed the investigative Abe brain, was deciphering the hydration of the poolish instruction: "Water - 135 gms (in addition to the above 1/4 cup)".

For some strange reason when I read the words "in addition to" I mistakenly interpret that to mean A + B.  Which in this case means 135g + 60g (the 1/4 cup weight).  Which yields a soupy 130% hydration poolish.

In actuality, the "correct" deciphering of the cleverly coded wording means A - B + B (135g - 60g + 60g), the 135g is inclusive of the 1/4 cup of yeasted water.  Which relegates the poolish to a 90% hydration.

So I'll add the cleverly coded wording of my great great grandfather's 3rd cousin thrice removed "WTF?"

Thanks Abe, Alan 

Abe's picture
Abe

Is just incorrect. Perhaps they meant to say was... 1/4 cup yeast/water suspension forms part of the 'sum of' 135g. 

isand66's picture
isand66

I can see how most people would be confused.  In any case your bake looks excellent.  Great job.

Benito's picture
Benito

Well you already know what I’m going to say about this bake Alan. You got me at sesame seeds as usual, but the beautiful oven spring and bloom are stunning as is the crumb. Must taste great. A fine bake indeed. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

pick up more seeds while using my standard seeding (seedy?)  technique.  But certainly acceptable.  Good oven spring for sure, but I'm going out on a limb and thinking that if I can goose the dough during the steaming cycle with a hotter oven, that I may be able to get even more oven spring from the bake.  Time will tell, and my next bake will explore that option.  Stay tuna-ed!

thanks, Alan

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Nice work, as always. Consistently good results. I'm including the one from the other day that you were unhappy about in that statement. That one was good, too!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

but were splitting hairs here!  I have a darned good track record of consistency with the Scott MeGee ciabatta version that I've used for the past few years, so any abberation is a bit disconcerting.  Oh well,  When I start charging for bread then my concerns will be amplified ;-) .  

thanks, Alan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I was about to dive into the old version when the changes were posted. I guess the 89% hydration was such an outlier that something had to be wrong. It does seem like this flour is capable of handling whatever amount of water you throw at it. Your reworked loaf looks great and the crumb is a crowd pleaser. Did you retard this IDY recipe or go straight through?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

it is a winner.  You can read up on why the old formula was a misinterpretation in my reply back to Abe a few comments above yours.

Straight through with a very minor exception.  As the shaped dough retained some of that same earlier puffiness, I was concerned about how the scoring might go.  I placed a long narrow plate in the refrigerator to get it cold, then placed the couched dough onto it for about 40 minutes rather than the ~30 min countertop proof.  I figured that would give the dough just about enough time to cool down sufficiently to help with the scoring.  Whether that worked or not, the scoring do go well.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A compilation of Bakes posted to this Community Bake can be seen HERE.

I wanted to bake 100% Semolina Rimacinata following the Pane di Altamura. Both this bake and Bake #2 were shaped as batards, though. When it comes to anything Italian, my attention turns to Michael, aka ‘mwilson’. Mike’s formula and method was my guide.

Bake #1

This one didn’t proceed as anticipated. The dry levain grew tremendously,  but the actual bulk fermentation of the dough failed to rise. I still have no idea why. In order to salvage the dough 0.5% CY was added after waiting hours for the dough to rise during the BF.


According the Michael’s instructions, the dough was well developed. This was more difficult with durum than it would have been with typical wheat. The gluten was super tough and elastic. But with adequate kneading it became supple and cohesive.

Considering the initial lack of rise during the BF, I was happy to have saved the loaf. After baking Bake #2, I believe that if the dough was allowed to BF long enough, it would have risen appropriately.

NOTE -this dough may have been over worked. The crumb color had a yellow hue, but not as much as expected. The image does a poor job of representing the actual color. I later learned that using the flash helped to render a much more accurate hue.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A compilation of Bakes posted to this Community Bake can be seen HERE.

I wanted to bake 100% Semolina Rimacinata following the Pane di Altamura. Once again, Mike’s formula and method was my guide for Bake #2

Like the previous bake the bulk ferment took quite a while to double, as Mike recommended. It took 2 hours @ ~76F and 4 hours @ 80F. IMO, the dough over-fermented. It was bloated and fragile. I actually thought the bread was a huge flop, but decided to bake it anyway. To my surprise the oven spring was great! This flour seems quite different from typical wheat. There is much to learn. 

Flavor -
My wife loves it... For me, it was OK, but nothing to write home about. Patsy and I have been married 34 years, and I can say that our taste are completely opposite. The loaf was wrapped in a cloth overnight to keep it soft. And soft it was - a good thing.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Wow Dan, this second bake is a real beauty, inside and out!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

What a marked improvement over Bake #1.  As far as taste, and we know the wife likes breads that are not strong in flavor.  The few times I've gone to 100% semolina, I've been uninspired by the taste and find combinations between 40%-60% semolina to have a superior taste profile.  The crumb is consistent with other semolina crumbs around these parts during the CB, so that was also a winner.

You mention BF times and I think you have it backward.  The shorter time should be associated with the higher ambient temperature.  Unless there are other forces of nature at work here.

Where Michael refers to the plastcity of semolina, I can refer to yesterday's bake.  The 55/45 mix of semolina/AP flours.  Mixed by hand, it had the first Letter Fold on the workbench at 20 minutes.  The dough had an incredible amount of plasticity/elasticity at that stage.  True it isn't 100% semolina, but that element was clearly present at 55%. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

#2 Is a sight to behold and exceptional in every way. Although it does look kind of naked without the seeds. Everyone has their definition of the ideal crumb from the practical to the aesthetic but yours is a thing of beauty to me.

Some bakers are talking about how elastic this flour is and I have not found that to be the case at all. Maybe it's the hydration I am using or my bulk is too short but my dough will stretch beyond what regular wheat would. The doubling of the bulk is something I need to try with this flour.

Nice catch 

Don

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with everyone else, your second bake is fantastic.  You improved a lot over the first with number 2.   The crumb is great as does the crust.  You achieved fabulous oven spring and bloom with it as well.  I have to say I agree with you about this flour being very different.  You should try a 100% semolina to really see the difference.

I was surprised that my loaf actually had a great bloom.  I should have taken photos of it during and after the seeding.  It truly was flattened out.  I don’t know how it turned into a good looking loaf.

isand66's picture
isand66

Great looking bake Dan.  For 100% durum loaf you can’t get much better!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I would call bake #2 a success. Good oven spring and crumb. Very nice. I read a comment by Hamelman that durum flour will develop in the mixer quicker than normal wheat flour and needs to be watched closely as it has a little tolerance for over mixing and will unknit quickly. 

Gavin

albacore's picture
albacore

My contribution to the community bake is a Pane di Matera, made with 90% durum flour and leavened with my lievito madre approximation.

The bake adhered to what I believe is the correct low hydration model of around 65% and was loosely based on this video recipe.

The crumb was fairly close, but very pliable and moist, pretty tasty in fact, and went very well with some homemade tapenade.

Here's some photos:

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe

I think Altamura and Matera breads should be low hydration. Semolina is sweet but subtle. In order for better taste a lower hydration more dense crumb is needed. That accompanied by a toasted crust aka the dark bold bake, which tastes like toasted cereal, compliments the sweet dense soft crumb. 

If one looks at videos and photos of authentic breads from this region then you'll never see a high hydration open crumb. They'll cut it open through a very dark baked crust and reveal what most will call an overly dense soft crumb and call that a success. You'll also see a well fermented dough that's had a longer bulk ferment and a much quicker final proof. They also don't do anything fancy like an autolyse or stretch and folds. 

That's a very nice bake Lance. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I enjoyed the video as well. The shape must have an interesting history with the fold and chop scoring. I really like how this flour brings an inner glow to everyones bread.

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Abe and Don. Yes, the video is good. Translation of the inbuilt subs was a challenge, but the camera function on Google Translate phone version did the job very well.

And Abe, you are correct about short final proof - this version didn't have any!

Lance

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I watched it without translations and missed the part about no proof baking but I found it interesting how she welded all the seams even while folding. I assumed she did this for keeping tension and trapping gas. I was surprised the crumb was as open as it was with all of the handling and then bringing the fore arm into play. 

I seem to recall that you have used a scald in other bakes but I am not aware if that method has been used for semola. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful rustic loaf Lance, the shape is so cool and really is what they show in that video.  Beautiful even crumb and you can really seen the swirls of your final shaping in the crumb.  Quite a successful bake.

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Benny - I was pretty pleased with it for a first attempt.

Interestingly, there's another Altamura shape that looks remarkably similar to the cottage loaves I've been baking. I'm not sure what it's called.

 

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe

Just thought I'd bring to your attention this nice recipe which results in a lovely flavourful loaf. Two points I'd like to make... Firstly, she uses a 50% hydration lievito madre type starter. And secondly, it's not obvious in the video but it's an overnight rise in the fridge. Enjoy! 

https://youtu.be/uZi2tSwndiU

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

So I am following this recipe actually, and what really surprised me is complete lack of bulk (well, like 30-40 min during the folds), and no warm proof either.  I suppose the starter gets really strengthened with the successive feeds and the inoculation is high, but still, I am wondering if the fridge temperature there is not set to the typical ~4°C of a domestic fridge, but it's a bit warmer and allows sufficient fermentation to continue?

Have you baked this, Abe? Or do you have any thoughts, why this works?

Abe's picture
Abe

That's why I recommend it! Really love the flavour. This has a high percentage pre-ferment consisting of 40% "biga" with some strong builds and each one allowed to double. I suppose what is the difference between that and having 20% starter but only allowing the bulk ferment to rise by 30%? 

But as with all recipes see how it comes out of the fridge. There is always some going by feel rather than following the recipe exactly. There's no harm in spreading out those two folds either for a bit of a longer rest before shaping if you find it doesn't come out ready after refrigeration. Or perhaps leaving it for 30 minutes before refrigeration to aim for the proof to be complete when it comes out. See what happens and make adjustments next time if need be. But as for the taste of this bread it's delicious. 

This bread is built over three stages (4 if you count the prep of your starter) and has ample time for a 'bulk' ferment as it were. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

OK, thanks! I started by converting the rye 100% hydration starter to stiff wheat starter overnight, but in a tiny amount. So essentially I had to make three builds non-stop during the day from 9 am, have the second dough currently half-way done, and should be mixing the final dough in 1.5 hours. Wasn't sure previous stages were quite doubling (hard to tell in a bowl), but the second dough is certainly growing nicely now. I'll see, perhaps I'll give it 30 min room temperature proof before retarding just in case...

Abe's picture
Abe

For each build to double rather than concentrating on the 3-4 hours. A good strong starter should make these builds double in that time frame but I think leave longer if need be. 

If you think the builds were slow and not quite doubling in that time frame then allow the dough to rest longer between folds. It's all about making adjustments here and there. 

It's not the huge changes that is the difference between a mediocre and good loaf. Rather it's the slight alterations here and there along the way. Resting a few minutes longer perhaps. Giving it an extra fold if not strong enough etc...

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Totally, of course, thanks! I think it grew a lot in 4 hours, just difficult to tell if it was double the volume or not... I should have just done it in a jar like I normally do, but didn't want to generate more washing, and getting stiff starter in and out of a tall jar is a little annoying.

I have to say, in the video the growth is huge, and maybe even more than doubling? It was definitely not quite like that. So I'll give it more time then.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Fresh out of the oven - my first bake in this CB.

Details in my blog.  

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67220/bake-1-hamelman%E2%80%99s-60-semolina-bread

Not sure how to link this - Alan can you fix it if I have it wrong please 

Leslie

 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Very nice looking loaf.  Love the color in the crust.  Looking forward to seeing the first slice!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I would have liked the crust to be a little darker but overall happy with bake. thanks

Leslie

Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely bake Leslie.  Great lover spring and of course I’m partial to the sesame seed crust.  I’m sure your crumb will be wonderful given the shape of the loaf.

Benny

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

really happy how these have turned out

Bake #1

Flavour is good but toasted the whole taste profile is ramped up and sesame comes through nicely! yum

bake #2 

Caputo Classica

Farmers Mill

although it appears paler, it still has that lovely golden glow 

Comparison - Caputo on left, Farmers Mill on right

Flavour difference not great between these two that I can pick up.  I just wanted to compare flour performance. Caputo has protein % of 12 which is 0.3-0.5% more than local flours but of course is is the ratio of the proteins that influences how the flour bakes up.

Sorry all photos have posted sideways 😏

 

 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Your bread looks so tender and light. The sesame seeds really take the flavor to new heights, don't they? Beautiful work!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

to the flavour for sure!  I am happy with the degree of oven spring - especially as the dough quantity was a bit low for the size of the banneton. 

bake happy Another Girl!

Leslie

Benito's picture
Benito

Really love crumb Leslie and I’m sure awesome flavour from the semolina and sesame.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

as well. It is a good CB for sure 😊

Looking forward to your next bakes

Leslie

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Very nice bakes. Crumb exceptional.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

the dough was really nice to work with.

Happy baking Gavin

Leslie

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Is one of your trademarks and this confirms it. So many good bakes today means that tomorrow the sounds from the crunch of toast will travel around the globe.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I am humbled.  And yes toast all round tomorrow - my happy place 😊

Bake happy MT loaf

Leslie

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I needed a pain au levain for Saturday and the CB inspired me to make Hamelman's semolina bread. Featured in the starring role is Central Milling Extra Fancy Durum flour, which I have on hand for pasta and very occasionally throw into a dough in small quantities. Mr Hamelman's recipe was followed faithfully except that the first fold was a "lamination" fold (can't the bread baking world give this technique its own name?). I didn't intend to but when I put it on the counter for the first S&F, it just kept stretching, so I went with it.

The bread came out of the oven looking gorgeous, but the crumb was not the kind Instagram bakers dream about. I'm generally pretty happy if the bread comes out the way it is supposed to, open crumb or not, but this one seems to be open outside the score but not under the bloom. Hm. The texture was springy and chewy. Underproofed? Overdeveloped? Don't really know what to think. What do you all think of this bake – on target or not? 

Abe's picture
Abe

That I think belongs on Instagram. For me that is an ideal crumb in a durum bread and it's what I aim for. A beautiful loaf AG.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I appreciate that, especially because I'm not familiar with this bread.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I think this loaf is very good. I know in my loaves if I get larger holes on either side of the bloom, I've not pre-shaped and shaped the oblong as well as I could. 

 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I usually preshape but did not in this case. Good insight. Thank you!

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

The pattern of the holes suggests a shaping error. Is the rest of the crumb dense? Can you get a close-up?

I would call it good if the crumb is "frothy" in appearance. Your definition of "froth" will vary from others' but foam is foam.

Nice-looking ear. Great split and rise. I would love a bite! :)

Murph

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Thanks, Murph. That's the only photo, but if you zoom in on it, you'll get a good look at the crumb. As mentioned, I skipped preshape, but it was a conscious decision because the dough was exhibiting good shape retention from the last S&F. Perhaps I should have done it anyway. Spur of the moment decision.

Benito's picture
Benito

Gorgeous bake AG, both inside and out.  Great looking crumb and nice ear and bloom.  Nothing to not like about it.

Benny

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Your steam oven produces a nice bake. The crumb is nice enough but if I see an exaggerated ear and a dense center in my loaves using other wheat flour. I would say it was slightly under proofed. The non pre-shape and rest my have contributed but is also part of the same thing. Going by Danayo's bake this flour can handle a long fermentation.

Still all in all a nice bake and a good effort with a foreign flour. Did you toast the seeds before adding them to the dough?

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

MT, thanks for your comment. Toasted seeds, yes. The flavor was delicious. If I bake this again (and I probably will just to apply my learnings), I'll push the fermentation farther and will not skip the pre-shape. I don't know why I skipped it this time, it's not the kind of thing I normally do. Oh well, live and learn.

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

You've got a fantastic ear here! Congrats!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

in this CB - I love them all - the diversity and yet the over riding gorgeous golden hue to the crumb in each and every one.  so this is a 👏👏 to everyone, 

Happy baking

Leslie

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Will do a write up tomorrow. I'm tired.. :)

Overall, not bad. Could be better but will take it for first effort. Pictures...

Kind of tough crust. Burnt the bottom. <sigh> This was a bugger to saw through.

After uploading the pictures I couldn't resist trying a taste. I wasn't expecting much but I DID IT!!!!!!

YAY! I'm glad I tasted this! I was just going to shuffle off to bed! NO! It worked!

It worked it worked it worked!!! I did it I did it I did it! I DID IT! I made bread with a sourdough starter and durum flour!!

Wow!

Thq k you for hoping me! The k you thank you thank you!!

Hey, the inside was creamy. Not dense at all! Those holes are not tunnels! Creamy inside!!! Not tough. So soft to bite and chew. As close to a sandwich bread than I've gotten before. EXACTLY what I was looking for.

AND... believe it or not.... after the hacking and sawing... THE CRUST WAS CRISPY! CRISPY!!!

Wiw! I made crispy and not she leather. CRISPY! 

My knife sucks donkey balls. My new knife arrives at the end of the week. My "Special Award!!' And I deserve it!

Wow! Wowow! The flave of meh. Kind of. It will age well. No tang to speak ot as I write. No wheat or anything to write about. It is always that way with me at first chew.

I will test again in the morning. Right now? I'm just happy to have baked a loaf that won't pull my teeth out and has I crumb I was looking for: 1/4 inch (6.35 mm )holes! Light, airy... no daylight through hearty slice and still about as "lacey" as you can get.

I hate the shape of the holes, though...

Eh... just wanted to write and thank you. Please excuse the typos. I'm going to bed.

Goodnight! 

Murph

 

 

 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

go sleep! you have earned it

Leslie

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Murph, that looks terrific, inside and out. You should be delighted! Nice work.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

To your exuberance. Well done and sweet dreams.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nice bake. You should be proud.

Gavin

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well done Murph, that loaf is looking great!

Durum strongly contributes to the amazingly crispy and hard crust, and it doesn't go soft after a day either. 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thank you, everybody. I am sorry I got carried away but I was so tired and was just very happy that this came out so very much lighter and fluffier than ANYTHING I have baked before. 

I am still getting that upswept hole pattern. Kind of like boiling dough frozen in time. I don't like it.

Why do I get that pattern? My best guess is insufficient gluten development. 

That was a 600g loaf. It felt heavy for its size. I should have seen more oven spring, I think.

It looks like the dough had just enough life left in it for the bake. A perfect amount of life. Not too much, not too little. Or... I dunno overproofed? 

It just looks like the gluten stretched more than it should have.

Any thoughts on how I can fix that?

Also... gee, that crust had zero shine. So dull and uninspiring. I wasn't going for anything special but if I'm going to tinker around the edges... you know? Any thoughts on how to get some excitement in the crust?

Murph

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

You baked a nice loaf and you are on your way to many more in the future. If I understand your process I was worried that it wasn't going to end up as well as it did. By that I mean that you retarded in bulk and then again with the shaped loaf. It is possible that a dough could age out and lose some of it's vigor over the longer duration.

The upward flow of the crumb is not a bad thing and it indicates your baking surface was plenty hot when it went into the oven. If you were hoping for the roll and a wave pattern to the crumb that is more likely a shaping issue. Although I prefer a bold bake yours might be slightly overdone. I try to avoid black on the bottom. I am nitpicking here only because you asked because overall you did a nice job so don't lose sight of that.

Never being completely satisfied how a bake turns out is normal for most of us who exhibit bakers OCD. 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Nitpick away! I thought that is what a CB is all about! :) I want everybody to nitpick the bread! Hack away! I want to learn something here.

You're right, though. That got over-baked to 101°C (213°F) internal. It beats me why I can bite off a mouthful and not have to pull a chunk off with my teeth.

I preheated to 249°C (480°F) and baked at 238°C (460°F) for 25 minutes lid on and then 218°C (425°C) for 15 minutes. Cured with oven door open for 15-20 minutes.

I have two more doughs retarding from the weekend. In the refrigerator. Hamelman's recipe seems to be all about the refrigerator.

The Sourdough Journey did an experiment on "The Long, Cold Proof." He took a proof out to five days and got better results than he got with his Tartine recipe. Taste and texture-wise.

I'm going to bake one of these loaves at ~4°C (25°F) less and see where it takes me.

I'm baking straight from the refrigerator with a one-hour warm up.

Thank you for the encouragement! 

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

You ought to be quite proud of this loaf Murph.  It has a nice ear and a good crumb.  Regarding the crust, I think I see a fair amount of flour left on it before the bake, that will interfere with getting a shiny crust.  If you’d like a shinier crust try to dust off as much of the flour used in the banneton to prevent sticking as possible.  Once dusted, you can try brushing water onto your dough after scoring.  It usually works quite well if you’ve remove most of the flour.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Good eye, Benny!

Yes, I did dust that banneton liberally. I so feared sticking to the towel after all that work.

Which reminds me. I wanted to share how happy I am with my dusting powder "recipe." It is 29g each of wheat/rice flour and 10g of rye. I will work out bakers' percentages later and... noooo... I didn't dust with all that!: ) That's just what I mixed up.

Still, there was a lot of loose powder at the bottom of the "basket" such that I rotated the metal loaf pan with the towel inside to really get it in there! :)

I forgot to spritz with water after scoring. I was kicking myself all during that bake! :)

Thank you, Benny, for the encouragement!

Murph

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Bake #2

I decided to use the Hamelman 60/40 again only this time I mixed by hand. I have recently converted my 60% starter to 75% because it was easier to maintain and mix into an autolysed dough since most of my breads use the same 75%. I also tried the new on the shelf Wheat Montana Bread Flour. After producing only AP for years they have answered the demand for bread flour.

The two loaves ended up being an unintentional tale of two crumbs. When I went to move one of the loaves from the seed tray to the basket, it poured between my hands and ended up folded in half lengthwise. Which helped it bake up taller but a more even crumb.

Semola due

The one with the open crumb is on the left and the one that was folded into the basket on the right. The crumb was really soft in both but the crust is pretty hard.

crumb 1

semola 2

Add this to list of things I am happy about.

WMBF

Benito's picture
Benito

Another two good looking loaves Don.  What amazes me about this flour is how resilient the dough it produces seems to be.  Your one loaf flattened and got folded over during transfer after seeding and yet look at how wonderfully it sprang during baking.  My only loaf did something very similar and somehow was able to bake up well despite the trauma to the dough.  It is quite remarkable to me.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

They turned out really good. I bet they taste great.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Probably one of my 4 absolute go-to breads, and easy bread to create and even easier to like.  Sesame seeds on the outside make it a Happy Fizzies Party (or they're all dosed on acid!).  Both loaves are winners, tight crumb or a little more open, it is a great bread.

Nice bake, Don.

Alan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I like making this bread. It's pretty easy to work with and the sesame seed crust is a nice treat if not a necessary addition. The flavor of the flour by itself is not that pronounced. Like pasta without the sauce it needs something to accompany it. I understand now what Abe said about the closed crumb helping to concentrate the flavor by a less than airy texture. I may not use the rimcinata that often for bread but I will be making pasta with it from now on and will be looking for a cheaper source to buy in bulk. It's still hard to fathom that the grain is grown around here but is not readily available. There are no Indian grocers nearby just Native Americans. Anyway this CB is off to a great start with many high caliber bakes and hopefully many more to come.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

The one with the more even crumb looks very light-textured and pretty darn perfect despite its "misadventure." Good save! Both loaves turned out great.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

This flour seems almost foolproof as I came close to verifying. The oven spring is pretty impressive considering some of the loaves are baked with no proof at all. Definitely a head scratcher. Next time I will include some toasted seeds in the dough like your bake to enhance the flavor and maybe the outside as well to keep the vacuum cleaner gainfully employed.

Don

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Gavin’s bake #2 - Community Bake - Semolina / Durum and similar grain bread

I chose Durum Bread for my bake #2. This differs from my bake #1, (Semolina Bread) in that there are no sesame seeds and much higher per cent of durum flour. The formula combines a biga and a sourdough levain.

I could not find durum flour for my bake #1 so I milled semolina into durum flour. I was at our local Italian greengrocer yesterday, who also keeps a select number of Italian products and discovered Semola Rimacinata on the shelf. So, I am set for bake #2.

I rescaled to a 750-gram dough and have included the formula below. I made the biga and levain the evening before and left them in the proofer at 21C/70F. Mixing the dough was a challenge in that I had to hand-mix and the hydration is 80%. The dough would not develop past a batter-like slurry. I continued mixing in a bowl for 15 minutes to no avail. In hind-sight I should have used the bassinage technique as it may have given me an opportunity to hold off on some water. I bulk fermented for 2 hours with folds at 40-minute intervals (in the bowl). There was no way the dough would free-stand and hold any shape, so I resorted for a loaf pan and poured in the mixture. Proof for 1 hour and was surprised to see a rise. Baked at 232C/450F for 38 minutes and observed a nice oven spring.

I am convinced that Semola Rimacinata was not the durum flour used by Hamelman when developing this bread. I am interested in the cohort thoughts on whether I should have used another durum flour or suggest hydration to suit Semola Rimacinata. What are your experiences?

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

... I can’t offer anything on your question, but I will say that is exactly the crumb I’m shooting for on my bake this weekend.  It looks perfect to me!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks. Good luck with the bake.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

That's a nice even crumb begging for a toaster and some butter and honey. This flour seems tricky yet forgiving. It goes from golden brown to dark in the blink of an eye. I had pretty good luck with a 30 minute autolyse to get the dough past the wet sand phase to hold together and then kneading a couple of times with a rest in between. I heeded your recommendation from Hamelman to not over mix or it would unknit.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thank you. I like the end result, but getting there was surely a unique experience!

Cheers

alfanso's picture
alfanso

He discusses the difference between Durum and Semolina, and although not calling out a semola rimacinata by name, infers that when he mentions durum he is referring to the grind with "lovely golden softness" vs. the "coarse grain" of semolina.

I think that the consistency of your crumb from every corner of the loaf is outstanding, and by hook or croook you created a thing of beauty.

In general, I've found that durum puts up a fight when hand mixed, the higher the percentage of semolina the more it resists being a cooperative partner during my French Folds.  I'm surprised that it went 15 rounds with you at 80% hydration.  My experience is that once BF is underway and the dough begins to "cure", by the first fold 20 or more minutes in, the dough is already exhibiting as well developed extensibility.

Just today I hand mixed a 100% semolina/durum dough (Durum Atta) at 66% hydration.  The French Folds were work, but the Letter Folds were as described above, and the rest of theBF also went "as planned".

I like that you've adopted not only the BBGA sheet, but seemingly their color scheme as well.  Plagiarist! 😬 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Yes, thank you for the prompt. I have just re-read the passage about semolina Vs durum in the book. My bake #1, I milled the coarse grain semolina into fine durum flour. The Semola Rimacinata I purchased for this bake #2 was as described "lovely golden softness", so I guess I had the right flour. I'll have to introduce the water in stages next time.

I like the clear and concise layout of the BBGA format and also the style-sheet; I went with both :)

 

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Gavin!

+1

The layout and way to account for everything is top-notch. I'm going to do your recipe this weekend.

Are you generally following any of the three recipes introduced by Alan? I guess the one with the biga, right? :)

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hi Murph,

If I was repeating one of these it would be my bake #1, Semolina "Pain au Levain". It's called Semolina Bread in Hamelman's book. The formula is in my submission early in this CB.

Best of luck,

Gavin

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Did you. mix using Raubard method?   90% durum would be a challenge for sure, but at the end you have a great everyday crumb! love the crust colour too.

Leslie

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thank you, Leslie. Yes, it was a challenge to mix and I did the Raubard method of sorts with a bowl scraper. The mix was too slack to grab hold, more like a slurry. I'm glad it turned to bread eventually.

Cheers,

Gavin.

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Following, for sure!

For me, that's my kind of bread! I'm old-school that way.

In my first breads, I'm looking for a working man's bread. I want a bread that I can make ham and cheese sandwiches and sop up spaghetti sauce with. With some panache. Something to make my work mates jealous of. And then to make some for them.

And I want to get the rhythm down so I can crank a few loaves out during the week. ;)

I will do that. I will study this recipe and try it this weekend.

Love it. To die for!

Murph

 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thank you, Murph. It did come out better than expected. This bread is screaming out for a good quality extra virgin olive oil to dip the bread into. In fact, I'm doing now! 5 pm here where I live.

Cheers,

Gavin

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Northeast USA here at 1:20 a.m. on Tuesday. Near Boston.

TELL me that oil is herb-infused! Maybe mixed with a touch of sage, thyme, oregano, and red pepper! Jealous!

I hate you! :)

My second dough is baking right now.

Hey, Alan (alfanso) asked a good question early on in the bake. You, me, and everyone strays from the given recipes.

How far afield are we allowed to go?

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

There are no rules within reason. There are some general guidelines at the CB intro.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thanks for guidance, Gavin!

Murph

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

It's very cool looking, and I bet it’s a treat to eat. Enjoy!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks, AG. It took on a lot of colour early in the bake. It is lovely to eat. Cheers.

Benito's picture
Benito

Describing the mix as a batter like slurry is quite accurate Gavin.  When I mixed my 100% semola dough also at 80% (holding back 3%) I thought that there was no way it was going to turn out and that it was going to be a flop.  But the overnight saltolyse did the trick and the dough the next morning was already developing nicely.  I later read somewhere that the semola doesn’t take well to a long autolyse, so I was confused as to why it seemed to help my dough develop nicely.  

Your bake turned out wonderfully, The crumb is sandwich loaf perfect and the crust is lovely and dark.  Very nice.

Benny

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks Benny. This dough mix is a mystery.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"But the overnight saltolyse did the trick".        (saltolyse >new word<  salt + autolyse)

This is why I dissagree with the statements about using no or short autolyse with these flours, flours that need time to hydrate, to soak up water and swell.  These flours are always being compared to typical all purpose flours in tests done with what I believe to be biased from the start, tests forcing typical AP methods onto them (after all, time is money.). Tests that also include short bulk times.  Where are the limititations?  Push them to see what happens.

If folding the dough over while shaping (the accidental "save" mentioned several posts back) results in a better loaf. Something should be said for a longer bulk ferment.  Seems to me the traditional folding over of the traditional duram flour loaves before baking might have come about in a similar fashion.  Waiting for a very ripe ferment after the initial shaping before folding and baking.  Any comments?

Give more time, let the duram flour hydrate, let gluten develop without mixing, then go about making the dough.  I have success with these flours when I soak them first.  How long?  Always a good question. Separate the flour types? Maybe a good test.  Any takers?

Cool temperature soak with salt. Salt may tighten the protein but I'll bet salt also allows the water to "soften" and penetrate the starch particles while controling enzymes to some degree.  

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I think you are right. A couple of people here have done an autolyse at 80% hydration with much a better result than my batter like slurry. Benito did an overnight "saltalyse" and meb21 a two hour autolyse; both were able to develop a dough one could handle.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

makes a flour absorb more water, the flour is just slow at absorbing water.  I have a lot of trouble with normal Ap wheat flour and 80% hydration.  Durum flour will also vary a little bit (depending on milling and storage) but a hydration between 60 to 70% makes sense, adding 40% bread flour to the dough mix should bring it closer to 70% just for the bread flour. The more durum flour in the total flour, the closer to 60%, the more whole flour, the scale moves up.  A 66% hydration is very reasonable for 100% durum loaf.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thank you. My starting point for a repeat of the 90% durum flour at 80% will be 66% hydration and then adjust during the mixing. I appreciate you sharing your experience.

Cheers,

Gavin

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"I dont think that a higher hydration makes a flour absorb more water, the [durum] flour is just slow at absorbing water."

Bingo.

Abe's picture
Abe

Of Altamura bread. It's supposed to be low hydration. It's all in the timing! And because the flavour of durum is subtle I think it tastes better with a more dense crumb. The lower hydration and dark bake crust keeps it fresh for longer too. I think nowadays there's too much emphasis on going as high hydration as possible. For what reason I do not know. Some breads just work better with lower hydration and that's what we're supposed to be aiming for! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes I made up the term saltolyse when I started doing them quite a lot as a time saving procedure.  I make the levain and mix the flour salt and water before bed.  Then by morning levain is mature and ready to add to dough.  Yes the salt is added to prevent the enzymes from doing too much with such a long autolyse.

Given this flour’s texture and relative coarseness compared with other flours, it seems logical that it would need more time to absorb the water so the saltolyse does seem to work well for it, or an autolyse without the salt for a shorter time.  This flour also seems to be able to absorb a lot of flour.  I’m guessing here, but I wonder if the low hydration doughs used by the Italians are because they like to do these breads in many interesting shapes that don’t get much final proof?  If you treat this like other doughs and plan to use a banneton for final proof, I think you can push the hydration if you want.  

By the morning without manipulation, this dough developed a fair amount of gluten during the long saltolyse.  After adding levain and bassinage water to bring hydration to 80%, then Rubaud and FF x 250, it was a very smooth elastic strong dough.  

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

My experience with Kamut, a harder wheat like durum, backs up what Mini says above.

Durum is "triticum durum"  not our normal "triticum aestivum".  "durum" is Latin for "hard."

Even though the durum flour (aka semola rimacinata) is ground as finely as AP or bread flour, it's still harder than AP/bread flour.  The flour particles may be just as small, but they are still harder than triticum aestivum.

Therefore they need more time to hydrate, and hydration is needed before the gluten network can be properly formed. So, you have to hold off slap-and-folding, kneading or stretch-and-folding a bit longer than with triticum aestivum.

It also means that, early on, the dough is going to have an apparently gloppy or too-loose period of time until the water gets fully absorbed to the core of the flour particles.

It's like I describe in my home-milling write up -- the dough goes through 3 phases: Too wet, tight(er), then relaxed. I wait for the relaxed phase before stretch-and-folding or kneading.

But... if you have a significant portion of AP or bread flour in the dough, you can get away with less waiting, but you are developing (and relying on) the gluten of the AP/bread flour, not the durum flour.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

It is interesting that many of the traditional recipes have that folded over shape and some even a punch down post shape. This flour seems to generate a wide disparity in hole sizes and and can produce an uneven crumb if certain steps aren't taken. It seems to react quite dramatically to small increments of water and the fineness of the grind.

More tests are needed by the scientific bakers (which I am not one of) so maybe if someone like DanAyo is not too busy ;-)

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

I'm running with Golden Temple's Atta. It's a whole grain durum.

How would I approach Hamelman's recipe with a whole grain ingredient? As in, what should I do differently or be on the lookout for?

Thank you in advance.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, I haven’t worked with whole grain semolina before, but I guess you would approach it like other whole grain flours.  It may absorb more water than non whole grain flours.  It may also ferment more quickly.  So keep both those properties in mind when working with that flour.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Yeah, when I learned that Atta was a whole grain durum, I knew there was something I should watch out for. Whole grains are different. 

I did buy the semola rimacinata. I'll give that a spin during this CB. It will be interesting to note the difference. 

9 kilos of atta (20 pounds). I'm surprised at how quickly all that flour can be used up. Who knew?

Are you whittling down the walk-in? :)

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

LOL, very slowly because I recently added 3 kilos of the Semola rimacinata to the walk in.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"I'm running with Golden Temple's Atta. It's a whole grain durum."

To be clearer, it's partial whole grain.  It is not 100% whole grain. Look at both the ingredient list (on side or back) and read the fine print on the front.

On the front, it says "Durum wheat flour, durum wheat bran, and wheat flour blend." So it's obviously a "reconstituted" type of flour, having bran added back in. The "and wheat flour blend" means it's not 100% durum, because they left out the "durum" qualifier in front of "wheat flour".

But the front of the package is not required to list _all_ the ingredients, so you have to turn the package around to see the "official" ingredient list... and there you will see the added vitamins.

If it were 100% whole grain, they would not have to add back in the vitamins (a.k.a. "enrichments").

This is probably what you have, correct? https://www.thefreshloaf.com/files/u151432/511FB9A0-64CA-451D-A22F-0A62C0FAA036.jpeg

You can enlarge (un-pinch if using a mobile device) to read the ingredients on the front, but you also need to read the "official" ingredients usually found under the Nutrition Info box on the side or back.

--

So yes, your Golden Temple has some bran, but not all the bran of 100% whole wheat.

And... , the vast vast majority of the flour is durum, so Golden Temple is still good to use.  They still have to list the ingredients in decreasing proportions, so the added "wheat flour blend" must be less than the durum bran that is added in.

--

Also, please disregard the "atta = whole wheat" talk, that is just marketing word-play to the point of being mis-leading. (You're in sales, so you know the concept.)  It is only _partially_ whole wheat because of some bran added back in.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Idaveindy,

Your picture is EXACTLY what I have.

Whoa, wicked good explanation of what atta really is! Thank you for that. Nicely played, my friend.

You're right I didn't read fine print anything. Just baked it. Because it's what I do. It could have been corn starch for all I really knew of this bag of new stuff.

I suppose, now that you mention it... right on the front of the bag, it does say "flour blend." In big, golden letters albeit light, big, golden letters.

Thank you for the primer, idaveindy! 

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Duplicate.

I am sorry.

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Duplicate.

Again.

I fear I am ruining this CB. My apologies again.

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hey! Who's got my loaf pan???

I mean, I put the thing down after my first bake and... the next day, when I was looking for it... gone!

Floured towel and pan. Both gone. Wife hasn't seen it. We've both been on the lookout for it. Nothing.

How's that happen?!? I don't think I threw it out...

I'm reduced to asking... do you have it?

What's up with that?

Murph

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I will check with my elves.  Kitchen elves can be so curious and playful and known for all kinds of happenings.

 Best R,  :)

gavinc's picture
gavinc

When something went wrong in our house when I was a kid, it was "Mr Nobody" who was the culprit.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Having used up my semola remacinata, I thought I'd try to use regular semolina in bread. But since it's so coarse, I had an idea to use it as a porridge, which is a delicious breakfast dish in its own right. And considering semolina is just coarsely ground wheat, it's essentially tangzhong. And I decided to use a lot of Kamut flour in the loaf to get that beautiful yellow colour. Since I was imagining it as a more of a slightly enriched "sandwich" bread, I used oat milk as the liquid, and added some honey and butter. Here is my formula: https://fgbc.dk/18k3

For some reason my levain seemed a bit week, didn't quite double overnight - I tried to give it more time but nothing more happened. I proceeded with the bread anyway, hoping essentially refreshing it in the dough would help with the strength. Not sure that worked like I wanted to, the dough was barely moving after a few hours, judging by the aliquot jar. There was a bit off fermentation going on with some bubbles visible on the bottom of the dough through the bowl.

I felt it was starting to break down after 5-6 hours at warm temperature, so I decided to just shape it and hope for the best. In the final proof it actually appeared to grow a little, but nothing like what it normally should. Regardless, I just baked it, since I was afraid of gluten degradation. Surprisingly, there was noticeable oven spring, and the result is not bad: quite dense, but not gummy and fermented throughout the loaf.


Tastes nice: a little sweet, a little sour, a little buttery and nutty - both from the butter, and from Kamut and semolina porridge, I guess. Despite the fermentation issues, the bread is actually pretty good!

Benito's picture
Benito

Very nice sandwich loaves Ilya.  The crumb is nice and even and the crust is a rich dark colour.  Good idea using the semolina as a porridge.  I believe I seen it added that way somewhere, may have been Robertson in Tartine, I'd have to check.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Benny!

I have only found one other bake online using semolina porridge (not surprisingly, here on TFL), everything else that came up was a combination of semolina flour and oat porridge. Good to know it's a legit idea!  Wish I had the Tartine books. Would be curious to see the the results of a real recipe using semolina porridge.

Benito's picture
Benito

I'm sorry, I just had a quick second to scan the Tartine books and I am mistaken, I don't see a semolina porridge recipe in there, there are formulas for porridge breads including Kamut flakes and Corn which I mistook for semolina.  It was in Maurizio's https://www.theperfectloaf.com/seeded-sourdough/ that he uses course semolina. Sorry for any confusion.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

No worries Benny! I think there is also a millet porridge recipe there? Maybe that's another source of confusion. Also saw a Maurizio's version of that.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

With porridge once boiled, I think they are all the same: inert, possibly sweet with solidified starch gel.  Which starch makes little difference, exception flavor.  Here again, I would soak the semolina first if a smooth (not sandy) finished texture is desired.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

From appearances, it looks nicely proofed... I see sugars being baked on the crust. That will give you a darker crust. As opposed to blond. Unless you are burning the crust. Which I also see along the corners.

From what I understand, if you bring a weak levain or starter to the game, you're all done. You're going down.

There are no large holes, though, for under-proofing.... and nothing seems collapsed for over-proofing.

What did you think?

Murph

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

From thinking more about it today, I now have a suspicion my dough was underhydrated. The maths of the amount of liquid including the porridge scared me to add too much extra liquid, but I guess most of the water is bound to the gelatinized starches. So I think I felt like I had issues with dough strength because gluten couldn't properly develop due to lack of liquid. And Kamut flour has a scary 16% protein (I suspect less of it is gluten than in regular wheat?), and protein likes a lot of water. So I'm kind of thinking that fermentation maybe maybe was OKish, but the dough wasn't retaining the gas as well as it could?

Similarly, I used 50% Kamut in the stiff levain. So, maybe Kamut likes more water to develop?

I am feeding my starter just in case to boost its strength for the future anyway, though.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Ilya, you brought up gluten... I've really been thinking about gluten lately since my last successful bake.

A couple of things I'm convinced of...

  • Strong gluten development during bulk is essential. Gotta develop that gluten network at all costs.
  • Most bakers (well... me, at least) tend to under-proof. Take the proof to the limit.
  • Pre-shape and shape is over-rated compared to both above. Just sort of form the shape you want and let the yeast do the work.
  • Fermenting flour for a bread should be thought of as a whole picture and not pieces of a process. Fermentation never stops. It starts at bulk and proceeds to proof through oven spring.
  • Gluten is a "bag" that holds fermenting flour and gas. You got nothing without it.

You and the bakers here already get this. Me? I had to stop and think about this. Gluten was the last piece of the puzzle. So far. :)

Murph

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hi Murph,

A couple of comments to value add to your comments.

The bulk fermentation is where strength a flavour is developed. It's the gluten strands/framework that is created by mixing/kneading that established them. Gluten alone is not enough - I'm assuming that you meant that by "gluten". 

Don't take the final proof to the limit; you need some rise left for the oven.

Pre-shaping is essential as it organises the dough into appropriately sized portions and shaped for a bench rest which is part of the fermentation time, often called "middle proof". Shaping gives form to your desired loaf and is the last opportunity to create the desired crumb of the bread type you are baking.

It's good to see how you are progressing, as it is reflecting in your bakes.

Cheers,

Gavin

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Gavin! 

Thank you for the value add! I do appreciate it very much. You are very encouraging to a newer baker. I'm getting there! :)

I wanted to circle back to this and maybe get a few comments.

Absolutely with your thought about leaving some bump for the oven. That's why I look at the thing as a whole and not pieces. That was missing from my process in earlier attempts.

"Hey, I gotta do this for these hours and that for these other hours..."

Negative. It all fits together.  One flows into the other and everything has to get done. I look at it... now... as a "fermentation."

ONE... long... fermentation. This was an important revelation to me.

Now... by gluten... am am 100% on board with your thoughts. This network of strands is incredibly important. I totally overlooked this in earlier attempts. 

Looking back... I can't believe how enslaved I was to the 123 Bread that I refused to learn anything else. I was an idiot! I SO should have SCREAMED out for help!!!

Dude! Stubborn much? That's me all over!

I wanted great bread and... don't get me wrong... you can do it 123 style... but, you know? 

That is why I wanted to write down my thoughts and get your value add. I hope I get others.

So far, I think I have fermentation and gluten network strands. Am I missing anything else from your thoughts? 

Thanks in advance! 

Murph

PS.. I just re-read your thoughts about shaping for crumb type.  VERY interesting. That must be slept on... Note to self: Must learn how that works 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Inspired by Lance's bake and having a niece whose family hails from the town, I was hot to get my own bake going.  Relying on the same video as Lance referred to for my guidance, I went slightly astray and rather than create a true lievito madre, I built a 3 stage 50% hydration levain as my preferment, starting out with a mere 25g of 100% hydration AP.  By the third build the levain doubled in three hours.

French Folding a low hydration 100% semolina dough takes some work, but once into the BF, the Letter Folds on my countertop went smoothly with a significant amount of elasticity extensibility displayed by the first fold at the 30 minute mark.  Aside from the preferment and the hand mixing, I kept to plan and stayed with the video.

The doubled-over horn shape with the three cuts seemingly representing the Father Son & Holy Ghost lend to the unique look of this bread.  And whether considered oddball, beautiful or just plain unique, the shaping is fairly true to form.

The bread bakes for a long time with a descending set of temperatures.  There is a 4-5 hr. cool down period, and I'll follow Tom Petty's words - "the wait is the hardest part".  Quite pleased as to how the events have so far unfolded.

A fatal flaw!  All that just to curve and form the corneto the wrong way.  I should have noticed.  I did cut the outside of the curve, but as it was incorrectly shaped, I wound up cutting the wrong side.  Dang.

 

All that just to double-cross myself.  A lesson learned for the next run!

Benito's picture
Benito

These pane di Matera loaves are such an interesting shape.  I know you won't be cutting on the wrong side of it again, that was an easy mistake to make, fortunately it doesn't take anything away from the flavour of the bread.  What do you think of the flavour Alan?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I thought it was hearty without being able to further define it.  However, the crumb was mostly compressed due to, uh, you know...

But as one in the medical arts you understand that this is repeatable science looking for a new baseline!

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The lady in video wearing Bernie's mittens did a lot of manipulations to achieve what I thought at first glance looked rather simple. So as I see it the bend is backwards and the cut is on the wrong side and it's upside down?! That's the Trinity! We are probably all going to hell for that one, but with good bread 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

after watching that segment of the video a half dozen times, as well as another vid to see whether there was concurrence, and there was.  Just that last dang step.  Maybe I was distracted by the mittens, although it might have been the comb-over.  I have just enough of the levain left over from yesterday in the back of the fridge to give it a go again tonight if I'm that nuts.  I am...I said. (Neil Diamond, 1971)

I have little tolerance for really dopey mistakes and even less tolerance when it is in the 1st person.

My ticket to hell arrived special delivery decades ago.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

was my first impression after seeing the pic.  It still looks good.  I think they like bear claws in heaven, I certainly have a craving for them.  :)         If I know you, this gives you a good excuse for another bake!  

I've got some date paste to use up and it has a very sweet molasses taste and will probably keep forever.  I also over roasted some hazel nuts the other day, Couldn't get their almost burnt skins off so I ground them like coffee beans, tasted a little bitter, aroma wonderful.  Thinking "Postum" poured boiling water over them in a coffee filter.  Wow!  Drank and enjoyed a cup of the warm caramel caffeine free brew before thinking ...this would be great in bread!  The grounds still remained a little bitter but the brew was fantastic!   

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