The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts


  • Pin It
trailrunner's picture

I had to get rid of starters and Larry's post the other day was the inspiration I KNOW he meant it to be :) I had enough bubbly weekold starter and I added that to his measurements. I added a couple more splashes of water as my KA mixed since it seemed dry and I wanted it to really slap the bowl. All went perfectly. I used my Grandmother's old blue granite roaster to bake. I have another really large one also. I have not tried this but saw the post by another TFL member and decided to give it a shot. Perfect. HUGE oven spring. I preheated my stone at 500 and then placed the covered pot on the hot stone  for a few minutes . It gets hot quickly. I sprayed the loaf heavily with water and placed it in the pot and covered. Baked at 460...lowered temp ...for 25 min and uncovered for 15. internal temp 208. 

Photobucket We should all have such great accidents. Pics of crumb tomorrow after it cools.c

Here is the "other side of the story" LOL. My scoring failed to take into consideration the huge oven spring I would get. Photobucket Lovely fine even crumb : Photobucket closer: Photobucket

ryebaker's picture

a brief introduction.  just completed a 3 by 4 wood fired oven, similar but unique from an Alan Scott type design.  cure is complete so we are busy experimenting. some charcoal, some great successes this past week and given the oven seems to stay warm for half a day or more, lots to come.  particularly interested in rye breads, but have Clayton's Breads of France, and working through all the breads in there.

dmsnyder's picture

We're back from 5 days in Fort Bragg with family. I took along 7 breads and, because of menu compatibility and dining out, I only baked once while there. I made a couple loaves of Sourdough Italian Bread which went well with baked coho salmon and grilled veggies.

We did breakfast one day at the Fort Bragg Bakery. They make very good bread and pastries, as well as pizza. They do the pizza's in a gas fired oven built with bricks salvaged from the bakery that was on the same site a couple generations ago and eventually torn down.

On the drive home, Susan and I stopped for lunch at the Costeaux Bakery in Healdsburg. Along with our bill, the waiter left us a 2 lb sourdough epi to take with us. It was outstanding with a comfort food coming home dinner of scrambled eggs and tomatoes from our garden.

On a non-bread note I just have to share, I found myself taking all but a couple photos with my new iPhone 4. It's pretty amazing, especially the macro capability.

Begonia at the Fort Bragg Botanical Gardens

Fly on Begonia petal

So, we're back home, doing laundry and re-packing for my week at SFBI.


wally's picture


Now that summer is in full blaze in the Washington, DC area, I've banished my rye and white levain starters to my refrigerator, where they seem to mournfully regard me whenever I open the door.  This past weekend as I was gazing on them I realized they hadn't been fed in the better part of a week and were probably getting cranky.  So I temporarily liberated them from their frosty clime and after an hour or so they were both bubbling and ready to be fed.  But as I started to toss a good portion of both it dawned on me I was about to waste a lot of levain for the lack of a plan.

Now, one thing I learned from TFL that has been driven home daily in a commercial environment is that you don't just toss a bit of this and a smidge of that together in creating a loaf of bread.  Everything is planned, everything is weighed, always.  But it was late and I wanted to just feed my starters and be off to bed, so I grabbed an empty container and a tablespoon and proceeded to throw a couple tbls. of both levains together, along with a handful of rye and one of Sir Galahad which I reckoned came to probably half a cup together, and enough water to create what looked like it might be a 100% starter.  And went to bed.

The next morning I found my mixed-starter healthy and looking for a new home, so I decided to create something on the fly.  At this point I did weigh the mixture which came to 240g.  So with that in mind I decided to construct a loaf that would have a hydration of 68% - making it easy to work with - and where the mixed starter comprised 25% of total dough weight.  Again, an easy number to work with.

Some quick computing, and I came up with the following:

Ingredient      Baker's Percent      Weight
Flour                       100%                       565 g
Water                       68%                        384 g
Salt                            2%                           11 g

Total                       170%                    960 g

All of which was especially convenient since total weight was just over 2 lbs - a nice size boule for my banneton.

Since I already had 240 g of levain, I did some 'guesstimating' based on the previous evenings couple-of-this-and-a-handful-of-that and decided that the compositon of the levain was probably in the neighborhood of 50 g starter, 95 g flour and 95 g water.

With those numbers in hand it was then easy to determine my final dough mix, which I decided would incorporate 20% whole wheat flour:

Sir Galahad             80%                355 g
KA WW                   20%                  90 g
Water                      58%                264 g
Salt                           2%                    11 g
Levain                     25%                240 g
Total                                             960 g

Desired dough temp is 76°-78°F.

I employed an autolyse with the flours and water for 30 minutes, and then added the levain and salt and mixed on speed 1 for 3 minutes, on speed 2 for 2 minutes and speed 3 for another 3 minutes. 

[Long aside] If I were utilizing a commercial spiral mixer instead of my poor Hamilton Beach this would be an overmixed bread. But frankly, I'm beginning to doubt that most kitchen stand mixers are even capable of overmixing in the sense of over-oxygenating dough and consequently wiping out its carotenoids.  In fact, I'm finding that I can either do a very extended mix on speed 1 only, or an abbreviated one using speed 3.  On speed 2 the dough just tends to form a ball around the hook and it just goes round and round, which isn't really contributing to gluten development I think.  By contrast, with my mixer, on speed 3 the dough is forced down the hook and gradually begins to slap the sides of the mixer which is an outcome you look for using a commercial mixer, signifying gluten development.

Bulk fermentation was 2 1/2 hours, with two folds at 50 minute intervals.  I pre-shaped a boule, allowed it to rest for 20 minutes, and then did final shaping, placed in a well-floured banneton, and proofed for 1 1/2 hours.  Because it was now early afternoon Saturday and blazing hot, I decided after this shortened proofing period to retard the loaf in my refrigerator for about 4 hours or so, until the afternoon's heat began to dissipate, making it bearable to have the oven on in my kitchen.

After a little more than 4 hours in the refrigerator the dough came out to a preheated oven at 430° F (my oven seems to run hot, so I stepped down the temp from the 460° temperature I'd otherwise bake at.

Pre-steamed, loaded the boule, and then steamed immediately and again after 2 minutes.  Total bake time was 50 minutes.


For an accidental loaf I'm pleased with the outcome.  It developed a nice crackly crust as it sang once out of the oven, and the crumb is moist and open - but not too open (it's easy to forget that not everything is supposed to resemble ciabatta :>)




This makes a nice sandwich bread.  It's moderately sour, which in my case probably reflects the impact of the rye starter more than the white one.  Lesson learned: easy way to avoid just tossing some extra starter down the drain, and an opportunity to make up a formula on the fly.



BLHNYC's picture

Hi Everyone-

Today I made pita bread using the recipe from Bread Baker's Apprentice. This is actually the lavash cracker recipe adapted for pita and perhaps because of this the pita-making directions were not totally clear to me.

While the pita tastes good, I have a few questions about making it and had a few problems. Some of the pita inflated and formed a pocket while others did not. I am wondering what I did wrong.

The dough can retard overnight in the refrigerator. The recipe does not say if you need to let the dough rest at room temperature before proceeding with the shaping of it. I left it out for about an hour. Does this seem about right?

It took me a while to shape the dough thinly enough. I let it rest every few minutes and eventually got it where it seemed right. Is it possible to over-roll the dough? It should have been divided into 6oz pieces that are rolled out to 8in diameter. This seemed really large to me so I made 4oz pieces in 6oz diameter (it only made four pitas). Did making them smaller affect the quality of them?

Lastly- the recipe says to bake at 500F until it puffs and forms a pocket but that the dough shouldn't get too golden. Because my dough wasn't puffing well, I took it out after only about 4 minutes because of the color. I also didn't know how long this whole process could take. After tasting it, the cooking time seems to be fine because it was cooked through and had a nice consistency.

Does anyone have any idea why they all didn't puff? Over-working, the size, not enough time resting.... SO many things can go wrong!

Also- any suggestions for making these part whole-wheat would be greatly appreciated!

I look forward to hearing from you!



txfarmer's picture

Harbin(哈尔滨) is a city in Northeast China with a heavy Russian influence. Around 1913 the first generation of Russian immigrants came mostly to work for the Chinese Eastern Railway, since then they left noticable marks on local culture, one of which is : 大列巴(pronounced: Da Le Ba). This is a miche like sourdough bread that' was first introduced to the locals by a Russian baker, and has been sold in Harbin bakeries for over a hundred years. Even its Chinese name was originated from Russian word khleb (bread). The fact that this bread was accepted and welcomed by Chinese people, even became a famous "traditional Harbin food" is very interesting since its sour and chewy taste is decidely different from other traditional Chinese foods. In recent years many bakeries have been opened all over China, but they mostly sell soft and fluffy Asian style breads, very few sourdough breads, nothing at all like 大列巴.


I have been wanting to recreat this flavorful bread for years, but only one local company has the recipe, they have been making it the same way since the beginning, obviously they are not spilling the secret. With the power of internet, I did manage to find some clues:


Firstly, this is how they look (the following two pictures are from a Chinese news article on the web):


- According to the articles: the bread is made from "beer hops liquid natural starter", not commercial yeast, which brings sourness and "beer taste" to the bread. I am assuming the "hops liquid natural starter" is a "barm", either traditional ale beer barm or simply liquid natural starter with hops added in. For my version, I simply used the barm starter I created last time with Dan Lepard's method (see details here).

- Various articles mention that the bread went through a 3 stage fermentation process. To mimic that, I used the miche forumla in "Advanced Bread and Pastry" which also use a 3 stage fermentation. Hoewever, my fermentation timeline is a little different from what they do for 大列巴. Their total fermentation is 16 hours, while mine is 24 hours + an overnight cold proofing in the fridge. It fits my schedule better, and makes the bread more flavorful IMO.

- The ingredient list for 大列巴 reads: flour, salt, water, beer hops, so I am pretty sure it's a lean dough with no sugar or fat, but I am unsure what kind of flour they use. Traditional Russian breads would have a high percentage of rye, but judging from the pictures, and people's comments on flavor, I think there is very little rye flour, if any at all. This is reasonable since rye flour is not easily or cheaply available in China, plus local people would much prefer the taste and color of white flour. I used a little bit of rye in the final dough, and KA Bread Flour for the rest.

- It's baked in a traditional brick oven (which is again very rare in China) with high heat, and the breads come out of the oven with a hard and crackly crust. That one is easy - I simply baked it on my baking stone like a miche.

- Each 大列巴 weights 2KG, about 8 to 10 inches round. I scaled it to about 1KG, 6 inches round. From the pictures above you can see there's a softer/lighter colored portion around the sides of the bread, I think it's because they bake a lot of them in each batch, so breads grow into each other, the areas that touch don't get a hard crust (sort of like a pan of pull apart buns). Even though I like a good crust, to make it look more authentic, I baked the bread in a bottomless mousse ring, to get the light colored softer sides.

Here it is!

When I used the barm starter, it had been in the fridge for 3 days, but it raised the two starter doughs and the final dough like a bat out of cage. When I loaded the final dough into the mousse ring, it's about 60% full, after 10  hours in the fridge, it has went over the rim of the ring. I was afraid I had over-proofed the dough, but it kept rising in the oven, crazy oven sping, that barm starter is STRONG!

Crispy and crackling crust on top, and soft sides, just like the real thing. Since I do like crust, next time I will skip the mousse ring and just bake it free form.

Nice and chewy crumb. Just like the real thing, there's no big holes but thats expected with the lower hydration, and how the dough handled in the process.

It's noticably sour, very flavorful, crumb is chewy and moist, one of the best miche breads I've made!

I've only had the authentic 大列巴 once, many years ago, but I think my version is pretty close in flavor. Next time I will use high extraction flour intead of white flour, and increase the ratio of rye, that will match my current taste preference better.

大列巴 (fermentation procedure adapted from "AB&P")

-first dough

barm starter, 14g(see details here)

bread flour, 39g

water, 39g

salt ,1/8tsp

1. mix and cover, fermentate for 16 hours.


-second dough

first dough

bread flour, 234g

water, 280g

salt, 1/4tsp

2. mix and cover, fermentate for 8 hours. Mine became so very light and bubbly.


-final dough

2nd dough

bread flour, 212g

rye, 54g

water, 25g

salt, 10.5

3. mix and knead until medium gluten developement.

4. bulk rise only for 15 min, lightly preshape into boule, rest for 20 to 30min

5. shape and drop into mousse ring, cover and put in fridge immediately for overnight

6. next morning bake directly from fridge, 440F with steam, 50min.


*This bread is going to YeastSpotting

Doughty's picture

New Norcia Sourdough Recipe.

Related post in General Discussion forum.

Sourdough starter:
250ml cold potato water, grape juice, lemon juice or
plain water
250 grams stone-ground, wholemeal flour

Sourdough bread:
750 grams baker's flour
15 grams salt
250ml starter
250ml water

Sourdough starter:
1) Mix together to a thin paste in a plastic or ceramic
mixing bowl.
2) Cover with a porous cloth (eg: cheesecloth) and
leave near an open window out of direct sunlight for
three to four days. It should have started to ferment
(i.e. bubble) and have a sweet/sour pleasant aroma.
3) Mix in another 250ml water and 250g flour. If not
using within four hours, refrigerate.
4) The starter needs to be fed daily with 250ml water
and 250g flour. Pour off excess starter before feeding.
5) Two to three hours before using the starter, remove
from refrigerator and feed.


Sourdough Bread

1) Mix together and knead well. Let prove for two to
three hours.
2) Mould into two loaves and let prove for one and a
half to two hours until soft and puffy.
3) Slash and bake at 230 degrees for one to one and
a quarter hours until golden brown and tested hollow.


Przytulanka's picture

Hello Everybody!

My name is Anna and I live with my husband and my two sourdoughs - Rye and Wheat-in NY. I was born in Poland. I started baking 3 years ago. I started from the no-knead breads. In 2009 I made my starters and till today I use them to  bake our daily breads. My baking is experimental, intuitive and personal. Recipes are inspiration for me but I rarely follow them. 11 monthes ago I started posting about my bread baking on my blog BOCHENKOWO (Bochenek means loaf in Polish). I had  posted in Polish but few days I decided to start posting in English.

 Here is my first recipe in English:



219 g whole - wheat flour

200 g  boiling water

53 g golden roasted flax seeds

6 g salt



130 g whole- rye flour

122 g whole-wheat flour

123 g organic spelt  flour (whole grain)

250 g  water

35 g  mature sourdough  starter (wheat)*

45 g mature sourdough  starter (rye)*. 

*My  both sourdough starters are whole grain.

Mix all ingredients for the soaker and sourdough it for 10 hours at room temperature.

Final dough :

424 g whole- rye flour

340 g whole- wheat flour

509 g  organic spelt  flour (whole grain)

900 g of water



24 g of salt

Disperse the soaker and sourdough in the water. Add the flours (without the salt), Knead by hand until it is thoroughly combined and all the flour is hydrated. Let the mixture sit for  30 minutes.

Add the salt and knead the dough until all of the salt is incorporated.Cover the mixing bowl with plastic bag and let  the dough rest for 60 minutes.

Knead again and divide the dough into two equal pieces. Ferment the dough for 3 hours.

Preheat oven (with a baking  stone) to 500 F.

Place the shaped loaves in oiled loaf pans (2-3) and cover with damp cloth. Score the loaves and put them in the oven.

 Bake  for 10 minutes , then  turn down the temperature in the oven to 450 F. Bake for another 10 minutes, remove  loaves from the pans and place them on the stone. Bake for 15 minutes. Remove the loaves from the oven and let them cool completely on a wire rack before cutting into.



hanseata's picture

Coming home from Portland late yesterday evening I had no time to make any pre-doughs for today's baking. So everything was stretched and folded, except for my usual Pain a l'Ancienne dough. No kitchen octopuses to battle this time, the doughs behaved and didn't try to take over the countertop. This morning I got an early start with my baking and was done just in time to Meet The Press.

Tyrolean Pumpkin Seed Mini Breads


These are real breads, not rolls, and are made with spelt, rye and Italian 00 flour - and, of course, lots of toasted pumpkin seeds.



Pain a l'Ancienne with Oat Flour (sorry, no crumb shot, these were all sold)


And since the oven was still warm, I finally fullfilled my NYB testing duties: Lace Cookies. They look as nice as they tasted.



jkandell's picture


Wholewheat Anise-infused Apple Sour bread


Started as the all-white flour Apple Sour bread from the Cordon Bleu Professionals Baker's guide.

Adapted by fellow Arizonan Stephanie Petersen for whole wheat.

Then tweaked by me.

The "sour" refers to week-old fermented shredded apples, not to the flavor.

The texture is moist, the smell and flavor are woodsy with a light background of anise. The apples are inperceptably in the background.

Ingredients: whole wheat, grated apple, organic apple sauce, anise, water, salt, sugar, honey, yeast.

Note that this bread contains only 1/16t of yeast, most of the rise is by fermented apples.




Subscribe to RSS - blogs