The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Adrian's rustic whole rye bread with some spelt

adri's picture

Adrian's rustic whole rye bread with some spelt

I just got a new baking stone.

Putting the dough with the folded side down in the banneton and with late but vigorous steaming gives a nice rustic optic:

It is whole rye + 13% whole spelt with 78% hydration.
1370g dough weight; 1163g (2.6 pounds) bread weight.

I built the leaven in 2 steps (very low hydration and cold overnight; very high hydration and warm in the morning); no yeast added. Is anyone interested in the recipe?

Greetings from Austria

Brotfan's picture

I would love to see the recipe. Looks like a delicious loaf of bread!

isand66's picture

Looks great.  Please share your formula.

so how was the taste and the crumb?

adri's picture

13 hours after baking it was still a bit too fresh. For tomorrow's breakfast it will be great. For me it was a bit too mild (I used foam sourdough method); my wife likes it that way. The mild taste also might taste better to people that are used to eat wheat breads.

The crumb is still a bit on the wet side but by tomorrow this also will be better.
I could have kept it in the oven for about 10 minutes longer for a stronger crust.

adri's picture

24 hours before baking: Leaven step 1:
- mix 10g rye starter, 40g water and 60g rye flour

19 hours before baking:
- The leaven step 1 should be spongy, put it in the fridge.

6 hours before baking:
- Take the leaven step 1 out of the fridge

5 hours before baking: Leaven step 2
- dissolve the leaven step 1 in 550ml of water and treat it with an eggbeater until really dissolved/foamy.
- mix in 300g of whole rye flour
- keep covered in a warm place (30-32 °C) (31°C = 87.8F)

1:40 before baking:
- Mix into the leaven step 2 until homogeneous (with rye no kneading):
# 300g whole rye flour
# 100g whole spelt flour (whole dinkel wheat)
# 16g salt
# spices: fennel, coriander (ground cilantro seed), caraway seed.

50 minutes before baking:
- shape the dough.
- for rustic crust use a lot of flour and don't close the open end
- put the dough with the open end down in the basket.
- preheat the oven with stone to 250 °C (482F)

- Turn back the oven to about 230°C (446F). (Stone is still at 250°C)
- Put the loaf on the stone in the without scoring it.
- Wait about 3 to 4 minutes
- Steam!!!! (For my small oven I used 400ml of water (400ml = 13,5 am. fl. oz. = 14 brit. fl. oz.))
- Open the oven after 6 minutes (10 after beginning you put in the loaf) to remove the steam and remove the steam tray if you use one.
- let the bread bake for at least one hour.

If anyone likes it and corrects my English, I could add some photos of the process and put it in recipe section.


aguats's picture

Voll schen schauts aus!

Looks delicious. I'm already looking forward to your next post.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is pretty good.  Don't worry about it.  If you check the comment tool bar,  there are little symbols with three lines.  These are tabs with dots (like you use the # before an ingredient) and tabs with numbers.  Play around if you want to.

I've never been able to add a recipe to the recipe section.  I think you need a golden key for that.  :)

Want to try your recipe, just happen to have fed my rye starter the same as the recipe.  Now what is this foam technique? I normally use a small (tiny) whisk to break up the sour starter in the water, and it does foam a little...   but does extended whipping reduce sour?  Or is it the builds that are softening the sour?  

(I have a very whole rye flour and like also an extended wet time on my flour, as long as I can get it.  Always looking to extend the fermenting time on all the rye flour.)

I do prefer a more sour bread so I will probably not refrigerate my starter and might have to discard and start a build for tomorrow thru the night.  Dec 12 was the last time I fed it however it looks and smells great.  I will also be adding some altus and spices this evening for the sour to munch on.   Depends on how it shapes up.   I also have hulled hemp (hanf) hearts.  Nice little nutty puffy addition to the bread too.  I don't ever remember seeing them in Austria.   Not crunchy like the seeds. 

It's snowing and I want a good crusty rye bread for the weekend!   

adri's picture

comment tool bar: Now that I enabled javascript I see it.

recipe section: ok, I thought anyone could post there.

foam technique: Well actually it is just the last step of a 5 step method that will give you a very very mild sourdough. It was used in Germany after the 2nd world war when yeast was expensive or mostly not available to produce a leavening that itself was not strong in taste. Of course it is the builds (wet and warm) that make it mild, but also the whipping helps.

Putting air (oxygen) into the mix will boost the yeast (oxidation of sugars give more energy for growth/replication to yeast than anaerobic metabolism, that produces more CO2 but this we just need in the final dough) and not so much the lactobacilli (even though some also have an aerobic metabolism, I recently learned, but the main metabolism is anaerobic).

I personally prefer stronger (rye) sourdough flavour but my wife likes the milder ones. We also used it to test different self made spreads we want to offer at an ultimate tournament we host next month.

If you like a stronger flavour I'd recommend preparing the 2nd step as a 100% hydration built overnight and add the rest of the water later. Even with 100% hydration it will get soaked enough and maybe you can even use the remaining water for a small extra soaker. Or simply choose another recipe, but that would be too easy.

I know what hemp is, I know what a heart is, but I didn't know that plant had hearts ;) Well, I actually don't know what a hemp heart is. If it is seeds, you can buy them with hulls in Austria at the usual "ecological or healthfood" chains like Denns Bio or Reformhaus Martin (Davert Hanfsamen knusprig & nussig). I just eat them candied. How do you incorporate then into the dough? Like with flax seeds via a soaker?

What is altus? Neither Wikipedia nor my dictionary have an answer.

Here it is snowing too. But unfortunately they put too much salt on the streets that will ruin leather shoes, my bike ... Not much of a winter wonderland. But a good time for baking (and even the energy comes much cheaper).

dabrownman's picture

Rye with a pinch of spelt!  Well done!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the rye sour (starter)  I mixed up a tiny batch of vienna bread, first a flour soaker,  to go with beef goulash.  310g white soft wheat Caputo flour, 200g water + half an egg, 7g each salt, yeast, butter and 3g diastatic malt.   Shook in about a tablespoon of those hemp hearts (still beating) for a nutty flavour.  They remind me of tiny oat flakes.  Eventually baked up a little bread round.  Hubby came in with baguettes from the store, not bad but ugly.   Tearing into them fast enough the ugliness has little lasting effect.  :)

The Vienna-hemp went for ham sandwiches for lunch:  butter, mustard, radish sprouts, pickle, cucumber,  black pepper.  

Now for the rye...   Last night added altus (old bread, in this case dried dark walnut rye in cubes) to the sour after a generous amount of water and rye flour and the spices.  It sat overnight and is thick and bubbly, smells like sour rye heaven  an' sittin' perdy inna red-neck salad bowl (cool whip container.)  Surely you've recycled day old rye bread back into your ryes!    I should have weighed my altus and extra water.  Now comes the fun part.  Guess I will just aim at the hydration now that I've messed things up.  

I will have to work backwards now, weigh out all the ingredients and remove what I've used so far.  Lots of fun!   It's unorthodox but it should work.  :)  

So staying pretty much true to the recipe, I just added enough water and flour to bring me to the last dough mixing step with 300g rye 100g spelt 30g hemp hearts and salt left to go into the dough.  My fresh flour addition needs to ferment a little longer, the altus fell apart nicely. 

The finished loaf:   (seam side up in the banneton, not the reverse)   

Have lots of 11% fat greek yogurt for potato cheese.   Makes a nice spread for open faced sandwiches.


adri's picture

Ah, now I know what altus is.
My way of recycling old bread: cut it into small pieces and dry and roast them with the dry function of my oven. When they are really dry (and have a wonderful roasted/toasted aroma) I grind them in my (everything-but-)coffee grinder.

Fermenting old bread again doesn't get too sour for you? I prefer a soaker.

Getting mixed up with hydration is a problem I know. Especially when I double or triple my recipe or when the recipe isn't fixed yet and spread on many post-it notes from the last try. I use the same method to restore the weight of the ingredient I'm not sure about. Luckily I have two mixing bowls for my Bosch that weight exactly the same :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I prefer to just soak them and tear them apart using their torn structures as support into the next loaf.  Probably getting into "resistant starch" usage too.  I have shredded moist altus in a bladed contraption.

The added flavour is the best part.   Too sour?  Only when modern wheat is involved does it tend to get too sour.  

Here comes the plow!  And more dirt and sand on the roads.  I don't think there is much use of salt.  I understand they're testing beet juice too!  Not from red beets but from sugar beets.  I have never seen so many dirty roads, cars, trucks including everything nearby, bushes, trees, buildings, walls fences etc.  a real mess!   You would get covered and layered with it on a bike.  (I should sell Kärcher power sprayers here!) 

adri's picture

This was seam side up in the banneton?

I can just imagine, you threw it out of the banneton that it made one whole rotation ;)

Was it very underproofed or did you apply lots of steam?

Liebe Grüße, Adrian

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Baked it smooth side up with seams underneath.  Doesn't look much different than yours!  But I do see differences.

I had to let it ferment for quite some time before I put the dough into a cloth lined banneton, it is closer to over-proofed.  I docked it, and I may have had a higher hydration.   I want to try again and get more volume and height to the loaf.  One hour was too long for my bake.   

Why the 4 min. pause before adding the steam to the oven?  


adri's picture

If applying the steam directly, the bread will rise more smoothly. You will see the seem as it has no flour there, but everything will be almost at the same hight.
If you wait a bit, the crust will already be developed a bit and it will break open where the seam is. You will get "small wild ears".

isand66's picture

Okay...I will bite...what is potato cheese??

adri's picture

Basicly potato, sour cream and onion.
Usually you add salt, pepper, chives, caraway seeds,...

Personally I don't like it very much. I prefer "Obazda". (grammatically correct it should have been "Obatzdn" in the sentence before)

Obazda is made of ripe camembert, fresh cheese, butter, onion, chives, caraway seeds and sweet chile powder. Without it, a prezel is not worth the flour it is made of.

aguats's picture

Both loaves look delicious! I have typically baked rye like Mini with the seam side down and I love the tearing that occurs. I'll have to try your version, Adrian, in which you withhold steam initially to get more pronounced ears.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and greek yoghurt, but getting real sour cream is a problem.  too much other stuff in the ingredients list other than cream and culture.  Garlic is good in there too.  Let it chill a few hours and intensify. 

Hey! there is even a wiki link with the pretzel gatch.   Leave it to wiki!  Box lunch will never be the same...  A "must" addition to any Super Bowl Party.   Now I'm getting myself homesick in both directions.  Time to go stir something up in the kitchen.   Rattle those pots and pans Austrian style!    ...and thaw out some butter.

adri's picture

Super Bowl is the american (rugby) football final, like the nationals in Ultimate?
Over here it's not that popular except for the reports of the show. (Janet Jackson, Miley Cyrus, ...)
I didn't even watch Revolver vs. Sockeye this year. (Also a sport almost unknown in Europe, but growing.)

Speaking of sports: Potatoe cheese always reminds me, when Germany won the European Football Championship and Pringles entered the marked: They had (and still have) crisps made of mashed potatoes with the taste of sourcream and onion and were giving them away for free. Man, we had stomach pain after eating about 2 to 3 packets each. Maybe that's why I don't like potatoe cheese ;)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think I just did something very bad, but so good!  The Superbowl is on Ground Hog's Day, Feb 2nd.  

I just combined equal parts of plastic cheese, Tostitos medium Salsa con Queso with yoghurt, Olypic Krema Greek yogourt  11%M.G.    OMG!   I cleaned up the bowl with slices of the rye, dipping and  spooning onto slices.  It's gone, went fast.  I don't dare mix up any more!   The yogourt fluffled up the heavy cheesy texture of that awful cheese dip and it is more like a Liptauer in taste.   

adri's picture

As to my calendar that's tomorrow. Then again, It'll be after midnight here, so in more or less two days. Why on a Sunday? The Champions League Final always is on a Saturday as far as I know.

But now I know why there are so little new episodes of tv series broadcast this week. They don't want to compete with the super bowl. (Which on the other hand rises the rating of the super bowl as there is no competition). And I thought it was the Birthdays of Oprah and Ellen ;)

Ground Hog day is like in the film? I kind of liked it when I was younger. From now on I won't call it Candlemas any more but Groundhogmas ;)

"Tostitos" seems to be fake spanish name for small, well, I don't know. "tostaditos"?
What is plastic cheese. Is it what we call "American cheese" (for burgers, sadwichmaker, ....)? Small slices of processed cheese where every slice is individually wrapped in plastic?
"salsa con queso" hmmm "sauce with cheese"?

Well luckily I don't understand half of what you are writing. If I write "LALALALALA" loud enough, I cannot read what you wrote!

Well sometimes it is really funny how things taste well, if you mix them. Like Österkron (Austiran mould cheese) gratinated with marzipan (yes, not the other way around as you would expect from cheese), I once had in a restaurante.

But i'll still stick to my Obazda - the key to it is not to mix everything properly.