Community Bake - Rye Bread
First Community Bake of the New Year. This month seems less like 'Dry January' and more like 'Rye January'. So it seems very fitting to make rye the centrepiece (sorry! centerpiece) for this collective bake.
There has been much discussion about the "rules" for this community bake but I wish to make it simple so it's accessible and all inclusive. The one rule is that rye must make up at least 50% of the flour/grain in the dough. Other then that... surprise us!
It is customary for the 'host' to start off with a bake of their own. While I have recently made a rye bread I haven't done one especially for this community bake in mind. That bake will be coming soon. And what's more I don't consider myself the host as i'm just getting this off the ground and on the way. I will do my best to step into Dan's and Alan's shoes however I won't be able to devote as much time for which I apologise (sorry! apologize) in advance. We can all play host and with a collective effort I believe it'll keep itself running.
Here is an introduction to baking with rye and I will leave you with is a really lovely rye recipe from our friends over at breadtopia. Over to you Eric...
Artisan Sourdough Rye Bread
This is my favorite rye bread recipe of all time… so far. I could have just as easily called it Swedish Rye Bread or Aroma Therapy Bread for that matter (takes the coveted baking bread smell to another level). Covers both sourdough and instant yeast versions.Ingredients
- Water: 400 grams, 1 2/3 cups
- Sourdough Starter: 70 grams, 1/3 cup (omit if making the instant yeast version)
- Instant Yeast: 1 tsp (omit if making sourdough leavened version)
- Whole Rye Flour: 245 grams, heaping 1 3/4 cups
- Bread Flour: 245 grams, heaping 1 3/4 cups [my tip: use very strong bread flour]
- Molasses: 44 grams, 2 Tbs
- Fennel Seed: 8 grams, 1 Tbs
- Anise Seed: 2 grams, 1 tsp
- Caraway Seed: 3 grams, 1 tsp
- Salt: 12 grams, 1 3/4 tsp
- Zest of 1 Orange
- In a mixing bowl, mix the starter into the water. Add the molasses, all the seeds and orange zest.
- In a separate bowl, combine the flours and salt.
- Gradually stir the dry ingredients into the wet using a dough whisk or spoon until the flour is well incorporated. Cover with plastic and let rest for 15 minutes. After about 15 minutes, mix again for a minute or two. Again let rest for 15 minutes and mix one more time as before. Now cover the bowl with plastic and let sit at room temperature for roughly 12-14 hours.
- The only difference is don’t use sourdough starter and instead mix the instant yeast into the dry ingredients before combining with the wet ingredients.
- After the long 12-14 hour proof, stretch and fold the dough and shape into boule or batard (round or oblong) shape for baking. (If you didn’t follow that, I’m afraid you’re doomed to watch the video.) Cover again with plastic and let rest 15 minutes before putting in a proofing basket for the final rise. If you don’t have a proofing basket, line a bowl with a well floured kitchen towel and put the dough in there for the final rise. The final rise should last somewhere between 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Keep the dough covered with plastic to prevent it from drying out.
- Preheat your oven to 475 F a half hour before baking.
- Score the dough with a razor or sharp serrated knife and bake until the internal temp is about 200 F.
- Let cool completely before eating.
On 12-14 hour proofing period: I typically prepare everything in the evening for baking the next morning. You can also mix everything up in the morning and refrigerate until evening then remove before bed to resume the proofing at room temperature. Alternatively, if you get started with mixing everything up early enough in the morning, the bread can also be ready to bake in the evening [you can keep an eye on the dough this way]. This is a nice option when you want fresh bread ready to eat for breakfast.
Good Resources For Rye Recipes:
http://brotgost.blogspot.com/ (you can change the language to English)
https://www.ploetzblog.de/tag/roggenbrot/ (you can change the language to English)
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio (from our very own Mini)
Volkornbrot [A recipe from kingdombread-tampa over on YouTube. Alan first introduced this baker to us back in February 2021: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67469/polenta-levain-kingdom-bakery-tampa-fl]
American Pumpernickel An adaptation of German Pumpernickel aka Old Milwaukee Rye. No need to bake it for up to 18 hours. Not 50% rye but we'll accept it in place of German Pumpernickel and pretend it checks all the right boxes. Not everyone is happy about baking a loaf for so long and this recipe allows one to appreciate "Pumpernickel" with a bit more ease.
Yeasted Polish Rye Bread : A nice channel on YouTube. Unfortunately she doesn't post any videos anymore. However here is a yeasted Polish Rye Bread for those who don't have a sourdough starter.
The following are links to some of our previous Community Bakes
- Lake Champlain Sourdough by Trevor Wilson
- Fifty-Fifty Whole Wheat Sourdough by Maurizio Leo
- Soughdough Baguettes by Maurizio Leo
- 1-2-3 Sourdough by Flo Makanai
- Five-Grain Levain by Jeffrey Hamelman
- Maurizio's Oat Porridge SD by Maurizio Leo
- Community Bake - Pizza
- Hamelman’s Swiss Farmhouse Bread - Yeast Water - Part 1 by Jeffrey Hamelman
- Hamelman’s Swiss Farmhouse Bread - The Bread - Part 2 by Jeffrey Hamelman
- Basic Open Crumb Sourdough by Kristen of FullProofBaking
- The Approachable Loaf- Whole Wheat Sandwich Bread by The Bread Lab
- Baguettes featuring Alfanso
- Deli Rye - NY Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye breads
- Durum - Semolina Breads
- Portuguese Style Hawaiian Sweet Bread
All bakers of any skill level is invited and encouraged to join in. The Community Bakes are not competitive events. There are no winners and losers. Everyone that actively participants is guaranteed to learn something(s) new.
Some Community Bakes get extremely large. If you find that you are getting too many notifications of new replies and would like to decrease or stop the messages SEE THIS LINK.
1: Had no anise seed so used extra fennel instead. Between caraway and fennel I think fennel is more similar.
2: Instead of using the usual molasses I used carob molasses. It is more liquid than the thick viscous cane molasses.
3: Had no oranges and even if I did I have no zester. So I used 20g orange marmalade jam as a substitute.
4: Because of points 2 & 3, the more liquid molasses and 20g orange marmalade, I reduced the water by 20g to try and get the same properties for the final dough when it came to hydration. It seemed to give me a good result which was very similar to Eric’s dough.
The bread flour I used was a very strong 15% protein Canadian flour by Marriage’s and I used Dove’s Farm wholegrain rye.
The dough was sticky however by the time I finished the last of the stirring/folding kneading technique it had strengthened up very well. The dough was holding itself together and had strength to it even though it was sticky. Left it to bulk ferment overnight.
This morning it was very well risen, much more so than Eric’s dough in the video, and seemed overdone and far too sticky to handle just by looking at it. However when doing the folds the dough soon tightened up and had a good strong structure. Shaping was not as difficult as I thought it might be.
I did not final proof in a basket. As per Eric’s advice, and I can see what he means, this dough would really suit a cloth lined banneton due to its sticky nature. So I final proofed and baked it in a lekue - silicone pouch. More support then freestanding, or in a cloche, but more room to expand then a loaf pan. While this method of baking obviously gave me a big advantage for a tall loaf I have to say even I was surprised. I’ve done other less challenging loaves this way which produced less oven spring so while I was expecting this method to help I wasn’t expecting such good results. This loaf exceeded my expectations and while I would have lost height on a stone or in a cloche I think there’s still potential for good oven spring.
One of the most delicious rye breads i've tasted.
I've baked Eric's fantastic formula several times -- and, this summer, working with a much more stable oven than I have at home, got super-respectable oven spring:
I look forward to joining this, my first community bake, with a different formula.
Very good oven spring and what a lovely caramelised crust.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the Community Bake, Rob.
Handsome loaves Rob, are you happy with the flavor?
Abe, I really like the football (American style) shape of your bread. I really should use the Lekue more often.
Love the crumb.
while my lekue is very handy (main reason being less handling of the dough) I can't wait for my Pullman replacement to arrive. The resulting bread in a Pullman is far superior. I find the baking in a lekue takes a long time and the crust is not as nice. Although it has served me well and do appreciate its ease. Better suited for a bread flour dough.
I made exactly this bread Saturday! I made the sourdough version, using a rye starter. I baked it in a pan. The spices I used were anise and coriander (crushed somewhat), as well as the molasses and orange peel in recipe amounts. I made it as a pan loaf, with a tablespoon of butter poured into the slash before baking. Mixed it up in the morning, fermented all day, shaped in the evening, baked right before bed.
Anise and Coriander with Orange Peel sounds like a lovely mix. Coriander has a citrusy flavour to it too. Neat idea about the added butter to the slash and it's really made a lovely dark crust in contrast to soft crumb Very nice bake indeed! Thank you for sharing, Suminandi.
Long time no see Sumita, wonderful bread you’ve posted.
Lately I've just been baking the same 50-50 WW and AP sourdough every week, so nothing to post about. Last weekend I thought, why not use some of that rye for more than just keeping the starter going?
I do read thefreshloaf to vicariously enjoy all the great baking. Your milk bread bakes have been mouthwatering.
I’m glad to hear that you’re still at it baking bread Sumita. Stay well.
Mix all ingredients in a bowl in the evening. Cover and leave at room temp until morning.650g water150g sunflower seeds60g pumpkin seeds40g chia seeds100g 100% hydration starter past peak (I used rye make sure it is past peak)100g rye flour100g whole wheat flour6g Diastatic malt powder (optional)In the morning the mass should be foamy. Add the rest of the ingredients and mix well until incorporated completely. It should feel like a thick porridge.250g rye flour80g whole wheat flour18g saltleave it to rest 30-60 min before moving to a tin. I used 10” USA Pullman pan. Cover tin and proof to about 30% before baking. Took mine 1hr and 45 min. Preheat oven to 392F. Place tin on rack in middle of oven. Lower temp to 356. Bake 1hr 40 min. Internal temp should be 208F.
Why the formula didn’t format correctly 🤔
Turned out very nice, it improved overtime and enjoyed it to the last slice. Even towards the end of the loaf a week later the flavour was good.
That is a marvellous crumb for a Rugbrod and what a lovely design on top. Thank you so much for sharing your recipe, Donna. I'll definitely be trying it.
Donna this is gorgeous (all the breads are, guys). My Danish blood is calling me! I'm curious about your specification for a starter "past peak." Brotdoc also refers to a "Reifer Sauerteig," which I am interpreting as a pretty mature, ripe, rye starter. Outside of the obvious additional acid, what is it you're looking for with such a starter? Breakdown products, producing certain aromatic qualities?
Still thinking on the bread. Thanks for the thread Abe, and ideas, all.
Hi I just have always been told that it is best to use a rye starter just past peak…not sure of the “science” behind it 😎
Gorgeous Donna, love the crumb and the pattern you made with the seeds on the top.
Yours looked so great. I haven't cut into it yet...trying to resist. It smells divine.
Super tasty looking. Beautiful seed toppings, admiring the creativity of the design. Giving me such great ideas.
Here's Denisa's formula:
So far, at least Danayo and I have made it. It's straigtforward, just one single stage levain, no scald, no malt, and the sweetener can be any of malt syrup, molasses, honey, or maple syrup. I used jaggery, a 100% UN-refined sugar from India.
The highest rye formula bread I'd made before this were the Jewish Deli rye breads clocking in at ~44% rye and all using some preferment, usually a rye sour.
I took Abe's lead and decided this one looked interesting enough to give it a whirl. Alfanso being Alfanso, I can't just leave it alone as is without a few twists. Changes include the shape (obviously), using 100% hydration AP levain, and dropping the overall hydration down to 70%, an Abe suggestion, (but wasn't really as low as 70%, shhh). I also didn't have any anise seeds on hand so I went with my backup and added a splash or two (two!) of Ouzo to compensate, raising the hydration a tad.
When, after ~7 hours, there was no growth I consulted with swami Abe and he suggested that I add a jolt of commercial yeast. Miniscule grains of IDY, a liltle water (that hydration thang), and equal parts of two teaspoons each of bread flour and rye to mix, then slather on the dough and incorporate. That did the trick and within an hour I had the start of growth and in another two hours it had grown more than 50%.
Off it went into the refrigerator for an overnight snooze. Shaped and couched this morning, and then back to the cooler. The dough was surprisingly compliant to shaping after retard. Being fearful of rye's sticky tendencies, I overdid the external flouring of the two loaves and couche and had to whisk off most before they entered the oven.
475dF for 13 minutes w/steam, rotated and steam released, another 10 minutes to ~205dF internal. I'm partial to a dark bake, but these went a shade beyond that in a mere 10 minutes more after the steam was released.
I took my best guess at the formula Abe provided, formatted for 500g x 2 baguettes/long batards.
Wow what a sudden bake, interesting change of shape! Really curious how you like it, I would never think to bake 50% rye as baguettes. You must have some very strong bread flour that you could shape it so nicely and it had such good bloom. Looks great.
the slicing and tasting session commences. I was fairly dubious if I could get away with it until I saw the shaping of the loaves work. Still was questionable as to the oven spring, as too much rye could lead to minimal bloom. But surprised once more.
I ran out of the King Arthur high protein bread flour during the Kernza bakes, so I relied on the backup being off the supermarket shelf Gold Medal brand bread flour. Somewhere close to 12% protein is my guess.
Thanks. The smell is indeed "aroma therapy" territory.
... but it's "directionally true." So I'll say it again, "Alfanso could make good looking baguettes out of 25% sawdust."
I have to agree with Dave on that statement.
Alan, awesome baguettes and I agree with Ilya, I wouldn’t have guessed anyone could make great baguettes with 50% rye, but if anyone could, it would be you.
no, not Don MTloaf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUOBVAbGhQ .
Sometimes baking is not so much fun, but mostly it is!
thanks, Alan (Alligator Al).
(actually it's 2% rye with food coloring!, but hey, ya know...🤡)
and mentioned by me a number of times, is to find a bread that had never been made in baguette form before and then give it a go. I didn't check in advance this time, but I just did and can see only one reference to a 50% rye baguette. And it is, sadly nothing to write home about, especially coming from a bakery - not to be named by me - but one can do their own research. So with that caveat, I'll still claim this is a first.
Still twiddling my thumbs awaiting that bag of "sawdust flour" I ordered a few weeks back.
Thanks, and I feel fortunate to have homed in on as satisfying (and tasty) a hobby.
It's amazing. I aspire to be able to even get close. And the caramelization.
Marvellous baguettes. Never seen rye baguettes before and what's more they look every bit as good as a bread flour baguette but this time with aroma therapy thrown in.
Can't wait to see the crumb and hear what you think of the taste.
my faux deli rye with caraway as baguettes, but contains only 25% rye flour.
I was trying to get myself in a Lotus position in prep for cutting into the loaf for the smell, but couldn't get my legs to cross over correctly and got stuck for a few minutes trying to free my right leg.
Getting old is not a young man's game...
Just wow. Baguettes, for a rye community bake, how lovely!
after seeing these beauties! I bought myself a new toy on sale. A perforated baguette baking pan. The two recipes included are a white flour baggie and a 300g/350g, wheat/white-rye flour baguette. It's a sponge type preferment with yeast. No spices or flavourings mentioned (sounds a bit bland) but a tip to brush the shaped loaf with salt water and to try a variation adding 50g fried onions per baguette to the rye and wheat flour.
If you want to see what a good crumb looks like, give Benny a jingle. It's never been my forte.
Perhaps this is what the crumb should look like? With a baguette, this type of dough can't be as gently formed as a boule or batard so that likely compresses a dense dough more than otherwise. It did get lovely oven spring so at some level it had to have opened up.
Although taste is king. It has a good hearty taste, and nice chew, but the fennel dominates the taste and none of the caraway, orange peel or anise (Ouzo) comes through. I'm sure it's there, but not very obvious to my palate.
Sounds like you wanted something similar to this.... Fencheln
I would have been shocked had it had an open crumb Alligator Al with 50% rye. I am still impressed with the final baked form with beautiful ears and grigne.
Nice looking cover though and it’s a first edition. I suppose you could slice it and toast it in the oven to make Melba Toast. That’s the first thing I pick out of the party mix. Happy Baking
With few exceptions, any bread that goes more than perhaps an overnight becomes fair game for toast or maybe croutons - well not these anyway.
Unsure of what to expect, I had no notion that I'd get this type of oven spring. This book might be a self-help book for the lovelorn "Catch Her In The Rye".
could read..."Catchup in the Rye." Or would that be "Ketchup on the Rye?" I donno.
Taste is King! And i'm sure this lives up to the taste. Even thinking about this bread makes me hungry. TBH I have noticed the all the flavours playing off each other. Perhaps not individually but together they make a lovely aromatic aroma and taste. Then again, i've noticed (when making your raisin, pine nut and fennel sourdough) that the fennel i've used can sometimes be stronger or weaker. I got a strong orange flavour and added texture when using orange marmalade. That's well worth a try.
Ok those rye baguettes look incredible. Nice work! Wow.
One option for you is to scald a portion of the rye to gel it up and compensate for its lack of gluten. The scald can incorporate the flavour elements you want to add as well, which might help them come through more. Then just incorporate the cooled scald into the dough. I wonder if this might help the crumb and loft.
I recently watched your Bouabsa video. Thanks for making that. It's going to be a bake coming up and I was planning on incorporating a rye scald (altus from the pumpernickel loaf) for fun.
Ya know, I never used a scald until I recently made Benny's Hokkaido Milk bread using a Yudan. But I still have no real experience nor understanding of the value of them yet. I guess I have some catching up to do. Thanks for that.
Apparently with Abe's suggestion of using a strong bread flour, although mine was only a standard brand bread flour, there is enough oomph in the mixture to provide the gluten for this bread.
Yikes, I made that video for an acquaintance not all that long after figuring out how to do things. The basics are there, but some little details have shifted over time - the most obvious to me is the significant paring down of number of French Folds (thanks to MTloaf), and also providing 5 minute rests at certain stages of mixing.
Funny I've been increasing the number of FF while making baguettes lately!
Still not having received my baking tools, I was looking for a simple rye recipe that wouldn't require any special equipment, without any malt powders etc. I had a bag of coarse rye schrot, and could only use whole grain rye flour - still not sure where to get light or medium rye. So I was scouring the ploetzblog and homebaking websites for options. Found this one: https://www.ploetzblog.de/2020/09/12/roggenbrot-mit-versaeuertem-schrot/ While it uses medium rye, typically whole rye flour can be used instead with perhaps a slight water adjustment (which is always needed anyway).
So I went ahead and otherwise followed the recipe very closely. Despite my starter not having been fed for quite some time, in the later morning about 13 hours after mixing the preferment looked and smelled very nice. Then the process was quite quick, just 30 min "bulk" fermentation, and then the bread is shaped and proofed. I degassed it quite thoroughly when shaping, in the recipe it's not really indicated how to shape it exactly, and whether to retain as much gas a possible or not. Then I made a change by proofing seem side up instead of down as per the recipe, and for baking flipped to bake seem side down. Just feels more natural to me. During proofing the dough expanded quite a bit and had clear holes and cracks. I probably could have baked it earlier than the recommended 90 min, but I was busy preparing lunch so just waited almost the full time. The dough didn't flatten when turned out, but also didn't get much oven spring. Got some cracks on the surface during baking. It was baking a long time, so I was worried about the crust being very hard, so a couple of minutes before taking it out I sprinked some water on the bread. I think it did soften the crust, but the look is much less appealing with grey flour on the surface instead of bright white with nice contrast.
I was planning to leave it until tomorrow to cut, but my girlfriend was hungry, so it was just cut open for a late night snack.
So despite early cutting it's not at all gummy but a little moist. Even slices well with a serrated knife, although a straight edge makes a cleaner cut.
Very flavourful, with some noticable acidity, but not overpowering. Nice rye flavour and pleasant texture. Also there is some lingering aftertaste of some kind of sharpness, like it's a bit spicy?.. Very interesting subtle flavour note. Highly recommend this recipe!
Looks great Ilya and amazing that the flavour was already developing on the day of baking. I’d imagine it being even better tomorrow or Thursday.
Thanks Benny, indeed very happy with this bake and hoping it bets even better with time! Let's see whether it lasts until Thursday, my girlfriend liked it a lot, so it might disappear quickly.
The look reminds me of a typical Auvergne Rye. There are two kinds I believe. One with a more pronounced tang than the other. Rye breads really do improve with age. My Danish Rugbrod lasted a week and improved right until the very last slice which I enjoyed a lot more than the first.
That's a good hearty loaf.
Thank you Abe. I think the flavour will become more balanced with time, and indeed the bread will keep improving as long as it's not eaten.
Looks good! The texture of the "schrot" sounds like a nice addition, might try this recipe as well. Avoiding the hassle with keeping the bread "right-side-up" indeed makes life easier. Perhaps if you still want a "cracked" upper surface, you can place seam-side-down in the basket, then flip out to bake?
I'm quite new to using schrot, but I like it. Indeed it adds nice heterogeneity to the crumb texture.
Yes, I wonder what it would look like proofed seem side down, but baked seem side up...
Such a great word! You made me finally get around to installing a translate extension in my browser so I could read this recipe....I mean I *probably* could have translated it okay, but didn't want to take the chance.
You were so helpful with my search for *real* pumpernickel that this one will be next on my list. All rye all the time. Perfect. I might add some sunflower seeds for a little crunch. And bonus, I probably have time to pull this off today, as the pumpernickel is just about gone.
You are not going to believe it, but my gf liked this bread so much she asked for it again, and suggested adding sunflower seeds! I think it'll work great. There is some interesting texture from the schrot already, but not the same as the seeds, since it soaks in the preferment for a long time. Adding some seeds just to the final dough should add even more textural contrast. And of course flavour.
That bread looks very inviting—you definitely have a magic touch with rye.
I like the chew of the Roggenschrot grob, but do you find that it has softened enough? I have made a couple of recipes with it where I thought I might hurt my teeth on it.
Thank you! Yes, it's definitely soft enough, just adds a little chew to the crumb.
Added 75g of sunflower seeds. It smells divine, but I'm trying to hold off on actually cutting into it until tomorrow. I also sprayed with water when it came out of the oven, which ruined the beautiful white crust. Oh well. It wasn't all that hard to flip I just put a piece of parchment on my hand and then flipped again to bake.
That looks and sounds really good! Hope you like the result.
I think I'm going to start it again today as well, and also with sunflower seeds. I also bought some bread spice after all the recent discussions here and considering adding some... But I'm worried my girlfriend won't like it as much then, it'll probably taste quite different.
Looks great, can't wait to see the crumb.
I personally like the aesthetics of free-form, cracked-surface rye loaves; here's an attempt at the basic (sourdough) rye bread recipe from Lutz Geißler and Björn Hollensteiner's "Brotbackbuch #2" - just rye flour, water, salt and (rye) starter.
I maintain a small quantity of rye starter so "stage 0" was feeding enough to have 60 grams of 100% hydration whole rye starter ready.
Sourdough stage 1 (Monheimer salt method): 60 g starter, 290 g whole rye flour, 325 g water, 6 grams of salt. The recipe calls for 20-24h at 20°C, but the sponge was clearly at/beyond peak after 18h so I went ahead with the bake. (The whole rye flour I used is from a local organic farmer - it is tasty but I have noticed its water uptake is lower than some other ryes I have baked with. The sponge was therefore very "wet" and this may have contributed to the activity).
Stage 2: Add 325g type 1150 rye flour, 130 g water (warm - 50C), and 7 grams of salt. Mixed with a sturdy spoon in a couple of stages over ~ 10 min, resulting in a modestly stiff pasty dough.
Bulk proofed for 2 hours at 24°C, then shaped into a boule. Shaping of 100% rye loaves remains a struggle for me, and I had to be quite generous with the flour. Placed into a (well-floured!) lined banneton, smooth side up. Generously dusted with flour and left to proof for a further 90 minutes. As the dough expands, it forms cracks on the surface; I dusted these with a bit further flour. (According to the recipe this helps promote a finer cracking pattern ... both in this bake and in the past I am not sure how much this really contributes).
With the oven and baking stone pre-warmed in the meanwhile, then came the hard part: the upper surface in the proofing basket also needs to be the upper surface for baking. With probably too much hesitation, I tossed the bread out of the basket and onto a piece of parchment paper for transfer into the oven; due to the hesitation the bread landed a bit on its side and the loaf was slightly lopsided as a consequence. Upon impact the bread spreads and the surface cracks widen, creating the contrasting surface appearance. Then into a 250C oven, steamed, and baked for 55 minutes with temperature dropping down to 210C over the bake. Smelled wonderful!
Waited overnight to slice in - although the crumb is not photographed so nicely here, it turned out nicely moist without being gummy at all, no "sticking to the knife" (there is a slightly denser region at very bottom of loaf visible, but not so noticable on eating). Nice "herby" flavor with a distinct sour note.
Now I'm out of 1150 rye flour - time to source some more, then perhaps will try a different style rye bread.
That looks great, and the recipe very similar to what I just posted right before you! I avoided the awkward tossing of the bread out of the proofing basket by proofing it upside down. I guess the outside of the bread is less pretty this way, but it's way easier.
Very handsome giant crinkle cookie, I mean rye loaf you baked Mike. I love the look of these rye breads that have the organic cracks contrasting with the white flour. Well baked.
Like the cracks on top and the flouring works well too. Reminds me of a Broa de Milho. Is the salt in the levain just to slow it down or bring out some other characteristic?
Very nice bake indeed and looking forward to your next one.
Same as in the recipe I followed, this one is based on the Mohnheimer salt-sour process, a German style of one-stage rye sour. There is an explanation here, for example: https://www.homebaking.at/en/mohnheimer-salzsauer-verfahren/ Except in these recipes the yeast are not added, so the final rise is longer and the bread is more sour.
I'm flipping between them. They are almost identical. It's curious because salting starters is supposed to make them less sour, I think, and yet this is done to increase sour. I shall have to study them.
Yes, I was also struck by how we independently chose almost identical recipes. But that's the Monheimer sourdough, so a lot of recipes out there would be using it I guess.
I think salt affects yeast more than LABs... It certainly extends the ripening time (mine was on the shorter side, but I suspect using schrot speeds things up, before it absorbs water there is more free water and fermentation goes faster, perhaps?), and so increases acidity. It's a very simple recipe with very little work, perhaps try it for yourself at some point.
Indeed funny we posted such similar breads almost at the same time! The recipes are from the same author, so perhaps not too surprising there are some commonalities! In Geißler's "#4" book, he gives recipes for a similar bread, but made with six (!) different sourdough build methods, ranging from simple one-stage to a five-stage "foam sourdough" build.
His comments on the Monheimer method: the salt addition retards the lactic acid bacteria more than the yeast. This results in a mildly sour flavor with a lot of complexity, good rising power, and also a broad time window for use. He recommends to start the sponge at 35C via the water temperature, then let drop to room temperature. (You also should not this method with a sourdough starter which is maintained containing salt; in this case the lactic acid bacteria are used to the salt and will develop too rapidly).
He also mentions an experiment where 18 German bakers baked the same recipes, comparing the Monheimer, Detmolder one-stage, and Detmolder three-stage methods; the outcome was the Monheimer had the best flavor, while rise and oven spring behavior were similar for all. Given the combination of simplicity and good results, can understand why Lutz uses it in many recipes.
Thank you, that's very interesting info! Indeed in this case it sounds like Monheimer process is the winner. So simple and great results.
I wonder whether he had this kind of general info somewhere on his website. My German is not that great though anyway, so thank you for sharing!
Not everything he publishes also goes on the website, I guess he wants to make a living by selling his books! But he does have some more info about the Monheimer method here:
(My German is also not very good, so it is definitely handy to be able to use Google Translate...)
I have just about no familiarity with breads so high in rye flour, and was under the impression that they needed long low temps to bake, and then a day's wait before slicing into.
The rye sour that I use for a deli rye bread (kudos to dmsnyder) has a similar look, although unbaked, to your baked dough. In a bowl it is a great way to determine fermentation as the top splits into "continents".
There's a huge variety of rye bread out there, and it's definitely an interesting experience to shape a 100% rye dough if you're more used to wheat. Give it a try!
Beautiful Mike, and I know that tastes delicious. When you say you're using Type 1150 rye, where are you getting it from? I ask because I use KA Medium Rye, which I think is closer to a T 1370 than 1150 but close enough.
I'm in the Netherlands so my sources will probably not be so useful for you. I just finished baking through a large stock of "approximately 1150" milled and sifted by a friend who volunteers at his local windmill (many historical windmills here are maintained by hobbyists, they mill and sell flour for a bit of fundraising - though in this case not milled on the historical equipment). I just resupplied with a more standardized flour from Mühle Kottman.
I unfortunately won’t be able to participate in this fine Rye CB which is getting off to a roaring start I must say. So my only contribution will be my last two 100% rye bakes.
The first is my Tourte de Siegle.
Apparently this bread is also known as tourte Auvergnate. It is a 100% whole rye loaf and mine was made without any commercial yeast although I’ve seen recipes that use it in as a sponge along with the rye sour. Those who are familiar with baking rye sourdoughs know that they ferment very quickly. From building the first stage of the rye levain until the loaf is out of the oven only took 18 hours. However, you’re also likely aware that rye breads need time to “cure” after baking so I think they are best if you wait 24-48 hours before slicing. Based on my first bake of a 100% rye loaf I will wait 48 hours because I found that the rye flavour was more pronounced at 48 compared with 24 hours, and if you’re baking a 100% rye sourdough you want to taste the rye, no?
When recipes for rye say to flour the countertop or your hands, they do mean generously. At the time of shaping I didn’t have quite enough flour down and was getting a ton of sticking. Fortunately if you have your dough scraper handy, and of course you would, it is easy enough to get more flour under that sticky dough. I use the word shape loosely because really you’re molding the dough into a boule. Forget trying to create any tension, there isn’t the gluten of wheat in this dough so really you’re moulding it like clay.
Stage 1 sponge (Day 1, Evening):
Ingredient Grams 2x800g loaves 1x900 g loaf (0.5625) Baker’s
Wholegrain rye flour 118 66 g 100%
Warm (105°F/41°C) water 118 66 g 100%
Rye sour culture 14 8 g 12%
Mix the sponge ingredients by hand, cover and ferment at room temperature (70°F/21°C) overnight, 10-12 hours. The sponge will have tripled in volume and be very bubbly.
Stage 2 sponge (Day 2, Morning):
Ingredient Grams 2x800 g loaves 1x900 g loaf Baker’s
Stage 1 sponge 250 140 g 100%
Wholegrain rye flour 250 140 g 100%
Warm (105°F/41°C) water 250 140 g 100%
Combine the Stage 1 sponge and the Stage 2 ingredients in the mixer bowl, cover and ferment at room temperature until the dough has visibly expanded and shows cracks or broken bubbles, 1½-2 hours.
Final Dough (Day 2, Midday):
Combine the Stage 1 sponge and the Stage 2 ingredients in the mixer bowl, cover and ferment at room temperature until the dough has visibly expanded and shows cracks or broken bubbles, 1½-2 hours.
Final Dough (Day 2, Midday):
In the mixer bowl, combine the final dough ingredients and use the dough hook at low (KA2) speed to mix until fully blended into a soft, sticky dough that gathers around the hook but doesn’t leave the sides of the bowl, 5-6 minutes.
Cover the bowl and ferment at room temperature until the dough doubles in volume and shows cracks or broken bubbles, 1½-2 hours.
Turn the dough onto a well-floured work surface. Use floured hands to gently shape into a boule, then place boule seam side up in a floured linen-lined banneton or cloth-lined proofing basket. Cover and proof at room temperature until the dough has visibly expanded and shows cracks or broken bubbles, 20-30 minutes.
Preheat the oven to 445°F/230°C with the baking surface in the middle. Turn the loaf onto a well-floured peel, if using a baking stone, or a parchment-lined sheet pan.
Bake without steam for 15 minutes, then lower the temperature to 430°F/220°C and bake for an additional 15 minutes. Reduce the temperature again to 390°F/200°C and bake until the loaves thump when tapped with a finger and the internal temperature is at least 200°F/93°C, 30-40 minutes. Transfer to a rack and cool thoroughly before slicing.
My other was a Danish Sourdough Rye Rugbrod by Jennifer Lapidus
There have been quite a few posts lately regarding various rye breads, after finally getting my hands on a barley malt syrup, I decided I would try to bake one myself. I had borrowed Southern Ground by Jennifer Lapidus and decided to try baking her Danish Rye bread since I had almost all the ingredients. Being from the south of the US she includes sorghum syrup which I understand is common there, so I subbed the barley malt in for it.
Her recipe created a lot more levain than one needs, I didn’t check the calculations ahead of time and only realized that when the levain was being weighed, I’ve adjusted the recipe so there wouldn’t be any waste with future bakes. Her recipe was also for a 8x4” pan where I have a deep 9x4x4” Pullman so I think I would want to increase the final dough weight even more than I already have in the future to get a slightly taller loaf. That being said, it would be smart to actually taste this bread before baking it again in a larger size, I haven’t had a 100% rye bread in many many years so I don’t recall if I actually like them or not.
I wondered if I had underproofed the loaf given its short stature, but I think it would have torn as it baked if it was underproofed. The final proof went much faster than the recipe estimated taking only 2h45min instead of the 4-8 hours. When I saw a few holes appears on the top crust I started the oven and put the dough into the fridge to try to slow it down to avoid overproofing. As always the crumb will be most important and I won’t slice it open until tomorrow afternoon at the earliest.
Because I keep such a small amount of starter I added a first stage levain build in order to make enough levain. The ingredient weights for the 8x4” pan are from her book without adjustment other than adding the first stage. The weights for the 9x4” pan are my adjusted to fit a 9x4” pan but not yet increased to make a larger/taller loaf.
YIELD: 1 (8 X 4-INCH) PAN LOAF
10 g starter
40 g water
40 g whole rye flour
LEAVEN (8 TO 12 HOURS)
100g whole-rye flour
SOAKER (8 TO 12 HOURS)
150g hulled pumpkin seeds
75g hulled sunflower seeds
100g cold water
113g warm water (about 85°F)
226g whole-rye flour
1½ teaspoons sorghum syrup or light molasses, I have barley malt
11.3g fine sea salt
soaker (above), drained
I would increase the ingredients by 50% if you wanted to fill the Pullman.
Every one very well done indeed! Nice patterns and crumb. And thank you for sharing the recipes with a very detailed write-up. Three more choices for the community bake.
I think Danish Rugbrod does hold a special place amongst my favourite rye breads. Just so much flavour going on. Alongside Eric's recipe from breadtopia.
Thank you Abe, I didn’t post Eric’s rye here because it is below the 50% that I think was the idea for this CB. I can see that this CB has a ton of enthusiasm and it’s exciting to see what everyone is already baking. I’m excited to see the upcoming bakes to come.
We'll forgive the starter which he doesn't include as part of the flour in which he describes as 50% rye. A rye starter can be used in it's place. I think he just used whatever he had going and at 1/4 cup it was only about 30g bread flour.
This is proving to be a very lively community bake with some really lovely bakes.
The showcase format provides quite a concentrated hit of creative input. Thanks for organizing it.
Thought i'd catch the rye fever in its peak and get a community bake started. I took everyone's input into consideration and decided in order to make it accessible and inclusive anything 50% rye and above should be considered. The rest is in your court. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
I particularly like the loaf pan and its enticing cross section.
If the stars align this time maybe we can figure out how to work some "oven magic" together.
That would be a fun time had by all! With some luck we will be in your city tomorrow afternoon 🤞🏻
My son, (The Prince of Pie) gave me a 5lb bag of farmers market organic stone-ground rye! I will be making the suggested recipe, maybe today? For now, please enjoy a previous bake, formula by my favorite "Rye Baker"
Spiced Honey Rye
Set your transporter to the French countryside. This French interpretation of gingerbread is lighter and quick to make due to the chemical leavening. I found it just sweet enough to go with your favorite jams or savory toppings. Another winner brought to us
by Stanley Ginsberg!
Spiced Honey Bread. Martin Philip, from his book "Breaking Bread: A Baker's Journey Home in 75 Recipes".
I'd forgotten that I indeed did once bake a 100% rye in mini loaf pans, and was "featured" in the No Comfort Zone CB last March. This is not a "new" bake for this CB by any means, but I have to backtrack on my earlier statement that I'd never baked anything north of ~44% rye until this CB.
The leavening agent in this bread is baking soda, which I’ve never used before for my breads. There is no water, but rather a combination of milk, honey and molasses to provide most of the 242% hydration. This bread uses 5 spices and orange zest, and has no Bulk Ferment.
Mix, pour, bake! The bread is designed for baby loaf pans 3.5" x 5.5”.
Enough to pique my interest, and certainly a tasty "dessert" loaf, it is a more complicated pan loaf mix than the flavor warrants. Basically requiring the baker to empty out the kitchen cupboards for the ingredient list. A bit too fussy for me.
It was a fun adventure at least this one time. Certainly more of a quick bread rather than an "artisan" bread.
dough (still waiting for me to do something with it) and add rum, milk, and fresh cut up apples, I think it would come out with something similar. I thought about it the other day as I worked the last kilo wrinkled winter apples from my garden. ...just didn't know how to tackle the thought.
Trying to work on some pretty spare formulas from Geissler and Brotdoc, with the "end-up-flipping" technique, giving the nicely cragged lines as shown above. This one didn't quite get there, lol. This is the "Landbrot Nach Alter Art" as described on Brotdoc's site. I missed my DDT of 30C, and my "proofing" DIY chamber wasn't up to the set temp of 30C, so I extended the bulk fermentation from the formula's 30 minutes to 50 minutes.
Visually, a total mess. The "end" surface, kept at bottom for proofing and up-ended for the bake, was way too loosely "crimped," as you can see by comparing Brotdoc's pic:
to my results:
And it was clearly not the same "glänzend,""shiny" or satiny quality of Brotdoc's loaf. Very (differently/) caramelized, as well, without that nice golden hue, and blacker edges due to the severe tearing of my loaf. Basically, visually way off. I think I was hoping or some of the quality of earlier bakes along similar lines:
-but with that golden, satiny quality of Brotdoc's, without the flour "relief."
I have a tendency, especially when I don't know something well yet, to believe "if a little is good, a lot just has to be great!", so I'm wondering if I OD'ed on the pre-loading spritzing of the loaf. I also really slathered on the water post-bake, though he does call for a generous dosing both pre- and -post bake.
Texturally and taste-wise, this is an excellent bread. I'm loving the development of malty notes in these breads. Comparing my crumb to Brotdoc's, my crumbs is still more tight and regular, less dramatic, less "seized up in the midst of a frenzy." I used to be able to get this quality but it has been so many years ago; seems like now I can make a tasty bread with well-developed gluten chew, but cannot get open and irregular breads to save my life. I suspect it must be rough pre-shaping or shaping, because I can't see any dramatic evidence of underproofing. I deign to you guys here as well.
I'm doing Geissler's "Fröstlberg Malt Crust" and amended it slightly in two ways: rather than just a straight rye flour scald and maintenance at 75C, I added in 15 grams (active, brewing) rye malt flour and maintained the Malzstück at a saccharification range favoring alpha-amylase activity, 68C. He calls for 8-12 hours and I only held it to 6 hours. Especially at the a-amylase range, saccharification is almost entirely complete in 2 hours so I haven't yet figured out the purpose of this long 8-12 hold he has. Anyone?
It also involves the "flipping" technique to get the loaf from the brotform to the peel. More to report on this "Fröstlberg" later.
This thread and these breads are astounding, and I'm learning a ton. Thanks Abe and all. Looking forward to so more.
1. Mix the sourdough ingredients well and leave to mature from 30 °C to room temperature for 10 to 14 hours.
edit: whoops, bake log date obviously wrong. It was done yesterday.
And thank you for bringing this lovely recipe to our attention. I'm going to feature it above.
That's kind Abe. Thanks.
Thank you Mini! Can I ask what you did? Looks like you warmed the hue up a bit too, or no?
Stay away from blue lights like fluorescent ones. The light in Doc dough's photo are warmer lights, more yellow. You can also photograph when the sun is lower and not high in the sky.
Great tip. Thanks Mini.
The above-mentioned Fröstlberg Malt Crust from Lutz Geißler. The baking log, which includes my notes, is at bottom.
Edit: Don't know why some was nuked. This is post-proof, which took 75 minutes:
And this is final loaf. 60 minute bake and 5 minutes off for a total of 65 minutes. Interior temp = 96 C. The crust was really hard - toothbreakingly hard, which is something I've experienced with this type (e.g., Lutz's "Rauris Rye" or "Alpine" rounds). This one has no steam. Is this why? I sprayed it prodigiously with water as I set it to cool. Was that the right move, to soften the crust a bit?
1. Mix the sourdough ingredients well and leave to mature from 20 °C to room temperature for 12 to 16 hours.
That's a beautiful looking rye loaf, Paul. Love the cracked pattern on top. Thank you for the very detailed recipe. More for everyone to choose from.
Yes. You can tell if a loaf is over dark and too krispy, a brick, when it is hot from the oven. I have even set a loaf on a cold rack in the sink and run water over it. Usually there is some tepid boiled water in the kettle to use. Very common here to brush rye loaves with a thin wet glaze or water when coming from a wood oven. Use a big brush too! Like for wall paper paste or a 4"+ paint brush. Or just run it under the tap for all of 3 seconds. Then off to the cooling rack.
to be brushed with water before going into the oven and then it's baked with no steam.
I've seen that too. Am I right in thinking this will:
-increase spring and volume;
-increase caramelization of the crust, as well as make for a thicker crust (the heat penetrates more, before the crust forms a barrier)
Just enough moisture to assist oven spring. But not too much is needed as rye won't oven spring like wheat. It'll help caramelise the crust. As for making a thicker crust i'm not sure about. These are just educated guesses. Assuming it'll have a similar affect to brushing straight after baking. But I may be wrong.
Another thing, since recipes rarely mention it, is fan on or off. I'm thinking fan off for breads like these where the brushing with water before baking will have a better affect.
Interesting and helpful points, thanks Abe. I'd think post-bake water would only soften the crust whereas pre-baking would increase spring, crust thickness, etc. - My uneducated guessing, lol.
Interesting too on the fan. We don't have the option nor do we have a top-bottom option (which would be awesome for pizzas). But I can see the logic.
Water after baking might be to soften the crust and before is for spring and thickness. Makes sense.
So maybe a brush of water before baking and after baking or a glaze?
I have top, bottom, fan on or off. And when recipes don't specify I have 5 combinations of these to choose from. Normally fan off and bottom coil on for the main part of the bake then both coils and and fan on for the remainder. But i'm thinking twice about rye which may just be fan off for the whole bake. I'm not sure.
Thanks Mini. I sprayed pretty well, but nothing like an extended brushing (i.e., lots of doubling and tripling or more on coverage with water) nor what you said, in the sink (I love it - that's wild!). Is it too late now, or would you have any recommendations to continue to ease the hardness?
Peel an apple, core and section it and place wedges inside the overnight plastic bag with the loaf.
I would not run it underwater when cold, the crust will get all funny wet and flakey, like a dried out mud flat. Not very impressive.
Ha! That is ingenious and I have to tell you, it's probably not news to you that anything fresh apple and rye hits my palate as a wonderful, natural pairing (not that I imagine that takes place here. Or does it?). I think we've talked and shared of that (sometime, for me) green-apple quality of a good rye starter?
OH MY GOD. Mini, you are a miracle worker. I just opened the bread from its "apple bag" this morning and dug in. This very well might be my new favorite rye bread. The crust is just....wonderful, for want of a better word. Perfect, at least by my taste. Bit chewy but totally pleasant give and, it may be auto-suggestion, but I pick up the faintest aroma of apple blossom. Such a treatment begs further playing, for me, for the possibility of such a lovely quality by design.
I liked Lutz's formula but like this even more, which is nothing but the modest addition of active rye malt powder or flour (I just got whole malt and ground it in a spice grinder) and maintenance in definite amylase range for fewer hours.
EDIT: I am now determined to get the quality, a mild but evident contribution, of apple into this bread. Not sure how yet - thinking the water itself whether by steeping with slices, peelings, blossoms, or the volatiles would evanesce as it cooks, don't know - but for me it's a sensory winner, want to find out how to do it. Double winner, Mini, Vielen Danke!
just a tabespoon or so in the water? Grated apple? Chopped dry apple?
Or blend an apple and add some to the dough. Will also add some pectin for a nice texture, and improve keeping qualities. How much to add is another question though...
Might be heading up the right tree.
Thanks you guys. These are great ideas. I may be reaching too much with this connection but for some reason it really hit me a few "times" back on mounting up a new rye starter, and Mini, with your idea - and the aroma as I opened the bag - it really screamed out.
Looking forward to trying these. Many thanks again, merci, vielen Dank!
Wow I can’t keep up just reading about your bakes Paul, this one is a stunner.
Merci, mon ami talentueux.
Both of your ryes look delicious. You certainly have selected a couple of challenging recipes to start.
How do you maintain the temperature for the Malzstück? I have an Inkbird controller and a slow cooker but I haven't decided whether that is the best combo for these scalds.
Thanks! I do exactly as you're thinking. Works great. Well, I use a rice cooker because my wife's slow cooker unfortunately has to be re-selected (digitally) every time it shuts off from the Inkbird. The rice cooker is great, I just float the container in that and, keeping it on "cook" it goes only a degree or so C high from the target temp. ("maintain" has a hard time recovering target temp once it goes low). His Kenwood sounds awesome - pretty nice to have the two machines!
> The crust was really hard - toothbreakingly hard, which is something I've experienced with this type
Your comment about the crust came to mind when I saw Elly's Simple 100% Whole Grain Rye Sourdough Bread video. After removing her bread from the oven, she wraps it in towels as it cools overnight, which she says keeps the crust softer. Her videos are so relaxing!
Well done on all of the beautiful rye bakes.
Sorry, I thought I'd replied but I don't see it. Thanks for this, a great idea and will try it. And for Elly's video. I've never watched her but I am instantly home. The accent alone always puts me at ease!
I’ve been lurking on this site for a while, especially after I bought The Rye Baker. I seem to have caught rye fever at the exact same time as many others.
I had hoped to contribute a Horst Bandel Black Pumpernickel, but I over-hydrated the dough and it didn’t turn out well enough to show anyone.
So here is Sweet Limpa from the rye baker. It is very quick and easy, and produces a sweet and tender loaf. I had no idea 100% rye could turn out like this.
I’ll probably be back in a few days with a better attempt at the Horst Bandel.
Tried a few but many more to work through. Quick and easy, sweet and tender, rye loaf? Sounds lovely and looks delicious. Looking forward to your next bake.
Wow - those are beautiful! I've only baked a few from Stanley's book (love the East Berliner especially). I'll have to try this one.
A pair of beauties, well done.
Sweet and tender sounds like just the ticket. Looking forward to your Horst bandel now
Wow, those look great! I haven't really delved much into the "Scandinavian" chapter of the Rye Baker, I will have to give these a try. Looking at the recipe, the milk, spices and molasses sound like they should deliver a very tasty bread.
Okay, I would like to play along even though I am not sure what I am doing with a 50% rye in the dough, as I have never done that before. Are you sure 50% rye will be good enough to play here?
Anyway, I have just put together a biga as pictured below. It will ferment for 48 hours before I use it. It consists of 50% dark rye, 40% bread, and 5% WW for a 95% preferment. The left over 5% will be a 60% hydration levain.
I have just created a levain as shown below.
Biga out of the fridge with no rise, which is supposed to be.
That's an awful long time unless you allow it to ripen and then refrigerate.
Which recipe do you have in mind?
Yes, I leave it on the counter until I can smell a hint of fermentation, usually 3-6 hours, and then I put it in the fridge. I have also done frequently by putting it in my basement for 24 hours without refrigeration. My basement is usually around 55-60 F in the winter.
I do not follow anyone's recipe, I just pulled it out of my head, hope it will work but even if it does not it will still be a fun thing to do.
Whatever happens i'm sure it'll be fun to do. Looking forward to whatever you come up with. Take a look at other recipes for ideas on how rye should be handled. I'm thinking of doing the same thing. Have a few ideas forming of my own. Was going to do one sooner however I had just baked a big loaf the day before I posted the community bake and want to finish that off first.
Best of luck.
Bulk ferment for about 4 hours, longer than expected.
Divide, shape, and then proof.
Couldn't bake last night as planned so I had to fridge the shaped baguettes to bake this morning. It was a total disappointment. I was not surprised at all to see a tight crumb but was shocked that they did not expand much in the oven like it would with my regular baguettes which usually have about 40% whole grain. They did have a rich whole grain taste which I like. My visiting mom and I ate both for lunch. Nonetheless, from this experience I don't think I am anxious to do more rye bake anytime soon. Thanks Abe to bring the urge out of me to try this fun experiment. Cheers!
By my eyes, those looks absolutely gorgeous and I'm betting that they were delicious as well. I admire your setting high standards for yourself. I hope you find your way back to "The Dark Side," as Mini-Oven told me the first time I
fell from gracedevoted myself to learning rye.
By my eyes, those looks absolutely gorgeous and I'm betting that they were delicious as well. I admire your setting high standards for yourself. I hope you find your way back to "The Dark Side," as Mini-Oven told me the first time I
fell from gracedevoted myself to learning rye.
Thanks for your nice comment. There was a grain sweetness aftertaste which I really like. Cheers!
Oven shot after 12 min covered bake. Wanted to bake one loaf at a time to test the water but it did not make a difference anyway.
Hadjiandreou's 100% rye with caraway & grapefruit zest.
I couldn't have done this without amazing help from Abe and MiniOven (see https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69750/hadjiandreous-corianderorange-zest-100-rye)
It's a flavorful & easy recipe ...
... once you figure out two steps Hadjiandreou was a bit unspecific with:
--cover the levain completely with the dry ingredients before adding the boiled water & then stir it all together.
--Hadjiandreou proofs hot -- starting at 50C/120F
oops -- coriander
Rob that looks fine. Did you do the recipe as written for weighs and what size is your pan? Did the recipe specify pan size anywhere it’s hard to read the photo of the page on my iPhone.
thanks Benny. It should have been in a smaller & narrower loaf pan. I increased the recipe by 25% - but that didn't compensate enough for my oversized pan. So I got a more horizontal loaf than I would have if I had the correct pan.
Otherwise, I pretty much followed the recipe w a few tiny tweaks:
-- I followed Abe's afvice & fermented 10 g starter w 50g flour and 50g water for 10 hours and used that to mix the levain
-- Due to a quirk in my work schedule, I fermented the levain for about 12 hours.
Not to be a pest but what pan size did you use?
... but the recipe specifies a 500g/1lb loaf pan and my pan is prob about double that size
Thanks so maybe 8x4” or 9x5” then. I’ve saved and written out the recipe I looks like a nice one to try eventually.
so, I checked my pan: it's marked 10x5.
Wow that’s a big pan Rob, thanks for checking on that of me, much appreciated.
You'll need something like this. The 3 holes at the bottom of the pan helps make a nice crust. With very liquid doughs it 'might' leak out a bit but won't be much of a problem. Rye dough even though high hydration tends not to be so liquid. You might just need to wipe it away once and then it stops leaking. For normal doughs it won't ever be an issue. Or you could put a piece of parchment paper on the bottom. However these pans make very nice loaves.
despite being 100% hydration, this dough was not liquidy at all (caveat: I used Farmer Ground flour, which is coarsely ground -- a finer grind might produce a less viscous mix.)
That crumb you have there is typical of rye. And really glad you enjoy the taste. Orange and Coriander sound like a lovely paring. Just want to echo Benny here... You would have gotten a taller loaf with using a smaller loaf pan. The only thing off is the size of the pan to the dough. Judging from the photos you need to either double up on the dough or use a pan that's half the size. Otherwise that is an excellent loaf. And thank you for bringing our attention to the recipe.
For sure you are rght. I looked for but didn't find a smaller loaf pan in retail stores here in NYC. There were some -- but I ddn't like the idea that they were only rated to max 200C/425F. I increased the recipe by 25% -- but that clearly wasn't enough.
So it's more horizontal than it should be.
The blog post: "Rye Flour Classification: Untangling the Mess" by Stanley Ginsberg.
He explains the confusion over "light, medium, dark" and "dark vs whole" and "flour vs meal vs pumpernickel".
Bottom line: There is no industry-wide agreement over what the names and adjectives mean, so the buyer may have to ask for specifications like ash %.
For example: At Bob's Red Mill, they call their whole rye "dark rye." But at Bay State Milling, "dark rye" means whole rye that has had a portion of its endosperm removed. Hence their dark rye is darker (has a higher % of bran and germ) than even whole grain (100% extraction) rye!
If you're confused, this is the article to read.
I've started some rye sprouts to make solod for a Borodinsky, I'm very intrigued by manipulating (essentially) a single ingredient for such depth of flavor, but since that seems to be a week(s) long project, I would like to fit in a quick Rugbrod before this after seeing a few posts above. How do people generally mill rye for Rugbrod? For whole wheat loaves, the rule of thumb is *usually* as-fine-as-possible-for-your-mill, for example, "stones just barely ticking", etc. The main exceptions seem to be coarse soakers for added texture, etc. I recall one post suggesting rye generally benefits from a coarser default grind in order to achieve the right consistency or viscosity that is needed to achieve structure that is provided by gluten in wheat loaves. How do people usually think about home milling rye for 100% rye loaves?
With a link [above in the main body of the community bake] to the YouTube channel and the accompanying video.
Alan (Alfanso) first introduced us to this baker back in 2021 when he posted his Polenta Levain recipe.
Hope you find inspiration. Enjoy!
Edit: Thank you Alan. I posted it above but can't go wrong with having it twice. He does a marvellous job (which is to be expected of course).
I've been working on them already made a few so won't post here. These are "Roggenmischbroten," the mixed ryes that are the breads consumed popularly and daily by German folks. The spare ingredients are like a constraining practice arena, to me, good place to open up to new flavors and techniques,
I thought it might be interesting for some folks to see this graph based on an informal survey Brotdoc did, regarding the preference Germans had for their types of bread. I was not surprised by some, and very surprised by others. See what you think:
I'd just like to add, I don't want to take up the bandwidth gushing about what I'm seeing, so I'll do it here as a general statement of appreciation I'm utterly blown away by the beautiful, inspirational breads here. The creativity is mind-blowing and the mastery is very humbling. In a word, you guys kick my ass and you're a goal worthy to work towards.
Will write more soon. Just a photo and a quick outline of recipe before I forget.
I have a feeling it might be under fermented but ran out of time. Started the dough too late. Ideally i'd have liked to have given the starter + scald more time and have done a bulk ferment with the final dough. We'll see...
As I thought... needed more time. Cut into it just 3 hours after baking but on the whole a very tasty loaf. The walnut, caraway and a slight tang coming through. A very soft crumb!
Think it might improve if left for a bit longer. It's so fresh my knife tears the crumb. I'll take another crumb shot after it's had time to rest.
This looks like an awesome formula, Abe, can't wait to get your further impressions. The issues with terminology, as we've all talked about - unfortunate we don't have a consistent system, like they do in Europe. When you say "Dark Rye," are you saying something like Bob's Red Mill dark, which is simply a whole-grain grind, or do you mean "Dark Rye" as in Bay State's Dark Rye, essentially a rye much llke wheat's first clear, more ash than whole grain?
I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be a false crumb. Built 110g starter and for some reason I only used 50g and the starter + scald really didn't look ready. If it had been ready then i'm sure the final proof of 3 hours would have been fine. I'm thinking the crumb may let me down however if the taste goes by the aroma of when it was baking it'll be tasty.
Here is the Dark Rye I used. Doesn't say much else apart from this flour giving a 'distinctive rich, slightly sour taste, ideal for Scandinavian dark rye breads".
Abe, cultural myopathy, my apologies. For some reason I thought you were in the US. Yeah they don't give any ash content so it's hard to tell but based on descriptions, I strongly suspect that's whole rye flour, and not a kind of what we call in the States First Clear or what, maybe (?) in Germany is referred to as Black Rye, or T2500. All good. Thanks for the pic and the continuing narrative.
To identify the difference between Wholegrain Rye flour and Dark Rye flour by the nutritional content alone? Something like the protein and/or fibre percentage?
Am I right in thinking that Dark Rye (or T2500) flour has more of the bran added to it? Whereas wholegrain is simply nothing added or taken away? If so, we should be able to get an idea by the nutritional value.
I'm not sure on that, because it's not about protein but literally how much ash is left after burn tests. I don't think either protein or nutritional content labeling will give you anything useful in that regard.
It's a good question on whether "dark" can mean, at least with some millers, that bran has been added back in as a kind of blend for darker flour. I had the same question. As I understand at least this interpretation of "Dark," it's more like what we call "First Clear," or what's left over after some of the refined white flour has been drawn away. Dregs, basically!
And didn't come up with anything about ash but rather your second understanding of it.
Dark Rye is wholegrain. Or, can mean wholegrain. T2500, however, has more bran than wholegrain (to give a darker rye) which obviously means there's more added. As to how much that depends on the desired affect. That;s why I thought it'd alter the nutrional value of the flour.
So I think my flour is simply 100% wholegrain. Darker than First Clear but but not as dark as T2500 which has more bran than wholegrain. Ash content of grain is not something i've delved into.
Yeah I really doubt anyone in the UK would bother selling any weird rye flours. It's not that popular. I'm sure Waitrose dark rye is just whole rye.
That should tell you something about ash since they tend to correlate. The more fibre, the higher the ash content.
Online ingredients say wholemeal rye flour https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-dark-rye-flour/865999-261024-261025
I'd wondered, but how would you know - compare to a known whole grain flour?
Taking a known wholegrain rye average nutritional content and then making an educated guess.
Fibre is 17%. How dies that compare to a known wholegrain or T2500?
See page 11-12
Dietary Fibre composition of Rye is roughly 14-21% dietary fibre by weight.
Dietary fibre can be found in three locations with the endosperm containing 12% dietary fibre, the outer endosperm 22% dietary fibre, and the bran 38% dietary fibre based on dry weight.
In the middle of the normal range which makes it Wholegrain Rye.
17g per 100g. So 17% fibre. How does that correlate to wholegrain or T2500?
I think kg-for-kg, First clear would have more bran and be darker than whole grain because whole grain also contains more of the white, inner mass of the endosperm than does First Clear. As to whether they add it in for the T2500 effect, or it's like our First Clear, yeah, I really don't know.
Edit: Mini, do you happen to know how T2500 is made? Reading more - it's an Austrian thing?
to find out. I got caught on this study of wholemeal rye flour until my brain turned into overproofed dough. It is very technical but if you like that kind of thing... Industrial made rye flour
I was looking for high ash content/fibre correlation studies and got a little distracted. One has to look at labeled protein content as well as fibre content. Usually the more protein in the flour, the more fibre (and ash) it contains. The outer parts, bran and outer endosperm contain a good bit of protein and fibre and they are the tasty bits. It makes sense to say that the higher the protein in the rye flour the less increase in loaf volume for a 100% rye bread. Gosh, I love those "bricks!"
I hadn't thought of that (how protein may be suggestive), that makes great sense. I tell you one thing - I conquered sourcing for solod.....now I am dying to try a true R 2500!
Hahahahaha - that is poetry. And no, I've never been there....lol!
Well, took awhile - seems even German bakers are perplexed, especially because it's an Austrian flour - again that's just from info I've searched over the last bit of time. I got this from Bon'gu, which may be telling that it is something like a First Clear?
"A whole grain rye flour finely ground without germ." That sounds a lot like, but not exactly, First Clear, to me anyway. Maybe literally only bran, which is why it's used sparingly?
When I saw your original comment about the 'white' flour taken away I just took that to mean it's not wholegrain!
But the germ is the tastiest and healthiest part of the grain. I'd be tempted to just use wholegrain and if I wished to replicate T2500 perhaps add in some more bran.
I am wandering blind here my friend, but I believe R2500 is more like it's ground bran- maybe more so than first clear, which presumably even keeps some of the endosperm.
I'm with you on just adding in some bran. I am bummed in a way that we just don't have the rye traditions here that support all the different grades of rye (hmm...maybe time for a change of permanent scenery). I saw Lutz tried an experiment with 100% R2500, and it was a gummy disaster. My understanding is they use it in limited amounts for added color, "juiciness" ("saftig" quality) and keeping quality. So maybe almost a kind of adjunct?
Now, if you scroll down to rye...
Roggen 960 type. 80% of the whole kernal is milled and recommended for use with mixed flour breads.
Roggenmehl type 2500, dark, known as black rye flour, you might be able to read that they recommend to use 10% and not more than 20% of the total recipe flour. (It is sold in 800g packages to emphasize this suggestion, it is smaller than the standard one kilo packages sold for most flours.)
for 100g Brennwert in kJ: 1324kJ
Brennwert in kcal: 316kcal
Davon Gesättigte Fettsäuren: 0,20g
Davon Zucker: 6,8g
Ballaststoffe: 12,8g. <------fibre
Eiweiß: 6,90g <-----protein
Roggenvollkornmehl is 100% all kernal, very dark, only a very small part removed during grain cleaning. This flour is used for Vollkornbrot, whole grain bread,
Thanks Mini. It was interesting to me that I found virtually no info on what Schwarzmehl actually is, i.e., how it's milled, how it's made. I couldn't find anything definitive and though I was on a few home baker sites, with some asking this very question, I saw no answers. And the millers who do produce it (like Drax, here) don't offer much beyond a small descriptor of its quality/use in a bake:
Interesting they suggest limiting it to 10% relative to the rye flour otherwise used.
It reminds me of some malts and grains used in brewing. Black Patent malt, for instance, often used in the making of porter. It gives a beautiful black (as opposed to deep brown) quality, a touch of roastiness and mostly an acrid, what I get as "ashy" quality that oddly works, for me - helps make the porter drinkable (it was after all the drink of choice for working people as England industrialized) and drier against the sugary crystal malts almost always used.
Added: Just happened to look over some of my brewing recipes. My "Ironbridge Robust Porter" only contains 3% black patent malt. My "Cloakstone" Porter has no black patent. Has an interesting malt, a German product called "carafa" which is de-husked, roasted malt. The color without the tannic acridness. (Another has 3% "de-bittered black," really the same idea as carafa). My "Baltic Black Ale," really the strong porters commissioned by Queen Victoria and made from the Baltics to Russia for British consumption) again has no black malt though it again has 6.5% carafa (and 4.8% rye malt).
Sorry for the side journey into brewing. I no longer drink beer, but am insanely in love making it and miss that; posted for one in case someone else is into brewing and, secondly, interesting to me I see parallels with Schwarzroggen and perhaps the same purposes as Black Patent. Not much in the way of "breadiness," but gives these color, higher water retention, and length in storage?
Oh my god, Mini. I am so stricken with jealousy!
it is one hour 37 minutes away by car and they just got dumped with a meter of snow. Diesel price is €1.50 per litre. Maybe by mail but the interesting part would be to watch them mill the flour. This dark dark flour is made from the outer layers of the grain. Interesting.
Stan might want to put this spot on his European bread tour as soon as they become available again.
Looks good. The rye + walnut combination sounds like a winner, and I really like the rugby shape. Thanks for pulling this CB together.
This recipe kept on evolving. Had some walnuts so wanted to use them. Needed to use up some milk so thought why not make a buttermilk substitute with ACV and so on.
I'm about to try a bit even though it was only baked 3-4 hours ago. I know we shouldn't cut into rye till the next day but a little taste can't do any harm.
And apparently neither can you. Man after my own heart, lol. Looking forward to it!
tip: After cutting off a tiny slice, tip the loaf on end, cut side down, either on the cutting board or a plate while it continues to cool. This should help prevent escaping moisture and rapid drying out of the exposed crumb. You might have to cut a second slice just to stabilize a tall loaf ....if it looks like it might fall over. :)
There will be some condensation on the plate or board
When should I wrap it up in a tea towel and put it in a plastic bag? Should I put it in right after it comes out of the oven or wait until it cools? I haven't baked rye bread for so long that I've forgotten what to do with it!
Place the hot loaf on a rack to cool, takes about 4 hours in a 24°C kitchen. Higher room temps take longer, cooler less. Wrapping in a tea towel takes longer but may holld in more moisture, it will certainly moisturize the towel to some degree. When I can watch it, I put it on a rack over a large pan or bowl, a bowl much bigger than the loaf. Then throw a half folded towel loosely over the loaf. Cool.
When cool, I wrap high rye "bricks" tightly in plastic wrap or store in a container or bag with little air between the loaf and the container. Should there be any condensation under the wrap or on the container, return to rack to cool longer. Let plastic wrap dry. Heavy full grain loaves get a few drops of good quality oil thinly spread on the surface that touches the loaf to prevent sticking. Letting such loaves air dry a few minutes before slicing gives a cleaner crust cut if needed. Let the loaf set undisturbed for at least a day before cutting.
Mixed rye and wheat loaves get a thin paper bag and bread box storage or thin paper bag inside a plastic bag or large grocery type paper bag. A lot depends on the abient humidity. With high humidity and tropical temps, I would slice and freeze after the first 24-36 hours after baking to let the moisture in the loaf even out and to prevent molding. I would freeze and bread you dont plan on eating in the 3 days following baking. Cooler climates, storing wrapped lightly in paper and placed in a bread box works best. These mixed flour loaves often are cut open on the same day after they are cooled and slightly warm. I would give any loaf upwards of 60% rye flour, at least 6 hours before cutting. The higher the rye content, the longer the crumb takes to set before slicing.
Late night bakes might need extra care to prevent too much drying of the loaf crust after loaves have cooled. It might be wise to put the loaf and rack after about an hour of room cooling into a cold oven or microwave oven and close the door to finish cooling while you sleep. Setting the rack into a sink and cover the whole sink with a towel (add a warning note) also works well.
Excellent post, fantastic info. Thanks mini.
Lol, that's what I do. Problem is I bake way too many breads for our family, even after giving some away to neighbors and friends. My board looks like a kind of motley Stonehenge.
That's the secret of Stonehenge! It was built for bakers!
It's a looker. One of the great naughty pleasures is eating warm bread, even when you know you shouldn't!
Otherwise known as South Tyrol Farmers' Bread.
Recipe link and more details can be found in my blog post here.
Bread looks fantastic, Lance. I am so interested in this area. Looking forever to reading your blog. Have you come across this book by any chance? If so, your thoughts on the book?
Thanks Paul; I have seen that book but I'm afraid my knowledge of German wouldn't do it justice. Much easier to read the Austrian, German and Russian sites with a translator (sigh).
And I already have too many bread and cookery books....
Gotcha. Well, I'm right there with you. I can muddle through but it's no great shakes. It just drives me crazy enough to actually commit to the daily slog of self-imposed torture of studying the language.
Please give me the secret, seriously. I am terminal with cookbook acquisition syndrome, though finally we're running out of squeezing every possible free space and all my brewing, cheesemaking (and technical books associated with both) have been banished to our basement. I hate it. I am comforted by looking at all my purdy books.
Here is my bake of Rugbrod [LINK], by Jennifer Lapidus, thanks to Benny's detailed notes above in this thread. Thanks to the other recent TFL Rugbrod bakers for directing my attention to this one. I used a home milled whole rye at a fine setting for the bake. I really like the flavor in this simple bread relative to my previous bakes of Vollkornbrot, and I'll be comparing these recipes to understand the differences.
An even distribution of add-ins and a lovely crumb. Rugbrod is packed with flavour and yours looks delicious. Thank you so much for your valuable contribution to this community bake.
Nice bake David, it will be interesting to see if the more complicated Borodinsky loaf which you've said you've got in progress turns out more to your taste than this one or not.
Thanks. It was a bake-by-numbers effort and an aha moment in my limited rye experience. I'm glad the simple fine rye milling worked out (well enough to meet my standards at least). The Borodinsky is a work in progress. I'm following [THIS] sprout and malting primer and notes from happycat's bake this fall [LINK].
That looks amazing David, you hit that out of the park. Tell me, as written I found the salt maybe just a bit high for my taste and I made a footnote that I would reduce the salt a bit in the future. Do you find it a bit too salty or was it fine for you? I really liked this better than the other 100% rye loaf I baked.
I think I understand, but it seems to be balanced by the depth of flavor in this one. I also don't use sweeteners often and I'm guessing this could make the 1 1/2 tsp of honey more prominent to me (especially in combination with the rye maltiness). I forgot to mention that I used coconut oil to grease the pan (so much so that it oozed on to the top of the loaf and I had to blot some off), and I think that may have contributed to a richer flavor in the slightly crispy golden crust that formed in the final uncovered bake. I forgot I was housing the rye sour in a covered pot on the stove when I preheated the oven for something, so it got a brief unintentional sauna before I realized the mistake, which may have accelerated the fermentation relative to the room temperature it calls for. This is definitely one I'll do again.
That's scrumptious. It's a bread, because of your bake and another thread (very sorry guys, can't remember) and a decent smattering of Danish (undoubtedly badass Viking blood Danish) blood in my family line well....I must make this bread. Thanks for the inspiration and your journey.
I've seen a previous comment saying that instead of docking or spraying with water one thing you can do is pour whey on top prior to going into the oven?
This was the comment "There was a baker on this site a few years ago that formed her whole wheat dough in the pan and then poured whey (left over from kefir) into the pan until it just covered the dough. When she baked it, the liquid evaporated and she had a shiny crusted,dark brown loaf with no steaming needed."
Is this a good idea? My loaf for this community bake already in bulk and this is my "phone a friend" question!
if the loaf isn't drowning in the whey. Other coatings over a loaf can include milk, cream, mayonaise, egg, water, oil. Starch or flower and water mixtures. Just be aware that some toppings and glazes may brown faster or slower than the loaf itself. Generally glazes with sugar, fats, eggs, additions of malt, brown faster. Some add a pinch of salt to the glaze. Whey contains a fair amount if not all the sugar in the milk after the curds have been removed. So watch the crust carefully. This might mean turning down the heat if the browning is excessive or covering the loaf with foil during the latter half of the bake.
The fun part is that seeds and co. will stick to a whey brushed surface. :)
Knew you'd come through with just the right advice!
Hmmmm... This is for a 90% rye loaf pan bread. Maybe pumpkin seeds. Or even soaked rye berries, which are leftover from inside this bread. Was originally thinking of no seeds on top. So many decisions!
Lithuanian Rye - Stanley Ginsberg. Just out of the oven, cooiing now.** Can't recall who recently did this or even if it was from the site, sorry guys. But Never made it before and now I'm pretty inspired to try Borodinsky again (my first was an epic fail). Will try Rus Brot's 1940 version.
** Mini, sorry, a bit fried having had only a couple hours sleep last night, but it's unclear what you'd recommend for a rye from this point (hot, right out of the oven) forward. I understand this is a very different bread (and crust) like the moonscapes above - this one had a potato starch glaze painted on the last 5 minutes of the bake - but may I ask your process from now until slicing (and beyond)? Apologies again if you've covered it, and obviously feel free to refer me to the post or posts. Thanks.
Love this bread. There is a delicious backdrop of malty sweetness that cries out for salt: cured or cold-smoked salmon. Can't wait to work on Riga and Borodinsky breads now.
> Will try Rus Brot's 1940 version
Is there a recipe for this online? I know people like his recipes. I spent some time searching and didn't find it.
Rus Brot's 1940 Borodinsky
That is looking fine, well done!
I'd just leave it to cool on a wire rack. You can wrap in a towel if you want. The starch glaze will soften the crust a little anyway, so it should be fine. It'll improve with time as usual.
Try the Borodinsky, yes!
Thanks Ilya. That means a good deal coming from you.
Look forward to the crumb shot.That's a beautiful crumb.
How long was your proof? When I made mine, I proofed for 2 hours and had 1.5× rise in my aliquot jar, but my crumb was much tighter than yours.
I made this recipe a couple of weeks ago and it is one of the most flavorful rye breads I've eaten. I hope you enjoy it.as much as I did.
Ha! It was you I got the inspiration from then. Thanks alcophile!
Wow look at that crust, well done Paul. Can’t wait to hear what you think of the flavour.
Edited after crumb posted.
Beautiful fermentation on that loaf Paul!
You inspired me to try the same recipe! Baked last night and mailed the loaf to my parents this morning.
Just a note I actually contacted Monica Drax, the owner of the Drax Mill out of Rechtmering, Bavaria, Germany. About 45 minutes east of Munich and the place looks beautiful. Brotdoc and another whose blog I can't recall both spoke very highly of her and her mill. They carry the Type 2500. If she writes back I'll share what she had to say.
Sesame raisin walnut 65rye/35spelt 100% whole-grain loaf
Details of this bake can be found in my blog post.
yet the nut meats stay light colored in contrast. Sesame creates a white crust. Striking! :)
Ok, screwed up this post. The crumb shot above is several days later in natural light. Notice the crust definition fading into the crumb. The crumb did darken a little bit. It's almost gone and getting better every day. We will be fighting over that last slice for sure.
Oh my that is incredible crumb. How did it taste?
Dangerous to leave it sitting out as we become too lazy to cook, rather have open faced sandwiches! The cake form I baked the bread in, came wih a carry case so the loaf sits in there and too easy to get to.
I didn't put the whole dose of orange peel to flour in the dough. Hubby said if I wouldn't have told him about the peel, he wouldn't have noticed it. So it's subtle and not overpowering, which means a good blend. One can also use a spice blend of mostly coriander with caraway and fennel/anis in smaller amounts.
Indeed that is Mini. "Saftig" doesn't seem to begin to cover it.
Coffe & cream color - still way lighter than mine. Different ryes, I guess.
The important thing is: you enjoyed it.
Coffe & cream color - still way lighter than mine. Different ryes, I guess.
The important thing is: you enjoyed it.
That is one special bread, nice to see it in natural light.
Your post has got me thinking about how well the boiling hot water method will work with wheat flour? Have you given it any thought, maybe with difficult wholewheat?
It would destroy a lot of gluten in the flour, so with wheat you might want to be careful about that.
I've seen a lot of old, wheat recipes with scalds.
I am not saying it's impossible, there are definitely scalded wheat recipes! But I wouldn't just pour boiling water over all of the flour. I would take a portion out and scald it thoroughly. Like we normally do for rye too.
I've been interested in trying Mini's Dark Rye & Chia loaf, since we came into possession of more chia seeds than we can otherwise use. This recipe seems to yield pretty outrageous oven spring for rye [LINK]. I'm curious how much the chia alters the final proof? My rye experience is limited and I've never baked with chia. I've made one Vollkornbrot recipe that calls for a 30% rise, and the Rugbrod (above) in this CB, which looks for a few pinholes on top. I'm curious if the chia gel traps more CO2 in a way that would suggest a different proofing strategy (a bigger rise in the final proof, for example). Do we still see pinholes?
at that posting may have com from 60g extra water added to the dough as a replacement for altus. I don't understand how water replaces altus but the additional water might be why it rose so high. Worth a try.
I attempted Mini's Dark Rye & Chia recipe at 104% hydration. Unfortunately I did not do it justice, and will have to get the hang of high hydration rye and chia. This is probably my biggest flop ever. I went with the recommendation of chestnuts and used sunflower seeds to line the pan. This was with freshly milled rye, and I swapped in 100 g of sprouted rye berries I had made early, which may have been a mistake. The toasted and crushed coriander, fennel and caraway filled the apartment with a nice smell. The aliquot jar indicated a proof of nearly 1.5x by the time I decided to bake, which seemed high, but the pH was only 4.76 and I didn't see the same pinholes I noticed in the previous straight rye Rugbrod bake. After the initial mix, I discovered the chestnuts I planned to use had dried out and I ran to the store to buy some pre-roasted chestnuts. I arrived before the aliquot jar showed any signs of life and folded the precooked chetnuts in. Perhaps that was too late. I kept a careful eye on the temperature using my oven probes and checked for a loaf temperature of 205 F and ended up baking for an additional 10 minutes. After removing the loaf from the oven I could tell it was sagging under its own weight. I did my best to remove it in one piece and wrap it to cool overnight. When I unwrapped it the loaf in the morning it fell apart in my hands. I'm really not sure how I missed the mark by so much on this one.
That’s such a shame it didn’t turn out David, it certainly looked good to that point. I wonder what went well, hard to imagine that folding in the chestnuts a bit late was the cause. I’ve never watched the pH of a 100% rye bake so have no idea what kind of pH change one would want to achieve. Hopefully Mini will comment.
Thanks Benny. I've been puzzled about this one too. Clearly others have had smashing success following the same process. No doubt the fault lies in the baker on this one, and I must be missing something. It seems woefully underbaked (I could run my finger through the inside). Maybe something went awry with the rye sour build, although it was used fairly close to peak (slightly after). I did check the internal temperature with a baking thermometer, which registered 205 F. I monitored time and oven temperature carefully. The probes were on the top of the baking stone and the Pullman pan was on an oven rack 1 inch above it. I have had concerns that there may not be enough space around my stone, and the top probe vs stone probe temperatures can vary quite a bit. I was careful about measuring weight and the mixed dough consistency felt very reasonable and quite shapeable (surprisingly so), which seems to suggest there wasn't a measuring error (at least not a significant one). I usually take photos of the scale as a record, but had 3 bakes in process so I didn't do it in this case. I removed the aluminum foil top (broke the seal) I made, and noticed steam escape, but kept it loosely on top, as the gas oven is prone to drying. Maybe the seal trapped too much steam (compared to a lid) or keeping it resting on top didn't allow enough moisture to escape? I've reviewed the high res photo of the proofed loaf and see about 3 pinholes (fewer than expected for the rise). Maybe it wasn't proofed enough, and the chia + rye combination trapped more CO2 than expected and resulted in a "false proof". For comparison, the Rugbrod I baked measured a pH of 4.3 at the time of the bake (after observing 1/2 dozen pinholes). Since this one measured 4.76, I'm leaning towards this theory. The instructions do say "No kneading ever". I'm curious if that means "no kneading [necessary] ever" or "no kneading ever [or else you will destroy the rye + chia dough]". My late stage inclusion may have introduced too much kneading, although that seems less likely. I'll have to repeat this again with a smaller test dough.
It was a bad rye weekend, as it seems I over-roasted my week long rye sprout project while attempting to make solod for the Borodinsky bake. I was waiting for the rich golden color while roasting at 325F, but the berries never developed the golden color I expected (at least not on the bran) and it seems I roasted too long. I eventually tried grinding them and they taste like burnt marshmallows. The Borodinsky bake is set back a week or so, unless I can find some solod sooner.
David, do you usually measure the pH after mix? I haven’t baked with chia but as you know with whole grains the pH after mix is higher than with white flour. I wonder if the chia affected the starting pH at all. Do you have a sense of the needed delta in pH for a rye dough to be fully fermented?
I do sometimes, but I did not in this case. I might have done so had there been less going on. I can check when I try this again, and your idea that chia may alter this significantly is a good point. I usually bake the same loaf repeatedly with a bag of the same grain, and have been using pH primarily to judge maturity of both the starter/chef/levain (there is no difference in my current maintenance of my culture) and the final proof. I also keep an aliquot jar. I haven't experimented with any more universal pH baking heuristics yet, but I am very curious about your experience. Would it make sense to look at fixed deltas in linear scale? pH derivatives? I have made some attempts to visualize pH continuously to look for patterns that might explain the outcome, but my meter doesn't have a digital interface, so it is extremely tedious. I believe yours can log continuously, right? I'll measure more next time.
I’ve been going on the premise that the degree of fermentation can be measured by the fall in pH from the time of end of mix/addition of inclusions to the end of bulk and time of baking. So for what I’ve lately been baking I watch for a fall in pH of about 1.0 and end bulk at that time. Then I aim to bake at another 0.3 drop in pH. This has worked very well for my 100% whole grain breads and I haven’t seen any under or over fermentation with this. I have done a few bakes with smaller amounts of whole grain and then this pH guidance still worked well. Now I do think if one has a very strong dough with exceptionally high gluten then one could go for a greater drop in pH since that dough would tolerate more proteolytic activity than a dough with less gluten.
My Hanna Bread and Dough meter doesn’t do continuous measurements, but it is easy to clean the dough off and relatively quick to measure.
I have definitely noticed that when I have added scalds and such that the pH can be significantly higher not surprisingly, so I always start my pH point of reference after adding those to the dough and then target the pH 1.0 drop.
I am guessing you cannot rely on the aliquot jar if it no longer has the same state as the main dough (which was changed when the chestnuts were added in). Do you need to reset that jar if you mess with the main dough? Esp with rye relying on a pretty loosely held rise?
The aliquot hadn't budged by the time I returned with the pre-roasted chestnuts. I'm assuming handling doesn't have much of a lasting impact on the dough unless growth is detectable, but I don't know that for sure. I will try again and see what I can find.
In the past, I have tried to coordinate degassing equally for the dough and the aliquot (a reset), but I didn't have confidence in my ability to do it accurately. Now I rely more on the aliquot as a repeatable indication of degree of fermentation rather than the volume of the dough, which is certainly easier. It takes a lot of manipulation to re-seat the aliquot, remove bubbles, and level it in the jar after handling it. Maybe one could knock it down in the jar without removing it?
By the way, did your solod turn a detectable reddish brown on the outer bran? I fan dried the sprouted rye a bit before roasting it open in a baking sheet. The outer bran never got any color, but the inside appears to have burned. I've never tasted solod before but I'm guessing it should be sweet and malty. Perhaps roasting while still damp or even covering it to protect it from the dry gas oven is needed to trigger an outer color change.
One of the outcomes of manipulating dough is moving yeasts and new food in the dough closer together. Presumabky it also affects the development of pentosan gelling in the dough, So just manipulating one dough and not the other might make a difference.
Yes my solod turned reddish but that was ater the fermentation and sacchirification phases
You can see the colours in the blog where I made it
The roasting phases post drying trigger Maillaird reactions and browning. My understanding is the more you roast, the more you get roast flavours vs the fermentation and rye. Same as coffee where light roasts offer more acidic flavours from a varietal and dark roasts offer more sweet and then ash
I almost always do an aliquot, it is what I'm used to, even though lately I find that judging by eye (and the poke) do it just fine.
The point of the ramble is that this weekend I had the distinct displeasure of trying to get high rye dough into a tiny jar. Just awful poking the mud down with a chopstick. Certainly wouldn't want to handle that more than I need to.
When using an aliquot jar I do not reset the aliquot jar, I allow it to continue to rise even if I manipulate the dough. Because I do this the same way with every dough there is consistency from bake to bake of the same bread. I keep in mind that the percent rise estimated by the aliquot jar is greater than the percent rise in the actual dough. So if I’m following a recipe that states divide when the dough has risen 40% that the aliquot rise will have to be greater than 40%.
to me: 100g sprouted rye berries, and baking an inch above the baking stone.
There is another case of a loaf falling apart at the end of that 104% rye posting. Would be interesting to compare both bakes in detail. Is there anything left to get a crumb shot? From the looks of the loaf, I'd be tempted to roll the insides into small balls, maybe add a little sugar or cream cheese (rum or whiskey) and finish off rolling in a tasty dark cocoa powder to coat.
Rye berries sprouted uncooked? Might have thrown a lot of enzymes to attack the matrix. ? If so,This would definitely shorten any bulk rise. Boil or roast would be my suggestion as I haven't yet thrown in fresh sprouts.
When I bake in a shiny pan, and I would classify this as a shiny pan (wait a few more years of use w/o washing it on the outside) I try to get the pan as close to the heat as I can. In my oven it means the botton rack (I've no stone) for at least the first 15 minutes and moving up later a notch or turning the oven down to 200°C. There is something to be said about starting off hot and then turning down the heat as rye bakes progress. Mybe bake on the stone would help. The sunflower seeds roasted a little on the bottom but I bet it was near the end of the bake. Would be interesting to see a crumb shot of that bottom crust and see how it "imprinted "the bake. Did you dock the loaf?
The rye sprouts (just at chit stage) were dried but uncooked. It does seem that they could be the culprit. I will skip them next time. That's a great post. I love that fact that you sourced chia fresh from the market. It is a nice example of baking with local ingredients. I haven't investigated it, but I'm curious now to look into traditional baking practices that exploit the chia gel.
I looked through the post and the one failure I spotted seemed less catastrophic. They didn't provide many details on their bake.
Unfortunately, the loaf is no longer with us. I thought about saving it for altus, but didn't want to risk bringing it into a new bake. My previous attempts to repurpose baking failures haven't been very satisfying, but your idea is a good one.
I can try baking on the stone next time. After reading this article, I will now either bake on the stone or remove it. The thermal mass seems to do less than I expected (unless baking on the stone).
I did dock the loaf. I almost forgot, and didn't have toothpicks on hand, so I used my kitchen thermometer probe.
Thanks for your input. I will try again.
Just to settle the R 2500 idea - I'm part of a German FB page run by Brotdoc and a member there pointed out to me that indeed R 2500 is basically a rye equivalent to wheat's first clear. It's in Ginsberg's book, pg. 29..."like first clear wheat flour, the leavings of milled rye after the lighter grades have been sifted out...."
Might be fun to do some bolting, even though it's imperfect, and make an ersatz "2500."
Not to beat a dead horse but I think it's pretty cool Monica Drax herself responded to my query. Nice lady, and a quality mill. Would love to visit them,
My German isn't that good so I'm afraid it's Google on this one:
That is serious selectivity!!!
wraps around the entire endosperm. That is amazing selectivity! So maybe white rye is missing much of this layer and that could explain the lighter crumb color I get with 960 rye flour. I might go find me some of this 2500 stuff to mix in for more shifting to "the dark side." Moo ha ha ha haaaa!
Oh that's interesting on the white rye, Mini. Looking forward to what comes up for you with the 2500. And just a reminder it was you who welcomed me to the "dark side" in the first place.....!
like our ryes. My son gave me a t-shirt many many years ago.
It said. Welcome to the dark side....we have cookies!
Oh, saw a nice rye in the supermarket...it had 15% fibre and only 8% protein vollkorn rye fine ground. The expiration date...Feb 2022. Crap. Only one on the shelf. Didn't bring it home as "I've been there" with expired dates. Couldn't find anything higher. Maybe a reform house trip might do it. (15 minute drive)
My second entry (third overall 100% rye bake), based on Denisa's formula. This time with coarsely ground home-milled rye, 1 tbsp of ground/toasted bread spice, some whole sesame seeds, whole sunflower seeds, whole flaxseeds, 1/2 tsp whole caraway, and 1/2 tsp whole fennel as soaked add-ins. Topped with raw pumpkin seeds.
I had some senior moments and forgot the salt and sweetener. But with some melted salted butter, the bread is wunderbar.
Rye rolls. 55% rye flour, 45% wheat flour. So cute.
I don’t think I’ve seen rye rolls before, they look great Abel.
My bad. I got the concept now - previously posted on my blog
Here's my response to the Community Bake - Rye Bread, the Franconia Crusty Boule / Frankisches Krustenbrot (Germany) from The Rye Baker by Stanley Ginsberg
I am quite pleased with this bake. I really enjoy the added bread spice called Brotgewürz however the next time I make this bread I'll increase the amount. I can see how this bread goes with savory foods and dark beers and veined cheeses.
Very good looking rye loaves Tony. I love how the crust opened up so organically.
Agree with Benny - gorgeous, man. My wife is going up to see her mom and dad on Friday - mom's Estonian and dad is, well, a morphed Estonian and both are mad for rye. I have about a dozen bookmarks in Stanley's book and this is one of them, but I've never made it. You've bumped any other plans and this one is next. Starting tomorrow, perfect for Friday morning breakfast for them.
Thanks Gadjowheaty - I would increase the bread spices a little - but then again I enjoy stronger flavors.
How about a slice of Rye Gingerbread (LINK) for dessert? Slightly bending the rules, but it is a "bread" of sorts. 100% KA medium rye with a nice clove kick, which I like (I used to chew Adams Clove Gum as a kid).
There you go, very nice!
Adams Clove - oh man, brings back memories. My dad was a pilot and the gum of choice to clear our ears in the old Cessnas was....
Oh yummy, nice gingerbread! I’ve never seen a rye gingerbread.
Thanks, Benny. The rye really compliments the spiciness of the cake. Or is it the other way around?
Kümmel-Bier Brot (Caraway Beer Bread) from The Rye Baker book. This bread is for lovers of caraway seed (sorry Benny!); it has a whopping 2% caraway seed. The bread is 50% rye and 50% first clear or high-gluten flour, barley malt syrup, and beer for half the liquid. The bread is great for sandwiches. For those not as fond of caraway as I am, it could still be a good all-around rye sandwich bread if the caraway was reduced or omitted. More details on the prep here.
James Morton's "Purely Rye Sourdough" recipe left me full of self doubt. His approach is unconventional, as he puts it, "The way I get a brilliant pure rye bread is to follow every traditional process of conventional breadmaking, but bake it just like you might a gluten-free loaf."
So the recipe has some oddities to it, some more strange than others, "you need to knead this bread"(!), long fermentation time - 6 hours bulk plus 4-6 hours proof, score(!) the top of the loaf, and "bash" out of the tin halfway through the short bake.
I used Pstros' variant for the ingredients, so half the levain was bread flour making this a 90% rye, and also used 100g of cooked rye kernels both inside the bread and as a topping. I humoured the recipe and mixed for 15 minutes with the paddle. Maybe, just maybe, the strands from the side of the bowl to the dough clinging to the paddle were just a little bit more coherent at the end of that. I didn't want to try shaping fizzy mud, so gave it a much shorter bulk of 2 hours, but then left it in the pan quite a long time as I was away. Think it went too far for what I would have liked - aliquot at 200% - 9 hours from adding levain (3X increase) and the top was pinholed. Instead of scoring I brushed on whey and used that to attach the sunflower seeds and cooked rye (thanks Mini!).
And because I'm an idiot who follows instructions, and my pan wasn't non-stick, I ended up having to try twice - the "bash the bread out after 20 minutes" was a disaster, even though the pan was oiled it stuck at the base as that wasn't properly cooked 20 min in, and my first loaf ended up as a collection of chunks. So, I took the hit (and froze some for altus) and actually tried all over again the next day, this time with butter to grease a new non stick pan and I baked on top of the baking steel for 25 minutes before seeing if it would come gently out of the pan, which it did. I made sure this was properly baked, so this one had a total of 60 minutes at 200°C (392°F) of which 20 minutes had foil tenting. Slight darkening on top, but that's okay with me.
Left it all properly wrapped and only sliced and tasted at 36 hours - turned out to taste nicer than I thought it would. Complicated flavours, a slight tang but not an over-powering sourness, liked the cooked rye kernels, and no gumminess to the crumb. Going to enjoy eating the rest, which leaves me confused what to think of this recipe!
Sounds like you’re happy you had a second go at this recipe Jon. In the end you baked up a nice looking loaf despite the unusual processes.
Here is my second submission: my second attempt at Hamelman’s Horst Bandel Black Pumpernickel. I’m reasonably happy with this one, although there’s room for improvement.
When perusing old threads on this bread, I noticed a wide range of baking techniques. In an attempt to achieve a dark color, I went for a long bake: 1 hour at 350, 2.5-3 hours at 275, 9-10 hours at 220. My oven does not retain heat well, so turning it off and leaving it as Hamelman recommends would not have accomplished much. Despite the long bake, the crust was not hard or tough at all.
Note: after wrapping my Pullman pan in a couple layers of foil, I put the baking stone on top of it for the duration of the bake. Maybe that’s a bad idea, but the stone and pan seem fine, and the bread stayed moist.
60% rye/40% spelt
2 stage ferment with a stale bread scald
This is a really interesting formula. The dough was super tangy (not surprising given that my schedule extended the preferment to 18 hours) but the final loaf was surprisingly mild, with the spelt nutty sweetness overcoming the spicy rye. It'll make a great feast with the squash soup I made last night.
That does look interesting (and tasty!). I'll have to add this one to my list.
Did you use the bolted spelt flour for the final dough? I only have whole spelt flour, but I suppose it's a small quantity and shouldn't make much difference.
How do you interpret the baking instructions? I'm always a bit confused by the German baking instructions. Is steam applied during the entire bake? How long is the oven maintained at the higher temperature?
I used whole rye and whole spelt -- because that's what I have. This probably made the dough a little more stiff.
I bootlegged the temperatures and steam. Going against my pyromaniac instincts, I rejected 280C/535F as the starting temperature. Since my whole grain dough was less slack, I figured I didn't need to set it aflame in the oven.
I started at 250C/485F for 20 minutes -- with steam for the first 15. Then I lowered it to 232C/450F for 30 minutes. And I finished up at 210C/410F for ten minutes.
One other variation: I don't know why, but I did the 2-stage preferment without salt (no doubt, this upped the sourness substantially.) And the total salt I added to the final dough -- mixed in with the hot water and the cooled scald -- was 7 grams. This was just personal preference: I find most bread formulas are too salty.
I was blown away that, though the raw dough was incredibly acidic, the final bread was quite mellow. With each bite, I feel like I'm in the mountains.
Delicious bread and lovely hands off procedure
Very even crumb and unique technique. Not too airy but still looks like a soft crumb. Making this over a few days would sure bring out some wonderful flavours. Very nice indeed and welcome to the Community Bake.
It's a very nice, simple tasting everyday rye bread. It has a pronounced acidity with some lemony notes to it 😋
Do tell more!
Yes, at least that's how my palate perceives that. Maybe because of that dried starter on the sides of my bread bowl? I've been using this bowl for 3 years now, maybe some nice yeast and lactic bacteria sit there? You can read about the procedure in my blog post. It's based on traditional recipe from Belarus
Repeated the previous bake with small modifications.
Stupidly, when mixing the preferment, I realized I only had half the amount of starter necessary for the recipe, so I just used what I had and added extra flour and water to get the total amount. The starter was more active than the first time (spent less time in the fridge) and I gave it an extra hour compared to last time, so the resulting preferment seemed very similar in the end.
I toasted 75 g of sunflower seeds and added them to the main dough, together with 4 g of bread spice (a little on the low side, I didn't want to overpower the flavour of the bread itself). I also thought the seeds would soak up a bit of water, so added extra 25 g water, but it actually was a mistake: the dough was way more soft than the first time, and although I mixed in a little more flour after the 30 min "bulk" ferment, it was still too liquidy. In addition (and probably due to that reason) it stuck a little during proofing, and removing the towel damaged the surface in a few spots, which then corresponded to the largest cracks on the loaf - which is also quite flat to due overhydration.
This time I didn't sprinkle the bread with water before taking it out, but I sprinked water on the walls of the oven. I don't know whether it made any difference for the hardness of the crust, but it did preserve the nice white-black contrast on the surface. Sliced it after two days.
It's really tasty, with extra nuttiness from the seeds (could have used more!), and a little something from the spices too. Overall the flavour is very similar to the previous one, perhaps a little more moist (due to higher hydration). Very nice hearty bread, despite a somewhat low profile.
Really brings out flavour and the oil. Very nice crumb and crust, Ilya. Looks delicious.
Thank you Abe - indeed, toasted sunflower seeds are delicious, and I think work very well with rye bread.
Inspired by Ilya and cfraenkel's bakes, I also had a try at the Plötzblog recipe with "versäuertem Schrot" (https://www.ploetzblog.de/2020/09/12/roggenbrot-mit-versaeuertem-schrot/).
Everything was progressing nicely, until mixing the final dough. I had left a measuring cup of boiled water to cool to 70C, but then forgot that I hadn't weighed it out precisely, and just poured the whole thing into the bowl. I'd estimate I boosted the hydration by around 20% - on a recipe with a starting point of 85%! To salvage things I proofed and baked in a loaf pan, reducing the proof time by 30 minutes and taking it out of the pan a bit before the end of the bake to crisp the crust.
In the end it turned out surprisingly good, with a very moist and relatively open crumb thanks to all the extra water, contrasting nicely with a crisp but not at all tough crust. There are a couple small voids in the very center of the loaf so I think it was really on the brink of internal collapse during bake ... but managed to just hold together.
Nice! That looks really good. Maybe I should have baked my recent also somewhat overhydrated loaf in a pan! But high hydration rye in a pan makes for a very pleasant crumb, a moist and relatively open (but obviously less crust, which has lots of flavour! - tradeoff).
How do you like the taste?
Looks perfect to me. Rose well, very uniform and nice looking crumb structure. Cuts nicely. Perfection.
Bon Appetit, Mike.
That looks like it's going to be delicious. I'd be really happy to bake that, beautiful.
Nice save! I think I like the look of that even better than the original, but I'm partial to panned breads.
If you were to repeat it, would you increase the hydration to only 95–100%? Thanks.
I think you upgraded the recipe! Fantastic save!
Ilya, the taste is very good - though there are a few "schrot" kernels that remained perhaps a little too crunchy.
Alcophile, I would up the hydration 10% max and see how it goes. Deeper into the loaf were a few more defects (slight "flying roof" in a couple spots) so again I think this was really pushed to the brink! (I also like the look of Pullman pans for rye breads - since the oven spring is limited, the taller format gives a nice proportion).
Sorry, I have been quiet for a while. That doesn't mean I haven't been following all your wonderful bakes. This Community Bake has taken me by surprise and has grown so much in this past week it's very difficult to comment on every bake. I have however followed every single one. Such wonderful recipes and ideas, more then I could have dreamed of, in just over a week too. Welcome back to regular contributors to the Community Bake and lovely to see some new 'faces' too.
On my way home from work I decided to pop into my local Polish store and buy some more wholegrain rye flour. Had to spend a certain amount on my card and now I have more then I know what to do with. I suppose I could have bought something else but was in a hurry and to make up for the minimum spend just grabbed another packet off the shelf. Never mind... with all the bakes here i won't be running out of ideas.
Thank you, Abe, for organizing the CB.
I'm also thrilled to see so many different recipes that showcase rye. It will take me months to try them all!
I'm glad everyone is enjoying themselves. Your rye gingerbread looks so inviting! Reminds me of Icelandic Rye. While it doesn't have any ginger in it it's certainly leaning towards a rye cake with caramel notes.
Thank you for creating the CB, it's a pleasure to have you as the host, and hope you don't feel any pressure to comment one very bake. You are a busy person, and I think we all know you read through everything even if you don't comment :)
Enjoy the Polish flour, looking forward to seeing your bakes!
I did plan on trying to comment on all the bakes but i'm so happy I can't because the CM is so popular. That's what I like to see. Of course I pop in everyday and marvel at all the bakes.
Not sure what to make next. I'm spoiled for choice.
... so little time.
Thanks Abe, for coordinating & advising & marveling.
For your bake and recipe, Rob.
Something i've saved to try sometime.
Interesting that the bag of your Polish flour has a 'thermomix' logo on it - are you meant to do anything with a home appliance?
Also, out of curiosity did that shop also stock light/medium rye flour?
It is a recipe for thermomix which I think is a home appliance which can do many things one of which is need dough (I would think). Here is the recipe:
Are you up for some google translate?
Everything is in Polish in that store but what I can make out is they sell wholemeal and white rye.
Prepare in Thermomix Wholemeal rye bread Method of preparation: Pour 250 g of buttermilk and 150 g of water into Thermomix, add 40 g of fresh yeast and a teaspoon of sugar, heat for 1 min / 37 ° C / Speed 2. Add 500 g of Melvit wholemeal rye flour, 1.5 teaspoons of salt, a tablespoon of oil, knead the dough with a spatula, time 2 minutes /. Put the dough into another vessel, leave it to rise for about 40 minutes, then put it into a greased baking tin (about 24x12x7 cm). Bake in a preheated oven at 200 ° C for 50-60 minutes. After removing from the oven, leave the bread in the form for about 10 minutes.
*Google Translate from photo
* "turn 2" was also translated as "speed 2"
Thank you, David. That's nifty. Google can translate from a photo!?
Now we have another recipe. More the merrier.
P.s. if anyone wishes to follow this recipe that would be 1.5 teaspoons of salt.
Yes, google translate app on the phone (or the translate function of google lens) can translate from a photo - or even from the camera in real time!
And try it out for myself. Thank you Ilya.
Sorry guys, nothing new to show. I'm with Abe. I wish we had a "madly blown away" emoticon as I'd be painting this thread with them. Amazed.
So this isn't on a current bake. My wife is driving up to see her parents, will be there for dinner Friday. Two breads - both from Lutz - Black Hamster and Rauriser Vollkornbrot. My in laws are in their 80's so I really have to watch the petrified lava effect on the Rauriser, but with Mini's and others' help, I think I have a handle on it. So my question is, when would you think the optimal "aging" would be for these two breads? Is there a consensus on full-rye recipes in general? I know it's subjective but, um, truth be told...
I can't stand not baking daily rye. Serious. Right now it's growing out our ears, though, and this bread for my FIL/MIL is a perfect reason to bake. Given Friday dinner first breaking of the breads, would you bake tomorrow, or Thursday?
Black Hamster Wholemeal Bread. Never heard of that before. Looks like a relative of the Danish Rye. Generally I find 2-3 days and it's really cutting nicely with the rye itself catching up with the flavours of the add-ins.
I agree, I think 2 days is optimal, after that I don't notice much change in flavour or crumb structure.
Looks superb - presumably if it is a hamster bread you must stuff your cheeks with it.
My entry into the Rye CB. Details are in my blog.
Perfect! The mash must be bringing out the reddish color?
Yes, I think so. Maybe more from the barley than the rye, but not sure on that. I have a picture of the finished mash in my blog that shows its color, and the reddish hues are definitely there. Could be the soft white lights in my kitchen are contributing to it too, but it does have a reddish color even in daylight. The dark color was just the surface of the mash. I should have grabbed a picture of what was underneath. It more closely resembled the final crumb.
I've just added to the main body of the CM a nice Yeasted Polish Rye bread recipe. I'll include it here too.
This is from a nice YouTube channel called The Bread Kitchen. Unfortunately she doesn't post videos anymore but she has plenty of other recipes too. This is for anyone who doesn't have a sourdough starter. Indeed, it's also for those who do, whether you would like a yeasted recipe or wish to convert to sourdough.