The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Community Bake - Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Community Bake - Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain

This Community Bake will feature Jeffry Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain. The formula and instructions are taken from his very popular book, "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes". Many bakers consider this bread a favorite of theirs and I am in that group. The portion of whole grain along with the seeds makes this bread stand out among the best. The book can be Seen HERE.

For those not familiar with our Community Bakes see THIS LINK. The idea of a Community Bake is for those interested in baking and learning to bake with us and post the results. This way we can all learn together. This is not a bread baking competition, everyone wins!

I chose to post the bake today in order to give everyone time to gather the ingredients since there are 4 grains and/or seed add ins. It is not necessary to go out of your way to get the specified seeds or grains. I substitute all of the time and the bread is always great. Hopefully the bake will get into full swing by next weekend, but feel free to start right away.

Below is the spreadsheet that I work from. It will make 2 nice sized loaves. For a single loaf divide all ingredients in half. If you would like the spreadsheet and the accompanying files you can download them HERE. NOTE to those who download the files. Be sure you read the file, "0000_Dough_Calculator_Initial_Instructions.txt" in order to get started. Don't let the number of files intimidate you. I included the original template and supporting files in case you or anyone else would like to use it for other breads. Give me a shout if you need help with it.

I've included an additional image of the spreadsheet for those that want to bake a smaller batch. The formula is for 1000 grams, but you could easily divide each ingredient by 2 in order to make a 500 gram loaf.

Here are the instructions from Hamelman's book. If you don't already own the book, I suggest you give it some consideration.

Five-Grain Levain
by Jeffrey Hamelman
Resource --- Bread: A Baker’s Book of Techniques and Recipes    Pages 182 - 183

1.    Liquid Levain   --- Make the final build 12 to 16 hours before the final mix and let stand in a covered container at about 70°F. Mix Levain and Soaker at the same time.

2.    Soaker   --- Pour the boiling water over the grain blend and salt, mix thoroughly, and cover with plastic to prevent evaporation. Make the soaker at the same time as the final build of the levain and let stand at room temperature. If grains that don't require a hot soaker are used (such as rye chops in lieu of the cracked rye listed here), a cold soaker will absorb less water, and therefore it's likely that slightly less water will be needed in the final dough.

3.    Mixing   --- Add all ingredients to the mixing bowl. In a spiral mixer, mix on first speed for 3 minutes, adjusting the hydration as necessary. Mix on second speed for 3 to 3 1/2 minutes. The dough should have a moderate gluten development. Desire dough temperature 76°F.

4.    Bulk Fermentation   --- 1 to 1 1/2 hours (if yeast (.008%) is used). Otherwise see Step 7 for clarification.

5.    Folding   --- the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold

6.    Dividing and Shaping   --- Divide the dough into 1.5 pound pieces; shape round or oblong. Large loaves of several pounds are also a beautiful sight. And good rolls can be made from this dough. NOTE – I like to make 3 pound boules and place them into the Dutch Ovens and then refrigerate. After they are shaped I place the ball upside down on a water soaked towel and then put the wet side on a towel that is floured and filled with pumpkin seeds. This gives the bread an excellent flavor and also makes it more attractive.

7.    Final Fermentation   --- The dough can be retarded for several hours or overnight, in which case the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours At 76°F. 

 

8.    Baking   --- With normal steam, 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes. There is a great deal of water retention in this bread, so be sure to bake it thoroughly.

Danny

 

Abe's picture
Abe

Thanks Dan. A wonderful recipe and looking forward to seeing everyones take on it. I'm certainly in. 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I just came looking for this. And thank you for the original instructions. It seems everyone has their own spin on those instructions. 

Question though: Are we expected to follow the instructions or can we use our own method?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Bake as you please. I'm sure we can all benefit from helpful variations. I bake this bread all of the time. At times I've gotten somewhat sacrilegious. I often don't take time to toast the seeds and have omitted the soaker entirely with good results. For my initial bake, I plan to follow the method precisely. I've veered off through the years and want to go back to the basics.

I'm really looking forward to what you come up with Danni...

Danny, the other one :-)

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

One thing for sure is that I need to scale it up to 1100 g of flour so I get 3 loaves out of it. I will probably add some yogurt and I am thinking maybe some chia or black sesame seeds as well. 

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

the second time I made this I let the flours and the levain have their own party  for several hours before I introduced the soaker. It was much better than the first time. and of course I am going to make it again.

hreik's picture
hreik

Without the yeast tho.  i did an iteration of this 3 years ago. Only it lacked the oats, which I am anxious to try using in bread.  That recipe was based on a very similar Hamelman recipe on pages 186-7 called "Sourdough seed bread".  That one has sesame seeds and rye flour but no whole wheat or cracked rye... which I added anyhow b/c I love it (cracked rye)..  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49481/four-grain-three-flour-bread

I'll just make this one w/o yeast.... an option he gives.  Thanks

hester

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yea, Hester. I left the small amount of yeast out. The formula is more intricate than most and I wanted to try to simplify. If you want to use yeast that is fine. No rules here ;-)

Oh! I find the bread taste better without the yeast, but that is a personal preference. 

Look forward to seeing your bake...

Danny

hreik's picture
hreik

use yeast.  I totally agree w you.  I also never use yeast unless i have to .

hester

hreik's picture
hreik

Danny, On page 184 Hamelman says: FINAL FERMENTATION: "the dough can be retarded for several hours or overnight, in which case the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold and the yeast should be left out of the mix".

Hester

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

procedure for bulk and proofing. 2 hours is way too short in my 70-73F kitchen. 

Another question: What is everybody using for oats? Oat Groats? Steel cut oats? Old fashioned oats? What? 

Abe's picture
Abe

Rolled oats but might do rolled barley as that's what I have in stock. 

hreik's picture
hreik

my kitchen is 66-68 F so mine will be much longer, depending on what I calculate the levain %is is... haven't done that yet.

I will use rolled and also b/c like Abe, that's what i've got around.  lol

hester

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

When I made this the last time with Bulgur, I added almost 100 g more water to the total dough. Is there that much of a difference between the water absorption of cracked rye and Bulgur? Or do most of you find that Hamelman is very conservative in his hydration? 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

where I was happily hermitting away for a few months, mostly minding my own biznez.

Baked Jan. 11 for a weekend trip as gifts for two sets of friends.

Yeah, I know I'm cheating as I already baked this one, albeit recently, but it is fairly new to my repertoire, merely the third bake for me of this tasty bread.  Call me a cheater if you wish.  I'll shed a tear or two and then probably get over it!

The grains were cracked bulgur, steel-cut oats, flaxseeds and sunflower seeds.

750x2.  The denseness of this bread works against baguette style scoring. 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

You owe us one since you cheated! 😂

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Now what kind of a drip would I be to give breads away to others with them already sliced open?  While it isn't exactly like I drive by their homes tossing the bread on their doorstep alla the paper boy, I also don't sit on my expectant hands waiting for them to unsheathe the beasts from their plain brown wrappers and then skin them in front of me either!

We met both sets of friends at restaurants, and so there was the ol' surreptitious handoff on the way out.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I really like to inspect the crumb for the breads I bake, even those that are given away. This is what I do and the neighbors tell me they really like it this way. I slice half the loaf and then bag it together with the remaining intact loaf. I am fortunate to own a meat slicer, but I have also carefully sliced it by hand. It makes a nice presentation and the neighbors can reach in and grab a slice.

Dan

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

I give away sliced loaves of bread and frequently there is one slice MISSING. Nobody ever complains.

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

if they remember, to take a crumb shot. Most people are tickled pink to do so, while they think I've gone over the deep end 😊

Gorgeous loaves, as ever.

Carole 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have baked this bread many times but not for quite a while. You may have stimulated me to revisit it. I count myself as one of its fans.

The very first time I made it, I used instant yeast and did not cold retard the loaves. The bread was good but not anything extraordinary. The next time, I left out the yeast and retarded it overnight. It was amazing! Hardly the same bread. 

Do not neglect to leave out the yeast and do cold retard the loaves. 

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Immediately after saving the above message, I went to my pantry and found I had all the necessary ingredients for this bread. Well, most were actually in the freezer. For previous bakes, I have always subbed bulgur for the cracked rye with good results. This time, I am actually going to use cracked rye.

I'm tickled that Jeffrey Hamelman stopped by (See below.) I hope he checks back as this "community bake" starts showing results.

David

Jeffrey Hamelman's picture
Jeffrey Hamelman

Hi Fellow Bakers and Bakerinas,

What fun to read all the comments on this thread. I confess I've not visited the FL site in some years, but I think that may now change. Some thoughts: of course yeast is optional here, as it is with many/most breads. I always start with the premise of evaluating what is coming out of the oven. This might seem odd--starting at the end of the process--but it's not. I eat the bread and ask myself "Is this bread just what I would like it to be?" If yes, great, onward. If not, then I ask myself how I might change the process to get it the way I want it--no yeast, different grains, different shapes for the loaves (what a difference between round and oval, right?), overnight retarding or not, different flour blends--you get the picture. Reading the comments, it's so cool to see bakers talking about yogurt, bulgur, oat groats or steel cut oats (better a hot soaker with those), chia seeds, black sesame seeds. One reason North America excels in bread baking is because our lack of a long cultural bread history frees us up to experiment in so many directions, a luxury most European countries don't share. Please remember this--anything I've written about bread is malleable. You may choose to try it the way I've written it (or not). But one of the greatest joys of baking is personalizing how we do things. Sometimes my efforts don't work out, but I do not label them as failures. After all, falling belongs to the bravery of running.

Yours in good bread,

Jeffrey

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

How nice to see you again on TFL! I do hope you follow your intention to visit often. 

Over the years, I have enjoyed this site the most when we have had a mix of new bakers, serious home bakers, small production and large production professional bakers. We have consistently maintained an international participation. This geographic and experiential diversity enriches this community greatly.

So, welcome back!

David

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

How exciting to have so many experienced bakers join the bake so early in the game. And on top of it all Jeffrey Hamelman joins in...

I sincerely hope that many new bakers and novices participate also. This is a learning project for all. I encourage everyone to document their bakes and include images when possible. Post your good, bad, and ugly loaves. I know that I will. I have learned more from my failures than my successes.

Danny

Hey Jeffrey, it would be a gigantic treat to have you bake a loaf and document your process for the gang. For me, it would be better than the Super Bowl. Keep in mind though, I am from New Orleans :-(

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

I doubt you remember me considering how many students have the privilege of learning from you but I had a week of classes with you at The French Pastry School back in 2012!  Since you popped on here I thought it was worth noting how much of a pleasure it was to have the chance to learn from you.  I also had the chance to catch up with Didier Rosada a few months ago so this is just a bonus to see you on here.  I already have some bread resting awaiting final shaping but I'll have to jump on the 5-grain as I haven't made it in some time. 

Hope all is well,

Lyndon

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Jeffrey,

You are my main bread baking inspiration.  I recommend Bread several times a week to newbies on various forums.  I bake almost weekly and make your recipes most of the time, incorporating what I've learned here, other forums, and other books.  I have two all SD whole wheat Multigrain loaves retarding to bake off when I get home from work tonight.  The whole grains are comprised of home milled red and white wheat, emmer, kamut, spelt, and rye, which I sifted to uses the bran to make the levain (a trick learned here).  The soaker was 4 rolled grains, toasted sesame, ground brown flax, and my non-authentic home made red rye malt.  It's not uncommon for me to retard these loaves for about 30 hours.

I'd love to here what breads you are particularly interested in these days, and what new techniques you have incorporated since the publishing of Bread.

Phil

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

I agree with Phil on this. It is a great book . Hope your bees are healthy.

Doris

TomK's picture
TomK

I’ll be shopping in the bulk aisle this week to prepare. 

Very exciting (and a bit intimidating) to have Mr. Hamelman watching!

 

Tom

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

But this can’t be worse than when I invited a Chef to Xmas dinner (he was married to a friend of the family)! One that knew his stuff! I didn’t sleep a wink the night prior. I must not have done a bad job of the 8 course French meal because he seriously offered me a job after dessert! I was flabbergasted and flattered, but I told him I think I better stick to teaching! 

That being said, my jaw did hit the floor when I was reading my email and realized who was posting!

Welcome back, Jeffrey! It is lovely to have you here checking out what a bunch of us are doing to your recipes! 😉

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Love this bread and never use yeast in it.  

Absolutely awesome to see you post Jeffrey, glad you are joining us for this.  I am in New Zealand so my flours are different from the US ones but this formula still works a treat.  Usually use the original grain mix as well.  

As you said Danny - we are on a roll and Alfanso has already go a head start lol....

Happy community bake everyone

Leslie

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Thanks, Dan, for organizing what sounds like another great community bake.

Would it be cheating if I used a multi-grain flake mix instead of rolled oats?

I know I can do the math myself,, but since you offer to post a working spreadsheet, may I ask you for a link to it, please? The full recipe is too much and a half recipe too small :-P

How's the renovation going?

All the best,

Carole

hreik's picture
hreik

But of course you use what you have and want, etc.  Don't worry about it. 

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

It'll only be sort of cheating: I buy a toastrd multi-grain mix, of course the prime ingredient is oats... 

Looking forward to this, trying to figure out when  ☺

Carole 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hi Carole, substitutions are fine. I do it all the time. 

Check out the initial post on this topic for the link to download the spreadsheet and accompanying files. Be sure you read the file, "0000_Dough_Calculator_Initial_Instructions.txt" in order to get started. Don't let the number of files intimidate you. I included the original template and supporting files in case you or anyone else would like to use it for other breads. Give me a shout if you need help with it.

Renovations are going well, but it will be months before completion.

Take Care...

Danny 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Will downland and shout if necessary.

Happy renovation,  and thanks again for organising his event.

Carole 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Great idea.  Here's the one I posted here a while back.  I'll try again this weekend if possible.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49909/hamelman-5-grain-levain

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I soaked the soaker and fed the liquid levain last night. The only deviation from the recipe was that the "active levain" I used had been previously fed with a mix of 70% AP, 20% WW and 10% whole rye flour at 100% hydration.

This morning, I mixed the final dough in a Bosch Universal Plus mixer - 3 minutes on first speed and 8 minutes on second speed. The whole wheat flour I used (freshly milled Sirvinta) is exceptionally thirsty, so I increased the water by about 10g. I bulk fermented at 80ºF in a Brød & Taylor proofing box for 3 hours with folds at 50 and 100 minutes.

As usual, I used the "Metric" column of Hamelman's formula with quantities divided by 10. This makes over 5 lbs of dough. I divided it into 3 pieces of equal weight, pre-shaped by letter folds and rested the dough seam-side up, covered, for 10-15 minutes. Then I shaped one boule and two bâtards and placed them seam-side up in floured, linen-lined brotformen. Those went into plastic bakery bags, clipped shut and rested at room temperature for an hour. Then, they were placed in a 40ºF refrigerator to be baked tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are a few photos:

Loaves immediately after shaping

Boule, after 1 hour proofing at room temperature.

Bâtard, after 1 hour proofing at room temperature.

Looking forward to the bake (and cooling and tasting). I am eager to see if I can discern any difference using rye chops rather than bulgur in the soaker.

David

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

A 'now' kid! Dough looks great, will watch this space! 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I love seeing the process.  Interesting approach with the quantity.

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

This recipe is also in Jeffrey Hamelmans book : bread on pg 182 >

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Is it my boyish good looks, or are they attracted to something else? I wonder...

My first bake is in. This bread has never once failed to taste outstanding. And I know I’ve baked over a 100 loaves. My struggle has been to produce a more open (not giant holes) crumb. My dough always turns out sticky and somewhat wet with little gluten development. I hope to learn to improve this during the Community Bake.

I used oats, flaxseeds, sunflower seeds, and poppy seeds for this one. The hydration was unchanged.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Dan and it reminds me of bread that I grew up with in Germany...I love to try flax seeds but have to find a good supplier yet..Thank you for organising this!!!!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Danny, that is sumptuous! How did you get that crust color? And that crumb is just screaming for honey! This is such a rich-looking loaf.

Keep on baking! 

Carole 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I baked this hot. Most of the time @ 500F. And reduced to 465 near the end. OH! This was baked in a clay cloche. It was removed from the cloche near the end.

Danny

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Did you blitz the sunflower, flax and oats? were they toasted?

you have us off to a great start

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It is ironic that you ask about those 3 ingredients. I used a mortle & pestle to breakdown all 3 of those items. It is my understanding tha flaxseeds should be crushed for digestion. I also chose to crush the sunflower and oats, thinking that it might make for a stronger dough ( gluten network). Not sure if that worked or not.

I did toast them, but I’m not sure I can tell the difference between toasted and not.

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I meant did you grind the seeds in a coffee grinder because most mills don’t like the oily flax seed? that is a lot more work to do that 😊

Leslie

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

of the crumb! It must taste incredible!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and never made this bread but with the amazing and inspiring fellow bakers and bakerinas the best reason to try! 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

These were baked on a stone. At 460ºF for 15 minutes with steam. Then at 440ºF convection bake for 25 minutes.

And here is a photo of the crumb. It's by far the nicest crumb I have ever gotten with this bread. I think it's due to the bit of extra water and a bit of extra gluten development.

David

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Awsome oven spring!!!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Enjoy them!

Carole 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Do you grind any of your grains at all? I have found toasting the seeds add to overall flavour and aroma so plan to do that. I grind the flax but that is all.

look forward to crumb!

Leslie

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I did grind the whole wheat flour. 

I'm a bit wary of grinding the flax seeds in my Mockmill. I'm afraid the oil would gum it up. I should check on this with the Mockmill gurus.

I did not toast the seeds this time. I have done so with other seeded breads with good results. I do always toast nuts.

David

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Nice bake.  I grind flax and other seeds for baking in a spice grinder.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I do have a whirly blade type coffee grinder. (I don't use it for coffee!) I I would have to grind this quantity of flax seeds in batches, I suppose.

Thanks for the suggestion.

David

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I will mill wholewheat myself too, but the flax will be in my coffee grinder/spice mill.  Now I just have to hope my bake in the weekend works ok.

Thanks David

Leslie

PS _ wow, have just seen your crumb - totally awesome!  something to aim for.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have struggled through the years to get a more open crumb. I am not baking bricks or gummy crumb, but I would like to lighten up the crumb a bite more. Any help or ideas appreciated.

How would you describe the gluten development after mixing? How would you describe the windowpane?

I am under the assumption that the gluten network is greatly reduced because of the high percentage of seeds. What are your thoughts.

Super nice bread...

Danny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Crumb structure reflects multiple variables. You are correct, of course, that having solids like coarse bran, rye chops, seeds and nuts, cuts gluten strands and works against an open crumb. But, besides that ...

Most folks will recommend increased hydration first of all when striving for an open crumb. All else being equal, that will help, but there are other variables just as important. Maybe more important. And missing the other factors, you can have a dense, gummy closed crumb even with very high hydration. And, if you do everything else "right," you can achieve a very open crumb at relatively low hydration. If interested, take a look at these baguettes made with a 65% hydration dough: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16573/curmudgeon-proth5-baguettes

Good gluten development is essential, but so is shaping. The amount of de-gassing you do during pre-shaping and shaping can make a big difference. You want to continue developing dough strength and form a tight gluten sheath for your loaves without deflating the dough. Optimal fermentation is necessary to generate the CO2 to inflate the gluten alveoli. Optimal proofing is important as well. So is how you bake your loaves. Everything matters!

So, gluten development: Hamelman prescribes "moderate" gluten development after mixing. My dough had a bit less than that. I could have gotten an early window pane, if I'd tried. In the past few years, I have become a "believer" in trusting time and folds to do most of the work in gluten development, rather than initial mixing. So, not having a whole lot of dough strength at the end of the mix, I did two stretch and folds, rather than the one that Hamelman prescribes.

I hope that helps some.

If you have an opportunity to take a class from some one like Jeffrey Hamelman (or at the San Francisco Baking Institute where I took a couple week-long workshops), you will learn more than you could imagine. The best learning is from direct observations of dough handling by a master baker. Next best is having a gifted teacher look over your shoulder and help you fine tune your skills. The third best is from "critical practice," but the process that Jeffrey describes in this topic of assessing your product and knowing exactly what you need to change to make it just the way it "should" be, does require in-depth knowledge of the roles of ingredients and procedures. You can get a lot of that from Jeffrey's book, from Michel Suas' "Advanced Bread and Pastry" and from a few other books written for wannabe professional bakers. But a class that includes both didactic and hands-on methods will accelerate the learning process amazingly.

Hope that is not TMI, but you did ask. ;-) 

Happy baking!

David

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

So well put, David. I’ve been wanting to get Advanced Bread and Pastry, but haven’t located a used copy yet. The pastry at his co-owned bakery B Patisserie is, I can’t believe I’m saying this, even better than Tartine’s. If you haven’t been, you must go. Tartine’s bread is still far superior, though. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

David, I just bought Saus’s book. I’ve seen it referenced many times before and your recommendation sealed the deal.

Please take a look at this short video showing the Five-Grain Levain being mixed. It may give you a clue or two. https://youtu.be/5QiKWG8DhsY

Btw - I welcome any and all valuable input from yourself and others. I consider myself a life time, devoted student.

Next time I mix this formula, I’ll try to get Patsy to photograph a windowpane of the dough. When I pull a windowpane, this dough it is fragile and tears easily, even after I have mixed the dough at length.

NOTE - This is the only formula that I continually struggle with in regards to gluten development and moderately open crumb. This is why I draw the conclusion that the add ins are my nemesis. I have tried using a pestle and motar to reduce the size of the add ins, supplemented a portion of the flour with KA high gluten (Sir Lancelot) flour, excessively machine kneaded, stretch and folds, low hydration (60%) Levain, etc.. The breads are not baking as bricks and neither is the crunb gummy. Your bake shows me that a more open crumb is achievable. I want to ride that train <LOL>

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

the seeds at the end? My plan is to up the hydration and just mix the flours and the Levain together for gluten development and then add the seeds etc at the end. Hope this works for the more open crumb. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have put the seeds in near the end of the mix, but I still didnkt achieve the open crumb. I also tried laminating the seeds towards the end, but if memory serves me well the seeds weren’t evenly dispersed.

Danni, can you relate to my issue? Is your experience similar to mine?

I love these Community Bakes. Seeing David’s crumb shows me that a more open texture is possible.

Thanks for the reply.

Danny

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55632/hamelman’s-5-grain-levain-sort-🙄

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56789/5-grain-levain-bulgur

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57753/7-levain-bulgur-and-sunflower-seeds

They all have a pretty open crumb but note that I made these by hand and not with a mixer. I am going to use a mixer this weekend. Your comments are the reason I am thinking of adding the seeds after the gluten is developed, and to do that and not kill my mixer with four batches, I need to up the hydration. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

WOW, Danni! That is phenomenal crumb for the Five-Grain.

Any thoughts as to what you did to produce that?

Danny

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

So basically, much higher hydration and I used Trevor’s premix method. I think that’s the only time I have used it. I got really flat loaves with a great crumb. Go figure!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

amazing and glad to see that hand-mixing works too as I don't have a mixer and will mix by hand. I tend to approach this a little bit like the porridge breads that I've made where I let the gluten develop for an hour or so in bulk and then added the porridge/seeds either via lamination or gently folding into the dough. 

This might be helpful for everyone pondering on seed inclusion methods....great post on IG with  an interesting discussion in the comments on how to best fold seeds in...trying to get my head around that cutting into thirds bit...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsJF2HiHCGp/

It will be a bit of an experiment... Kat

p.s. I thought I better use what I have in the cupboard and will use some Rye flakes (from trip to Germany), some mixed seeds (sunflower, poppy, linseed, pumpkin) and then some pinhead oats...

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Kat, I checked out the Instagram link. I am not clear as to how the seeds are mixed in. The instructions say, “basically you dump the seeds into the box, divide in three, then push into the dough”.

Please elaborate. I need better instructions.

Thanks

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

but it is hidden in the comments and goes something like, where Adam explains more on this...I hope this makes more sense and have not tried this yet myself but thought it was nice to see how different baker approach this...

  • ...when you’re proofing dough, spronkle seeds over the top then cut into 3 chunks with your hands and layer the 3 chunks on top of each other and repeat.
    You’ll end up with 9 layers of dough / seed / dough / seed etc. Then when you go to shape they’ll be fairly evenly incorporated without disturbing the dough too much    
  •  
Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

... that I still have much to learn.  I'd love to watch you work, Danni!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Danni's crumb is sure beautiful. 

Re. machine vs. hand mixing: With machine mixing, there is the danger of over-mixing. This does two bad things. First, it can oxidize the carotenoid pigments in the flour. They are significant contributors to flavor. You get whiter bread with a flat flavor. I have done this as an experiment with a 100% whole wheat bread. I got the most open crumb over with less flavor than ever. The second issue is that mechanical mixing performs dough folding in a stereotypic fashion. This results in a much more even crumb structure but not the desired random distribution of highly variably sized holes. Think a woven fabric versus a black widow spider web. (Yeah. Not so appetizing, but I couldn't think of a better analogy at the moment.) So, hand mixing or a short mix with 2 stretch and folds as I did will produce a nicer crumb structure (IMO) than using high gluten flour and intensive machine mixing. Better flavor too.

Re. When to add solids: I followed Hamelman's procedure and added all ingredients to the mixer bowl at the same time. Well, I did disperse the salt and levain in the water before adding the flours and soaker. I often do add nuts and seeds at the end of the mix. I have never done so with this bread. Another thought would be to do an autolyse with just the flours and the water and the levain before adding the salt and seeds. This gives you a head start on gluten development. (Yeah. I know adding the levain isn't in the original concept of autolyse. But Calvel was making baguettes with fresh yeast and a pâte fermenté. With a liquid levain like this, most of the total water is in the levain, and it needs to be part of the autolyse.)

Happy baking!

David

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I have not had good luck when mixing the soaker ingredients during folds, but many do better with that.  I find it's too hard to incorporate before the dough really tightens up.

My approach is sift the bran for the levain, grind the flax seeds, and use boiling water for the soaker.  I find the sunflower seeds, oats and cracked rye get pretty soft with boiling water and don't impede the gluten structure too much.

Is the windowpane really what we're looking for with a bread like this that contains so many solid additives?  I'm more looking for gluten strands after the relatively short mixing time prescribed by Hamelman, with a hydration level I know I like to work with. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

In the process of reading Avanced Bread and Pastry, I came upon a paragrapgh that peaked my interest.

”A common mistake made by many bakeries is to continue mixing when the temperature of the dough is too cold. While the extra friction created by this process will warm up the dough, the extra mixing time will also continue to develop the gluten of the dough. The end result may be the desired dough temperature, but the dough will likely be overdevel- oped, creating gluten with an excess of extensibility (due to the breaking of some gluten strength) and a lack of elasticity. Elasticity is the property of dough to retract to its initial position after being stretched. The dough will also be sticky and very difficult to work with, and the final product will have the tendency to be flat, with a dense inside and little cut open- ing. Adjusting the first fermentation time is a much safer procedure, and is strongly advised.”

In the past I have focused on thoroughly mixing the dough in an effort to build a strong dough. But the resulting dough is sticky and hard to handle. I am now considering the possiblility that I unintentionally over mixed the dough, and in the process over worked and over stretched the gluten strands to the point of breaking.

My next attempt, unless I learn a better technique is to mix less, and trust the S&F and time spent during the BF to develop the gluten and make a stronger, more gas filled dough.

Anyone have any thoughts on the above? Yea or nay?

I keep reading, keep thinking, and keep trying.

Dan

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I believe I said as much, although with much less informative explanation, in a couple of comments. 

When I first started baking bread, I was frightened of not developing the gluten sufficiently. It took several years for me to convince myself that flour being exposed to water for long enough and a bit of stretch and folding give more pleasing results that any amount of machine mixing.

It was probably making Chad Robertson's breads that turned on the light for me.

Now, working with enriched doughs and very low hydration doughs are other stories, but the above holds for almost all my bread making.

David

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Great find, Danny. David, please explain what you mean about enriched doughs. I recently made Hamelman’s brioche using commercial yeast. The ingredients are all supposed to be refrigerated and the butter cold but pliable. The end result was beautiful. But the texture was to me cakey. I didn’t get wispy strands; the bread simply broke. It was delicious, but I was wondering if there was a problem with gluten development or over-development.  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I am no expert on highly enriched doughs. A medium rich "Vienna dough" is about my limit. But my understanding of why shortening is called shortening is that is shortens gluten strands. Doughs with lots of fat need much more intensive mixing. In fact, many of them are mixed quite a bit before the fat is added, I think. Sugar is another story. It is hydroscopic and interferes with gluten development by competing for the water needed for gluten formation.

Look elsewhere for real experience with brioche-type doughs. I don't have any.

David

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

Typically if sugar is below 15% you don't really need to take any special considerations for it in the mixing stage.  When you start getting in to really high sugar doughs you will need to stage your sugar additions.  Otherwise you can find yourself with a big bowl of soup (it's actually quite fascinating to do as an intellectual curiosity kind of thing).  Also when you get really high in sugar it actually slows down the yeast.  If you are able to get your hands on SAF Gold it is specifically intended for high sugar dough and it makes a world of difference.  Otherwise you will find yourself using a really silly amount of yeast to get your dough to rise in a descent amount of time.

As far as fats I've seen a number of techniques from cutting butter into really large blocks and putting them in at the start so they slowly incorporate throughout the mix to developing gluten then adding fat.  This is also a situation where if your fat is above a 15-20% it's best to add it in slowly.  Everything you said seem pretty accurate thought I'd just fill in a little more info for anyone interested!  Most brioche mixes are very intensively mixed doughs, 20+ minute mix times is not uncommon at all.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

keep the dough in the mixer? I am new to this but generally do a couple of minutes to mix for the autolyse, then it rests for 2 hours. I do  a minute for adding the salt and the levain on low and then 5 minutes on speed to to develop the gluten.

If there are add-ins, they go in at the end and it takes probably a couple of minutes at most to integrate them. I don’t worry about dough temperature. I keep the dough in a warm spot and do my folds every half hour for 4 sets then go to hourly folds until I see irregular shaped small bubbles.

The dough then visits the fridge for a few hours. It gives time for the dough to ferment slowly and stiffens it for pre-shaping. It also delays the final retarding for proofing so I don’t have to get up in the middle of the night to bake as I don’t like to let my loaves proof for more than 10 hours. I am really happy with the crumb I have been getting using this method. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

than those cracking looking loaves David......! Kat

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Excellent crumb, David!

Va's picture
Va

May I ask why you switch to convection for the second half of the bake? Does it reduce the steam more quickly or...? 

Love the honey/molasses color of your crust.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

After the crust sets, I want a dry oven. The convection fan, in my oven at least, vents the steam and also blows hot air over the loaves. I think it makes for a crisper/more crunchy crust, which I prefer. 

Thanks for the compliments.

David

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Nice!

Jeffrey Hamelman's picture
Jeffrey Hamelman

Awesome bread, David. I LOVE it when loaves baked in a home oven look as good as anything coming out of commercial bakeries. Yours sure do. Really inspiring!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

You, my man, are the inspiration! Your book is the best. I'd love to take one of your classes. One of us is on the wrong coast. <sigh>.

Thank you so much for your kind words.

David

hreik's picture
hreik

So well done. 

hester

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I would love to see images of windowpanes. Please pull a nice windowpane and take a photo. Maybe a windowpane after mixing and then another windowpane after the stretch and folds and BF are complete. I think will be a great help for myself and others.

Since the add ins are a much larger percentage than the typical dough these images may help.

Danny

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

is the difference between the two beautiful crumbs (three,  if you count Danni's). Even making allowances for different cameras and lighting, the crumb color varies wildly. There's a lesson here, but of what, I'm not sure!

I only hope I can do half as well.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I believe the difference is photographic technique. I can tell you the color my bread's crumb has on my computer screen is very accurate. To me, Danni's photo has a bluish cast. I assume it's distorted. I am open to being corrected.

David

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

from the kitchen window that gives it that bluish tint. 

David R's picture
David R

... very grossly oversimplify ...

 

Imagine that you created an artistic light show, in which beautiful paintings are projected onto a plain white backdrop -

 

And now imagine that one venue's organizers bought the wrong shade of blue lightbulbs, while at another venue the backdrop is an odd shade of yellow - "We knew you wouldn't mind"

 

😝

 

That's how it goes with displaying digital photos, more or less.

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

A modified Hamelman 5-grain

It's -20 degrees outside so going to the store early in the morning to get supplies wasn't really in the cards so much as a nice cup of coffee and some toast.  So I made due with the ingredient I had on hand.

My soaker consisted of Millet, Oats, Flax Seed, Sunflower Seed and Poppy Seeds.  I also rolled the top of the loaf in sesame seeds after shaping just because I like the flavor and look of toasted sesame on the outside of a grain loaf.

My main modifications include : Substituted freshly milled Rye flour for whole grain flour because I didn't have any on hand.  Added 1.5% Vital Wheat Gluten to the dough because I didn't have any high gluten flour. 

I also decided to hand mix my dough because I hadn't done slap an fold in a while and I just kind of felt like really feeling the dough come together.  I had to add a very significant amount of water, couldn't tell you how much as this was more of a by feel bake for me and I wasn't really concerned about recording these details.  Due to the hand mixing process I folded the dough at 20, 40, and 60 minutes and then left it untouched till the a little after the 2 hour mark before moving on to pre-shaping.

Here are my results:

 

Thanks for setting up this great community bake!  I think this is a fan favorite for sure.

Happy baking,

Lyndon

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Great oven spring and a beautiful open crumb! Well done!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

love the crumb! very well done

Leslie

pul's picture
pul

Looks great all around. Have you retarded your dough after shaping it?

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

Yes I did retard it...Only for about 6 hours though because I'm a dunce and after I put it in the fridge I accidentally left the fridge door cracked and when I went to the fridge next it was nearly at 60 degrees so instead of going overnight I baked it before I went to bed to avoid over proofing. Also a little trick for grain breads or really any bread with large particulates is that I use a really sharp serrated knife to score instead of a lame.  With a grain bread it is certainly not as important but with something like a raisin walnut bread or a bread with large chunks of cheese etc it is much more effective than a razor.   These are the one's I prefer : https://www.pastrychef.com/SCORING-KNIFE-SERRATED_p_965.html .  I carry one when I'm working in the bakery at all times and they are super handy to always have on your persons as you work.  You can keep them sharp with a basic file sharpener and over time you will wear down the serrated edge.  With heavy usage in a bakery one of these lasts me about a year so for 2.99 it's an absolute steal.  Probably my most used small tool.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I can tell you how thrilled I am to see so many gorgeous crumbs! I’ve baked this bread for years and don’t remember having such a nice crumb. These images give me great hope.

I am impressed that you were able to substitute whole rye for the whole wheat and still produce and open crumb, beautiful score, and a voluminous loaf <WOW>

I strongly suspect I am over mixing, and presently working to rectify that.

IMO, these Community Bakes are a wonderful way to improve our skills with a focus on a specific bread.

Thanks for participating. 

Dan

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

Thank you so much of the kind words Dan.  I probably spent about 8-10 minutes in the mixing stage.  It took me a minute to get to the right hydration and I had some descent development through the slap and folds but I think a lot of the structure I built was the folds at 20 40 and 60 minutes.  With each subsequent fold I could feel the dough building great strength.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Congratulations and enjoy it. And stay warm!

Keep on baking,

Carole

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

That's as good as it gets.  Well done.

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

Thank you so much.  I had some pretty awesome teachers including Jeffrey Hamelman himself.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The crumb is improving, but I haven’t  tried my “over mixing” theory out yet. Next bake I plan to shorten the mixing time and rely on S&F.

For this bake I used a 60% hydration starter. I considered the possibility that the levain for first bake introduced too much acid load into the dough. My mixing time was as usual (possibility over mixed). The shaped dough was retarded over night, which is my normal practice, but this time I tried something new. I always bag the shaped dough for retarding. This time I covered only the top of the linen lined banneton with plastic in the hope that the dough wouldn’t be too wet once removed. I think this helped and plan to experiment with this more.

A point of interest - to those that plan to use a different levain hydration. Let’s say the formula calls for 200g levain at 100% hydration and the total flour in the formula is 1000g. In this case the Percentage of Flour Prefermented would be 10%. But you want to reduce the levain hydration to 50%. You might be inclinded to mix 200g of levain @ 50% hydration. That’s how I think. BUT, the important thing to maintain is the Percentage of Flour Prefermented. In order to maintain the correct percentage of flour prefermented you will still need 100g of flour in your levain. And to get a 50% hydration for 100g flour, 50g of water should be used. In this case your levain weight is now 150 instead of 200. The additional 50g of water should be used in the final dough mix. I included this because I've made this mistake before and thought others may do so, also.

An observation - Although this bread had a great flavor, I don’t think it was quite as good as the other bakes that were made with a wetter starter. Next baker, I’ll follow the master and go with 125% hydration. I plan to use the levain young.

Anyway, back to the bread. Here are my present results. Hoping for a home run, next bake... Don’t get me wrong, I am happy with this bread. Just looking for a wee bite more open crumb. As I’ve stated, I have never baked a Five-Grain Levain and had it taste anything but great. Thanks Jeffrey!

Dan

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

That looks great, Danny. Is this bake taking you aqay from your flooring or something?

All the best,

Carole

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It sure is, Carole. I’ll have to get back to renovating in full speed soon. The flooring installers are scheduled.

But what a great detour! Everyone’s loafs are impressive. These bakes are always so informative.

Danny

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

laciness in this one! Good job!

Back to the flooring for you :-)

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

Love the crust coloration you have got on this.  After I pulled my loaf out I was sort of wishing I had baked it a little hotter and achieved a nicer deep brown color.  Looks good!

hreik's picture
hreik

Delicious.  Great recipe.  Varied it only in using golden flax and sesame in equal #s.  Next time I'm scoring differently.  Hopefully will get more lift.

5GrainLevain

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

How did you mix the dough and did you stretch and fold.

One more question. Did you go with 125% hydration?

IMO, when it comes to taste, this bread is seriously hard to beat. For me, the only bread to rival this one is the SFSD.

Danny

hreik's picture
hreik

So I never use a mixer unless I'm doing Hokkaido milk bread.  Never.  Because I prefer to feel the gluten as it develops.  Also, I mix it leaving out some water, wait 10 - 15 minutes, mix it some more, adding more water and finally a third time.  I learned this from Trevor J. Wilson's videos.  Gradually adding in more water until i feel it's right.

I did 3 stretch and folds.  My kitchen is far from 76F, more like 66 so I planned on a longer bulk fermentation which ended up being about 5 hours.  Then in fridge over night.

I used 100% hydration levain.

Thanks again, Danny

hester

hreik's picture
hreik

taste.  Trying to figure out why the taste is better than his sourdough seed bread which I also love.  Maybe b/c of the oats and b/c the seeds aren't toasted.... for me that last thing is counter intuitive b/c I love toasted seeds... but this is better and crust is amazing.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hester, I really hope that bakers that have never baked the Five-Grain Levain will be introduced to it through the Community Bake. If they try it, I’m sure they’ll like it.

I haven’t been able to pin down what makes this bread so good. Even when I substitute different add ins the breads remains outstanding.

Danny

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Color crumb, crust -- all great. You must be very happy with that bake!

Interesting that you say it tastes better without toasting the seeds. 

Am I to understand that you bulked for 5 hours and then put the dough in the fridge, or after 5 hours you shaped and retarded the loaves?

Lovely bread,  it's making me eager to try! 

Keep on baking. 

Carole 

hreik's picture
hreik

My apologies for the confusion.  I wasn't clear.  I shaped after about 5 hours and then into the fridge for final rise.

It's really delicious.  The best tasting multigrain bread I've done.  And I adore Hamelman's seeded sourdough.  This is better.  Not sure why. 

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion.

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

And thanks for clarifying.

This  will be my first time with such a liquid levains.  Very nervous!

Btw, what is w/r/t?

Keep on baking! 

Carole 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

it's only a levain, for crying' out loud!

wrt: "with regards to"

As far as the 125% hydration levains, they seem to be quite common in Mr. Hamelman's formulas.  So if you like what he has to offer this will be a good test bed to get your feet wet in.  The important thing, in fact to me the most important thing, is to understand that differing hydration levains, and indeed differing flours in differing hydration levains, do not all perform the same way.  They all have their own unique characteristics.  

Just two years ago I "documented" how a 125% hydration levain should respond and what to look for.  Have a gander at this and the follow-up comment which explains my experience in both white and rye 125% levains.  You might want to start at the top to glean a bit more information.   

Once more stressing the importance of understanding how a specific levain, both flour type as well as water content reacts.

There's a host of folks on TFL, Abe & dbm among others, who are eminently more qualified than little ol' me to discuss levains at length.  But consider this a starter kit for this bake.

alan

PS - I understand how different folks react differently to tasks at hand.  Just as I do.  But unless you're worried about blowing up the kitchen or you are like are Lucy Arnaz, gee, it's only water and flour we're dealing with here, not some international crisis.  If it works, you'll learn sumpin'.  If it doesn't work, you'll learn sumpin'. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and as I am just about to mix the levain pondering about the 125% levain Alan’s post catches my eye! Do I dare that I contemplated to make it a 100% levain instead and have more water for mixing flour? Main thought that with my starter the levain might mature too quickly at higher hydration over night? Oh well just flour, salt and water and go with the flow and follow Alan’s wisdom and certainly will read up on the different behaviour as intrigued!!! Nothing risked, nothing gained..  or a Churchill quote comes to mind..” Success is not final, failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts”..Kat

hreik's picture
hreik

    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

    And treat those two impostors just the same;  

 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---

it's a marvelous poem

 

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I'll lose the nerves and roll up my sleeves tomorrow! Not so much nervous as just intimidated by the gorgeous bakes that have already been posted.  

Thanks, Alan, for the link to your treatise on levain; I was just thinking that I should post a question about what to expect, time wise. 

Kat and Hester, thanks for the morale-boosting quotes. The bake will be fun, more new things to learn. As David says here, it's magic! 

Totally pooped, so will build second stage of leaven and start shutting down. This cold (nothing compared to north america) just takes the stuffing out of me ☺

Have a lovely evening, all.

FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

I certainly fed my culture at the normal 1:1 ratio that I normally keep it at...for what it's worth I think my bake turned out pretty nice.  Maybe if Jeffery pops back in he can comment on this himself, that would be intriguing to know his rational behind the 125% water.

hreik's picture
hreik

w/r/t is shorthand for: with respect to.

As for the levain, i used my usual 100% hydration levain and just added water as I was mixing, waiting and then again mixing...  Your bread will be great!!!.  Trust yourself and your hands.

hester

David R's picture
David R

w/r/t means "with regard to..." 🙂

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

It is true that this is an amazing tasting bread! You didn’t toast the seeds? Now that I look back on my last shot at this, I didn’t either. I am going to with this one. I just need more sunflower seeds but I sure don’t feel like going out when it is -31C (-24F) and -43C (-45F) with the windchill!

hreik's picture
hreik

It's 5 here and if i didn't have a dog i wouldn't have gone out.  Just substitute something else for the sunflower seeds.  don't risk yourself for seeds.... lol

I usually toast seeds.  I didn't this time.  The taste is amazing.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

all those amazing loaves that I am seeing...well actually I CAN knowing what bread baking loving dedicated people you all are! I'm going to get the soaker started tonight but feel a bit weak in my knees looking at all these amazing loaves..but it for certain is inspiring......!!  Kat

p.s. I can't believe some of the coldness I am hearing about and stay warm!!!! 

hreik's picture
hreik

coo coo.  In a good way. 

 

Frigid temps in parts of the country have necessitated the suspension of mail delivery.  In the Dakotas.  Chicago is scary.

hester

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

Yes the polar vortex has moved in to the Northeast. I am very thankful that my car has a new battery. But the community bake of this loaf is keeping my mind on other things. 

I mixed the starter and presoak with the additional flours I used a little bit of eikhorn so far so good. 

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

three loaves T

hanks Dan for organizing this. This was fun.

I came out with three lovely loaves despite my errors . first loaf was overmixed, and underfolded. Hence no big holes

loaf of breadsecond two loaves which I baked in Pullman pans were ok but I had my timing wrong and took them out of the fridge and let them set to long at room temperature. but my culinary muse aka my better half loved the bread.

crumb shot

hreik's picture
hreik

really lovely.   btw, it makes delicious toast.

Great job

hester

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Great work.

hreik's picture
hreik

the taste is spectacular.  Changing my menu for today to honor that taste.

hester

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

What is the menu?

hreik's picture
hreik

so.... lunch is porridge (oatmeal w bran).... still eating it but less, so I can have bread.

Dinner was going to be mushroom/ spinach saute plus tomato / sunflower/ arugula salad and now will be either the mushroom or the salad (not both)  with bread and smoked salmon or better yet, some cheese.  lol

Hubby is a meat eater so he'll have his burger....

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

With so many variations of ingredients and procedures. Yet all experience how wonderful this bread tastes.

The ingredients I have always felt make the biggest difference are the oats and the flax seeds. But how the dough is fermented has a big impact too. I found a big difference made by the cold retardation.

Oh, well. It must be magic.

David

hreik's picture
hreik

Danny for the community bake,

Floyd for maintaining this marvelous site, where we all learn so much.  Ty

Thank you both

hester

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Thanks Dan for setting this up. I posted my (rather overly documented) entry here. This is one of my favorites and always enjoy having some of it around.

 

Crumb shot:

-Brad

Abe's picture
Abe

As a personal compliment. Can't reply to every single post as the bakes are coming in fast. All of them lovely! Been looking through all the interpretations of this delicious recipe and you've all done it justice. 

Anyone who hasn't tried this recipe yet and isn't quite sure if they're going to join in or not then please don't hesitate anymore. It's a fine recipe and you won't be disappointed. 

There's something special about Hamelman's breads and I've never baked one which I haven't enjoyed. 

Hope to be joining you all this weekend. 

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

For christmas 2017 my wonderful brother gave me a signed copy of this book. And every recipe I have tried so far has come out great; This recipe is one I might not have tried on my own but the impetus of learning from other better bakers make me want to try it again. That and the fact that I bought 12 pounds of assorted grain last week at a local grain distributior!

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Not to get too far ahead, but there’s a rye sourdough version of this bread on page 254. I’ve made it a couple times and it’s lovely.

This would be a nice follow-up for the next community bake.  Due to the rye sourdough it’s a same day bake (not counting the overnight preferment); the bulk and final rise are each 60-90 minutes depending on whether or not commercial yeast is included. 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

My rye starter would love a chance to play!

breadyandwaiting's picture
breadyandwaiting

Hi everyone, first time poster!!

First I'd like to thank the members here. I discovered the joys of bread baking late last year and have been using this website as a resource before and after virtually every bake. Reading through your blogs and threads and watching your videos has resulted in quite a dramatic improvement in my loaves for which I (and my family and friends) are quite grateful. So, a sincere thank you!!

Second, I think (perhaps naively) that I have reached a point where this recipe will not automatically result in disaster, so I will be heading to the supermarket tomorrow and hope to join in soon!!

Thanks for starting this, Dan, and fantastic job to those who have already participated!! 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Looking forward to your bake! 

Carole 

breadyandwaiting's picture
breadyandwaiting

Thanks, Carole!!

Here it is. 

Unfortunately impatience caught me twice -- I can tell the loaf is underproofed (I got very nervous at the prospect of letting the loaf stay in the fridge for 16 hours and decided to pull it after 6 to bake before sleep), and I completely forgot the seeds on the outside... but overall not a disaster, which was my goal!! Going to carefully read through everyone's experiences and try this one again!!

5 grain

breadyandwaiting's picture
breadyandwaiting

Crumb is more open than I was expecting. And, most important, flavor is delicious!! Excellent choice of recipe. Will be making this one many times in the future I'm sure!! Thanks for organizing, Dan!

 

pul's picture
pul

I would like to share my results with the five-grain sourdough, baked this morning for breakfast. I have used a different grain combination to make use of what I had available in the pantry. I used a combination of AP flour (75%) and a mix of whole wheat (20%) with fresh milled rye flour (5%). My grains were a combination of whole wheat + rye bran, quinoa, buckwheat flakes, and crushed brown flax seeds. I am not sure if it is a problem of my interpretation, but I found out that the total % grain is much higher than what I was expecting. Even though I prepared all the grains according to the baker's % using Dan's spreadsheet information, I ended up using only a third of it, according to the quantities below.

 

Levain  
Flour15%93 g
Water15%93 g
Starter5%31 g
 35%217 g
Soaker  
Wheat + Rye bran3%17 g
Flaxseeds2%10 g
Quinoa3%21 g
Buckwheat flakes3%21 g
Boiling Water11%68 g
Salt0%0
 22%136 g
Dough  
Flour58%357 g
WW25%155 g
Water38%236 g
Salt2%9 g
 122%756 g
   
Total Flour100%620 g
Total water89%549 g
   
Total dough weigh223%1383 g

The whole wheat and rye bran are underneath in the picture below, and I used buckwheat flakes, crushed flax and two quinoa types. I pored boiling water on the grains 12 hours before autolysing.

This time I did some 30 min autolysing which included the levain. The grains and salt were added after the autolyse procedure. I stretched the dough on the counter to add the soaked grains and salt, then incorporated by kneading. I had to add a lot of water to come up with the dough hydration that I was looking for. After done the incorporation of grains and salt, I went through 3 sets of stretches and folds, which provided the dough structure. Bulk fermentation went on for about 4.5 hours. I shaped the batard and retarded it for about 4 hours before baking, and then I retarded the remaining dough for about 6 hours after bulk fermentation before shaping the boule, proofing it and baking it. The results are shown below, but no boule crumb shot is available because it was given away. Overall, the crust with all those add-ins tastes nutty and the structure is so crunchy. The crumb is moist and the nice distribution of the add-in grains elevate the flavors, making this a perfect winter bread combination.

 

Abe's picture
Abe

Very nice crumb with a wonderful mix of seeds.

Nice write up too.

Can only hope mine comes close.

pul's picture
pul

Thanks Abe, looking forward to seeing yours. Should be great as always.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and reading your process also heartened me as just put mine in the fridge and totally out of my depth with this very different loaf. However, I also found that the even short 30min AL with the levain helped a lot to build gluten upfront.

Also, I spread the dough  and put the seeds on top....then just decided to make a swiss roll to distribute and back and by then the dough was wet enough to manual mix more in...

Very new experience and we shall see tomorrow what will happen?  ...Kat

pul's picture
pul

This is how it is done, i like the Swiss roll idea. I was overwhelmed by the amount of seeds, so I chickened out and reduced it. Anyhow, the flavor was still amazing. Looking forward to seeing your bake result and others too.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Pul, next time “keep the faith” and try the full percentage of seeds. I’m sure you’ll like it.

The flavor is so good, when I eat it my eyes roll back in my head <LOL> Each and every time I eat a slice, it is a culinary expedition. I‘m not kidding...

Danny

hreik's picture
hreik

I bet it's delicious also.

I'm so enamored of this recipe I'm going to do 4 small loaves soon.......... maybe even this weekend.

hester

pul's picture
pul

Looking forward to see your creation

hreik's picture
hreik

just look about 1/2 way up the page and you'll see my first loaf. Actually a dual pic from the pic-collage app.  Love this bread so much the second dough is rising as I type.  I posted my first try and don't want to take up more space.. this thread is already very long.

hester

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Pul,

Amazing bake, truly amazing crumb.  Hard to see how another 30 g of soaker would have hurt.  Please tell us what process you use to get this crumb.

Phil

pul's picture
pul

Thanks Phil

I haven't done anything out of the normal. I did an autolyse for 40 min, and that helped to form some gluten structure. The dough and seeds were thirsty, so I added water twice after incorporating the seeds in intervals of 10 min apart. Probably it had the same effect of bassinage which helps with open crumb. After that I just applied 3 stretches and folds within 40 min apart. The other factor may have been the final hydration which was 89% because of the seeds.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It looks like many, probably most bakers are adding additional water to their dough. I added an extra 2% to the dough  that is retarding now. Hamelman gets things right. I come up with 2 possiblilities. 

1 - The diving arm mixers handle the slighter drier dough different

2 - We may be loosing small amounts of water in the soaker. Either by weighing the water first and then boiling, resulting in a lose via evaporation. Or water lose during the soaker rest via metabolic action and/or water droplets clinging to the soaker’s container (plastic wrap) cover. I think It also helps to mix more levain than necessary. Doc Dough’s theory of weight lose during levain fermentation is viable. The lose is measurable. I have started the practice of mixing more levain than called for and weighing out the required amount while adding to the dough.

Whatever the case, the Participants of the Community Bake say time and time again that they add additional water. The diiference between 98 and 100% on a full sized formula of 2126g is only an additional 18g of water.

Question - should I up the hydration from a total of 98% water to 100% in the spreadsheets at the top of this page? Looking for your thoughts on this.

Every bake posted to date are excellent. Through this CB my skills for this bread has grown exponentially. Thanks to all participants.

Danny

Va's picture
Va

First time participating in a community bake
First time to bake a seeded multigrain loaf
First time to decipher a spreadsheet


Going with the smaller single loaf. Thanks for doing the math, DanAyo and for proposing this community bake.

At the critical moment, I realized I was out of whole wheat. In the spirit of multi-grain, I went with 350g bread flour, 70g spelt flour and 8g of dark rye. I hope that counts. Adding rolled oats, sunflower seeds, pepitas, and flaxseeds. Pounded the flaxseed in a mortar, so the seeds are half crushed and half not.

The seeds and grains are soaking, the levain is built, and I'm doing an overnight autolyse of the flours and water, since TJ Wilson’s Champlain Sourdough is my go-to formula.

Excited to roll the shaped loaf in seeds. That, and using a serrated knife for a lame, will be two more firsts. 
I’m posting this now so I won’t back out of posting the results when I bake on Sunday, no matter how it comes out.   
FueledByCoffee's picture
FueledByCoffee

Sounds great, can't wait to see the results with the long autolyse.  Did you have to increase the water?  I know a lot of the hydration in this formula is in the starter.

Va's picture
Va

Bear in mind I subbed spelt for whole wheat, and did an overnight autolyze. The levain was so soupy, not like my usual 1-2-2 build at all, but it came together into a silky dough until I added the seeds. They'd absorbed all the liquid (boiling water, overnight), but were so glutinous, working them gently into the dough pushed it from silky to sticky.

I've done a couple of stretch and folds and it's behaving like 75% hydration dough.

Don't know if that helps. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Yesterday afternoon I gave the flaxseeds a quick grind in the coffee grinder then toasted them plus the cracked rye, oats and sunflower seeds, refreshed the starter.  Before bed I mixed up 125% hydration levain and added boiling water and salt to the toasted seeds. and left overnight to do their stuff

This morning added the remaining water to the soaker then mixed in the levain. Here's how it looked

I then added the flour and the remaining salt and mixed.  I forgot that I was just going to do stretch and folds and did about 100 slap and folds then rested the dough 15 minutes and did a set of stretch and folds. This was followed by another 3 sets of stretch and folds over next couple of hours and then left to bulk ferment.  the dough was quite firm although a little sticky.  3.5 hours later it had increased about 75% so the preshaped and left for 30 minutes

Shaped and placed in banneton and left to proof.  An hour and a quarter later I popped it in the fridge and preheated the oven for an hour. 

Before scoring

Baked in DO 15 minutes lid on at 255 deg C then 15 minutes lid off at 225 deg C.

Finally the crumb

I am very happy with how it turned out - the crumb isn't wildly open but is a great sandwich style. 

Leslie

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I think you did really well with the crumb! It isn’t closed at all!

I have my Levain going and the seeds soaking. Like you, I also toasted the seeds. I’ll be making up the dough tomorrow and baking Sunday morning. I sure hope my loaves turn out as nice as the ones being posted on here!  

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

look forward to your bake, it will be great I reckon!

Leslie

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Leslie and I am intrigued that you did slap and folds because with such a stiff dough I was worried about making it too strong doing that. It is such a different experience with less hydration and how best to judge the dough for me...

Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

as you found out it is relatively firm so I didn’t get much stretch.  lots going on here when I was mixing etc so I was a bit distracted, but reallyhappy with outcome.  no ear though - can’t seem to get one atm...

thanks Kat

Leslie

hreik's picture
hreik

It is imho an outstandingly delicious bread.

hester

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

thanks hester

Leslie

pul's picture
pul

Great result Leslie. The crumb looks quite aerated with nice distribution of holes.

 

Va's picture
Va

100 slap and folds - do you think they contributed to your loaf having such a nice height?  Something for me to aspire to, 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Funnily enough saw that term just being used yesterday by someone after a bake on IG and  was coined by Josey Baker apparently and boy can I relate...though don't have the biggest 'bread ego' to start with!

I thought all in all for first time on this loaf I did not badly (famous last thoughts) although a bit worried as also trying out retarding en couche which was a first and shaping as oblong... and only tiny one in banneton.

I was soooo tempted to add water as so out of my comfort zone but stuck to the instructions.

and then disaster struck when I got it out of the fridge as above and they all stuck to the couche!!!!! Even the one in the banneton needed helping out!

So whether this totally killed my oven spring or whether they were also overproofed...I don't know...

So here we go...whale breads!!! It probably is my worst bake in a while but it for sure tastes great!

Even my son who normally refuses to eat seeded bread really liked it and also great as toasties...so there is some comfort. 

I need to ponder to see what I can do differently.   Kat

p.s. I used rye flakes instead of the cracked rye, rolled oats and then a mix of sesame seeds, poppy seeds, flaxseeds and sunflower seeds. 

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

This is just a thought I  and i know other better bakers will add to it . What about mixing some corn starch or rice flour on the couche?

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

but yesterday ran out and prepped the couche with normal flour. Should have known better especially as I retarded the bread in the fridge for 16 hours and considering the moist dough with the seeds! I live and learn...and eat bread... Kat

hreik's picture
hreik

Just gorgeous.  And the recipe imho is perfection

I swear by rice flour.  For me, it's a must.  In a pinch, I am wondering if laying parchment paper underneath the loaves b/f putting them in the couche would help.  Then you just lift out the loaves and bake them on the parchment..... just a thought... for next time.

 

hester

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and might try that Hester! Thank you for the tip! 

Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks for posting your “less than perfect” loaf, Kat. IMO, this is keeping with the true spirit of the Community Bake (CB). If all we post are our glorious successes, new comers might be intimidated. They might get the erroneous idea that we never fail. And all of us know that ain’t so ;-)

Maybe one day we should post some of our flops. If it serves to encourage others it would be worthwhile, AND fun.

In spite of the outward appearance, you said the bread tasted great. What better compliment for Mr. Hamelman?

NOTE - I haven’t posted compliments for most of the gorgeous bakes in this thread. But needless to say, “I am impressed

Danny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Okay. So you had a problem that is probably totally due to running out of rice flour. But the crumb looks wonderful and the eating is good. Aesthetics are less important than how a bread is to eat. That's what it's about, isn't it?

The alternative suggested - to proof on parchment - is a good one. Next time. 

We learn the most from our mistakes, not from our successes. Right?

Happy baking!

David

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

It is a lovely dough, just remember not to be scared by the high hydration ‘cause the seeds suck it all up and the dough is actually quite manageable.  did you drop levain hydration so you could have more liquid to do an autolyse? 

such fun everyone making this bread!

Leslie

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I kept the original hydration....and 125% levain. The dough did not feel wet but much firmer to my normal doughs....I will try again... 😂Kat

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

 it my dough still feel very stiff! In the middle of it now. 

pul's picture
pul

It is amazing how open the crumb can get in spite of so much seeds. That toast for breakfast would be a treat.

Va's picture
Va

I'm a little intimidated by all the unknown factors but curious and hopeful too.  This morning the autolyzed flour and water was a stiff lump, and the levain was a bubbly puddle. It was like pouring créme anglaise over a softball. Yikes. 

 I dimpled and pinched and folded and turned for about eight minutes. To feel it turn into supple dough was very encouraging.  I was back in familiar territory and started paying more attention to the feel of it than the clock.
 
Gave it a 15-minute rest, added the salt I'd forgotten, and gathered it up, folded, and turned for another five minutes-ish.  Put the dough in a clean bowl and scooped the (boiling water) soaked seed and grain mix on top. 

Folded them in for a few minutes in the bowl. Pretty much used the method I've used to add cranberries and walnuts, or Asiago and pancetta. 

It's in the oven with the light on.

The tape - well, baker, know thyself. I'm one of those people who either think they've passed the exit and turn around when it's right around the bend or drive three exits past my turnoff because my mind wandered. I need a visual marker so I don't jump too soon or too late. I've found it more helpful than the clock.

What kind of rise are we looking for here, before it goes into the banneton for an overnight retard. 30%, 50%? Double?

Re: levain loss; I was 3g short when I scraped out my container this morning and I went after it with a spatula. I usually have some leftover but made this one up exactly as written. I stole the missing gs from a 1-2-2 levain mix destined for a different loaf. 

Re: overall hydration: the overnight autolyze was a very stiff lump of water and flour but hand mixed with the pool of leaven became a very supple dough. The addition of the wet, glutinous seeds and grains moved it to the border of wet territory. About how the Champlain Sourdough feels. Counting on a few stretch and folds. 

Hope this isn't TMI. The other comments have been so helpful! Informative and reassuring.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Maybe we should video and post our reactions to the bread as we taste it for the first time. It would be hilarious.

I beieve you are in for a rare treat.

Thanks for documenting and photographing your bake so well. It not only serves to teach those who are currently participating but these records will provide help to other bakers long into the future.

Danny

My home is filled with the smell of baking bread as I write this...

update: I’m no authority on the amount of rise, but my best quess would be 30-50%

Va's picture
Va

Here's how it turned out. The levain was feeling feisty. It rose faster than I expected. When it reached this height, I moved it onto the counter

It poured out, like a big, spotted amoeba. Uh oh.
Preshape then bench rest for about 45 minutes.

It was like pushing around a balloon filled with helium and hair gel.   I sprinkled some sesame seeds on the top at the final shaping and in the banneton. I threw in some stitching because this was so wobbly and bubbly I knew oven spring was going to be problematic. Into the fridge and I was already thinking this was going to overproof if it stayed overnight. 

In order to steady my nerves, I mixed up a tried and true TJ Wilson pan loaf, and Maurizio Best with asiago. Figured if the seeded loaf was an epic fail, I'd still have edible bread. They were also rising with alacrity. I don't know why my starter was so ebullient, but she was.
I baked at 7pm, after six hours in the fridge, because the dough had risen over the top of the banneton.  First I baked the pan loaf, with steam, and then the seeded loaf, in my Dutch oven. 20 minutes covered, 20 minutes open.

 

.

If it had been twice as tall, I'd be twice as happy, but I am glad I gave it a try. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

Lets face it . We are on a quest. Thanks so much for all your documentation. I had many of the same experience and worries.

And my first try at this bread was not what I wanted . but I learned from my mistakes.

Happy Baking!

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

but close I think...? For details about this ugly creature, please read my latest post :)

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and amazing crumb Elsie! 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

Yours have gorgeous crumb too!

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Here's mine.  Is there ever a routine bake?  I intended to retard overnight and bake in the morning.  Then my father called to remind me that we have tickets to a show tomorrow (Sondheim's Some Night Music), and when I looked at the shaped loaves after 6 hours in the fridge they actually looked ready.  So I put them in the proofer after dinner while the over preheated.  I'm reasonably happy with the result.

Variations:  No commercial yeast, as always.  For the 25% WW I used a combination of 1 oz of white wheat, 3 oz of kamut, and 4 oz of red wheat, all home milled, along with the cracked rye.  I sifted and used the bran for the levain.  I ground the flax.  I added about 1/2 cup of water during the mix, which is standard for me with most bakes.  This was quite slack at first but the gluten improved with each fold.  Danny asked for photos showing the process, so here they are.

Proofy dough after 3 folds every 1/2 hour, plus another hour with no folds.  Bench knife in freezer, then dropped in flour gives a thin coating of flour.  I do the same after preshaping.

Proofed dough on counter.

Preshaped using drag around on counter method, i.e., SFBI video.

Shaped loaf, Hamelman method, 1st variation.

In the proofer as the oven preheats.  Are they proofed enough? 

35 minutes in the oven at what my oven says is 450 for 10 minutes, then what my oven says is 425 for the remainder.  It must be quite a bit hotter, and the spreader doesn't really spread, so I have to rotate the stone and the loaves multiple times to avoid uneven cooking.  Why do these look so different?  Note to self:  sunflower seeds impede scoring.

These are not identical twins.  I like the right one better.

Quite pleased with the crumb.  It's very soft.  The flavor is fantastic.  I'll bring the other loaf to my parents tomorrow.

hreik's picture
hreik

Those look pretty perfect.  Btw, it makes delicious toast.

It's the best recipe yet.  I was so enamored after my late week bake, I have four small loaves ready to put in the oven now.   I cannot get enough of this bread.

hester

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Bread is my go-to bread book, and TFL my trusted bread community, so here goes, my first community bake!  My take is Jeffrey Hamelman's recipe, using bread and wholewheat flours, with linseed (flaxseed), sunflower seeds, oats and malted wheat flakes for the soaker.  It's his method also with an overnight retard but a little extra proof (because it's snowy and cold here at the moment and the dough seemed to need it).  It tasted nutty, moist and flavoursome and was a hit this morning at breakfast with home-made, new season seville orange marmalade.  

Thank you Danny for setting this challenge, it's a great choice and been so encouraging watching other versions.  I'll definitely be repeating this one with maybe a few modifications inspired by others here.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

That crumb looks super tender. Well done!

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thanks Danni, I was worried about the 98% hydration (inc soaker water) but decided to trust JH, thinking he knew best....and he did!

hreik's picture
hreik

Crumb is great!

hester

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thank you Hester. I was a tad intimidated in such a knowledgeable community, but I shouldn't have worried, and it's the best way to learn.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I used 8 grains and added some black sesame seeds to the seed mix. I did keep the total amount the same. And of course, there is some of our local dairy’s yogurt  in there. They just came out of the oven so the crumb shot will need to wait for a bit. Full write up is here!

hreik's picture
hreik

Cannot wait to see your crumb.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and how do you get that oven spring with so many seeds? Unbelievable...

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

good gluten development, chilling the dough at the end of bulk, taut shaping and not letting it overproof in the fridge before baking. At least, when I put all of those things together, I’ve been happy with what I am getting. Makes for a long day though! 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

TomK's picture
TomK

Well done. Next weekend I plan to do the same bake and start on Saturday so I can cold proof in hopes of doing as well as you!

Tom

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

A really nice job there, Danni. 

-Brad

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I love being part of this community. So good for one’s self esteem! 😉

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Danni - Your results and your process are both exceptional. Keeping it cool seems to be a key to your success.

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

This was a fun experience: stiff, sticky dough, very strange.

Same old demon of not enough rise, but taste is great -- as Kat says, makes great toast. Will put together a blog post over the next couple of hours.

BTW, congratulations to everyone on the wonderful loaves being posted here. Too many coming in too fast to comment inviduually

Edit: write-up is here

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

is a hard thing to achieve. Personally I think you did very well! Your crumb looks great too. And the most important is how it tastes. We all agree that this is one fantastic tasting bread! Well done!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I will certainly be trying this one again? It is a yummy, wholesome loaf.

And yours, as always, looks perfect.

Keep on baking!

Carole

hreik's picture
hreik

The crumb is perfect.  imho, the taste is sublime... You did a fantastic job.

Danni is right about the heavy seeds.  This may sound ridiculous b/c of all those seeds, but they are wet and soft when added to the dough and less likely to puncture gluten strands.  But the bran in the whole wheat can still do that (puncture those strands) .... So this time, bizarre as it might sound, I sifted the whole wheat and added the sifted bran to the soaker, naturally adding more water.  My first loaf out of the oven got more rise than the bake last week.  So just a thought as to lift.

 

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Most interesting idea about sifting out the bran; I hadn't even thought of it, but now that you say so, it makes sense.

Did you toast and/or grind any of your seeds before soaking them? I'm wondering if that might have an effect, since toasting means we're removing some of the moisture from the seeds, no?

How soon will you be making this one again :-D?

Carole

hreik's picture
hreik



I just removed 4 small loaves from the oven.... ha ha ha.  The recipe is so good, I started making it again after the first bake of it.

I do not toast or grind my seeds b/f soaking. Well, I am no expert but the seeds are oily and I'd think some of that would be removed.

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Lovely shaping, blooming ears and rise, you got it all!

Did you retard at any point, or do this in one day?

Enjoy them and keep on baking! 

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll take another shot this week.

Carole 

hreik's picture
hreik

the final rise was about 12 hours in fridge. 

Hester

Abe's picture
Abe

Don't blame you for immediately baking it again. I love this recipe too. Gotta be the best tasting seeded bread I've ever made. Mine in the oven now and my place smells divine! 

Another great bake Hester. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

fast enough with all those beautiful loaves! Great bake Hester! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am fermenting the 125% levain now and getting the soaker ready. I love your idea of adding the wholewheat bran to the soaker. Brilliant! Even though the bran is added to the soaker, I plan to count it’s weight in the WW flour.

Thanks to the Internet the world’s best ideas and knowlegde is readily available to multitudes.

Danny

 

hreik's picture
hreik

I also counted it's weight, b/c it's still in the mix as flour, though now as soaked flour.  Of the 250 gm. of Whole wheat flour about 1/5 by weight was sifted out and used in the soaker.

hester

Abe's picture
Abe

Everyone has used slightly different ingredients in their own take on this lovely recipe. Soakers will therefore absorb differently not to mention the flours. I've done this before in the past and it's been dry. Other times it's been sticky. Don't worry too much about height as I'm sure it tastes excellent. Isn't it just a great tasting bread? 

Lovely, Carole. You know what I like. Pumpkin seeds are one of my favourite add-ins. I generally don't toast seeds before adding them into bread. If you toast the seeds, bake the bread and  and toast from the bread then that's double toasted and triple cooked. 

Abe's picture
Abe

Looks amazing Carole. Perfect crumb. That's going to toast up so nicely.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

but it turns out that my last one was almost the same thing - Very strange - I winder if Lucy had designed a Premonition app for this bake:-)  So here is mine

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/58982/sprouted-12-whole-grain-seeded-sourdough

Abe's picture
Abe

5 grain levain (+ 1). 

Wanted to used the cracked rye and rolled oats substitutes and then made up the rest with a mixed grain pack I use in seeded breads. Except it comes with 4 types of seeds. 

  • Used Green Wheat Freekeh in place of the cracked rye.
  • Rolled barley in place of oats. 
  • The rest were pumpkin, linseed, sesame and sunflower. 

Hakved the recipe and baked it in my pullman loaf pan. A lovely gift from Carole. Been experimenting with how much dough it takes and it seems that half this recipe is the perfect amount. 

I did not do an autolyse for a few reasons. Firstly, the recipe didn't call for it. Secondly, there isn't enough water to include one due to the high percentage of levain. And lastly, when the levain is this high an autolyse isn't necessary. 

Did the best if both worlds... Missed out the yeast, gave it 40 minutes bench time before refrigeration and then retarded for 4 hours. This allowed me to fit it into one day while getting benefits of not using added yeast and refrigeration. TBH I don't know why yeast is added when the levain percentage is this high. Refrigeration or not! 

If only you could smell this baking... But then again you all have :) Isn't it wonderful!!!!

hreik's picture
hreik

That is just beautiful.  Cannot wait to see crumb.  I'd love to know the weight of your loaf (approx) b/f baking and the size of your loaf pan.  It's a great idea to do this in a pan.

lovely lovely lovely

hester

Abe's picture
Abe

Been doing a little trial and error to find what size dough works best for this pullman loaf pan. I halved the recipe to end up with 1063g to find it's just perfect for this pan size. So instead of 3 small loaves I made one big loaf. Can't recommend this pullman enough. Makes a lovely crust and the bread doesn't stick at all! Didn't even use any oil/fat. Carole bought it for me and it's from a shop called Lakeland. Hope you can find something similar States Side. 

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/73272/Lakeland-Speciality-Bakeware-Pullman-1lb-Loaf-Tin-with-Slide-On-Lid

hreik's picture
hreik

Yes I have a Pullman Pan that's just right, the dimensions vary by a little, but not much.
 
Did you bake for 40? 45 minutes or longer?

hester

Abe's picture
Abe

Is still very limited. What I did was bake in a preheated oven at 230°C (446°F) for 40 minutes with the lid on. Because that how high my oven goes. I then carefully removed the loaf and returned it to the oven for a nice all over crust. About 10 minutes. Jeffrey advises this is a moist loaf so be careful to bake through properly and I do love a dark crust. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hester if my calcuation are correct, Abe’s pan is approximately 8” by 4”. abe the link to the pan you listed says it is good for a 450g loaf. Is this the correct link to your pan?

My pullman is 12 x 4 x 4. I think it would take a pan this large for a little over a kilo.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UNMZPI/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Danny

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Lovely bake, great color.  And I'm so happy you're having fun with your pan.

But if you baked with the lid on, how'd your loaf get so tall?

Most looking forward to your crumb shot. 

Keep on baking!

Carole 

Abe's picture
Abe

Having much fun with great results. The crust is just perfect in one of these loaf pans. 

Turns out I filled it just enough for some oven spring and it stopped just before the top completely flattened against the lid. Actually that's how you get perfect square bread in a pullman. I do know that's what many aim for. While it's still trial and error, and perhaps I'd need a bit more dough in the pan for that effect (about 50-100g extra?), I'm actually pleased with the results and like the dome on top. It has flattened out some but has a nice effect of a tall loaf. 

This pan is a must to have in one's baking collection. Those three small holes at the base are simple and effective. I haven't had to grease the pan yet. Turn it over and out pops the loaf. 

Portus's picture
Portus

I had not tried this loaf before, so my attempts as a relative novice were tentative.  I used a premix of sunflower, pumpkin, sesame and flax seeds, and followed the formula with reasonable attention to detail.  However, some points of departure were: I was confused when it came to shaping: perhaps implied by folding, I could see no mention made by JH of degassing before shaping.  I was wary of causing trauma owing to the seed mix, and, coupled with a rather sticky texture, tentatively shaped to batard on north/south axis on a floured board, then again after a ten minute rest but on east/west axis (I hope this makes sense!) with slightly more tension, before proofing in a banneton.

The end result was a slightly bulging proofed dough peeping over the top of the basket perhaps lacking in surface tension as the sides went a bit limp when on the baking stone; so it failed to deliver what I would have preferred by way of oven spring.  I did anticipate this by popping the loaf in the fridge for the final ten minutes of proofing/final fermentation, but to no obvious positive effect.

Final observations for next time:  I used yeast to avoid retarding overnight owing to time constraints, and I will now attempt the no yeast/retard route; I probably let it bake five minutes too long, being over-mindful of JH’s counsel that “[t]here is a great deal of water retention in this bread, so be sure to bake it thoroughly”; and a “maybe” swapping some, if not all, the water out for a dose of AYW or similar.

Lessons learnt, and a definite “keeper” as the taste was sensational.

Joe

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Duplicate post

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

What a beautiful image of the dough in the banneton. Did you proof it seam side down? If so, how was the seam located during the bake?

I’m so glad to read that everyone is raving about the taste. JH did something spectacular when he published this bread. When it comes to seeded bread, my search is complete.

Danny

Portus's picture
Portus

Hi Danny

... here's the top-down shot; a messy story, and only realise I did this now that you ask, hawk-eye ;-) !!

BTW, do you think this formula benefits from side-support, e.g. a bread tin or similar like your hammock-type, body bag accessory (name escapes me)?  That said, your latest shots of Alfanso's take on the formula suggest it is capable of an extremely strong dough, capable of standing without support, in the right hands.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Joe, it seems this dough is capable of extreme strength. I have used tins but they are not necessary. If you are using a mixer, you might try mixing by hand. That way the gluten can’t be hurt. My dough, using Alan’s method, was so strong, I had a little difficulty shaping it.

Use your same score (diagonal) next time with a stronger dough and you should get very round slices.

I hope this works for you. I will be trying this again.

Oh! The baker you wrote about is a Lekue. Abe turned me on to that. But it is good for very wet, super slack doughs, not this one.

Danny

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Nice one!

hreik's picture
hreik

That's a lovely loaf.  And yes, taste is sensational.

Well done!

hester

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

First off, a big thanks to Alan, aka Alfanso! I followed his instructions closely with few exceptions. See them HERE.

I used a 125% levain and mixed the levain, water, and seeds thoroughly. Then added the whole wheat and let mixture rest for 20 minutes. I thought that by holding out the bread flour, the whole wheat could absorb more water without the competing white flour. After the rest I added the white flour and mixed by hand to incorporate. Then rested another 20-30 minutes. Spread the dough out thinly on the counter and added 2 additional percent of water to the salt, making a slurry. This was spread on top the dough and worked in. Started slap and folds. The first 69 slap & folds were absolutely sloppy, but at number 70 the dough changed remarkably for the good. Completed 150 slap & folds and rested dough 20 minutes. When I started the last set of slap & folds the dough felt great - very nice. Finished the set of 150 slap & folds (total of 300 in all) and bulked in an oiled container @ 77F. After 45 minutes I did 2 letter folds (left & right - up & down) and returned to the proofer. Came back 45 minutes later, but I determined the dough was too strong for additional folds (see third image below). Proofed another 30 minutes and then bulk retarded @ 38F overnight. Shaped, proofed about an hour and baked @ 485F.

 

 

I scored this one diagonally in order to bake a more round slice. I got this idea from Brad, aka BreadForFun.

 

 

 

 Once more, I must thank Alan. He held my hand through the process and the results were better than ever. Prior to this bake I used a mixer. I now know that I over mixed the dough and seriously hurt the gluten. My mistake was trying to develop the gluten in the mixer. I think the massive amount of seeds prohibit this. In the future I will use time and folds to develop this type of dough. Hand mixing only for this particular dough. Hydrating the whole wheat only may have also helped with the total ingredient incorporation.

Danny

 

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Looks like it’s a lot more open than your other shots at this! Awesome!

Va's picture
Va

My takeaway is I need to learn how to slap and fold - to date I have only stretched and folded. I'm also appreciative of the difference the scoring technique makes. 

Your persistence and willingness to ask for help is a fine example to this new baker. Thanks, Danny.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Va, here is a lnk to a good video of slap and fold. https://youtu.be/cbBO4XyL3iM Keep in mind that different doughs will come together differently. The Five-Grain Levain didn’t  start to come together until around slap & fold 70. I could instantly feel the difference from 69 - 70. I know it sounds crazy, but try it and see.

Note - it may take more or less cycles, but you will feel in your hands when it happens.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

There have been so many outstanding bakes this past week, so rather than call any one or so individuals out, congrats.  Especially to those bakers who hadn't yet taken the Five-Grain plunge prior's to this bake, myself being a relatively recent "plunger" with this bread.

As Dan said, the concept was to enrich all of us through a mutual experience, and I think that he has been successful at fostering us in doing that.  

I'll recall a recent head of state who spoke of the successes of some and said, in part:

"look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. ...If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help....The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together." 

And that is what we just did.  It was a satisfying experience for me to see that Dan was able to build a better product, and that he felt my help was an element in getting there.

alan

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

I think i made the same error with my first try

Jeffrey Hamelman's picture
Jeffrey Hamelman

Hi Bakers,

I have to say, I am so impressed--blown away, really--by the dedication, inventiveness, commitment--and results!--from all I've seen and read here on this very interesting thread. Thanks and thanks again for all your inspiration~

~Jeffrey Hamelman

pul's picture
pul

Dear Jeffery

Mr Hamelman,  your comments are so flattering. Thanks so such for you contribution and inspiration. It really reinforces our passion for sourdough and great bread baked in every corner of this world. 

Cheers and happy baking,

Peter

Cellarvie's picture
Cellarvie

Thanks right back to you Jeffrey for inspiring us all.  How lucky we are to have such a master guiding us, and such a generous, encouraging, adventurous community to share share with.  Bravo all!

hreik's picture
hreik

This recipe is seriously sublime.

hester

Portus's picture
Portus

... "Bread" tops my list in the kitchen as well as for reading material on Desert Island Discs, though recipes for bread made from coir and coconut milk may be rather limited!

Thank you for being the star bellwether of our hobby!

J

TomK's picture
TomK

 

I had to do a lot of searching to find some rye berries to crack for this recipe! Most of my local stores have cut back on their bulk selections but I eventually found some in my county at least! So this was following the original formula: oats, rye,sunflower, and flax in the soaker. I used CM’s ABC+ for the white flour and sifted, freshly ground Red Fife whole wheat. Bran and excess rye went into the levain along with white flour.

 I made this as a one-day bread due to time constraints, no retarding at any stage. Machine mixed (Ankarsrum) and 4 stretch and folds during bulk ferment.

 I should have baked a bit longer but it’s just barely not gummy. The flavor is terrific, rich and complex, and a very moist crumb. The crust is thin, crisp, and glossy.

“Bread” doily in honor of Mr. Hamelman.

The loaves didn’t rise quite as high as I hoped, but I think that’s because I let the bulk ferment go too long, pretty close to doubled in volume. And I’m quite happy with the crumb. I’ll make another run at this recipe next week.

Tom

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Really impressive. I’d say this is about as good lift one could expect from 11.5 % protein. I generally use KA AP for most breads, but with large soakers I use bread flour. For awhile I did perceive the difference but now I really notice it.  

TomK's picture
TomK

It took me a couple of years before I could tell the difference 1% protein can make. I switched between Costco’s CM AP and CM’s ABC+ a few times. Fortunately I’m in easy striking distance to KGBS in Petaluma.

Tom 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Tom, they never rise as high as we’d like <LOL>

I was able to enlarge your crumb shot and your crumb is super nice for this bread.

I tried a diagonal score on my last bake.  I got the idea from Brad, aka BreadForFun. The diagonal score caused the bread to rise up and not out. The loaf is almost sausage shaped.

The image is Brad’s bread.

Dan

TomK's picture
TomK

Thanks Dan.

I may try a batard next week, I’m planning on a rerun of this recipe which is a little out of my comfort zone.

I love the flavor of this bread!

Tom

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

It is a perfect shape for sandwiches. 

-Brad

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Recommended accompanying beverage: A nice Belgian-style Amber Ale from North Coast Brewery in Fort Bragg, CA

Bon appetite!

David

pul's picture
pul

Now you're talking!

Cheers 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I can’t keep up, but want to I have learnt a lot from you all, wonderful stuff.

thank you every one of you for taking part! 

Look forward to any further bakes and posts - high light of my day.

Leslie

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Just found a small stash of the stuff. Could I use that in place of cracked rye on he next bake?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Carole, I think we would be hard pressed to find a cracked grain or seed that wouldn’t work with this formula. Through the years I have made many substitutions. All of the Five-Grain breads have tasted outstanding.

Not once can I recall when this formula tasted bad.

Dan

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I think you had a stroke of inspiration in proposing this bake. I'll give it a go!

David R's picture
David R

Less flavour and less texture compared to cracked rye, but certainly won't ruin anything.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Considering that I can't get cracked rye and swapped in bulgur for the first bake, i ve nothing to lose,  right?

Thanks for confirming that it should work. 

Keep on baking.

Carole . 

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

one of the times i made a version of this and it was perfect! So have no fear in using that. 😊

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have used bulgur in the soaker rather than cracked rye more often than not. It works fine. I might actually prefer it to the cracked rye.

David

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

I started out making this bread using bulgur, too. It was based on this post. It is also quite good and, as you say, the ingredients are easier to get. 

-Brad

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Yes, I agree that the bulgur works just fine in place of the cracked rye, was just wondering about pearl barley, since I've never done anything with it but stick it in the oven with vegetables…

Merci beaucoup!

Keep on baking,

Carole

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

even better when toasted!   I've used it lots of times and it's never been a problem.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I took a chance and tossed them into the soaker, but without toasting.  Will remember that for next time. Thanks for the info.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Don't worry--I had a carrot and a Persian cucumber first.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Here is my attempt,  I didn't have all the grains, so I substituted liberally, and forgot to add the salt to the soaker.  I almost never use anything but whole wheat, so it was a bit of a learning experience.  As to Dan and over mixing,  I have an older model DLX with 3 speed bars -  I followed the timing in Bread to the T - the low speed being one, and midway being two, and I don't think it was overmixed, if anything it was a little undermixed.  I then misread the bulk ferment instructions  ( again I was reading from the book, not the instructions here) and forgot to stretch and fold mid way through the bulk ferment. I did a stretch and fold near the end, and it showed good strength.  In the end, it came out  fine, though I am sure the taste would be much improved if I had the grains called for.  

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

It looks great.  Surprisingly open for a loaf so heavily loaded with soaker contents.

albacore's picture
albacore

For once, I slavishly followed the recipe - unusual for me! Even the 125% levain, a big change from my normal 56% - soup as Gérard Rubaud would have called it; I wonder if that was potage or consommé?

I went for the yeasted version as I was concerned that the retarded levain-only version might overproof in my fridge. The dough was a bit strange to work with, as someone has already commented: firm but sticky. Incidentally, I reckon what I would call the true hydration, including adjuncts and seeds, is 73.2%.

The bake went OK, but I am currently cursed by lack of ears in many of my loaves (I am currently trying to work out why) and the crumb was tighter than I would have liked. Nevertheless, a great flavour and a good excercise - thank you, Dan - and Jeffrey!

By the way, the coating on the loaf is chia seeds.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lance, your crumb is very good! This is about as open as I’ve seen for the Five-Grain Levain. Forget about large gaping holes on this bread. Next time forget the yeast. I think you will find the bread taste even better without it.

It seems a contradiction to claim a dough as dry and sticky. I think the seeds in the soaker make this dough sticky.

Great Job! I’d be thrilled with your bake. 

Dan

albacore's picture
albacore

Yes, I might try the levain only version next time; it would be interesting to compare the two.

Lance

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Lovely looking crumb!

Bon appétit.

Carole

pul's picture
pul

I have been retarding the bulk fermentation to avoid exactly  overproofing the final shaped loaf. Very nice results Lance.

albacore's picture
albacore

How much ambient time are you giving it before retarding?

Lance

pul's picture
pul

Last time I left bulk fermenting for more than 4 hours before retarding. The room temperature was around 18 degrees Celsius. Usually I let it ferment outside until some signs of fermentation are clear such as some small air bubbles, but I will not push bulk fermentation too far. After retarding for few hours in the fridge I will shape it and proof the dough on the counter for about 1 to 1.5 hours before baking. I have been using a cold oven to start baking, so the dough will still proof in the oven. Retarding after bulk fermentation has help me to avoid overproofing since my fridge is not so cold. 

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

What do you mean about using a cold oven to start baking?

pul's picture
pul

Lately I have not preheated my oven and the baking pot or the dutch oven. It is working fine, and it is convenient with good results. It works also if you do the standard preheating of oven and dutch oven. I think the baking part is the most straightforward process and can be done in so many different ways. My real issue is with overproofing the dough. I have had a lot of flops already and it is very frustrating to load a nice loaf into the oven just to find it flat after baking.

 

 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

You put the loaf in an unheated oven, and turn the oven on? Will you please describe what happens at which time intervals? I’ve never heard of this approach. 

pul's picture
pul

Correct

I load a cold pot or dutch oven with the dough and turn the oven on, setting the temperature to 230 degree Celsius. If I bake straight from the fridge, I will bake for 55 min, but if I proof on the counter after retarding the bulk fermentation in the fridge, then I will bake for 50 min. I do not even remove the lid and the color and crust are good. Typically my oven takes 25 min to preheat with the pot inside, so 50 to 55 min is enough time to bake if I start with a cold oven. This is all done for a counter top small oven, so for a larger home oven this process would have to be tweaked a bit.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Pul, I had a thought while reading your post. You wrote, “I have had a lot of flops already and it is very frustrating to load a nice loaf into the oven just to find it flat after baking.” Maybe the loaf is about over proofing during the long preheat in the cold oven and pot. To compensate for that you could try under proofing the dough in anticipation of an extended warm preheat stage.

Dan

pul's picture
pul

Dan, yes the loaf will still proof in the oven if not preheated. Due to my schedule I can only bake in the evening or early morning, so retarding in a fridge that is not so cold usually results in over proofing. I have had flops if baking in a preheated or non preheated oven. So now I am doing exactly what you said, which is baking a slightly under proofed dough that was retarded during bulk fermentation. I think I have better control over my schedule in this way. For your information, this has worked in both preheated and non preheated oven.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I'd love to see a side by side comparison with one loaf cooked cold and the next cooked hot.  I thought oven spring (1) needed a hot oven at the initial stage, and (2) was noticeably aided by steam in most breads.  Apparently this is not true.  Did you think of this on your own?

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

with much experimentation : http://www.thefreshloaf.com/search/node/cold%20oven%20vs%20preheated

And I am still too chicken to try it!

Keep on baking!

Carole 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Thanks.  I was aware of the cold v. preheated DO, but not cold v. hot oven.  I too am not anxious to try it, but I love the way Pul has managed to find the schedule that works best for Pul.  That's my favorite part of Tartine.  Chad would approve.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3
Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

That is perfect, Danni.  With such large bakes, do you mostly sell, give away, or trade?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

my posts that explain why I bake 12 loaves each weekend. I bake one for us, 3 for a local soup kitchen and the rest go to friends who give me a $5 donation. All of that money goes to the soup kitchen. I just got a tax receipt for 2018 and it was for $1536.00!!! So I get to indulge my hobby, my friends and the soup kitchen get great bread and the soup kitchen benefits. A win win in my book!

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

How satisfying that must be!  True, I did not know that, despite being an ardent admirer of your work.  I have not found a way expand my capacity yet, but I really want to.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

When I make a multi-grain loaf, I have found that I prefer to not soak the oily seeds since they don't really need hydration as much as the grains do, and I use cracked wheat and steel cut oats instead of cracked rye and use rolled rye in place of rolled oats to get the rye flavor.  The oat bran provides water holding capacity.  The seeds get incorporated along with the soaker contents but without any additional liquid.  I think there is a good argument in favor of crushing the flax seed by running it through a roller mill like you are making rolled oats, adjusting the roller gap appropriately. I have tried ground flax seed but in the process lost the texture of the flax all together. The millet needs to be soaked as there is not enough oil in it to call it an oily seed and it stays dry and crunchy if you don't soak it.  The soaker and oil seed quantities below are scaled for a 1170g batch of dough and I tend to go with no yeast and 5% pre-fermented flour.  The openness of the crumb is better if you use less (no) whole wheat flour and go to 80% high gluten white with up to 20% of T85 to enhance the flavor and darken the crumb while providing enough strength to get a relatively open crumb.  The sunflower seeds can be toasted in a hot air popcorn popper but the flax is too fine for that and needs ~15 min on a jelly roll pan in a 350°F oven with a minimum of convection.  Of course if you are going to crank up the oven to toast the flax, you might as well toast the sunflower seeds at the same time.

 

Dough:

40 g        starter

220 g      water

384g       soaker

100g       seeds

314 g      high gluten white

100g       T85

15 g        salt

 Soaker (384g net):

 6T (74g)          millet

4T (38g)          steel cut oats

4T (34g)          oat bran

4T (22g)          rolled rye

3T (26g)          cracked wheat

190 g               water

Seeds:

30 g                 toasted golden flax seed

70 g                 roasted sunflower seeds

 Sorry I can't participate in this bake as it would be both fun and tasty.

Doc

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your soaker information is interesting. In the case of Hamelman’s formula, how do you suggest the soaker be handled using oats, flax seeds, seasame seeds, and cracked rye. I am thinkng that the oats, because they are dry, and the cracked rye should  be hot soaked. Seasame put into the dough as is. And the flaxseeds crushed or cracked and added to the dough as is. Toasting optional.

Here is a question of great interest . This dough is described by many as both dry and sticky. That seems to be a contradiction of terms. I imagine that something, maybe oils brought in from the seeds are giving the somewhat dry dough a very sticky feeling. What would you attribute The stickiness to?

Thanks for commenting on this bake. Your input always garners great interest.

Dan

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Sesame is an oil seed so it doesn't need soaking, and the oats are a grain that just needs to be hydrated before it goes into the dough.  I put the rolled rye into the soaker and let them sit overnight, but I suppose they don't need all that time in the water to get saturated.  Hot soaking will speed things up somewhat but the heat doesn't last long and then you are soon soaking in room temperature water. The objective is to get the grains to be soft; if they are not, then let them soak longer.

As for sticky dough - I don't know what makes it too sticky, but I suspect that if you have exactly the right amount of water in the soaked grain and the right amount of water in with the flour, then after you either let it sit long enough or mix it well enough to develop the gluten, then you will have a less sticky dough.  Gluten is insoluble so that it acts like a waterproof sheet around the other things you have let fall into your bowl.  But until the gluten has fully encapsulated all of the bits and pieces, there will be sticky bits exposed. One possible reason (imho, unsupported by experimental evidence) is that the baker has not put the water where it needs to be and the stickiness is just a symptom that the water has not yet settled down - so there is a wet flour dough surrounding dry grain.  If this is correct, then the soaker should have more of the water and should be left until it is fully absorbed.  I have had tacky multi-grain dough but I don't remember really sticky dough.  Some high gluten flour (and/or perhaps a little fat) should help fix it if it is a late discovery.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I'd be interested to know if people who find this dough sticky are accustomed to working with 25% or higher WW or whole grain breads and soakers.  I love using my mill and the flavor whole grains add, so my standard bake is Hamelman's WW multigrain, which is 50% WW or whole grain with a considerably smaller soaker.  So this bake was right in my comfort zone.  I hope the next community bake takes me out of it.

Pre- and final shaping is always a bit stressful for me with these breads due to the stickiness, my only average skill at shaping, and having a limited surface area.  SD is sticky anyway, and whole grains seem to make it stickier.  Perhaps soakers do as well.  Awhile back I made the Vermont SD recipe after not making any mostly white flour recipes for quite some time, and the dough was really easy to handle by comparison.

As to the stiffness, grains vary, so I always have extra water in hand during mixing, and sometimes add extra water to my soaker if it needs it.  I'm trying test my skill, but also want the bread to last longer, which higher hydration seems to help with.

albacore's picture
albacore

I put it down to the Polysaccharide mucilage on the flax seeds. After all, we know how sticky and slimy they are after soaking in water. And also perhaps some stickiness from the pentosans in the hot soaked rolled oats and cracked rye.

The stickiness of the dough didn't make shaping difficult for me - it just seemed unusual in a firm dough.

Lance

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Good points.  But I find doughs with high percentage whole grains to be sticky even without flax or any soakers.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Lance,

I have always attributed the sticky/tacky nature of the dough to the soaked flax and oats as well. It is not at all difficult to work with with a bit extra flour on the bench.

-Brad

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Keeping your hands wet enough to assure a film of water on the surface of the dough is another way to beat sticky.  You can work it with a dough knife and a wet hand and then return it to a polypropylene (Cambro) tub or put a little flour on it when you have to set it down.  This is especially valuable if you are working on marble, granite, or Corian (any surface that is impervious to water).  I would not attempt it on wood, tile, or on a silicone mat (Silpat or equivalent).

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

I have used wet counters with rye doughs and have found it to be quite helpful. I have yet to try with wheat doughs, but always worth a try.

-Brad

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I pretty much followed the same procedures and formula that was used for the 2nd bake. I did sift the bran from the whole wheat flour and used it in the soaker. AND I managed to make a giant mistake AGAIN. For some reason I tend to get the ingredient weights from the left hand column (Total Dough weights) of my spreadsheet. I have done this on other occasions and I always get so upset with myself. Because of this, I added 284g of water too much. This brought the total hydration, including the soaker water to 128.6%. So an experiment was born...

I decided to approach the total hydration is a completely opposite method than normal. I added flour until the hydration seemed good. The final total hydration ended up slightly over 105% and the dough was kneaded by hand using the Slap and Fold method. For those interested I published a NEW POST on the subject so as to not dilute this one. The accompanying video on the new post is very interesting, IMO. 

Here are the images detailing the results of this wild goose chase. I think I pulled a rabbit out of the hat!

I sincerely appreciate everyone that has and will participate in the Community Bake. I know the thread gets long and unruly, but the information is worthwhile. I know that I learn so very much from these endeavors. I always end up baking better bread because of the input that I learn from others. Thanks so much!

Dan

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

A very nice result, Dan.

-Brad

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am diggin’ the diagonal slashes. I am thrilled to score in such a way that the slice is round.

Did you notice the crust (heavily blistered and shiny brown)? I used your instructions and proofed free standing in an air tight bag.

Thanks for 2 great tips!

Dan

 

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Pretty soon you'll be taking my job (fortunately I'm not a professional baker) ;~)

-Brad

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Dan,

I PM'ed you about trying the Abel Sierra "ziggy" cut since you are having a ball with Brad's sausage cut.  Here is my take on it.

I think that it is pretty clear by now that the 5-Grain is not one that takes a bloom easily and the most successful of those, by and large, have been batards which had one longitudinal score from tip to toe.  And even then there are only a handful from our 5-Grain gallery here that bloomed as well as we'd like.

My previous ziggy scores have had a significantly better bloom on them, particularly the sesame semolina, but then again it was with 2 distinctly different doughs.  A bit disappointed in not seeing a better oven spring, but knowing the terrain before taking the dive I'm not surprised that the bloom was less dramatic as my prior attempts.

The view from above...

and from the broadside...

An interior view of the dang thang...

And a snail's eye view...

To perform this type of cut I keep the curved razor blade in the drawer, instead opting for a ceramic knife. 

  • 20 min. "autolyse" with all ingredients
  • 150 French Folds, 5 min. rest, another 150 FFs.
  • Letter folds at 45 & 90, directly into retard at 90 min.
  • Retarded overnight with a late night divide, pre-shape and shape.
  • Scored directly from retard and then into steaming 460dF oven for 13 minutes, release steam & rotate.  
  • Another 18 min. and 3 min. venting.

I felt as though I should have pushed the oven time a few minutes further and garnered a darker surface, but I'll still call this one a successful bake.  And a fun scoring pattern to keep around for fun and games.  Thanks to good ol' Abel.

650g x 1

alan 

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