The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Community Bake - Maurizio's Oat Porridge Sourdough

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Community Bake - Maurizio's Oat Porridge Sourdough

The Community Bake (CB) is featuring Maurizio's Oat Porridge SD. The bread is considered special because of the Oat Porridge. Both the soft texture and taste reflects the Oats in fabulous way. The bread is moist and keeps for a long time.

For those not familiar with our Community Bakes see THIS LINK. The idea of a Community Bake is for those interested learning and baking as a group. Be sure to post the results. This way we can all learn together. This is not a bread baking competition, everyone wins! All bakers with any skill level are welcomed to join the bake.

Here is the link to Maurizio's bread formula and instructions. They are very detailed and easily followed.
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/oat-porridge-sourdough/

I have included a screen grab of my spreadsheet. The total dough weight is set to 1000 grams. For those that choose a single loaf, you can use the screen shot to calculate any size loaf you wish. Example, you want to bake a 700 gram loaf. Simply multiple each ingredient by .70 to find the proper weight. You could easily do a 500 gram loaf by dividing everything in half.

We especially welcome new bakers. This is a learning the sharing opportunity for all.

If anyone is interested in the excel spreadsheet, send me your email address via Personal Message.

The following are links to Past Community Bakes

Danny

Maurizio has agree to answer questions concerning his Oat Porridge SD...

In order to consolidate these questions and/or comments they should be submitted to me (DanAyo) via PM. This way all questions will be consolidated (within this post), if necessary condensed, and duplicates culled. We value his time and know he is a busy guy. Please do not reply to this post with questions for Maurizio. Use my Personal Message (PM) instead. There is a reason to the madness...

 

 1.    Maurizio, have you experimented with lower hydrations? If so, what effect does less water have on the dough?

 As many have discovered with a porridge-style recipe, when the hydration is too high in the dough it can quickly lead to a soupy, slack mess. When I developed this recipe I started out at too high of a hydration and quickly discovered it needed to reduce the water in the dough to accommodate the porridge added later. I never took the hydration much below what my recipes states now because I really did find the sweet spot with the flour used, but you could certainly reduce the water in the dough if desired. I’d expect more rise because there would be more strength in the dough, but I would also expect a less tender/soft result, even with the porridge.  I think reducing the hydration in this recipe would be similar to any dough except that the porridge itself brings a lot of moisture to the end result, this means you could get away with a lower hydration dough expecting the porridge to bring more of it at a later time.
2.   Maurizio, it seems that a common issue with your Oat Porridge bread is the sticky, slack consistency of the dough. Please describe how oats affect the dough and what can be done to produce a dough with more strength? This is somewhat related to the hydration question above, and I see a few things one could do to strengthen the dough: 1) lower the hydration of the dough, 2) use a higher percentage of stronger, high protein flour, 3) reduce the porridge percentage, and 4) mix/knead longer. All of these will bring strength to the dough and give you more rise, perhaps a combination of each of these, in small amounts, could lead to a stronger dough overall without any negative side effect of pushing one of them too far. For example, you could decrease the hydration in the dough by 2%, increase percentage of high protein flour by 5% to 75% (while decreasing the whole wheat flour), decrease porridge by a small amount (or not), and mix/knead until the dough is much stronger or give it another set or two of stretch and folds during bulk.  I find the oats hold on to quite a bit of water when they’re cooked, this water seems to get released in the dough during bulk fermentation as the dough mass ferments further. That’s one of the challenges with these types of breads: it’s hard to predict how the dough will turn out during bulk fermentation when the porridge breaks down and fermentation plays its part.

3.   I was wondering about how he would recommend to bake this in Rofco. Same temp as for the dutch oven? I preheat at 260C and then turn down to 200 as othewise scores can glaze over too quickly or burn the oats... I was in general wondering whether stickiness has to do with not baking long or hard enough? I hope this makes sense? What I typically do is preheat at 250°C for 1.5 hours. Then I load the dough, steam, and turn the Rofco down to 170-180°C for 20 minutes. This essentially turns the heating elements off, this way the top of the dough doesn’t harden too fast and it allows the dough to expand maximally. After that 20 minutes, I turn the oven back up to 220°C for 10 minutes to give the crust some color (the heating elements will have kicked back on). After that, I turn the oven down to 150°C and finish baking, usually 10-20 mins depending on the bread. Essentially I’m toggling the heating elements on/off to give color and bake the exterior, the thick masonry stones should be plenty hot by this time and will continue to bake the loaves in an ambient way to ensure they’re baked through. If you don’t bake this bread out fully you will definitely have a gummy/dense interior. This can also be a sign of under proofed dough and/or chucks of oats not fully incorporated throughout.

 

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

This bread is too good to settle for the results from my first attempt. Now that I have a feel for the recipe, with the communities help, I'm going to take this to the next level! Bring it on!

 

 food

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Befitting a lovely loaf. I've noticed a very flavoursome crust and you've got a lovely dark caramel finish on your crust. Gotta taste amazing. 

Bon Appetit. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

especially as you've said it was your first attempt! Yum....I see that you are on further attempts already and have to catch up...:D  Kat

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Let the learning begin! Smile...

Photo strictly to draw attention to the subject.

 food and indoor

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A tangzhong and porridge both bring moisture and tenderness to the crumb.

The tangzhong is easily incorporated into the final dough and is consistently smooth. The porridge is more difficult and is not at all smooth. 

I think the tangzhong bring little if any additional flavor to the bread, whereas the porridge introduces a noticeable increase in flavor.

Those are my present thoughts and opinions. Others may confirm or disagree. I hope to hear from others on this matter. I am always eager to learn something new.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

and could not have said it ant better!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. I love this bread making technique! I used it quite often in my bread making journey. My greatest successes coming with N.Y. Jewish rye and 100% rye bread. Smile.

 

bottleny's picture
bottleny

A better name for tangzhong (using Chinese pronunciation; in Japanese it's 湯 種 (ゆだね) Yudane) is water roux:

cooked at 65°C in the liquid which causes its starch to gelatinize. This mixture then holds moisture so that, when it is added to a bread mix, the dough bakes with a soft, fluffy texture and the bread then keeps for longer.

When making porridge, you're doing similar thing:

Oats are around 40–60% starch.

when we start heating starch granules in water, as we do when we cook porridge. The starch granules absorb water, disrupting the hydrogen bonds between their chemical components. This causes the granules to swell. Over time, this swelling of starch granules causes the porridge to thicken. This process is starch gelatinisation; for oat starch, it kicks off when the temperature reaches around 60˚C.

You can use different grain flours/grains for water roux. Different grain flours/grains can have add-in flavors into your dough. If using wheat flour, of course, you don't have additional flavor.

MangoChutney also regards porridge part of water roux category.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You wrote, “This process is starch gelatinization; for oat starch, it kicks off when the temperature reaches around 60˚C

If the starch ceases to gelatinize @ 60C (104F), is it beneficial to keep the heat below this temp for an extended time? Will this bring out more creaminess?

Danny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Here is the link to my trial run with rather a funny episode with a 'volcano eruption' from the pullman loaf pan. I'm not going to post the whole bake here as I intend to re-run the recipe, next time using the correct flour. Decided to use up some stock first so this one turned out to be a mix of bread, durum and kamut flour with a barley soaker. Very tasty indeed! 

Looking forward to all your bakes and watch this space...

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Good morning, Leo.

The soft texture and tender crumb of the porridge bread is very well suited to a Pullman loaf type bread. Kudos on your shape choice. The outcome of your tuneup bake is also very nice, the crumb looks very appetizing. Great job Leo, looking forward to your official CB submission.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

NOTE - I am going to add all of my bakes to this post in hopes of keeping things better organized.

Please read - - - - - - In an attempt to consolidate my bakes they are all posted to a single comment post. When new information is posted to this post email notifications are set out  and the post goes to the top of the “New Comments”section on the home page. Normally, edits and additions are placed at the bottom of the post. If an interested party wants to see the additions they must scroll to the bottom of the post. In order to make new information instantly visible on long post, the updates and additions will be placed AT THE TOP OF THE POST. This is not a great solution, but it is the best option known at this time.

The bread is super special in my book. The chew, texture, moistness, and flavor make it a stand out.

 - - - - - - - - - - Bake #4 - - - - - - - - - -

Bake #4 is complete and the crumb shot will be posted once the bread is sliced. I baked this one as a miche weighing 2500g (5lb 10oz). The weight after baking is 2006g, a 20% water loss. My first miche so I don’t know what to expect concerning the crumb. I had to bake the beast for 1hr 10min!

NOTE - TrailRunners use of Yeast Water was used for this bake. The bread has no sour flavor at all. ...a great idea!

the dough was laminated for strength. It seems to have worked well. Just ordered some large wicker lined baskets from SFBI in order to try my hand at a miche. I really like the narrow and high shape of these baskets. A 10” baskets was used for the 2500g (5lb 10oz) dough. The sized seemed perfect.

    

    

I used a dough binder and it worked like a champ. I didn't want the dough to spread out and flatten. Notice how there is no sign that a dough binder was used.

    

Grand Pa had to get her in twice!

    

All in all a good bake, but a bread this size takes quite a while to dry out the moisture. 

- - - - - - - - - - Bake #3 - - - - - - - - - -

The hope is each bake will show signs of gradual improvement.

  • For this bake I was careful to slowly cook the oats for the full 16 minutes. This time the oats didn’t stick to the bottom at all.
  • I also calculated an 81g loss of water during the cooking of the oats. Because of the evaporation during cooking, there could be a large variable in the dough hydration. If cooked hot, more evaporation is to be expected.
  • Rubaud was used after the oats were added. The incorporation took a while but the oats seemed evenly distributed. NOTE - none of the additional 25g of water was added at this time. I Waited until the 30 minute rest is complete and the last 25g of water was not needed. The dough was moderately wet.
  • When it came to folding the dough seemed wet to me. So I decided to do “letter folds” on the counter, thinking that this might dry the dough a little. It seemed to work.

Lessons Learned

  • For a more tender crust, bake at 465F then lower to 425F convection
  • Be aware of how much water is lost during the cooking of the porridge
  • Cook Oats on low heat for full 16 minutes to prevent sticking to bottom of pan
  • 8” banneton is perfect size for half of dough
  • My pullman is 13” x 4” x 4”. Half of the dough was not enough to reach the top of the cover
  • BEWARE of Sour Starters

   

- - - - - - - - - - Bake #2 - - - - - - - - - -

Both bakes resulted in great bread!

See image below. I failed to cover the porridge after it was removed from the cooking pot. The mixtured dried out quite a bit while cooling. Please don’t make that mistake.

NOTE - even though I used a young levain, the flavor of the bread was more acid than the first bake. I suspect the 17 hr retard increased the acetic acids. Even though I love sour bread, IMO this bread is best when it has no intense sour notes. Less retardation in the future for me.

The breads from both bakes tasted great.

An observation from the first 2 bakes. The doughs had a tendency to relax and not rise super high. Next bake may include a baking vessel that will be small enough to restrict the sides in hopes of obtaining a higher rise. Maybe a retangular cloche or like Abe, a pullman.

 

- - - - - - - - - - Bake #1 - - - - - - - - - -

HERE is a link to my first Oat Porridge bake. I found Maurizio’s instructions were precise and easily understood. But then again, I think that about all of his breads featured on theperfectloaf.com .

The major differences between the first and second bakes was the stage when the Oat Porridge was added. Since Maurizio mentioned some difficulty incorporating the porridge, I tried adding the porridge to the dough water and then mixing it with the rest of the ingredients. The second bake the porridge was mixed according to directions. Future doughs will be mixed according to instructions since incorporation went pretty smooth. I used the Rubaud technique for incorporation.

Danny

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Very nice crumb and crust color. Question for you, did you grind the rolled oats before cooking? I have a few ideas floating around in my head.  #1. I want to use the longer cooking steal cut oats instead of rolled. #2 Has anyone considered using milk in lieu of water to cook the oats in? Maybe 1/2 water 1/2 milk? Oh boy my neighbors are going to love me for all the gifted bread!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The oats were rolled in a KoMo Oat Flaker before they were cooked.

Water and milk sound like a good idea.

Dan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

your fresh rolled oats look more like the boxed steel cut oats I have in thge cupboard. How long did you cook yiour oats for? Uncovered and stirred or covered on low?

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I followed Maurizio’s instructions. Afew stuck to the bottom, though.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

More than a few of mine stuck to the bottom. Had it not been for my keen, beagle like sense of smell all would have been lost! LOL, I kill me!

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I am building a batch of starter to dry and store for what may come. I will have plenty to spare 18g in order to start a Levin first thing in the morning. If all goes well I can replicate Leo's timing. Smile.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Good morning, friends,

I mixed up my levin this morning for C.B. try #2. I decided to do the entire procedure using the Bosch.  I though the universal owners on the board might be interested in seeing the new solid S/S dough hook with  one piece construction  dough scraper. The new is on the left the old with the detachable plastic dough scraper is on the right. Have a great day.

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

1. I wound up not using the Bosch after all.

2. Made a couple of changes to the recipe. One by choice, one because I ran out of WW flour.

3. The steel cut oats were much easier to incorporate. I cooked them covered on very low for about 20min.

4. I was able to get more strength in the dough this time. However I did not get the same amount of rise.

5 The added strength made for a tighter shaping. The photo depicts the pre-shape rest phase. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your dough looks very nice and strong. Did the steel cut oaks soak up all of the 500g water? I’ve never used them.

Are steel cut oats similar to cracked grain?

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

what cracked grain is. The steel cut are raw for sure the cook time on the box calls for 25min. Yes,  the recommended water to oats is the same 2:1, I left them just a little wet like Leo said. Thanks, for the complement on the boules. I am very happy with how this bake went so far. I am exhausted. Between, my job, making the bread and drying the culture/using up the excess starter it has been a long day! Tomorrow,  I need to find time to bake the boules, make sourdough waffles and sourdough English muffins! Starter really multiples fast if you don't discard! Anyway I used it all up except for 60 grams in the refrigerator, nice small manageable amount! The batter and dough are already made and resting over night.

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

After spending the night in the refrigerator, the proofing dough looks absolutely fantastic!  This second bake most defiantly meets the goal of improving on the  previous bake. (In so many ways) I have to sit, think and I will share exactly why I think this is so. Smile.

 food and indoor

Kind regards,

Will F.

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Will, are you using 8” bannetons? I used an 8” and the dough filled the banneton just like yours. I think it is a perfect size for these doughs. The dough is well supported.

lookin’ goood...

Dan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Yes that is what they are. I just burned my arm and dropped the cast iron on part of the bread. I think I am just going to use the open with ice method. I'm too clumsy to be dealing with scorching hot cast Iron. I'll use it for the second loaf but then that's all.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Pie King, have you considered Graniteware? It is super light weight and according to my data they are more efficient than cast iron. Most people don’t believe that but I have the thermal data logs to back up the claim. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56822/cast-iron-cooker-vs-graniteware-thermal-data

A simple lightweight disposable aluminum roasting pan will also work well when inverted over the dough that is placed on a baking stone.

Cast Iron is super heavy.

Danny

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Very cool and cheep too!

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

Googled graniteware only to discover it's actually the "real" name for the old roaster I have sitting at the back of my pan drawer LOL!   Bonus!  I'll have to try it out and see how it compares to my Lodge enameled DO.   Just thinking, however, it's got ridges on the bottom.  Will that not affect the appearance of the final bread? - even if it will be on the underside? Edited to add:  followed your link where you asked the same question but it doesn't appear it was actually answered.  Would a couple layers of parchment paper minimalize the ridges, do you think?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Bernadette, I also was concerned about the ridges. But after baking dough (with parchment paper) that sits on the bottom, it doesn’t make a huge impression on the bread. You could cut a silicone baking mat to fit the bottom of the pan, but for me it isn’t necessary.

If you try the roaster, let us know what you think. A great benefit of the lightweight roaster is it will cool to the touch in about 5 minutes on the stovetop.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and looking foward to seeing those baked! I have some steel cut oats sitting in my larder and might try those after you mentioned them. A baker where I did a brief course a while ago recommended them for porridge breads but so far only used oat flakes or rye flakes...   Kat

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Scroll down just a bit more to see the end result of bake #2. On a related note, the neighbor I gifted a loaf from bake #1 cannot say enough about this porridge bread! Smile.

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Dan and also the one before..... You have been busy! 

Don't you find that you get an amazing soft crumb with the porridge?

I agree that when I baked porridge loaves before that  you need to watch the baking process and bake them 'proper' as there is a lot of moisture in there! but this also means in my experience that the bread lasts better.

I have to read again through Maurizio's instructions as I have used Tartine 3 and Vanessa Kimbell formula in the past and reduced water for both of them. I also was curious to see how Chad Robertson mixed the porridge in the recent video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4dyWZZVeWI.

Probably will have a go at the weekend... Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Because the oats hold so much water, they are baked to => 208F. The temperature for this bread is always tested to make sure they are fully cooked.

The crumb is unique and very soft. It has a great mouth feel.

Glad to hear you will be joining in...

Dan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

It's a pitty I crushed the side of this one. 208F it is. Thank you for posting that temperature. My bake was as follows:

20 minutes at 500F covered

10 minutes at 450F covered

15 minutes at 450F uncovered

Fyi, this is near perfect, any longer even 5 more min. it would have started to burn.

 

Bun # 2 is done to a turn.

 

 

syros's picture
syros

It’s my Easter this week so I can’t wait to try this - love Maurizio and his recipes! Will post results.

Sharon

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Wow Dan, you have really become a master. Beach wedding is over and I'm ready to get back into bread baking (probably slowly). I'm also expecting #2 so, all diets are finally off!  I better bake now since I'm sure I'll be too busy to bake later, you know?

I've been carefully preserving your dried starter and can't wait to get it going. Thanks for your generosity.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I like what you did consolidating your bakes. My question is. How did you do that? Can I delete previous comments and add them all together. Where is the edit button? Sorry to bother you, but your my only hope obi wan.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

MT, if you don’t see an “Edit” link at the bottom of your post you will need to contact Floyd and ask him to alter your permissions. Contact him via PM.

Dan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

My granddaughters would be thrilled with that one too. Kids love and appreciate good bread. Grandpa knows not to show up without a loaf in hand.

It's nearly double the size of anything I have ever attempted and would have to be constrained to fit in my oven. I prefer them low and wide and I even bought a Lodge 14 Qt. beast of a dutch oven to bake them in. It is 12" across the bottom and my basket is about 11" wide. Now if I could only find a bag to put them in. The miche recipes in Hammelman's Bread would be one of my suggestions for a future CB. Just sayin'

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am a “sourhead”. Most breads can’t be too sour for me.

BUT, IMO the Oat Porridge Bread taste best when any strong sour notes are missing. On a couple of occasions this bread was baked with a sour starter. NOTE - The levain was used young, but I suspect the residual acids were brought into the dough. And even though the fermentation times were not excessive the bread tasted too sour. For me, sour and Oat Porridge don’t make for the best tasting bread.

For future bakes the starter will be over fed and not allowed to recede a number of times to “sweeten” it up.

Question - I wonder if the LAB get super active in the presence of oat porridge? I ask this because if not careful  the bread has the ability to taste very sour, even when not trying to produce sour.

Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Maurizio has agree to answer questions concerning his Oat Porridge SD...

In order to consolidate these questions and/or comments they should be submitted to me (DanAyo) via PM. This way all questions will be consolidated (within this post); if necessary condensed, and duplicates culled. We value his time and know he is a busy guy. Questions will be answered at Maurizio’s convenience. If your question deals with information or images from an individual post, make sure to send the link to that particular reply. Please do not reply to this post with questions for Maurizio. Use my Personal Message (PM) instead. There is a reason to the madness...

The answered questions & answers will be published here and also at the very bottom of the first post for the Community Bake

- - - The format will be as follows - - -

1.    Maurizio, have you experimented with lower hydrations? If so, what effect does less water have on the dough?

 As many have discovered with a porridge-style recipe, when the hydration is too high in the dough it can quickly lead to a soupy, slack mess. When I developed this recipe I started out at too high of a hydration and quickly discovered it needed to reduce the water in the dough to accommodate the porridge added later. I never took the hydration much below what my recipes states now because I really did find the sweet spot with the flour used, but you could certainly reduce the water in the dough if desired. I’d expect more rise because there would be more strength in the dough, but I would also expect a less tender/soft result, even with the porridge.  I think reducing the hydration in this recipe would be similar to any dough except that the porridge itself brings a lot of moisture to the end result, this means you could get away with a lower hydration dough expecting the porridge to bring more of it at a later time.
2.   Maurizio, it seems that a common issue with your Oat Porridge bread is the sticky, slack consistency of the dough. Please describe how oats affect the dough and what can be done to produce a dough with more strength? This is somewhat related to the hydration question above, and I see a few things one could do to strengthen the dough: 1) lower the hydration of the dough, 2) use a higher percentage of stronger, high protein flour, 3) reduce the porridge percentage, and 4) mix/knead longer. All of these will bring strength to the dough and give you more rise, perhaps a combination of each of these, in small amounts, could lead to a stronger dough overall without any negative side effect of pushing one of them too far. For example, you could decrease the hydration in the dough by 2%, increase percentage of high protein flour by 5% to 75% (while decreasing the whole wheat flour), decrease porridge by a small amount (or not), and mix/knead until the dough is much stronger or give it another set or two of stretch and folds during bulk.  I find the oats hold on to quite a bit of water when they’re cooked, this water seems to get released in the dough during bulk fermentation as the dough mass ferments further. That’s one of the challenges with these types of breads: it’s hard to predict how the dough will turn out during bulk fermentation when the porridge breaks down and fermentation plays its part.

3.   I was wondering about how he would recommend to bake this in Rofco. Same temp as for the dutch oven? I preheat at 260C and then turn down to 200 as othewise scores can glaze over too quickly or burn the oats... I was in general wondering whether stickiness has to do with not baking long or hard enough? I hope this makes sense? What I typically do is preheat at 250°C for 1.5 hours. Then I load the dough, steam, and turn the Rofco down to 170-180°C for 20 minutes. This essentially turns the heating elements off, this way the top of the dough doesn’t harden too fast and it allows the dough to expand maximally. After that 20 minutes, I turn the oven back up to 220°C for 10 minutes to give the crust some color (the heating elements will have kicked back on). After that, I turn the oven down to 150°C and finish baking, usually 10-20 mins depending on the bread. Essentially I’m toggling the heating elements on/off to give color and bake the exterior, the thick masonry stones should be plenty hot by this time and will continue to bake the loaves in an ambient way to ensure they’re baked through. If you don’t bake this bread out fully you will definitely have a gummy/dense interior. This can also be a sign of under proofed dough and/or chucks of oats not fully incorporated throughout.
bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

I will have all day, tomorrow (Sunday), to work on this bread but will not be able to bake until Monday evening.  My dough will have to be in the fridge (currently set for 3C) for about 20-22 hrs.  Will this hinder the final bread, do you think?  It seemed to work ok for the Holiday Cranberry Bread, last week.  Will it make the bread too sour?  Not sure how the oatmeal/moisture will factor in.  Thoughts?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Bernadette, if your starter was not acidic when the levain was mixed and your frig is actually 3C, the bread will most probably be ok. Generally it is much more difficult to get sour than not.

For my last Oat Porridge bake, the starter was very acidic. I had been feeding 25% whole rye and 75% AP Flour in a warm environment. Since lots of acid was introduced to the dough via the starter, a cold retard of only 8 hours coupled with a high percentage of whole oats produced an Oat Porridge bread that was too sour for my taste.

The difference in temperature of 3C and 5C will affect the fermentation of your dough during retardation. At 3C the dough remains near dormant (very slowly produces acids) while 5C the dough has a tendency to ferment and produce small amounts of gas and acid. To get an accurate temp for your frig, place a glass of water in the same location where the dough will be retarded. After several hours or more test the temp of the water.

I am glad to hear that you will be joining the bake. Make sure to post images and document your experience if possible.

Dan

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

Thank you, Dan, for your quick reply!   Is it the rye that builds up the acid in the starter?  I have 2 starters in the fridge - a rye/AP (same percentages as yours), and a 100% AP.  Which one, do you think, I should use for this recipe, given the longer cold proof?

I followed the glass-of-water-in-the-fridge advice, posted on this forum, last week.  That's when I discovered mine was at 6+!  Lowered it until I got to 3C.  Another very helpful tip!  So much to learn, and read!

Bernadette

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Whole Rye has a buffering affect on the LAB. Buffering allows the PH of the starter to lower and become more acidic. Any whole grains, but especially Whole Rye will accelerate the metabolism of the starter.

A non-sour starter is best fed with white flour. If you don’t like a sour flavor in your breads, you do well to feed your starter white flour and maintain lower hydrations. Make sure to refresh before the starter recedes very much and don’t ferment too warm.

It is much easier to bake non-sour bread than sour. You generally have to work to produce sour bread.

Dan

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

Got it - Thanks!  I'll use the AP starter tomorrow, and save the rye/AP starter for other attempts.  

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Today was getting familiar with Maurizios's formula and I decided to be brave and stick exactly to his approach. I have baked porridge breads before but hey...one must try different things in life and stay open-minded...

First pre-bake observations and risk assessment (just joking):

1. Amount of oats and water are scary and makes a very high percentage of oats considering the amount of flour...

I normally just soak the oats the night before rather than cook them but will give the cooking at low heat a try. I also have some rye flakes and steel cut oats and might try those...

2. The seed for the levain is also quite low or is it just me thinking that....? I often use 1:2:2 or even 1:1:1 in my levains these days.......will this be lower in acidity before use then? I use an 80% starter nowadays but most cases don't worry too much and just add more water to make up the difference when I build a leaven.

3. I was wondering whether the 1 hour AL gets the gluten development near a WP or not...if I AL my dough 2 hours at warm temp I get almost there. I was wondering whether it is important to get some gluten development going before mixing the oats..as handmixed and no slap and folds or mixing otherwise (I am so used to Rubaud and slap and folds but assume that the dough is fairly stiff as  Maurizio says...mind you though 74% with my flours can be quite wet...I shall use my Canadian flour for this bake to avoid soup...ha, ha...).

I am a bit nervous here as in my experience stretch & folds often were often not enough to fully develop gluten....curious about this and in most cases in my bakes now I almost fully develop the gluten with extended AL and/or slap and folds...

4. Baking temp as mentioned already is something to watch and I make a mental note to myself  as in my experience the porridge loaf can end up a bit sticky (but the honey I used last time might have been the culprit too).

So, thank you for bearing with my deliberations and I will I am all prepped for tomorrow......

Kat 

Prep DAY

Levain was mixed and used when on the younger side too after 6 hours...I measured ph just out of interest and was ph5...I tend to find that if I let it go a bit further I get a ph4 with ph paper.

Although on the younger side it floated and I followed Maurizio's way of including levain in 'pseudo-autolyse'.

I was worried about the 'wetness' and used the strongest Candadian WW and White flour that I had in the house and therefore 700g water plus levain was not a very wet dough...So far so good...

Dough was a bit too warm at 28C but just left it at room temp to settle back to target 26C.

After 1 hour dough had developed nicely..not a full windowpane but gluten started to develop..

I added salt and additional 25g water at 26C and to be honest could not resist to include a couple of slap and folds just to get the dough a bit more developed before bulk and then after 30 min adding the porridge (which I made out of 250g rye flakes as 500g water and was a bit on the stiff side...)

Adding porridge was a hairy affair as dough was quite stiff and used my last 25g water and squeezed that porridge in.

Back into proofer at 26C and dough was not wet at all but I resisted to add more water as porridge might affect dough when it relaxed, I wondered...

Then I folded and squeezed after 30 min and then again after 30 min.

As dough has nicely developed I decided to change to 60min S & F in a row and then left the dough alone for the last hour before preshape.

Before pre-shape the dough has doubled ..with signs of fermentation. There are still 'pieces' of porridge to see...they are more fragments of rye flakes than lumps and will be interesting to see what they will turn into....

Pre-shape and 30 min bench rest

Final Shape cover with oats and ready to go into fridge at 4C  after 45 min room temp proof..

Dough was really sticky and I hope that I have enough tension. I used cinching for shaping.

So, early start tomorrow to bake and must watch out to bake long enough to avoid 'gumminess' as so much moisture in them....

I was surprised that I did not get a very wet dough and wonder whether this has to do with 

a. using really strong high protein flour from Canada

b. using rye flakes that absorb the water more???

Kat

Bake day...

After 14 hours in 5C wine cooler..

I think scoring was not an option and tried the scissor approach..holding the scissors almost parallel to the dough..

The bread tastes amazing especially toasted...There is a slight stickiness but I find that it goes away once the bread settled ....it does not feel gummy.....so wondering about baking differently to my normal loaves? 

Overall very happy and might try again with different flour in 13% protein region..and also explore more the stickiness element and why that may be.......  Kat

p.s. apart from one loaf, all have been gifted already!

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

Another newbie Q (at the risk of my blonde showing thru...), what does WB stand for?  

I feel like I'm doing an online course LOL!  Making notes like crazy and trying to trouble-shoot before attempting this tomorrow morning!

Thx!  ~Bernadette

greyoldchief's picture
greyoldchief

Window Pane

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

👍 Thx!!!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and sorry for using abbreviations...😂I hope it feels like a good course..and fun to learn together..this formula is a first for me too with so many oats... Kat

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

Don't apologize for using abbreviations!  I'll be doing the same once I know them!  Making a list...

David R's picture
David R

Steel-cut oats hydrate and/or cook much slower than oat flakes.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and just slowly cooked my porridge with some rye flakes that I still had. They come out a bit more rough but have worked in the past. I actually also have pin head oats. Are they the same as steel cut...? 🤔Kat

David R's picture
David R

I'm not 100% sure, but I think pinhead oats are a type of steel-cut oats that are cut finer than usual.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Those are just sumptuous! You see now why I scoffed at the idea of your quaking! 

Just lovely!

Keep on baking, 

Carole 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and must have typing at the same time as I just was oogling your lovely loaves on your blog!

I was struggling with stiff dough and never expected occurrence with porridge sourdough...so when I try next I shall rather use the 13% Marriages rather than the top notch 14.9% Protein Canadian flour...

It was good to try a different method helps to get more confident and not stuck in comport zone, I guess...

The NaCl with a very sweet tooth.....

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Kat you did a superlative job of writing up your process. It really helped me so much with the bake. Thank you for taking so much time to illustrate your baking thoughts. Your loaves are beautiful !  c

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I am glad, if it helped...Next time I must give that yeast water a go and thank you for explaining. Kat

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

let me know when you start your YW....I love to watch when someone has success with it. I do a double levain quite often so I get the best of both worlds. Just build 50% of what I need with YW and the other with my SD. It's truly a win win . c

Sadiye's picture
Sadiye

Tartine has 7% wheat germ in his recipe  whereas Maurizio omits this.  Does this make his recipe sort of a wetter dough?

Sadiye

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

This was my 3rd attempt.  The porridge was hard to get the right consistency.  Its better when it absorbs a lot of water, and looks wet, but there's no standing water in the porridge.  After that, I just had to get my times and temps right. 

 

The loaf spread just a bit. One of the challenges of working with this bread is the shaping.  The porridge makes closing seals and getting that really tight ball kind of tough.  I probably could have fermented for a half hour less maybe and gotten a more upstanding loaf.  

 

Still, it is a great, open and lacy crumb.  I'm glad I engaged in this challenge.  I don't see myself making porridge bread a lot, but I like the wet crumb, and it will be a great occasional change up from the normal 50% WW loaf.  

I'm excited to see everyone elses loaf! 

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

That is a very sexy looking loaf you made! Kudos!!!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

BakersRoom, your bread turned out very well, IMO. If you consider that the percentage of oats is 23% and take into account that oats contribute no gluten what so ever, your bread behaved well.

For those (probably all of us) wishing for a higher loaf, SEE THIS.

In my experience there should be no standing water on the cooked oats. The oats will absorb all of the water.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I am about to pre-shape mine and if it turns out anything like this I will be very happy..

I love the colours you get with the oats too... Kat

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

What a gorgeous loaf !  I also am glad I joined the challenge bake as I learned so much from all the postings . Your bake is exceptional. c

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Good morning, friends. I hope this message finds you all well. This morning while sipping my coffee I am doing some more reading about Porridge bread. I found Chad Robertson's recipe from Tartine #3 at food 52, (is it me or are his recipes all hard to follow?) Additionally I stumbled on a very nice Porridge bread recipe from The Laurel's kitchen bread book. The attached photo is an excerpt from the book regarding cooked oatmeal in bread. Thoughts? Somewhat unrelated, I have a cheese making class this afternoon, (a birthday gift from my daughter.) My bride and I will be making mozzarella cheese. I am sure it will go very nicely on a slice of porridge bread. Kind regards, Will F.

SeasideJess's picture
SeasideJess

Hi Will, I am eating this porrige bread right now and it is delicious! I have baked it as a pan loaf, as hamburger buns, and as a batard. 

Mauritzio's very helpful blog post about this bread reassured me that it is ok to add as much extra water as the dough may need. I'm currently baking it with thirsty fresh-milled 2/3 hard red winter and 1/3 Kamut khorasan whole wheat:  the red for strength and the khorasan for extensability. I'm using freshly-cracked oat groats, which also need a bit more water and time to become tender.

I read that cooked porrige provides a source of gelled water to the dough, which allows one to  increase hydration while keeping the dough easier to handle. Barms, mashes, and cooked flour are examples. I haven't experimented enough to have anything to add re flavor changes for cooked vs uncooked porrige in bread.

I hope you enjoy your mozzarella project! Regards, Jess

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Here's mine, with a couple of compensations for my weaker flours (write-up to come)

Can't wait to slice into one of these tomorrow morning!

Congratulations on all the lovely loaves that have been posted so far!

Keep on baking,

Carole

EDIT: Write-up and crumb shot are here.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

beautiful scoring Carole! Wrong choice to come and have a look as I am about to pre-shape and quaking in my boots!

They  look lovely, lovely and lovely again! Kat

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

of the oat-coated loaves? Your bread always bakes up beautifully, I'm not quaking for you at all!

Thanks for the kind words, those were about 600g final dough weight, still trying to figure out how I got there :-D

Can't wait to see your bake!

Carole

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I just dabble...🙄Kat

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

as to the difference in taste/texture with a cooked porridge vs. my usual "pour-boiling-water-over-oats" soaker. The suspense is killing me :-D

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Carole, I don’t have experience with pour over water and oats. I get the idea that Maurizio cooks the porridge in order to get the mixture to gelatinize. Cook it fairly low temp and slow (16 min). If done right it won’t stick to the bottom of the pot.

I incorporated the oats using Maurizio’s timing (right before the first folds) using the Rubaud method. It worked well for me and provided some much needed exercise :)

Dan

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Actually, I was addressing Kat, but yes, I did cook the porridge this time, to see how it differs from my usual method of pouring boiling water over oats the night before. My whole oat flakes were turning to concrete, so they did not get the 16 minutes of cook time that Maurizio recommends for his Bob's Red Mill oats. I'll be writing up my experience in the next day or so, once I've cut and tasted a loaf. Just wanted to post the photo and thank you again for organizing!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I think that with the cooking more moisture is absorbed or evaporates as I seem to get wetter dough just with the pre-soak....but then I can't remember whether I used the Strong Canadian too or maybe Marriages.

I will have to bake again with different lower protein flour and compare...

Kat

P.s. Looking forward to that crumb shot!!!!!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It seems that bakers who are not familiar with porridge breads are disappointed when their loaf does not bake up high and proud. When you consider that the same high 23 percent of oats that makes the bread taste so outstanding and the crumb so moist contributes no gluten what so ever, things start to make sense. We also wouldn’t expect a 100% rye to bake up tall for the same reason. IMO, the high percentage of oats is what make Maurizio’s bread stand out among the others.

In an effort to bake a great tasting Oat Porridge bread and also produce a loaf with more loft you may want to give one or more of these ideas a try.

  1. Baking in a pan or tin. - A note of caution about covered Pullman pans. Since the oats hold so much moisture, special care should be taken to make sure the bread spends time in the oven baking without the pan (naked). Otherwise expect a wet crumb. Believe me, I know. If I choose any pan in the future, it will not use a cover at any time during the bake.
  2. Using a “Bread Binder” Note - I really like bread binders because the breads maintain the free formed appearance.

By using a method of constraining the dough as it bakes your breads will rise higher.

The top image was baked in a pan and the lower one utilized a dough binder.

there’s more than one way to skin a cat...”

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

for an amazing sandwich loaf Dan!  Kat

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

your loaves are terrific looking and all the pictures you posted certainly helped me . I am glad I joined this community bake as I learned a LOT !  My loaves turned out great and I know what I will change the next time I make this formula. I owe the success to all the participants. c 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The breads chosen for the community bakes happens to be part of my regular rotation. I love the custard like interior and soft crust of this bread. It is always a challenge to keep tension in this wet dough and it seems to spread when put into the oven. I mixed these loaves in my Bosch to try to get the more gluten development and to incorporate the oats at the very end of the mix.

The oats are cooked like you would for normal oatmeal (which starts out at a 4 to1 ratio by weight)with the oats added to the cold water before cooking to get the creamy texture. 

I just got a USA pullman bread pan and was inspired by DanAyo to try it with this bread. I scaled it up to get 1300 grams of dough and also added a tablespoon of butter and some honey to the oatmeal after it was cooked. I also mixed it a longer time before adding it in. It ended up too wet to bake in anything else but a pan but the additional butter and honey really made a nice tasting, soft loaf. I did not overnight retard the pan loaf. Because this dough can be so difficult to get right, from now on I will make this in the loaf pan with the additional honey and butter and maybe even some milk in the oatmeal.

I am learning a lot from these community bakes so lets keep it going and happy baking!

Oat bread

porridge bread

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and a great idea from Dan with the tin. The square shape looks beautiful with the crumb and oats. 👏Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I stole the Pullman Pan idea from Abe! :D

But, there was a small problem with the first try. I don’t think enough moisture was removed for the loaf during baking. The crumb showed no appearance of gumminess, but when I sliced the loaf for freezing there was a slightly gummy trail on the serrated blade. After 20 minutes of baking with the cover on, I removed the bread from the pan and baked (naked) in the oven. The loaf registered 208F internal. Next time I think I’ll bake this one with the top removed.

Has anyone had a similar or different experience concerning gumminess?

Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

MT, did your 1300g dough reach the top of your pullman? The slices are standing nice and tall.

Also, let us know if you experienced any gumminess as a result of the pullman pan.

Your breads look nice. The pullman loaf and the free formed boule are a good illustration for the effectiveness of constraining (pan/dough binder) the dough. 

The large amount of oats really makes this bread a treat to eat. Even those that don’t cherish sourdough love this bread...

Dan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

It was my first time baking in a pullman pan. It was also the first time I added butter and honey to a sourdough bread and really liked the results. I used Wheat Montana AP for the white flour portion and I think next time I would use bread flour to firm it up a bit. The amount of dough seemed small at first but ended up nearly perfect for the pan. It proofed to within an inch of the rim and I covered it with my inverted roast pan on a stone to start (don't have a lid) at 425 for 15 then 30 minutes uncovered and then removed from pan and baked on its sides for 20 more minutes. I took it out at when it it temped 205 with the top being the least brown of the four sides, but bread doesn't seem have cary over cooking like meat does. It sprung about and inch or more above the rim

I think I won't bake on a stone next time because it was too uneven and caused the holes in the bottom of the slices and the top to be underdone. The bread is better and less moist if you can wait a whole day before cutting into it. I know, it sounds crazy!

It inspires me to see the different takes and the great results people are achieving in this forum. I'm gonna go make some egg salad which this bread screams for!

 

David R's picture
David R

Compared to meat, any kind of bread has a lot more air space inside it, and is lower in fat and lower in water. The density of the meat, combined with its high water and fat, cause it to stay hot after leaving the oven for much longer than bread does.

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

and I think I have oatmeal jammed up forever in my nails!!!  My doughs are resting after the 2nd fold/stretch.  Concerned about lumps of oatmeal that may/may not eventually get stretched out in the upcoming folds.  Is squishing the lumps allowed????  I've been doing that anyways, as they surface.  Just seems like the right thing to do. 

I ended up doing 2 separate doughs - one with my rye starter and one with my white starter.  Not sure why, other than being a glutton for punishment, I guess LOL!   Hubby encouraged that decision.  I think he just wants more bread.

~Bernadette   

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

in dough seem to not visible in loaf once it is baked unless they are very big, I have found in the past...

So I squeeze as much as possible but especially as I use rye flakes there will be visible 'bits' as long as they are not too big..I hope this helps...

I tend to make the porridge too stiff and then are faced with that problem too.....Happy baking..Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Squishing the lumps are good practice. I kneaded them in by squishing and using the Rubaud method for kneading dough. They incorporated very well for me.

Dan

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

I squished away whilst practicing Rubaud's method of kneading.  Watched Trevor Wilson's youtube video several times over the past couple of days.  Sure hope he doesn't get notifications of potentials stalkers!!!  Dough is currently sitting, countertop, for it's (my?) 2-1/2 hr reprieve.  Can finally have a glass of wine and make some supper.....

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

When I made the last loaf (cranberry one), I proofed for 22 hrs in the fridge, in the banneton that was linen lined/covered, and slipped into a plastic bag.  There was some condensation on the top and the dough developed a thin skin.  As far as my newbie experience/taste goes, it didn't seem to be a bad thing.  However, this oatmeal dough is a lot more wet.  Will the plastic covering make it harder to hold the shape in the end?  I just watched a video where it was suggested not to cover sourdough in plastic and the skin is a good thing:  holds the shape better and makes the slashing easier.  Thoughts?

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

At the stage of pre-shaping and there's no hope in heck that I can get anyway, shape, or form in this dough.  So...I skipped the next step, sprinkled the oats into the bannetons and dumped the dough in.  Letting it sit on the counter for 20 min or so and then I'll put them in the fridge.  Not sure what I'm going to end up with.  🤞 something magical happens while the doughs chill til tomorrow night. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Bernadette, I haven’t experienced your problem (unshapable dough), but a thought came to mind. You could retard the dough in bulk. Then when removed from the frig the cold dough should be more manageable and easier to shape and proof.

Did you use strong, high protein flour? I’d like to learn why you had such a problem. Photograpgh your problems and post them. The details provided generally helps.

For my bakes the last 25 grams of water that could be added to the dough when adding the oat porridge to the final dough was not needed. Also, I calculated a net loss of 81g water after cooking the 250g oats and 500g water. To get this weigh your pot, oats and water before and after cooking. I imagine more water loss would occur during the cool down, also.

Dan

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I once read a recommendation from Mini-oven to add dry uncooked oats to the dough to help soak up the excess moisture. I keep forgetting to try that but i have noticed that dry cranberries and raisins will stiffen up a dough.

My take on the porridge was using a 2 to 1 ratio by volume like on the directions of the oatmeal which ends up as 4 to 1 by weight. My original attempts at 2 to 1 by weight ended up like granola bars that were hard to work into the dough. I start mixing with a sub 70% dough and the porridge is added in as half of the flour weight and seems to end up at around 100% hydration like a lot of other grain soaker breads. 

I was a dedicated hand mixer until it came to slimy ones like this and others that have gelled up with flax seed soakers.

You could throw it in a bread pan if all else fails

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

Dan, if I do your suggestion - remove from fridge and attempt a shape, should I proof on the counter or back in the fridge?  Their current internal temps are 40F and 42F (one is place in front of the other in the fridge, which would account for the difference, I'm guessing).  I have also taken the plastic shower caps off the top of the baskets.  They both had moisture on them.  I'm thinking they could use some moisture loss.  Both are still snug in linen, however.

For the flours, I used Robin Hood Whole Wheat AP and RH Bread flour - both Canadian. 

I actually didn't add the extra water.  I weighed everything out after cooking the oats and the water lost was minimal (I kept the lid on the pot, tight, while cooking).  Because the dough was so wet already, I erred on the side of caution and skipped adding more water. 

Because I dumped the dough in the bannetons that were sprinkled with a thin layer of raw oats, that will get mixed into the dough if I decide to shape them this afternoon after all.   Think someone mentioned adding chia or flax seed to absorb some of the moisture.   Something to think about.... 

Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions, and most of all, your encouragement!

~Bernadette

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Bernadette, if your dough is super slack, it would probably be best if you shaped them cold and then put the straight back into the frig. Cold dough is much easier to work with. Once they are cold enough to handle bake the cold dough straight from the frig. If the dough is super slack you can skip scoring.

Try to post pictures. Do you know how to upload images on this site. I also wonder if you have the proper permissions to do so. Have you ever uploaded images to The Fresh Loaf?

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

sounds familiar and learnt this way about the huuuuuge difference the flour makes in my early days of baking.

So in my paranoia I used a high protein Canadian flour for this bake..both WW and White and my dough was almost too dry...what flour did you use?

Dan's suggestion of cold bulk it a good suggestion as the dough develops over time and is easier to handle when cold or bake in a tin....

I noticed that this formula relies on building strength with the folds and I am normally someone to build gluten more upfront via Rubaud and slap and folds combined with a longer AL at 2-4 hours, as in my experience my dough was not strong enough relying on folds alone ....so I was naughty and did a couple of slap and folds prior to starting bulk...I hope you managed to bake the dough... Kat

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

I receive far more than I give here at TFL these days because we bake the same delicious bread week in and week out with only trivial variation.  While such sweet monotony is unfailingly satisfying, nobody likes to watch reruns.  So I read, comment and philosophize here but rarely post a bake anymore. 

The foundation of our weekly 2 kg miche is 60% freshly milled, unsifted wheat with folded-in porridge.  Is that close enough to Danny’s current Community Bake to legitimately participate?  Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe maybe, but why not.  I irregularly record our products with photos and sparse notes, so here’s a little gallery of recent miches.

Formula and process.  Click on it for a working googlesheet.


The 60% milled grain is usually equal parts hard red and hard white wheat but varies by whim.  More variation finds its way into the porridge addition: home-flaked oats, spelt, rye etc. that might be toasted, prefermented, coated with Farina Bona or Alt Altus, etc.  A recently embraced novelty was culled from Kristen @ fullproofbaking:  Brown the fresh flakes in ~1 T of butter in the saucepan before pouring in 2x weight of 50:50 milk:water (often 100% ricotta whey chez nous) prior to cooking on low for 20 minutes.  I feel like I should be going to confession for using <gulp> butter.

We steam the oven very intensively for the first 20 minutes at 500˚F -- probably similar to the environment inside a DO.  I believe this contributes substantially to the malty richness of the products’ aroma and crust flavor that we and our miche quarter barter recipients enjoy.  The bread is not at all sour and obviously we prefer it thus.  Our 80% hydration starter is maintained on 40% whole grain and the miche has 15% pre-fermented flour.  The overnight retard is at 37˚F.  I believe these practices contribute to the low acidity of the final product.  Finally, our crumb (R Crumb!  Damn. Why do I only now hit on that as a TFL username?) is spongy soft but not so open as favored by current trends in bread porn.  That's intentional.  We prefer to keep the jam between the slices and not in our laps.  C’est vrais, the French rescued modern civilization’s laps from that scourge by inventing the longitudinally sliced baguette.  But until I swap in a bigger oven or get reincarnated as alfanso, the weekly house miche's reign will continue.

Happy Baking to all,

Tom

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and the more the merrier! They are quite an astounding sight and 2kg of miche must be quite a treat every week! And you manage to get so much WW in it...

I was intrigued about Kristen's approach with the melted butter and milk before.... Very tempting!!!

I am also curious when you mention 'crumble' porridge as this was the consistency I found when cooking my rye flakes. I worry about lumps but it can be more like the flakes do not totally dissolve...My bread is baking as I write and might find mighty lumps in it!!! This was the first time for me with such a high percentage in oats and I normally use a bit less.....

I normally AL longer even and was first time after a while doing 'pseudoautolyse' and followed Maurizio's instructions to see the difference and learn...   Kat 

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Hi Kat,

Thanks.  Yes, miches can be habit forming.  I'm totally addicted.  Something deeply satisfying about pulling them out of the oven.  Maybe if we cooked meat (which we don't) I'd be used to big turkeys and roasts and these would just be a loaves of bread.  Loaves from my smaller brotforms feel like dinner rolls now.

Do give Kristen's method a try.  The product is dangerously snackable.  Just the color is so appealing.  But aroma and taste makes it.

Now, perhaps I do porridge differently than others because it almost always comes out crumble-able.  One thing I've assumed and actually addressed:  When your flaked grain has some small bits and floury dust in it, that will form a glue and clump the product in cooking.  "Quick" oats are felons in this regard.  I get more dust if I don't hydrate/dehydrate the grain properly before flaking it.  If so, I remove it by giving the flakes a shake in a coarse sieve before cooking it.  But when for whatever reason it still comes out more solid than preferred, that's when I add some Farina bona or Alt Altus or just plain old granulated dry bread to the cooked, cooled porridge and de-clump manually (don't use cornmeal: It's a glue).  So yes, I dread clumps of porridge in a loaf.  My (barter) customers wouldn't approve! :-)

I seasonally dial up and down the amount of porridge I add.  In summer, when doughs are more active and I can safely do folds right out on the kitchen counter without chilling them too much, I crank up the amount of porridge I add -- double sometimes, compared to winter when I have to fold in the porridge in the fermentation box because any exposure to our as low as 55˚F kitchen air will stop it in its fermentation tracks.  In that cramped space, I can only add as much porridge as I specify in the formula I posted.

I'll have to go remind myself what a "pseudoautolyse" is.  I've played with various flavors of autolyse and can recommend, as a useful variation on the canonical Clavel version, Trevor Wilson's cold salted rendition.  That helped keep fermentation from running amok in last summer's warm (up to 80˚F) kitchen and I will rely on it again this summer I expect.

You have a salty username:  NaCl.  Intentional?  That's obviously sea water in your avatar.

Cheers,

Tom

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and must give that buttered oats approach from Kristen a go! 

My salty username is a total coincidence and you and Carole crack me up...Dabrownman has been calling me 'salty' for ages and was scratching my head...Makes me laugh out loud as I am really not a scientific person and my husband and son wonder what happened to me with my sudden desire to learn about science and ph meters and TTA and protease, amylase and hydrolysis too.

My son even got his GCSE textbook out to show me how titrations are done and warned me off them..'They are really complicated Mum'....and 'bread is ok ..so why...'. Common sense, I guess.

So, now I know and better get a message to Dabrownman that I cracked the code thanks to Carole and you!

Oh I am still laughing.... Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Very nice and nutritious breads.

I plan to give your bread a try in the next few weeks. I have never baked a miche. The idea of baking a 2k bread has always interested me.

A few questions

  1. How does the butter affect the oats?
  2. What size banneton do you use for the dough?
  3. What is the internal temperature of the baked loaf?

Dan

 

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Hi Dan,

Yes, baking a 2k miche is a indeed good idea!  Who among us doesn't need a weekly nano-spiritual experience to look forward to?  It's also the most efficient use of our limited oven real estate and electricity, or has always seemed so to me.  I don't know how home bakers like Danielle produce on the scale they do.  Maybe she bakes in a Gaggenau 333 😳.  Like I told Kat, anything smaller feels like a dinner roll now.

Kristen's pre-brown-in-butter porridge method elevates cooked oats from soul-satisfying-for-breakfast oatmeal into something decidedly finer, imho.  The familiar oat porridge flavor and aroma is replaced with a glossy, toasted-roasted look and flavor.  Here's a before and after of flaked and Kristen-ized spelt.

Sorry, those aren't oats.  Porridge isn't exactly photogenic and rarely worth documenting.  But spelt is born-to-be-flaked.  Always comes out great -- and therefore more photogenic I suppose. 

Kristen's method may also inhibit clumping by both removing the last of the flakes' moisture so that they absorb more of the cooking liquid as well as, importantly, 'sealing' their surfaces.

My SFBI miche bannetons are 10" across the top and 7" across the bottom.  That SFBI describes them as appropriate for 1+kg of dough means I've been overloading them for lo these many years.  But my ignorance has been our bliss. 

The internal temperature target for these miches is 205˚F -- nothing unusual.  Sorry I omitted that.  I no longer measure it.  One advantage of monotonous repetition is that I now just know when it's done.  And I don't like to see that curl of steam escaping from the thermometer poke-hole 😉.

Tom

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Tom I sure would love to know more about your toasted home flaked grains. I bought a flaker but haven't really tried using it much. How do you hydrate your grains such as the oats and the spelt ? I have read that one should simply run water over them and then let them air dry for some hours or else one can immerse them in water and dehydrate them but I don't have a dehydrator. I would love to explore the toasted grains that you posted...they look amazing ! Thank you .c

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

There are three steps to home flaking: soak, dry, and flake.  The first and last are easy peasey.  The second requires a bit more attention.  So...

First, soak the grain overnight, well immersed in water as you would dry beans for cooking the next day -- although they won't swell up like dry legumes, come morning.  Same for all grains, in my experience - including oats even though Komo and others say they don't need it.  Rubbish.  They do.  You need the grain endosperm to be fully hydrated and, in essence, mushy.  Otherwise you get bits and dust and cracked grain.

Second, the next day, you drain off the water and allow the seed coats to dry down just enough to not stick to the flaker's rollers, or to each other during rolling for that matter.  This is the delicate step, if you can all it that.  Too dry and you're back to the brittle state of unsoaked grain.  Too wet and they gum up the flaker's rollers.  I use a dehydrator, blowing unheated air on them for 2-4 hours.  You could do it in a convection oven set on the lowest heat setting - or convection with no heat at all, which my oven allows.  I judge readiness by feel:  they should still be heavy from having saturated endosperms yet still feel totally surface-dry to the touch, not sticking to each other and readily sliding around on the dehydrator sheet.  Better to err a bit on too dry versus too wet.

Last step is obviously to flake them.  It's a pleasure with properly hydrated grain.  They silently squeeze through without complaint.  Spelt is far and away the most gratifying.  I don't know why.  Maybe it some gives up its seed coat moisture way more readily than its endosperm moisture and is always just right for perfect flaking.  Or maybe I've just been lucky with it.

One last note:  Flaking raw, unsoaked grain has its uses as well.  I personally enjoy running raw unsoaked brown rice through my flaker and cooking in 2x water that's been seasoned with salt plus any of a rainbow of options:  Saffron, fines herbes, powdered bottarga, fish sauce, curry powders, mire poix, stock on hand - you name it.  It comes out like stiff (storebought - not home cooked) polenta.  Slice-able and excellent under stews and curries.  Not a stand-alone primo piato but excellent as an accompanying starch, flavored to compliment or expand on what tops it.  YMMV.

The YouTube link I provided to fullproofbaking has everything I know about butter-toasting them prior to cooking -- that's where I picked it up.  Kristen describes it in the context of an unusual pea-flower pigmented swirl bread she describes in the video.

Happy flaking,

Tom

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

i read your process out loud just now to my husband whilst having wine , cheese, a lovely Brie,  and a French sausage as we sit at sundown in our gazebo. He said “ you need to get a dehydrator”! Yes... I’ve wanted one for years. I shall report back. Do you have a recommendation on brand/ type of dehydrator? Thank you Tom for writing out the process. c

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

What a poster child you are for the miche!!  Those are extraordinary . I don't have a banneton that big but your miches sure make me want to get one !  I have copied out your process and intend to try it. I'm not on Instagram but will try and locate Kristen's info. Thank you for posting such great details. c

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Super nice. 

How does this bread taste when compared to your other oat breads?

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and next time I would probably go with a 13% protein flour rather than the Canadian and see how much this would make a difference. I need to compare baking heat as possible should get more water out of the bread...saying that today is day 1 after baking and no stickiness at all left...I really is a natural preservative and the bread gets better as time goes by... Kat

bbeirnes's picture
bbeirnes

As requested, here's some pics of my doughs (1 white starter, and 1 rye starter).  They've been chilling in baskets, in the fridge, since late yesterday.  With your advice, I reworked each one this afternoon, 2x each, putting them back into the fridge for 1-1/2 hrs between.  The dough with the rye starter was noticeably tighter than the white but neither could hold much shape.   The more I worked each one, the stickier it got.  Is that good or bad?

White starter:  Dough was in linen, in this plastic "basket".  Spread was within seconds of being dumped out.

Folded loose oatmeal into dough.  Started getting pretty sticky at this point.

Rye starter dough, after 2nd cold fold today.

the stretch of the rye starter after 2nd cold fold

Both doughs are back in the fridge, in bowls rather than baskets.  I hope to do one more fold tonight but am in the process of colonoscopy prep so that will depend on circumstances.  Had hoped to bake today but it looks like that's going to have to wait until tomorrow.   I'm not ready to give up on this yet :)  

~Bernadette

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

the extensibility of your dough is beautiful !  It's purely amazing the different results everyone got. It surely has to do with the actual oats and flours themselves and of course everyone's levains are totally different. Sure makes it interesting !  I'm glad I tried this community bake. c

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I have been wanting to make a porridge bread  , I made  the fermented oats as a soaker bread  a while back. I read all of the entries on the thread before reading the blog post for Maurizio's bread and then reading the formula several times and making notes of what folks said. 

I must say I have really benefitted from all the great comments and pictures. 

I weighed out everything last night and made  my levain  yesterday afternoon  and refrigerated it. This morning I quickly cooked the oatmeal porridge in my double boiler. It's the perfect way to cook oatmeal and polenta ...easy peasy and no stirring to speak of and no sticking !  I cooked the porridge in whey left from draining homemade yogurt to make yogurt cheese. My levain was made with my Apple Yeast Water and bread flour , only  the one feeding of freshly milled Kamut and Bread Flour and YW at 100% hydration to arrive at 150g. It rose up beautifully in a couple hours .  I milled Kamut as my whole wheat flour because it has such an amazing gluten development while autolysing. 

I shorted the water 60g from the formula as written since everyone talked about how gloppy it was, thus 690g liquid of which 100g was more of my Apple Yeast Water to insure good rise and for its dough conditioning properties and fragrance. I mixed the liquid with the slightly cooled porridge to loosen it up and then added the levain and the salt and all the flour. So not a true autolyse but it works so well as far as incorporating all the ingredients and greatly decreases the hands on time. I left this covered in the oven with the light on and the door ajar for several hours while I went to the gym and did errands. 

When I got home I was amazed at how the dough felt when I did turns in the bowl with a large rubber spatula. It didn't stick to the bowl at all and  I simply lifted and turned round and round and round she went. I then decided to attempt a stretch and fold on a well floured board. Hm....maybe a bit premature LOL but hey one has to try. I had heavily floured the wood table so it didn't really stick but it wanted to !  I also floured the top so I could grab it but decided to use a pastry scraper and that worked great. I did several folds and then returned the dough to a calibrated container that was sprayed with PAM. I waited 45 min and dumped out the dough on the floured board again. What an incredible difference. I was able to do 2 S &F's easily with no sticking. I dusted off all extra flour , as I had done before, and returned the dough to the container  in the oven with light on door ajar. That's where I am now. I have a few minutes left before I dump it out again...I am waiting a full 45 min. I shall update as the time passes and will post photos to this thread by editing this so it will all be in one place. 

 Fantastic rise in the oven! Baked 500 covered 15 min and 475 uncovered 20 min internal temp was 210. Will cut a loaf at lunch. 

 

 

The loaves rose mightily in the fridge so I’m going to bake now this morning before I go out. They’ve been retarding 16 hrs 

 

It was zooming along so shaped and into the fridge immediately.  

 

After second single S&F—-whoa soooo poofy and gorgeous dough! Will leave till a full 50% rise then shape and in to the fridge the 3 loaves go.  

After one set of s&f on the board and a 45 min rest, ready for second set:

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and one day I must succeed in making yeast water and bake with it. I tried last year with blackberries but did not succeed...so this year with berry and fruit season looming I must try again.  Kat

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

it was an amazing dough and I’m glad I had so many talented bakers before me record their efforts. 

As far as Yeast Water the quickest most reliable way is a Granny Smith Apple and a nice warm spot ... 80-90 F. The two most important components are warmth and air. Yeast is everywhere so that’s not a problem. Keep sterilized glass jar covered very loosely and open it several times a day and stir vigorously. That’s it. You will have fizzy cider fragrance in a few days. After you have assured yourself it is a viable yeast water, mix it 50/50 with flour and wait a few hours for bubbles, you can bake with it. You can then convert a few grams of it to any other fruit/ vegetable you want. Keep the Apple going as a base YW. Make sure when you store it that you keep a fresh piece of orange peel in the water and replace whenever you replace the fruit. It keeps the acidity up and the wayward stuff away😊. Good luck

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Genius! Yeast water. What a great way to insure the bread doesn’t have any sour flavors. I wrote before that Oat Porridge and sour don’t compliment each other in my opinion.

I will definitely have to give this a try. I love sour bread, but not with oat porridge.

Danny

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

never been called that before LOL !  When I saw your comments about the sour taste I knew then if I was going to do the bake I would definitely use YW to cancel the sour. I will report back after the bake tomorrow . I can't get to it till the afternoon so it is going to be a 20 hr  cold ferment...or at least as cold as any of my fridges get. Judging from the incredible poofy dough and the gluten development with so little handling plus the fragrance I am quite hopeful it will be a special  bread. 

Thank you Danny for promoting the community bake. c

pmccool's picture
pmccool

There have been a number of small projects here at Haus McCool, mostly revolving around spackling, sanding, and painting.  Those finally subsided enough this past weekend that I could turn my attention to Dan's community bake. 

Readers Digest version: I should have kept painting.  

The first small cloud on the horizon appeared when I checked the pantry and found instant rolled oats, old fashioned rolled oats, and steel cut oats but no regular rolled oats.  No biggie, I thought.  Use the old fashioned oats; they will soak up some of the extra water people have been talking about.  

Oats, water and salt went into the pot and the porridge began to cook on medium low heat, just like Maurizio said.  About 5 minutes in, the porridge starts to firm up, losing any resemblance to “creamy” or “loose”.  What to do, what to do?   I added water to soften it up again.  And again.  And again.  All the while, I’m having deja vue all over again.  This looks way too much like my misadventure with Leader's Auvergne Rye some years back while chasing a textural description.  Finally, at about 14 minutes I declared it “done” and set it to cool.  

At this point, a thinking person would have weighed the porridge to see just how much water it contained.  I didn’t think to do that.  

I carefully weighed and mixed the autolyse ingredients and set those aside.  

An hour later, I realized that I hadn’t reserved any water for mixing in the salt. No problem.  This dough is so wet that the salt dissolved readily when I mixed it in.  

Then I worked in the porridge and things got really interesting.  You know how a really wet dough glistens?  Yeah, that's what this stuff did.  And it poured out of the bowl like it was ciabatta.  Scratch that.  I’ve seen drier ciabattas.  So I floured the counter heavily for each stretch and fold, hoping that the additional flour would absorb some moisture.  Apparently the moisture absorbed the flour instead because the dough never lost that wet sheen.  

I’ve wrangled some wet doughs before.  This was like wrestling with an octopus that had been dipped in superglue.  It spread. It grabbed. It held on and refused to let go.  After each series of folds, I scraped gobs of it off my hands back into the bowl.  

Finally, the folds were completed and the dough was left to bulk ferment for three hours before I went to bed.  At that point, I put it in the refrigerator to cool it’s heels until morning.  

To be continued...

——————————————

And now, the rest of this dismal tale. 

The dough came out of the refrigerator the next morning.  Since it showed no signs of expansion, I put it in the proofer for several hours before shaping.  

Shaping.  Ah, shaping. 

The dough was still pourable as it oozed from the bowl to the heavily floured counter top.  And it still had that wet sheen.  Hoping that it might help, I gave the mass (mess?) a set of letter folds before dividing.  The dough was not impressed.  I divided it anyway.  Then I attempted to get it into a boule shape.  There was more attempting than there was boule, when all was said and done.  And I won’t repeat here what was said.  Eventually, the two blobs were rolled in oats and placed in bannetons.  

A few hours later, they looked as though they were far enough along to bake. Once the steam pan and baking stone were preheated with the oven, I tipped the first loaf out of the banneton onto parchment, which was placed on a flat baking sheet that I used as a peel.  Although I attempted to slash the loaf with a razor blade, the gooey dough with a covering of rolled oats remained as unimpressed as it had been with my shaping.  

Since the ooze was moving toward the edge of the parchment, I quickly maneuvered it onto the stone.  As I pulled away, so did the dough.  One edge had gotten past the parchment paper and adhered to the peel.  So now I’m standing there trying to get the dough off the peel while not pulling the “loaf” off the stone, all while steam is boiling away.  It probably only took a few seconds but seemed like an eternity.  Once the offending rope of dough was detached from the peel, it flopped down on top of the loaf.  

 

 Yeah, that ugly thing at the upper left.  That’s what stuck to the peel. 

His accomplice turned out a bit better in the looks department:

Looks aren’t everything, though.  Since these aren’t intended to be flatbreads, height matters, too. 

Oddly enough, the mangled loaf, above, and the non-mangled loaf, below, had approximately equal amounts of oven spring.  Which is to say, very little.

 

Each was baked to an internal temperature of 207-209F.  I had hoped that baking them on a stone, instead of in a Dutch oven, would help to dry some of the extra moisture.  Let’s just use that thought as a segue into the crumb shots.  Mangled loaf first:

Next, the non-mangled loaf:

The crumb in each was wet and gummy, leaving a heavy coating on the knife, although it isn’t readily visible at the tip in the photo above.  It was so gooey as to be inedible.  The crust tasted good but even toasting wouldn’t have saved the interior.  I think this might be the only bread that I’ve ever thrown out uneaten.  

In retrospect, I added far too much water to the porridge.  I had suspected as much while I was making it but wanted to remain true to the described consistency.  Now that I’ve learned that lesson a second time, I won’t repeat it a third. 

My starter may also have been less active than it needed to be.  It had one refresh after being refrigerated for three or four weeks.  The refresh appeared to ferment alright, so I hadn’t anticipated any problems with it.  

For a future bake, I might give the oatmeal an overnight cold soak and then cook it briefly to gelatinize the starch.  I would definitely cut back on the water in the dough itself.  It would be much easier to add water in the later stages if the dough needed it. I am curious as to whether Maurizio’s flour is substantially more thirsty than the bread flour I used. 

Since I made this bread and made the decisions and choices along the way, I take full responsibility for the outcome.  I have one observation to share about recipe structure, though: only list the ingredients that are required for each stage.  Don’t ask the reader to hold back or reserve part of the ingredients in a list for use later.  

Based on my experiences with developing recipes for my students, I would restructure Maurizio’s recipe thusly:

  1. Levain ingredients
  2. Levain process
  3. Porridge ingredients
  4. Porridge process
  5. Autolyse ingredients 
  6. Autolyse process
  7. Initial main dough ingredients 
  8. Initial main dough process
  9. Final main dough ingredients (salt, water)
  10. Final main dough process

That gives readers discrete steps with only the ingredients required for the step they are focused on.  It seems a small thing but removes some of the possibility for error.

From what I’ve seen in other posts, this looks like it ought to be a good bread so I will give it another shot after I’m done licking my wounds.

Paul  

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It seems like a lot of people struggle with wet dough for this porridge bake. I have been very fortunate in this area. I think it may be as you wrote, the oats used. I am rolling my own oats, but not sure if that is what makes the difference. My doughs are reasonably workable. Old fashioned oats seems like a good choice. It seems they are dry and would soak up the water, but who knows? 

A Thought - I wonder if we upped the whole grain, how that would affect the dough?

Maurizio will be fielding questions HERE. 2 questions posed about the hydration and also the dough strength are posed. I look forward to reading his take.

I think most everyone is very impressed with the flavor, texture, and moistness of the bread.

Thanks for joining in. I look forward to seeing your progress.

Danny

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Been waiting for the next installment.  Your breads always turn out so well. 

Carole 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

sharing your tale and it will be so useful for many to read whilst a 'painful' experience for the baker...

This has happened to me before with my British flours and American formulas and in hindsight I used some strong Canadian flour that I had in my larder...I also probably cooked my porridge too much so that I lost some of the water in steam...and like Leslie...I found that my dough was almost too stiff. I also used rye flakes and wonder whether the type of oats we use, influences the wetness of the dough.

Kat

 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

might be thirstier than the bread flour I used, much of the problem has to do with how much water I added to the porridge so that it aligned with Maurizio's description of its texture.  It was just too, too much water.  

That said, a future will attempt will back down the hydration of the dough itself by at least 5%.  If necessary, I can work more water in much more easily than having to wrestle with a super-hydrated dough.  And I will stop cooking the porridge at the point the starch begins to gelatinize, rather than trying to reach the 16-minute mark.  That will keep me within the described parameters while avoiding over-hydration.

From my two years in South Africa, I have an appreciation with how different flours produce different results.  One of my earlier activities after settling in was to bake a simple bread at differing hydration levels to assess how the flour behaved.  That was an interesting experiment.

Paul

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Paul, your humor was entertaining, but your humility is inspiring! Thanks so much for posting a bake when things go really wrong. You know, “the good, the bad, and the ugly”. Every single one of us knows that feeling. Bakers that have baked for years know that things don’t always go as expected, but it is easy for those new to bread to think they are failures. They may question if they will ever perfect the skill set.

So for everyone that feels dejected, keep on, keeping on... You will be glad you did.

When you mention the ingredients necessary for each stage, is this a good example? Maurizio show the dough water as 750g in the list, and then in the instructions we are told to hold back 25g water for the salt and 25g for possible moisture for the addition of porridge? I have tunnel vision and struggle with instructions at times. I messed up and added 750g water to the mix, failing to hold any back. If you take a look at my spreadsheet in the very first post, you’ll notice how I elected to break the water down into 3 separate entries for the dough. That works for me.

I find it difficult to read instructions that don’t follow my convention. My rationale may not be perfect or even correct, but it caters to my thought process and works for me. I wish there was a standard, similar to baker’s percentages that was followed by all. Some formulas are difficult to fit a given format. In the case of this particular bread the porridge, IMO, makes hydration difficult. Hamelman’s soakers and his handling of the seed culture are a few examples. The BBGA tried to establish that, but I guess we all think and process differently. 

OH! most of the images in your post are not visible to me. I’d really like to see the images of your humorous narrative.

Danny

pmccool's picture
pmccool

As to good, about all I can offer is that it smelled good.

WRT your question about ingredients, yes.  That bear bit me, too.  At first, I was slightly annoyed with myself since I had read the instructions more than once and still managed to dump all of the water in instead of withholding some.  Then I was annoyed with the formula structure, since there wasn't a compelling reason to create an opportunity for error.  It's kind of like some recipes that tell you to save some of the levain as the mother for your next bake.  Uh-huh.  If you forget that part, it's no fun watching all of your levain baking in the oven.

So, based on my own experiences and on seeing how my students have sometimes struggled to understand my crystal-clear (or evidently not so crystal-clear) instructions, I now break every recipe I write into its component steps.  There are no "divided" or "reserve for later" notations.  If an ingredient is needed for the step, it is listed.  If it isn't needed until a later step, it doesn't get mentioned until that step.  That seems to work for just about everybody, although some folks are really creative when it comes to making mistakes.

I don't know why some of the pictures don't display.  The post (when in edit mode) tells me that they have been uploaded.  Maybe they're embarrassed to be seen in public.

Paul

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

since my loaves came out nicely and the oatmeal part worked as well I will offer up a couple suggestions for your future bake of at least this formula. 

If you use a double boiler the oatmeal consistency is great and requires little to no stirring and won’t be sticking and no need to add more water. In combining the ingredients if you know you are using “x” amount of flour and you have cooked the correct amount of porridge then start the process by putting all the porridge and all the levain and the salt together . Add 1/2 the water called for and begin stirring in your flour mix. As you need only enough water to keep it moist add it and stop regardless of how much water is left in the container of that “ last half” of water. I do this on all bakes till I’m sure of the hydration my circumstances require. The formula won’t be messed up as your flour/ salt/ levain are measured according to the proscribed formula. The water doesn’t have any bearing on the outcome as long as it feels right to you. That of course is the key you and I and most experienced bakers know what feels right. Stop there and make a note of how much you shorted the water. Proceed to finish . I’ve never had a bake turn out badly from too little water as I add till it handles well and stop. I have had doughs several times where I had to add extra flour which can change the dough formula substantially WRT salt etc. Water is the one ingredient you can play with . 

I have a YW levain rising now and I flaked barley and spelt both last night so I will be reporting back as to how this porridge bread does for me . good Luck Paul! 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Thank you!  I'll bear it in mind when I take another run at this bread.  

Since I made a batch of Hamelman's 5-Grain bread (the yeasted version) this weekend, it may be a week or two before I come back to Maurizio’s porridge bread.  

Paul

hreik's picture
hreik

no bread beats Hamelman's 5 Grain levain.  At least I've not tasted one I like as well.  I have a Kamut / Bread Flour bread that I love for a plain loaf but that 5GL recipe is unparalleled imho.

hester

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hester you and I have the same taste buds! Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain can’t be beat by any bread I know. I also like Teresa Greenway’s SFSD and Maurizio’s Oat Porridge. Oh, Ciabatta.

hreik's picture
hreik

Abe is doing Hamelman's Swiss Farmhouse bread, which requires a yeast water.  Think about that for a Community Bake sometime.  Take a look at it.... I have notes in my book that way back when it was my husband's favorite.... b/f I got him acclimated to SD.  But I think he'd still love it.  I made it with yeast water and no raisins or nuts and it was still delicious... no acidity whatsoever.  Take a look

hester

hreik's picture
hreik

like really well.  More please.

 

hester

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I made the porridge carefully, using milk for about 10% of the liquid - added a tiny bit extra - here’s how it looked (I would have preferred it a bit wetter)

I used barley flakes for slightly less than half the oats so don’t know how that affected things. The oats were jumbo oats so I roughly chopped them before cooking.

Mixed the pseudo autolyse and followed instructions adding porridge just before first set of stretch and folds.  Dough was fairly firm and I incorporated porridge by a kind of lamination process.  After 5 sets of stretch and folds I felt dough was fine so left it for 3 hours. HEre is dough just preshaped.

 

 this was then rested 20 minutes before shaping. I left dough on bench for 45 minutes before retarding for 11 hours overnight. Snipped with scissors as Maurizio suggested  

 

and Baked in DO for 15 minutes at 240°C lid on then 17 minutes lid off.

and finally the crumb.  It is very tender and almost sweet. Very nice

Will make again for sure, tempted to make porridge wetter but crumb was great so maybe I will keep to the formula.

Thanks Dan for another great CB

Leslie

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

And happy to see you. Gorgeous, lacey crumb. I agree, the taste has developed over the last few days.

I think you and Dan must be the only ones not experiencing wet dough -- so much the better for you! 

Keep on baking, 

Carole 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

not sure why the dough was relatively firm. If I hadn’t read Maurizio’s notes I would have added more liquid - just goes to show that a firm dough can still give a lovely crumb!

Bake happy

Leslie

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I particularly like the color/blisters on the crust! I have to learn to get that thin blistered sourdough crust. Kudos to you!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

so it is mostly pure luck when the crust is like that, although maybe the inclusion of the small percentage of milk influenced it

. thanks

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You knocked that one out of the park. 

Outstanding in every way!

Dan

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I must try  using milk route next...and maybe even butter! I looked into my Tivoli Road Bakery book and they also use butter similarly to what Tom described in Kristen's method.

Your crumb is sooo beautiful with that lovely thin crust too......  Lovely.... Kat

P.s. Do you notice any stickiness? I think I need to bake mine a bit hotter but did not want the oats to burn and a balance there...

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

yes I did, there was a bit of residue on the knife.  I baked until internal temp was over 208°F and then put it back for another minute.  It is sliced and frozen now but I will check it next time I have some.

thanks Kat, bake happy

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

...well, half serious. “You could bake cement and get open crumb”!

Your not so secret admirer, Danny :D

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

and that after all is a good thing.  I enjoyed this bake and the flavour whilst not strong is very nice.  The other oaty sourdough I love is Kirsten’s. but I can’t get a crumb anywhere near as open as she does... oh well lots of practice to do..

thank you Danny, your bakes are amazing.

Leslie

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I have not baked a community bake before. What a great way to approach a new formula with all the help from the other postings. Your bake is lovely and the crumb is outstanding. I cooked my oats in a double boiler with whey and didn't have any trouble. 

I will definitely be making this bread again as well. c

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

the element really low and only just got to the 15 minute mark, keeping the lid on helped too I think.

Now I have to read the other posts and look at the rest of the pretty pictures -  you get such a range of approaches it is awesome.  

thank you 

Leslie

David R's picture
David R

It's my impression that (a) all mills steam the oats before putting them through the rollers, AND (b) each mill does the steaming differently, creating differences in the finished product - including different rates and amounts of water absorption.

albacore's picture
albacore

Porridge Three Ways

Following some gentle persuasion from Dan, I finally got round to my take on the latest community bake. Of course, me being me, I couldn't resist a little recipe tweaking; after all, we don't want all the bakes to look the same, do we ;)

So, I thought let's split the oats into three, as follows:

Oats

    70g rolled oats + 140g water cooked into a porridge + 0.7g salt, cooled and 5g starter added. Fermented at 24C for 24hrs
    70g pinhead oatmeal + 18g bran sifted from 250g white wheat wholegrain flour + 0.9g salt, 1g malt and 7g starter + 88g warm water. Fermented at 24c for 24hrs
    70g rolled oats + 140g water cooked into a porridge as normal on doughmaking day
  

Flours 

    250g white wheat wholegrain flour, bran sifted as above
    50g wholegrain Kamut flour
    325g Canadian BF
    375g 12.9% BF
   
True hydration incl oats = 89%
Levain 260g = 9% PFF
Salt 1.8% of all cereals


Process

    20mins fermentolyse
    Mixed in the spiral mixer
    3.5hrs bulk rise
    Shaped loaves retarded overnight
    Loaves baked with steam
   
    
Results   

    This turned out to be an extremely wet, sticky dough, even though the hydration was "only" 89%. I'm thinking porridge doughs perhaps turn out wetter when spiral mixed, because the wetness of the porridge is more effectively mixed into the bulk of the dough?
    However I got some oven spring and ears and quite a nice open crumb, fluffy rather than creamy.


   

Lance
   


DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lance, your oat concoction has my head spinning. A mad scientist in his laboratory. LOL!

How did you calculate the 260g levain?

Did the 2 different starter fermented oat mixes account for any or all of the levain?

please help me to understand.

BTW- all 3 loaves love fantastic.

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and light crumb which I think is so typical of porridge loaves....

My sister in Germany spoke to me yesterday and was very jealous that we bake this bread as she is not totally gluten intolerant but tries to stay away from it as much as possible and commented how expensive a porridge loaf is in Munich...but she said something about that some oats still have gluten...whereas I was under the assumption that oats do not have gluten but I assume I need to look into this as may not apply to all type of oats...

She would love all our loaves here... Kat

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Kat; there have been some very high quality bakes in this thread. I never heard of gluten in oats, but not a topic I have ever researched, I must admit.

Now I'm wondering what bread to make for my weekly bake this week....

Lance

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

do have gluten with regards to a gluten intolerance definition whereas normal oats don't I believe.

I need to look a little bit more into it and then can bake her a bread next time I see her. Buckwheat I think is ok too.

Happy Baking Weekend...I can recommend Maurizio's seeded SD formula too... Kat

pmccool's picture
pmccool

but they do contain a related prolamin called avenin.  It is well-tolerated by many, but not all, people with celiac disease.  

The tricky thing with oat products is to ensure that they never become cross-contaminated with other gluten-containing grains.  Harvesting equipment, storage facilities, trucks, and mills all have the potential for introducing gluten-containing grains if they have ever handled rye, barley, or wheat in addition to oats.  

Paul

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I think where I managed to confuse myself is that we call them all 'Flocken' in German which I assume translates to flakes...So Dinkelflocken (spelt flakes), Kamutflocken (kamutflakes) and Roggenflocken (rye flakes) do contain gluten and Haferflocken (oats) do not as you so well describe.......

Thank you for explaining... Kat

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Another home run! We sure do have some heavy hitters around here! I am humbled by all the great bread!

albacore's picture
albacore

Dan, texture was light and fluffy. The flavour, as with all breads, I find difficult to describe, because as far as I am aware, there are very few flavour descriptors to describe the taste of bread in detail (which is completely different to beer or wine, for example, which have well established flavour descriptors and profiles) - incredible, isn't it?

WRT levain, I have moved away from specifying %age levain and prefer to use prefermented flour percentage (PFF), because this is independent of levain hydration.

I usually go for 10% PFF, but this time I went for 9% to account for the bit of levain in the two oat preferments.

Lance

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

Not very successful but I'd post it anyway... More details in my latest post.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experience :)

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I think you achieved a very respectable rendition of Maurizio's oat porridge bread! How did you find the taste and texture? I sure does look good!

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

It might not be very obvious from this photo but the dough was under-proofed. I find the taste a bit bland as there's not much acidity. However, the texture is good. It's springy and exceptionally moist like all properly baked porridge bread. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and did you retard or proof at room temperature? I find proofing at room temperature still very, very difficult and need to do this more...as in a way retarding in my avoiding the challenge.... Kat

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

Partly because this fits my schedule better, partly because I'm poor at judging the degree of proof for room temperature dough. Probably due to the lack of practice... Oh and there's better crust caramelization and blistering with retarded dough too.

Thanks for commenting Kat. Please feel free to refer to my post for more details :)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yes indeed, Elsie. The crust is very attractive. I have no idea how to produce that without retardation. I was talking with Abe today. We talked about the gift of some unknown (to me) baker that shared the concept of retarding doughs overnight. What a gift to the baking community!

I appreciate your participation in the CBs. The more people share, the more everyone learns.

Dan

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

We may all start out baking using different learning channels, producing different breads and for different intentions. Though the bread we bake look, taste and smell uniquely, we somehow share similar baking approaches gradually. Around a year ago when I was just introduced to baking, I came up with my own way of dough shaping as a self-taught baker. It wasn't until months later that I realized this is how almost everyone is shaping their loaves... :) 

Thanks for organizing the community bake, Dan. It's been a while since I baked a porridge loaf that I've forgotten how much its texture appeals to me. 

David R's picture
David R

I agree with you. There are thousands of variations on bread making, but the majority of those differences are not significant. Among the many many details that don't really matter, people can do whatever they want without ruining anything. But with the things that really matter, people may start out doing things all sorts of ways, but with experience, they generally come around to choosing one of those two or three ways that really work.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Boy, I am getting to know this recipe like an old reliable friend! The porridge is folded in, (Bob's thick cut.) 1 &1/2 hours and two stretch and folds into the bulk ferment the dough ball is not looking to bad at all! Very promising in fact!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

This is where I inevitably, lay to waste a good days work.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

When does the dough become a bread? When the starter is first mixed into a levin? After the bulk ferment? Alternatively is it not bread till it come out of the oven? These are hard questions. I will retire to my lean-too and ponder. Good night, friends.  

 food and indoor

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Good morning, friends.

 The babies passed the poke test and the oven is preheating. I am taking Dans advice and using a light weight aluminum bowl over my pizza steel. As luck would have it I remembered I have some "cake strips" I never used. They are meant to  be soaked in water then placed around a cake layer pan. Today the Velcro strips will go around the bread babies, providing structural support and steam! I will remove when the cover comes off. Smile...

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

PieKing, I checked out your cake strips. How do you plan to use them? On Amazon they are shown wrapped around the cake pan. They also say the strips need to be soaked in water before use. If that is the case, I am concerned about how the moisture will affect the dough.

Danny

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

One patient was mildly injured. First, the aluminum bowl worked like a charm! Now the fun stuff. The first photo the small bread was strapped, I did not flour the strap and it stuck to the bread.  With that I decided to leave the next small loaf unstrapped to compare and and see if there is enough improvement to warrant the extra step. Well I did see some improvement and I felt I could do even better. For the last large boulie I floured the strap heavy and did not tighten it quite as much. Well I will let you judge the result for yourselves! The trade off is no carmalization on the sides. I removed the strap when the lid came off, by the way. I did soak the strap, I see no ill effect. Next time I may line the inside of the strap with parchment paper.

 food

 

 food and indoor

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

alfanso's picture
alfanso

There's an awful lot of fine breads crowding the field on this Community Bake.  Here is mine.  Write-up is in this link to my blog entry.

alan

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Another “signature” bake. We don’t even need to know the name of the baker to know who baked it.

WOW!

Danny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

as my "signature" on the bakes!  Awaiting a few hours before slicing into the little beasts to see what the crumb holds in store.

thanks, alan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

penmanship is a lost art (as far as I am concerned.) That being said, you are a very accomplished baker! Very nice batards. Reminds me of the Prince family of Canarsie, I was raised on their bread! Every grocery store in the neighborhood and beyond sold their bread! 

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

side of the earth from where I was raised - the Bronx.  Although I had a college buddy who worked as a life guard at Brighton Beach, so I made the loooong trek there by the D train a few times in the early 70's.

My father, being an old school European, as we called them, tried to force me to write right handed.  Being a lefty, that endeavor didn't go over too successfully.  Apparently i wouldn't have done much worse ;-) .

thanks for the kind words, alan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

You know 60 years in N.Y. I still have not done more than pass though the Bronx!

algebread's picture
algebread

A version of this loaf that I did last weekend.

Details are here.

The tenderness of the crumb was not at all exaggerated by others and was quite pleasant. This loaf will be made again. Out of curiosity, does tighter shaping typically yield a rounder profile? This loaf seems to have a slightly less round profile than some others in this thread.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another version of  this loaf. Full details are here. The main differences from last time are:

  • Warm, short bulk (87F for 3.5 hours) to decrease sourness
  • Porridge was creamy rather than stiff, making it much easier to incorporate, but also make the dough wetter and sticker
  • Final proof was three hours in a brotform at 80F ambient temperature (also to discourage sourness)

The final loaf was less sour than last time (although I would still like to try yeast water), and the crumb was lighter.

Questions:

Both times that I have made this bread, the porridge has been pinched in with the salt for reasons of convenience; however, Maurizio and the Tartine book on whole grains recommend folding in porridge at the first and second fold, respectively. Does anyone have thoughts on why folding is the recommended method of incorporation? It seems to me that pinching it in would let one break up lumps more easily and be gentler to the dough later in the fermentation process.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alge, you asked, “does tighter shaping typically yield a rounder profile?” Rounder in which way? Round around the sides or a rounder and higher profile?

Very nice bread! Both the crumb and crust look great. Couldn’t agree more about the tenderness and taste of this bread. Oat porridge has a fantastic affect on bread. Next time (if I remember), I plan to try a double boiler for the porridge. Another great idea gleaned from the CB.

Dan

algebread's picture
algebread

Thanks---it is only one loaf among many nice ones in this thread, including yours.

I was thinking rounder around the sides. Specifically, it seems like the edges of some people's slices curve inwards noticably before they hit the bottom of the loaf.

Also, did anyone else find that their slashes (or scissor cuts) spread less than usual? Perhaps it is simply because the dough is so wet that it spreads more.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alge, maybe your bread didn’t rise up at the bottom because the dough is so slack. The porridge bread uses 25% oats. Oats don’t have gluten and that coupled with a high hydration should make a slack dough.

If the dough is strong and easily shaped, then shaping would have a greater affect on the sides rising.

Lastly, proper proofing with provide maximum oven spring, which could also affect the profile of the sides.

Dan

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I found by far the easiest way to incorporate the porridge is to add it to the volume of water that is set aside for the initial mix. It's simplicity itself to  stir it into the larger volume of water ....I of course also add the levain and the salt at this point as well and then add in the flours and since I have held the extra water back I can add from that as needed. 

The only variable on all bakes that can be changed without substantially changing the formula is the water. I hold back a substantial amount from the get go so that I can balance feel and response of the dough to the formula as stated. Water is the only thing that doesn't affect the flavor but sure can make the rest of the bake a joy or a nightmare. 

Just my thoughts but I stopped making porridge bread years ago after a terrible experience of hydration and inability to incorporate the porridge. I sure wish I had explored more and not given up. I am now preparing to bake this bread again :)  I am a confirmed porridge baker now !  c

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

Hi Dan.. here's the post in this message chain..

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60112/oat-porridge-community-bake#comment-433299

Thanks..

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I’ve got my levain using YW rising . It made such a beautiful loaf I’m doing it again. I used my flaker last night to do barley and spelt so I’m going to make the porridge out of one of those. I may toast the flakes some too we’ll see. Good luck and be sure to post c

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am interested to read your comparison of barley and or spelt with oat porridge as far as taste, texture etc. 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I'm looking forward to exploring the flaking of all the grains I have in my store and then incorporating them in bakes. You've really opened a new door for me. :) thank you .c

syros's picture
syros

Ok - I absolutely have to bake this bread this week. I had hoped to have participated last week but other things got in the way. What a fabulous bake. It is so enjoyable to read everyone’s journey. I hope I can handle this one. It looks really challenging. 

Dan, thanks again for your organizing this and handling all the questions with Maurizio. 

Congrats to all!

Sharon

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Sharon, it seems a general consensus that the way the porridge is cooked is important to the overall success.

3 thoughts to consider when cooking the oats

  1. cook the oats slowly and only long enough (less than 16 min) to gelatinize the oats (PMCool)
  2. cook in a double boiler to prevent burning the bottom (TrailRunner)
  3. passing the cooked oats through a ricer in order to make incorporation easier into the final dough (Alfanso)

I am not implying that you do any of the above, since I haven’t tried them. Only that you consider them. I definitely have plans to try them all.

Also be mindful to hold back some of the dough water for your salt and possibly when you incorporate the oats. I think it was Caroline, aka TrailRunner that always holds back some water when mixing the final dough so that it can be added as needed to adjust the final dough hydration. IMO, this is an excellent idea. Historically, I have generally mixed according to instructions. The hands of an experienced baker should know best.

...a few ideas to consider. Wishing you phenomenal success!

Dan

Oh! I am making a yeast water. When it is ready I plan to use it for the Oat Porridge bread. So many ideas and only so much time to test them. IMO, this bread merits perfecting.

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

When I first started baking bread a few years ago there was a lot of information available online, some of it useful and informative, some not so much.  Maurizio's blog "The Perfect Loaf" was one of the best sources of information for me - lots of pictures, detailed instructions, well-written and encouraging.  Reading of his experiences with his Oat Porridge Sourdough bread I noted one of his early inspirations for the bread came from Chad Robertson's "Tartine 3" Oat Porridge recipe...it happened I was also working my way through Robertson's book at the time so my hands on learning benefited greatly from Maurizio's generous sharing of his experiences while exploring the wonders of porridge bread.  So, I am late to the party, but here is my Oat Sourdough Bread as inspired by Maurizio and Chad Robertson.

 

 Oat Porridge Sourdough

  1.  mixed 30% fresh milled sifted (about an 85% extraction) Marquis wheat flour, 70% organic all purpose white flour, *72.5% filtered water; 3 hour autolyse at room temperature (20 C)
  2. then mixed 1.5% sea salt dissolved in *2.5% water, 20% young levain (4 hours); 4 hour bulk fermentation started with a series of stretch and folds (about 50) and then four every thirty minutes for two hours
  3. after the first series of folds, gently incorporated *30% steel cut oat porridge, 5.0% toasted chopped almonds, 1.5% almond oil
  4. preshaped after 4 hours (about 30% rise), 1/2 hour rest, final shaping, coated with oat flakes and sifted bran, and into cloth lined baskets for an overnight cold proof, 9 1/2 hours
  5. baked directly from cold proof in pre-heated Creusets - covered, 500 F for 25 minutes; 450 F for 10 minutes; uncovered and out of pots directly on baking stone to finish 450 F for18 minutes

FDH estimated at 82-85% after adding porridge

 

There are a few differences from Maurizio's recipe and from Robertson's Tartine 3 recipe, most notably less porridge and salt, more levain. These are "tinkering" changes, not in any way a criticism of the orginal recipes, just changes I have come to, personal preferences.  I like oat porridge sourdough, I really like it...soft, custardy crumb with a subtle taste of oats and hint of almonds; a thin crispy tender crust with lots of dark baked flavour. And the wonderful thing about Oat Porridge bread is that it is delicious fresh (after letting it sit for at least 12 hours), delicious toasted  and keeps for more than a few days.  

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The crust shows a nice gluten development that is uncommon for most of our bakes. You stated 30% oat porridge so I assume that was the weight of the oats and water used to cook the porridge. What is the percentage of oats used for the formula?

How did the almonds and oil affect the flavor? Please do your best to describe.

I plan take another swing at the porridge bread, maybe as soon as tomorrow.

Thanks for sharing that beauty...

Danny

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

Thanks for your comments Dan. I have tinkered with oat porridge and other grain porridges and cooked cracked/coarse ground grains and seed "porridges" over the past few years - and like Ian (isand66), I enthusiastically endorse porridge breads, mostly because of the moist, custardy soft crumb but also because one can maintain a desired open, lighter texture with added nutritional and flavour components, all without the loaf becoming too dense. This was one of the first things I read in Tartine 3, Robertson's comments about how different grains and seeds added as porridges could be used to change the flavour and nutritional profile of his basic sourdough bread.  The light bulb went on. It is possible to bake bread that tastes good, is good for you and still has a pleasing open crumb esthetic.  That's why porridges, soakers, mashed sprouted grains appeal to me. And for this bake I had steel cut oats on hand so I used them instead of rolled oat flakes, 

As to the question about percentages of oats, water...the answer is I don't know. I just toss some steel cut or rolled oats in a pot with some water to cover, bring to boil and then simmer to a gruel-like state and let cool. Sometimes the porridge is wetter, sometimes it is thicker and dryer and the dough hydration changes accordingly. I have taken to fine tuning and adjusting the dough on the go; I started with a basic autolyse hydration of 70% for this porridge bread, increased the hydration to 72.5% with the addition of water with the salt.  After adding the levain the dough hydration felt like it was around 78% and after adding the porridge (300 g) it felt like a dough somewhere around 85% hydration, just about where I like it for this kind of bread. I know this isn't going to seem very helpful at the start but I encourage you to focus more and more on your own intuition and the feel of the dough and less on formulas and percentages - they are useful to get you started, to give you an idea how things should be but I find recipes can also be a little constraining. It's like what many TFLers will tell you about watching the dough not the clock, same thing, yes? 

Your question about how the almonds and almond oil affect the flavour of the bread is difficult to answer!  I think Robertson mentions it as an optional addition, something he carefully selected as a complimentary flavour for the oat porridge.  And that's the way it appeals to my taste buds - the soft, mellow, nutty almond flavour compliments and enhances the similar soft, mellow flavour of the oats. It is a subtle flavour addition.  I suggest trying a bit of hot oatmeal porridge with some slivered, toasted almonds - that's the taste I am trying to describe, it's delicious.

Looking forward to seeing your next oat porridge bread Danny!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I would imagine you probably don’t have one, but just in case... I am mixing a porridge bread today. When I bake a new bread the instructions are followed precisely. After a few successful bakes, I venture out.

Some of the ideas that appealed to me in the CB were:

  1. cook porridge in a double boiler (did that, liked the results a lot)
  2. use less water than instructed, with the option to add back as needed (completely agree with you about the hydration)
  3. Using 20% oats instead of 25%
  4. incorporate some Yeast Water (don’t care four sour flavor with oat porridge)
  5. all bran combined with whole grain used in levain(s)
  6. use some milk
  7. toast the oats in butter before cooking

I really like your bread. Any additional details that you can provide is appreciated.

Thanks for sharing.

Danny

Oh! I may get bodacious and try the Oat Porridge as a miche. <maybe - maybe not> This could be my first miche ever. I am concerned about spreading in the oven so dough binders would be employed.

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

Hi Dan, 

If by "formula" you mean a spreadsheet, no, I don't have anything as sophisticated as that but I do have a bunch of hand-written notes, bits of scribbled information for every loaf of bread I have baked for the past 5 years!  I am not given by nature to keeping meticulous journals or logs but information for each bake is kept with the anticipation that even this blind squirrel will one day happen across a nut  - I want to be able to at least have a starting point to replicate the results if I stumble upon the "perfect" loaf!  And further to my comment about being constrained by recipes, please understand that was not me advocating abandoning recipes or marginalizing the value of a precise forumula; it would be a frustrating and daunting process learning how to bake this bread without a recipe to start from, the sort of information and encouragement provided by this site and so many others.  Bakers like Robertson, Forkish, Bourdon, Hammelman and the many other's that we learn from, I think they are at a point in their experience that they can bake intuitively, relying on a master's instincts to create their breads and can then give guidance and directions for replicating their results in the form of recipes for people like us.  That's what I meant, the focus and pursuit of a solid baker's intuition gained by hands on experience, recipes/forumula as useful starting points, references from which to experiment and tinker.  So with that, here is some information about how I made this Oat Porridge Sourdough, I hope it is useful for your bake today Dan.

Oat Porridge Sourdough (for two loaves or one miche!)

  1. 350 g fresh milled organic Marquis wheat (300 g) and rye (50g) sifted to yleld 300 g flour; bran set aside for coating the loaves and feeding my starter
  2. Mixed with 700 g organic all purpose white flour (I use Anita's Mill Flour) and 700 g filtered water; autolyse for 2 hours at room temperature (i prefer 2-3 hour autolyse for this bread)
  3. Then mixed in 15 g sea salt with 25 g filtered water; 200 g young levain (4 hours) 
  4. Bulk fermentation started with a series of stretch/folds (50), then four every thirty minutes for the first two hours
  5. After the first series of stretch/folds, 300 g steel-cut oat porridge was added along with 50 g toasted coarse chopped almonds and 15 g almond oil. I incorporated the porridge by gently spreading it over the dough and pushing it under at the edges of the bowl and finished with a few gentle stretch/folds *Note: I used steel cut oats for this porridge but have in past used rolled oats too, both work well.  When I first tried baking this bread I was quite concerned with how much dry oats, how much water and what consistency for the final porridge - after many bakes I have come to just making a small pot of porridge on the stove and using whatever portion is needed. And even that is not as simple as it sounds!  My wife's family is Irish so there are lots of opinions on how to cook good porridge!  My father-in-law cooked his porridge using only steel cut oats, stirring gently and constantly over medium low heat until the porridge started to "talk" to him, the "fffffft" sound of the porridge bubbles, then it was ready to eat. I cook porridge the same way. Some porridges are wetter, some dryer but the consistency I like is best described as a "glop" of porridge when added to the dough. I start out with a lower dough hydration (70%) and by the time the salt/water and levain have been added I usually have a good sense of how the porridge consistency will affect the dough and can adjust as necessary.  Robertson kind of talks about this in Tartine 3 in the introduction to the porridge bread section of the book; he states the initial dough hydration for his basic sourdough should be reduced from 85% to 75% for all of his porridge breads; the porridge additions will increase the final dough hydration. This bread FDH was somewhere about 82-85%.
  6. After the bulk fermentation finished (30% rise), I pre-shaped the loaves, let them rest for thirty minutes, did the final shaping, coated with oat flakes and sifted bran and into linen lined wicker baskets for an over night cold proof (about 9 hours)
  7. Next morning I baked the loaves directly from the fridge in pre-heated Creusets.  Covered at 500F for 25 minutes; reduced heat to 450 F for 10 minutes; removed from pots and finished directly on a baking stone at 450 F for 18 minutes

I hope this is useful information Dan, looking forward to seeing your oat porridge bread!

Regards,

David

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks David, I see a lot of Maurizio in your bread. I’m not very familiar with Chad’s bread. The main take away that I get from your bake is to “trust your intuition”. I have taken this to heart for the porridge bread that I am stretching and folding now. I don’t know what the hydration is. I reduced the water that was called for and added additional water (bassinage or double hydration) on an as need basis. “The hands want what the hands want”. Or is that the heart? The oats were also reduced from 25% to 20% in an attempt to produce a stronger dough.

I am contemplating a miche using approximately 2 kilos of dough. I just bough a couple of large lined wicker baskets from SFBI. Any thoughts concerning the slack dough for such a large bread? Should I abandon the idea for this particular dough?

Again, thanks David for taking the time to write your procedure up!

Danny

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

Well, what you describe as a slack dough may be just what it should be to make a really good porridge bread this bake so two things....first, maybe better to make several smaller loaves, more opportunity to work your way through the challenge of shaping a high hydration dough whereas you get only one chance with one large miche; second, go big or go home, have a go at shaping the bigger loaf, if you are succesful, great...if not, there's always another bread to bake another day!

David

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I also started with the Tartine 3 version and was convinced the directions for the porridge was a misprint. It was stiff, dry and hard to incorporate and seemed only half cooked. I was helped along by Muarizio's attempts but still not successful. Now I make the oatmeal like you would have it for breakfast and add it in at half of the flour weight. The amount of oats I use before cooking it ends up around 10% of the flour. That might be straying too far from the original recipe but it is what works for me.

The last time I made this bread, the dough was a little too wet, so as recommended here by Mini, I folded in a handful of dry uncooked oats and the dough became much more manageable in a very short time and they disappeared in there somewhere. It ended up a little more like a Tartine style of bread.

bowl of oats

crumb

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

That's for sure got the look of a Tartine oat porridge loaf MT, the crumb is what gives it away, nice bake!  

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

WoW...some gorgeous loaves! I have not been looking at this community bake page for a couple of days and more gorgeous bakes are coming in...I certainly will look into how to get a creamier porridge looking at those crumbs....

Thank you for your summary on how to improve the porridge Dan based on current bakes and I shall look into this.....  Kat

syros's picture
syros

So - I made my starter with a Canadian All purpose called Five Roses which is at 13.3% protein and a sifted whole wheat flour. After 4/12 hours it was ready to go. I made one loaf and used Bob's Red Mill Ivory whole wheat instead of the whole wheat Maurizio calls for.

The porridge - I ended up making 2 batches because the first one didn't look creamy enough so I switched pans for the 2nd batch.

Then the salt and 22g of the held back water - took about 3 minutes for the dough to come together but it was nice and smooth and sticky.

Added the porridge and 20g of water. I followed Maurizio's time line for stretch and folds. The preshape was a bit challenging. He's so right about the amount of water the porridge releases!

At this point my dough was quite billowy and after the final shaping, I only let it sit out in the banneton for 20 minutes and then in the fridge.

It's cooling now - I baked it at 500 for 20 minutes, then 450 for 10 minutes, lid on. Another 30 minutes, lid off.

Will send crumb shots later. I apologize that my shots are not in order and still not savvy enough add titles!

This was quite the challenge! Thanks Dan and to all participants!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

And back with a great -looking bake! Don't forget to keep us posted on the evolution of your flour blends. 

Keep on baking, 

Carole 

syros's picture
syros

I'll keep you posted as I will try this again next week - not going to be around for a good part of this week. I'm already changing the starter I used for this bake to 100% AP.

Carole, you are always an inspiration!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

But I sure like the ego-boost 😊! Thanks!

See you soon.

syros's picture
syros

So after almost 24 hours I cut into it. Nice crumb, very moist. A bit of tang which I would like to sweeten up if I make it again. I don't think I would use whole wheat in my levain for the starter.

But a delicious bread nonetheless.

Sharon

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your crumb looks great too me.

Your bread rose extremely well, which is not the norm for a dough with a high percentage of oats. Great Job!

There is something about oats and sour that is not ideal. TrailRunner used Yeast Water for her bread. I really like that idea because YW provides no sour taste. I am in the process of making an apple yeast water now.

Even those I am crazy about sour bread, the Oat Porridge is a real winner in my opinion.

Looks like to baked in a covered Granite Ware roaster. If so, how do you like it? Do you use a baking stone with it?

Dan

 

syros's picture
syros

I used a Staub DO which is working well for me. one. What I do is place a baking stone on the lowest rack, then place the rack right above it. I've only recently started using the Staub DO as my go to bread baking equipment.

It was from Maurizio that I started using parchment paper from the very beginning. I really like way it bakes this way. I'm not getting burnt bottoms with this technique. Normally with the Staub, I've dropped the temp down about 25 degrees because Maurizio mentions that in one of his posts on baking with different techniques, but for this bake I followed his directions to the letter.

I really believe the sour is from the whole wheat - and my starter is pretty active - so if I make this again, I am using all purpose for the levain. The jury is out on what else I might sub for the whole wheat in the recipe. I used an ivory whole wheat, but I wonder how a white red fife or kamut would do with this bake. I found my dough was very fermented by the time for the preshape and shaping. It really didn't need another hour on the counter.

Thanks for all your work. I'm still reading the post on how to improve the CB.

Sharon

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

Beautiful bread Sharon!  YW is a good leavening agent if you prefer non-tangy or less sour tasting bread but the overall taste of the bread will be different from a pure starter-leavened sourdough bread; I think Trailrunner uses a mix of YW and starter to balance the flavour and leavening of her breads.  I often use a mix of starter and commercial yeast for breads like foaccia, naan, pizza dough or brioche because I like the flavour. My starter is fed on a diet of rye/hard red wheat and all purpose white flour, a 50:50 mix, 100% hydration.  For porridge bread I too prefer a sweeter, less sour bread. I use a young levain (4 hours or less, made using a very active starter fed twice/day) and less of it (I think Robertson's Tartine 3 Oat Porridge recipe calls for 15% levain); this allows a modest bulk fermentation rise (about 20%) and long overnight cold proof without getting too much sour.  Also, your observation about how the whole wheat affected the bulk fermentation time is very true, that's why I like to feed my starter with a fresh milled whole grain flour mix!  In my experience to date baking porridge breads, learning how to create bread that tastes like what I hope it should be, I find a modest amount of fresh milled whole grain flour (20%, sifted) mixed with a good all purpose white (80%), a young levain, 30% oats, about 85% FDH produces a very nice oat porridge bread - very soft, custardy crumb and a rich, oaty flavour, not tangy at all.  Looking forward to your next bake!

 

 

syros's picture
syros

I have never tried YW. But I definitely want to try this one again. Mind you I haven’t made your recipe yet. The flour that I use generally here in Montreal is a hard red wheat. That’s why I tried the Ivory whole wheat because it’s a sweeter flavor. But like I asked Kat, how do you think kamut - especially white kamut would affect bulk fermentation times and hydration as well? I’m so new at this that I don’t know if I’m willing to experiment quite yet with this type of bake. I appreciate your input and experience. I have fed my starters with rye from time to time, but eventually revert back to an all-purpose one. A lot to think about. 

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

Kamut (khorasan) bread has a nice smooth, soft texture and a nutty, buttery taste and a beautiful golden colour. I have not ventured into a high percentage kamut flour bread yet but have added as much as 30% to some of my breads.  It does tend to increase the activity of the dough, shorter proof times and adds a bit more extensibility to the dough; need to balance FDH with this in mind.  Nothing daunting, just something to be aware of -  this will add a different variable to how your dough feels and acts in the bulk fermentation.  You say you are new at all this Sharon...so we all are, really!  Every bake is an adventure, and for me, I hope that is the way it always is...it's good for mind, body and soul to be in the mix, auto-pilot off, mind and senses engaged.  Go ahead and bake some kamut bread, use some YW, try a young levain, experiment with different grains.  You will be ok and I am pretty sure there will be some fine bread coming out of your oven, looking forward to seeing whatever bread you try next!

Regards,

David

P.S. Out here in western Canada we are fortunate to have a number of organic farms growing some really good heritage grains -  hard and soft winter/spring wheats, grains and seeds. I think there are probably some CSA farms in Ontario and Quebec to source some different wheat and grains for you to experiment with, maybe contact Danni and ask if she has some information for sourcing good flour in Ontario and Quebec?

 

 

 

syros's picture
syros

I've been checking out availability in Ontario. Quebec's La Milanese seems to be the main organic flour source here. Five Roses has worked very well for me. We have Robin Hood but I won't use that. I have also thought about ordering directly from King Arthur- I have bought their flour when I went home to visit and I quite like it. But I'm always on the lookout. The soft winter/spring wheats have been a bit harder to find.

I have made kamut bread and loved every bite of it. So I might venture with it the next time I make this bread, hopefully next week. The highest percentage I've used is also 30%. Not sure if I would go higher.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and looks like we are all now pursuing that whole grail of 'creamy porridge'...must pay attention to this

next time... Great bake! Kat

syros's picture
syros

Thanks Kat - your bakes have been amazing. There have been so many bakes that have been incredible on this CB.  Just need to work out a few kinks on this one. How do you think kamut would work in this one?

Alan.H's picture
Alan.H

I am very late once again with this entry so I will keep this relatively short to avoid being overtaken by the next community bake.

This will be the second time I have baked a porridge bread having recently come across Ru007's 3rd version of her Oat Porridge SD of Aug 2016. My first attempt at this bake came out so well that it went straight into my "must bake again" list, (which is now so long that some of it will have to be attempted posthumously). I loved the soft creamy and flavourful crumb, thank you Ru, and I was more than pleased when Danny chose Maurizio's version for the current community bake.

One advantage of joining the party so late is that there is now a wealth of other bakers' experience with this formula to benefit from, in particular the frequent mention of problems with hydration. So although I stuck closely to the original weights and measures, I did initially reduce the water in the mix by 100g and slowly added back about 45g until the dough felt right to me.

The rest of the mix and ferment followed Maurizio's formula with a few variations to suit our current lifestyle, (we no longer do 6.30 a.m starts).

Here's how it came out.

My own verdict, could do better. I would like to have a more open crumb and I think that it is probably a bit over fermented, but that is the fun of it It is a very tasty bread and there will be a next time to look forward to.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, I’d be happy with your crumb, although like you a bit more open would be nice. Maybe the reduction in hydration had an affect. I’m not sure it was over proofed, because the bread seemed to have risen very well.

Please let us know about your future bakes. It is never too late to post a bake to any Community Bake. Others, maybe even years later, can benefit from your findings.

Dan