Yay! Thank you! After much research and tips and narrowing down the problem (via videos from King Arthur flour and seeing their dough in each step), I figured out that I wasn't kneading it correctly in the bulk fermentation step. I was doing the push-down and quarter turn method. No folding or stretching, because I wasn't even aware of that at all! Interesting how even the end result in bread can point to a problem much earlier in the process. With just folding and stretching, the dough became dramatically different, and the bread held its nicely curved lofty shape during baking! yay!!!!!!!

Now on to invest in a thermometer...

My first post after lurking for some time.

I have been making a lean rustic bread, soemthing like a french bread.  I have made it about 10 or so times. My question is along the lines of folding, and proofing.  The recipe states that I shouldallow the first fermentation to go for 90 minmutes, then fold once and then divide, shape proof etc.

What I am finding is that a primary ferment for 90 minutes is too long.  Often the dough has risen more than double, and by teh time I get thoguh with teh fold and shaping, the 2 hour proof does not get the loaves proofed enough for me.  Oh, I get significant oven spring, tehy taste greate tc.  BUT... I'd like tjhe crumb to be a bit lighter, and have a few more larger holes.  So...

How is this done?  I have a few ideas, and I think I'd like the feedback to address these ideas specifically, but additonal thoughts are always welcome!

1. Too long of a primary ferment.  Shorten it up so there is a bit of life left in teh yeast as the loaves proof and can get a little bigger.

2. fold three times during the first fermentation, say every thirty minutes until 90 minutes, then divide and shape.  Doesn't folding provide some structure for larger holes to form during proofing?

3. use less yeast.  I think that maybe I have too much yeast in teh recipe, 1 tsp for the poolish, 2 tsp for the main dough.  If there are too many yeasties, they will eat all the food all at once and ther ewon't be enough sugar left for them to eat when proofing time comes along.

Anyway, I think my dought is in good shape, I mix using a kitchen aide, use a poolish, knead for 10-15  minutes, dough is a little on the wet side, but not too wet ~65% hydration.  I bake on a stone at 475 for 15 minutes and get 200F center temperature. 

Thanks, Roger

I am using Floyd's Whole Wheat bread recipe on the site and it says to stretch and fold 2-3 times during bulk rising. Does that mean during the 60-90 minute rise I am to interrupt it and fold the dough every 20-30 minutes and if not, what is the technique?

Thank you for your help. :)

This is in response to Trailrunner's questions on a mixing discussion over at Hansjoakim's blog here on a fantastic-looking crumb he has on his Hazelnut bread.

Lately I seem to get best results with a combo of warm shorter bulk ferment with frequent early folding and long cold final proof. No mixer, no kneading with flour, no repeated French-folding. (warning, this could change as soon as I read of a better method, so please take with a grain of sea salt!):

• Hand mix all the ingredients with a large dough whisk in large bowl (incl. salt)
• Cover and let rest (autolyse) for 30 min. (I know you are supposed to leave out the salt but I find it easier to mix everything initially if not using a standmixer)
• After 30 min. rest, use plastic dough scraper to fold dough onto itself in the same bowl, just like what Mark does in his video here. I count to about 100 as that takes me just about 3 min., and that has seemed to develop the dough well.
• Next round up the dough with scaper and place it into a clean, lightly spray-oiled lidded dough bucket - or for large-size doughs where I double or triple the formula, I use a big square clear plastic food service container with lid.
• Let the dough sit for 30 min. (preferably at 76F location), then do a single stretch & fold as per Hamelman: if dough is in smaller bucket, tip the dough out onto a lightly spray-oiled counterstop, stretch it out into a rectangle, and letter fold it onto itself once, rotate 90 degrees, letter fold again, and put it back in the bucket for another 30 minutes. If dough is in big square container, just fold it right in the container and turn upside down when done.
• Repeat step above 2 more times for a total of 3 folding sessions spread 30 min. apart. Then leave the dough to finish bulk-fermenting at 76F, usually for another 90-120 minutes until just doubled (my home-made starter is not that fast a riser).
• Next shape loaves, then I place the shaped loaves in a 45-50F location (my unheated mudroom) to retard overnight or 12 hrs min.
• After cold retarding I place the proofed loaves in my room temp (65F) kitchen while I preheat my baking stone for 45 min. and bake with steam right after that, usually the loaves are proofed enough after all that time retarding, and the oven spring is great.

Here are results of a less slack dough (65% hydration pain au levain 10% whole wheat), not huge holes like you'd get with a very wet dough, but large enough and evenly distributed, and very flavorful crumb, chewy but not gummy:

I still need to try SteveB's double-mixing technique he describes here. If anyone sees any error in my ways with how I've been doing this, I'm all ears! I'm sure I'll revise this after I read Advanced Bread and Pastry, due in soon.

The Fresh Loafers, This is the latest video where I'm working with some higher hydration (68%) doughs. Both of the breads are 'originals', and if you'd like to see the recipes you can probe around here for them or email me at the bakery. Anyway, I hope you like it. I decided to forego music this time and just add commentary. Nothing witty, strictly business.

-Mark
http://TheBackHomeBakery.com

i have a general question to all those experienced bakers.

let's say a recipe says to let the dough rise until doubled, or about 2 hours. then punch it down/fold andd let rise again.

what if my schedule is such that i have to do the folding before the dough has doubled in size? can i compensate with a longer 2nd rise?

i'm making a ciabatta and i see that the ponsford recipe calls for folding at 20 minute intervals for an hour. how would this differ from doing all 4 folds at the same time and letting it rise for an hour thereafter? 

Hey everybody. This is the same kneading and folding video as before, but with Spanish subtitles for the commentary, thanks to fellow FreshLoafian, Joe Martello. I have an Italian and German version in the works, and am looking for someone to transcribe it in French. If you're interested, I can send you the English version in Word, then you can put the matching French sentences underneath the English. Thanks.

-Mark
http://TheBackHomeBakery.com

Hey there everyone,

This is the *new and improved* version of the kneading and folding video I posted a couple of days ago. As per some of your suggestions, I addressed the volume levels, intro commentary and video angles. I like it a lot better, and I hope you do to. In addition, I used Hamelman's multigrain dough this time, instead of whole wheat. (Floyd, could you put this video on the first thread also instead of the first video? I removed the first one already from YouTube- thanks in advance). Next video will be on shaping.

-Mark

This is another video that my wife and I put together on kneading and folding. Just a little more detail than the PSB video with some commentary. Hope you guys like it.

Are we supposed to assume that when a dough reaches the point that it windowpanes, the dough has enough strength?  I let my white sourdough reach just that point in the mixer the other day, and did not fold it.  It seemed a bit slack to me, but I was experimenting.  The result was a slack dough that spread quite a bit in the oven. (I did the final proof in a banneton.)  I have also taken that same formula and given it folds to the point that in the oven, it bursts because it's too strong.  How do we assess when I dough has hit that magic point of being strong enough but not too st