The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

idaveindy's blog

idaveindy's picture

In my experience, Fresh-Milled flour has 7 "things" I need to allow for:

This is based on using a sourdough starter/levain. Commercial yeast (dry or fresh) will be slightly different.

1. Fresh-milled flour is usually thirstier, takes more water, than store-bought WW. This is a general rule. You will eventually find exceptions, i.e., some grain will already be high in moisture, and therefore need less water.

2. Fresh-milled flour takes more time to soften, so use 30-90 minutes of soak/autolyse (without starter/levain, depending on granularity (particle size).

Sidenote: because of 1 and 2, if I make a combo fresh-milled WW and white flour loaf, I autolyse only the fresh-milled WW because the white flour would "steal" the water first.  So in that  case, I add the white flour (and some water) when I combine in the levain.  I'm sure there are other ways to do it.

3. Fresh-milled flour is Tricky, in that you think you over-wetted it, but then it absorbs and it feels underhydrated, but then it eventually slackens. So after you learn by trial and error (keep meticulous records of weights) and "dial it in", then you have to trust it to end up at the right spot of hydration.  You sort of have to learn three or four  different "feels", one at each stage, (depending if you add salt in a separate stage -- salt tightens dough, temporarily.)

3a. "Wet sand" feel. Home-milled flour can sometimes be gritty, especially extra hard wheat such as durum and Kamut/Khorasan.  I need at least a 1 hour autolyse (no starter/levain) for these.  And even then, the transformation from "wet sand" to dough doesn't happen, for me at least, until 30-60 minutes after incorporating the levain.

My procedure is usually: 1 hour autolyse, gently incorporate levain (no kneading, just gentle folds), let it rest 30 min, incorporate salt and hold-back water, let rest 30 minutes for it to slacken becasue salt tightens it up, then do stretch and folds.

3b. Important: Do not knead or do "stretch and folds" until the  "wet sand" becomes "dough" and the dough is extensible enough.  If the dough never slackens/loosens or becomes extensible ("stretch-able") enough say, 45 minutes, after adding salt (or after adding levain, if salt was already in it), then it likely needs more water.

4. Fresh-milled ferments FAST!  I use 3.5% prefermented flour for an overnight bulk ferment, or an overnight proof.  Fresh-milled, like most store-bought WW, maybe even more than store-bought WW,  keeps on fermenting in the fridge, more so than white flour does in the fridge.  The fridge won't "stop" WW from fermenting/aging/breaking down.

5. Fresh-milled flour has oil from the bran and germ  Store-bought WW has had some oil evaporated off, and might not even have had the germ in it, depends on brand. So I use little to no oil compared to store-bought WW.

6. If I over-hydrate a dough, and feel like I need to add flour to adjust, I add _white flour_ because it will absorb water quicker than fresh milled WW.  The late addition of WW and especially fresh-milled WW won't get as hydrated/soaked as well as what was in there from the beginning.  In other words, to "salvage" an over-wet dough at some point in the bulk ferment, I use white store-bought  flour.

7. Good oven spring on a boule or batard (ie, not a pan-loaf, like sandwich bread) generally requires under-fermenting. Do not let it rise (first or second rise) as much as you do with a loaf baked in a pan.  First rise (usually called bulk ferment) can be 30-50% increase.  2nd rise (usually called final proof) even less, depends on if you do it at room temp or in fridge.

Your mileage may vary.


Suggested reading:

About home-milled, from user "agres":

About home-milled from SeasideJess:

Avoiding/removing bugs:

Starch damage:

Sifting and multiple passes through your mill:

Easy sandwich loaf formulas:

Testing/comparing different varieties of home-milled wheat (just the comment, not the whole thread/post): 


The home-millers you would do good to follow on here are: SheGar, SeasideJess, danni3ll3, ifs201, agres, barryvabeach, DanAyo, MTloaf, dabrownman, pmccool, deblacksmith, UpsideDan, TopBun, albacore, .. with apologies to any others I missed.


Video about using fresh-milled flour with Nick Giusto of Central Milling and Pablo Giet.  They speak of several things I mention above such as fast fermentation and the enzymes.


Notable comments. See more below, in the comment section:

From MTLoaf:

2. [...] I like to use around 15% bread flour for more consistent results. Extra kneading will make the loaf lighter.

3. Sifting is worth the effort. Even if you are going to bake with all the brown bits because it oxygenates the flour and allows it to absorb the water better. Separating them with a #40 will collect about 5>7% and a #50 will get around 15%. The bran can be presoaked, used in a levin, toasted or used for other things. My chickens love a bran dough ball.

4. My personal preference with whole wheat is to error on the side of over hydrate because the bran will absorb moisture even after it has baked. The Approachable Loaf from the recent Community Bake here at TFL ( is 85 to 90% water and produces a Wonder Bread soft sandwich loaf. Say no to the brick.

5. Other grains like rye, spelt, white whole wheat, kamut are nice to have on hand. [...]

idaveindy's picture

I'm working on sourdough tortillas.  To reduce calories  I like the idea of sourdough to soften the tortilla instead of lots of oil.  

So far I'm experimenting, just measuring salt and baking soda, and eyeballing/guessing the rest.

l did remember to weigh the total resulting dough today, about 120 grams, and that was enough for 3 tortillas about 8 to 8.5" in diameter each.

So far I have... per 120 grams of total dough (3 tortillas):

- 1/8 tsp baking soda. (Previously tried 1/4 tsp, which was too much. will try 1/8 next time.)

- 1/8 tsp salt.

- 3/8 tsp regular olive oil.


My starter was only about 3 days old, and was kept in the fridge, taken out, not warmed up first. It's 100% hydration, in the past has always been fed with Bob's Red Mill All Purpose flour.   I did not plan on adding any water, but I added too much flour (same BRM AP), and so I had to add a few drops to get a soft dough.

I mixed the salt and baking soda in with the flour first, to ensure even distribution, before working the flour into the starter.

At 1/4 tsp baking soda (per 120 g total dough) I could taste the baking soda.  I'm using baking soda instead of baking powder because the sourdough starter is already acidic.


So... some of the "rise" or leavening action comes from the fermenting sourdough, as long as you leave it to ferment a bit, and some supposely comes from the heat/baking soda/acidic starter.

Today I cooked the tortillas soon after mixing the dough, and so the baking soda was enough to leaven it.  On a previous attempt, I gave the dough some time to ferment before cooking, and got a softer and more airy tortilla.  Sorry, I forgot the timing already.

I found that you do need at least some oil for a soft tortilla.  So far my oil-free tortillas are not flexible enough to use as wraps.

Also, don't cook the tortilla too long or it will stiffen and the skin gets too hard.


I cooked it on a fry pan/griddle at medium-low heat, 4 out of 10 on the electric burner, until there were brown spots on both sides.

 I let the tortillas sit covered a while after cooking so that the internal moisture would soften the outer skin.  A "tortillera" would be good for that.  You do that with  oil/lard based tortillas anyway.  

The sitting/softening process is important, or else the tortillas are too stiff to fold.

idaveindy's picture

After at least two years of using sourdough, I'm finally starting my own starter.   I half-heartedly tried once before, but I used a firm-starter/biga method and gave up after about 3 days.  That was way before I found TFL.

So yesterday...

Thursday, PM, I started two would-be cultures:  one using home-milled Kamut, and one using home-milled Hard Red Winter Wheat that had been hermetically sealed for about 12 years.

The Kamut was purchased in Oct 2018, so I suppose it could have been 2017 or 2018 harvest.  The HRWW was 2008 harvest, if my notes on the mylar pouch are correct. 

The liquid used is bottled spring water, with a few drops of orange juice in each glass, maybe 150% hydration.

Friday PM, 24 hours in, was the first addition of more water/flour, feeding with the same wheat, to compare side-by-side.

Saturday, PM, 48 hours since first mix. Fed Red the red wheat flour. Fed Kamut the Kamut flour.  Red has a funky bacterial smell. Kamut barely has  a flour-y wheat-y smell.  No rise.  Maybe, _maybe_ some bubbles, but those could be artifacts of mixng.

Sunday, AM:  66 hours (2-3/4 days) since first mix. We have lift-off !  (Could have been earlier, as I was late getting out of bed.)  Both at least doubled.   Looked even between the two.  

So...., it was mixing flour/water/OJ, plus two feedings, and Voi-la!  Rise amount was identical between the two.  Red still smells more funky.  Kamut went from plain flour-y wheat-y smell to a more "microbial" smell, but not as "funky" as Red.

I'm going to keep this small, so I discarded all but about 11 grams each, and fed 1 : 1 : 1.  

idaveindy's picture


American Indian fry bread.

Reproduced here in case the web site goes away.


Manataka American Indian Council



Blackfeet  Navajo 
Cherokee   Old Fashioned  
Creek   Osage
Chickasaw  Seminole


Old Fashioned

4 cups flour

2 tbsp. baking powder

1 tsp. salt

1/2 cup shortening

1 cup warm water

Mix flour, baking powder and salt. Gradually add in the shortening and water. Add only enough water to make dough stick together. Knead dough until smooth, make into fist-sized balls. Cover them with a towel for 10 minutes then pat them out into circles about the size of a pancake. Fry in hot cooking oil in cast iron skillet until brown on both sides. Drain on paper towels, serve with jam. 


1 pkg. dry yeast

3 cups warm water

1 tbsp. salt

1 tbsp. sugar

6 cups flour

2 tbsp. oil

1/2 cup cornmeal

Dissolve yeast in warm water then add salt and sugar. Let stand for 5 minutes covered with a towel.  Add flour and oil to liquid mixture.  Mix and put on floured bread board and knead until mixture is smooth.  Put dough in a greased bowl, cover with towel and let it rise for 1 1/2 hours. Remove from bowl and put on bread board, knead in the 1/2 cornmeal.  Make dough into 2 balls rolling each into 12 inch circles 1/2 inch thick.  Cut into 2 inch squares and drop into hot cooking oil.  (Works best with cast iron skillet.)  Fry 5 to 6 pieces at a time for only a few moments.  Drain on paper towel and sprinkle with white powdered sugar.  


4 cups flour

1 Tbsp. powdered milk

1 Tbsp. baking powder

1 tsp. salt 

11/2 cups warm water

Oil for frying 

Mix all dry ingredients thoroughly. Add water. Knead until soft, then set aside for one hour. Shape into small balls. Flatten each ball into a circle with or rolling pin or by hand. Fry in a skillet half-full of oil until golden brown on both sides. 


1 cup flour

1/2 tsp. salt

2 tsp. baking powder

3/4 cup milk

Mix ingredients adding more flour if necessary to make a stiff dough. Roll out the dough on a floured board till very thin. Cut into strips 2 X 3 inches and drop in hot cooking oil. Brown on both sides. Serve hot with honey. 


2 cups sifted flour

1/2 tsp. salt

4 tsp. baking powder

1 egg

1/2 cup warm milk

Stir first three ingredients then stir in the beaten egg. Add milk to make the dough soft. Roll it out on floured bread board, knead lightly. Roll dough out to 1/2 inch thick. Cut into strips 2 X 3 inches and slit the center. Drop into hot cooking oil and brown on both sides. Serve hot. 

Pumpkin Fry Bread

Add the following to the ingredients shown above to make Pumpkin Fry Bread

2 cups fresh pumpkin or 1-16oz. can pumpkin
1 tbsp. milk or water
3/4 cups brown sugar
1/4 tsp. cinnamon
1/4 tsp. nutmeg
1/4 tsp. vanilla

Drop into hot cooking oil and brown on both sides. Serve hot with butter or powdered sugar. 


2 cups flour

1 cup buttermilk

1 tbsp. baking powder

1/4 tsp. salt

Sift flour,salt and baking powder then add milk and more flour to make dough stiff. Roll out onto floured bread board and cut into 4 X 4 squares with a slit in the center. Fry in hot cooking oil until golden brown. Drain on plate with paper towels.

Navajo #1

1 C flour 

1 t baking powder 

1/4 C powdered milk 

1/4 t salt 

warm water 

Combine the ingredients and slowly add enough warm water to form dough. On a lightly floured surface, knead dough until it is smooth soft and not sticky. Cover and let rest 1 hour. Shape into small balls and pat into flat circles about 1/4-1/2 inch thick. Set aside.

In skillet, heat 1/2 inch vegetable oil. Brown dough circles on each side and drain on paper towels.

Serve with chile beans and your favorite taco toppings for "Navajo Tacos." 

Navajo #2

3 cups unbleached flour, sifted

1/2 cup dry powdered milk

1 Tbs. baking powder

1/2 tsp. salt

1/2 cup warm water or milk

2 quarts oil for deep frying

Combine the first 5 ingredients in a large mixing bowl and knead until smooth and soft, but not sticky. Depending on the altitude and humidity, you may need to adjust the liquid or the flour, so go slowly and balance accordingly.  Be careful not to overwork the dough, or it will become tough and chewy. Brush a tablespoon of oil over the finished dough and allow it to rest 20 minutes to 2 hours in a bowl covered with a damp cloth.  After the dough has rested, heat the oil in a broad, deep frying pan or kettle until it reaches a low boil (375º).  Pull off egg-sized balls of dough and quickly roll, pull, and path them out into large, plate-sized rounds.  They should be thin in the middle and about 1/4 inch thick at the edges.  Carefully ease each piece of flattened dough into the hot, boiling oil, one at a time.  Using a long-handled cooking fork or tongs, turn the dough one time.  Allow about 2 minutes cooking time per side.  When golden brown, lift from oil, shake gently to remove bulk of oil, and place on layered brown paper or paper towels to finish draining.

Serve hot with honey, jelly, fine powdered sugar, wojape, or various meat toppings.

The magic is in frying the bread quickly!  The hotter the oil, the less time it takes to cook.  The less time it takes to cook, the lighter the texture and lower the fat content.  


4 cups all purpose flour

2 tsp salt

1 tbsp and a half baking powder

1 tablespoon melted shortening

2 cups warm milk

Shortening for deep frying 

Sift flour, salt and baking powder into bowl. Stir in shortening and milk. Knead the dough into a ball. Roll out dough on lightly floured board. Cut into diamond shapes and slice a slit in the center.

Heat shortening in deep fryer to 370 degrees. Fry 2 or 3 at a time until golden brown on both sides. Drain on paper towels. 


2 cups flour

3 tsp. baking powder

1 tsp. salt

1 cup milk

Mix flour, baking powder and salt. Add milk gradually making sure the dough is stiff. Put on floured bread board and pat it out with your hands until it is 1/2 inch thick. Cut into strips with a slit in the center. Fry in hot oil until both sides are golden brown. 


Chickasaw, Creek, Cherokee, Old Fashioned, Osage, Seminole and Traditional recipes courtesy of Phil Konstantine,   

Blackfeet and Navajo recipes courtesy of


idaveindy's picture


American Indian fry bread.

Reproduced here in case the original web site goes away.



Frybread recipe


!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE  GREATEST FRY BREAD MIX IN THE WORLD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Courtsey of Mona Cliff--Nez Perce/Assiniboine

Makes fry bread for about 10 people. You can add or subtract cups depending on number in your company; adjust other ingredients as necessary.

4           cups of all purpose flour
1           teaspoon of baking powder per cup
1/2        teaspoon  sugar per cup
1/2        teaspoon  salt  per cup

*           powdered milk (easier to use)
             If you use regular milk, mix with water about 1/2 cup (so  you'll have 1/2 milk, 1 1/2cup water)

2           cups of water
             pan with a least 1 inch deep vegetable oil (or other oils). Enough to fry bread, enit?

Start with flour in large bowl. 

* Pour powdered milk in an even thin layer over all of flour.

Add other dry ingredients. Mix dry ingredients well.

Now push to side of the bowl, add 2 cups of water (or milk/water), stir until you have a good looking dough.

Cover and let rise for 1/2 of an hour or more. Dough should rise back if you touch it.

While dough is rising, heat oil between medium high and high. It takes a while so be patient. To test oil break off a a little ball of dough and drop into oil, dough should rise fairly quickly, then brown at a nice pace.

If oil is  ready, flour your hands, break of a golf ball size of dough, stretch to desired thickness, put a little  hole in the middle and fry till bread is golden brown.  

Tips my grandma taught me ( and a winkte from Nevada)

1.   Never add water while in the process of  mixing ( your bread will come out tough):  instead when you add your water  add a little  more water than you need ( so add 2 1/4 cups of water)  then while mixing ADD flour to get your dough just right.

2.   When mixing dough don't stir & stir & stir, instead stir until most  of dry ingredients look doughy then put spoon to the side and fold the bottom of bread to the top, if your dough is still too wet, sprinkle some flour over wet dough pat it in, and fold over again till your dough is uuuhhh nice and doughy (consistency of pizza dough or pre-baked bread).  I only make the stuff,  I' ve never explained it before.

3. When you are frying the bread don't use too much flour on your hands, the flour settles on the bottom of the pan. When you cook for long periods of time your flour could burn thus making your bread taste bad.

4. Don't turn bread in the pan too much it stirs up all the flour in the bottom, like the bottom of a lake.

5. When browning the bread, turn it over when the edges in the middle and the side are nice and brown.

6. You'll know your oil is too hot if you just put your dough in and it comes out dark brown in 3 seconds . Turn your stove down, wait for awhile and throw a tester in there again till the oil is right, if oil is too cold your dough will not rise to the top and if it takes longer than 10 seconds to brown turn it up, so on and so forth. These are not precise times, you'll have to wing it till you try a couple of times, get some feed back from some real fry bread eaters then get at it on your own. Enjoy.

idaveindy's picture

March 19/20, 2020.

Inspired by this conversation,  to do just a plain simple instant yeast formula, with overnight bulk ferment.

5:05 pm. Mix 469 g water, 586 g home-milled whole grain flour. 80.0% hydration. (In hindsight should have used 85%.)  1 tsp of caraway seeds.  Flour was a mix of Prairie Gold (Hard white spring),  Hard Red Winter (generic), and Kamut Khorasan.

6:00 pm. Added 25 g water.

[  58 minutes soak/autolyse ] 

 6:03 pm. Folded in 1/8 tsp instant dry yeast.  Static electricity picked up extra, which was included in the mix.  Weighed 1/8 tsp, with static extra, later. .5 grams. .0853 % (Scale is only accurate to +- .1 gram anyway.) 

6:05 pm. Folded in 23 g water.  ( 517 g water so far. 88.2% hydration.)

6:54 pm. added 11.7 g salt, and 12 g water.  ( 529 g water so far. 90.2% hydration.) 

Total dough weight = 586 + 529 + 11 = 1126 g (not counting caraway seeds.) = 2.47 pounds.

Did some stretch and folds.

6:05 am. preheat oven to *240/220 F.

   [ 12 hours, 11 minutes bulk ferment. ]   

6:14am to 6:19 am.  Shape and put in lined and floured banneton, 8.0" inner diameter at rim.

7:01 am.  Pre heat oven to 495/475 F.

   [ 75 minutes proof. ]    

7:29 am.  Bake in covered Lodge 3.2 combo cooker, in the deep part, 495/475, covered.  15 min.

7:44 am. continue bake, covered, 450/430 F. 15 min.

7:59 am. Uncover. Bake at 410/390 F. 15 min.

8:14 am. Take temp, 207.7 F.   Continue baking, uncovered, 410/390.  5 min.

8:19 am. Take temp, 208.4.  Call it done.

Virtually no oven rise.  Cut open after 4 hours.  Nice  crumb for commercial yeast.

* First number is thermostat setting, second number is actual.



-- Needed more soak, less bulk ferment.  Could have proofed less too, just enough time to preheat oven.  2 hours more soak, 2 hours less ferment would have been good.  1/8 tsp yeast was too much for this 12 hour ferment of 100% WW home-milled.

-- 90% hydration was too slack. Next time, use 85% for soak.  And add 2.5 to 3 % water with the salt.  Maybe just add the salt right after the yeast.

-- Crumb was not too moist,

idaveindy's picture

Had a late start, and ran low on starter. Should have added some instant dry yeast to speed things up.

Goal: 1200 gram (weight before baking) boule.

12:37 pm. Mix 50 g chunks of Prairie Gold (HWSW) retentate from #20 sieve, 357 g home-milled PG, 93 g home-milled hard red winter wheat from Whole Foods, 86 g home-milled Kamut, (586 g total flour/chunks), 3/16ths tablet of 500 mg tablet of vitamin C, 469 g bottled spring water.

[ 1 hour 52 minutes autolyze. ]

2:45 pm.  Mix in 80 g starter (wanted to do 88 g, but ran low), 10 g water, with stretch and folds. Starter at 100% hydration, all Kroger AP flour.

4:00 pm. Added in 20 g water, and 12 g salt, with dimpling and stretch and folds.

Total flour: 586 + 40 = 626.  % ww: 586/626 = 93.6%.  %prefermented flour = 40/626 = 6.4%

% hydration: ( 469 + 40 in starter + 10 + 20 ) / 626 = 539 / 626 = 86.1%

Total dough weight, not counting oats = 539 + 626 + 12 = 1177 grams. 

4:42 pm. Stretch and fold.

5:22 pm. Stretch and fold.

[ 4 hours 15 minutes bulk, in warmed oven, maybe 75 F. ] 

7:00 pm.  Fold and shape. Sprinkled top with oat flakes (old fashioned oats), put in lined and floured banneton, 8" inner diameter at rim.

7:35 pm. Started to preheat oven, with Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker inside, uncovered, *495/475 F.

[ 1 hour 30 minutes proof. ]

Using pot part of combo cooker, 8" inner dia at base, oiled, sprinkled with corn meal, then a circular cut layer of baking parchment, then more corn meal.

8:30 pm, Bake, 495/475 F, covered, 5 min.

8:35 pm. Bake, 475/455 F, covered, 5 min.

8:40 pm. Bake  445/425 F, covered, 20 min.

9:00 pm. Bake, 410/390 F, uncovered, 15 min.

9:15 pm, internal temp 209.0 F.  Bake, 410/390 F, uncovered, 5 min.

9:20 pm, internal temp 209.3 F.  Bake, 410/390 F, uncovered, 5 min.

9:25 pm, internal temp 209.5 F.  Call it done.

* First number is the oven thermostat setting, second number is actual temp according to thermometer.

Cut open next morning.  Crumb not as open as previous bake.  Could have used longer autolyze/soak, and longer ferment.  Taste improved in evening.


idaveindy's picture

Jan 21, 2020.  17th TFL bake.  Best so far.

Goal:  1200 g boule (fits in 1 gallon storage zipper bag), 90% home-milled flour, 10% AP flour, try more autolyse, reduce amount of Kamut, increase autolyse/soak, short ferment (not overnight).

9:15 am: Mix 354 g Prairie Gold HWSW, 91 g Kamut, 91 g HRWW, all home-milled, 429 g bottled spring water, 1/8 tablet of a 500 mg vitamin C tablet (approx 62.5 mg).

 429 / ( 354 + 91 + 91 ) =  429 / 536 = 80% hydration.

~~ [1 hour, 55 minute autolyse/soak.]

11:10 am: Mix in: 40 g water, 50 gr King Arthur AP flour, 97 g of 125% hydration cold starter (last fed yesterday).

97 g of 125% starter = 44 g flour + 53 g water.   Assume 13 g of flour in starter is AP flour.

PPF:  44 / (536 + 50 + 44) = 44 / 630 = 7.0 %.  High enough for a same day bulk ferment and proof.  7% is high for a mostly whole-grain dough that has been autolysed for a while.

Percent white flour ( 50 + 13 in starter ) / 630 = 10% white flour.  ~~ 90% home-milled whole grain.

PPM Vitamin C: 62.5 mg / 630 g = 99.2 parts per million.  

11:45 am: Slowly mix in 20 g water, and 12.0 g Himalayan salt, via stretch and folds.  Dough becomes very stiff due to salt, but it will slacken.

Total hydration so far:  ( 429 + 40 + 53 in starter + 20 with the salt) / ( 536 + 50 + 44 ) = 542 / 630 = 86%. 

11:50 am: finish adding salt and water. 

12:19 pm: Stretch and fold.

12:54 pm: Stretch and fold.

1:54 pm: Stretch and fold.

2:55 pm: Stretch and fold.

~~[5 hrs, 7 min bulk ferment.] 

4:17 pm: Letter fold and shape on an AP flour-dusted surface.  Did a better job of stretching skin of boule than before, dragging boule across the surface to develop tension. Dusted 8.7" O.D. linen-lined banneton with tapioca flour and brown rice flour. Slightly wetted top of boule with water and spread soaked chunks of bran that had been sifted (#20 mesh) from milling process. Shouldn't have soaked the bran chunks. Flipped into banneton so the seam side was up, and dusted the now upper side (seam side) of boule. 

Immediately did finger poke test, and it seemed it was ready to bake!  So, it had too long of a bulk ferment, and therefore I used too much starter.

Immediately started preheat of oven to *495/475 F  and also Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker.

(Had to adjust bake timings a bit due to doing laundry, not wanting to let laundry occupy community dryers too long.)

Oiled and lightly dusted with corn meal, the deep pot part of the cooker. Sprinkled corn meal on seam side of boule and covered boule with a circle of parchment paper. Inverted pot over banneton and flipped them over.  Scored the boule in a double X, or 8 legged asterisk, all cuts converging in the center top.

~~[1 hour, 3 min final proof.]  

5:20 pm: Bake, covered, *495/475 F, 5 min.

5:25 pm: Bake, covered, 475/455 F, 5 min.

5:30 pm: Bake, covered, 430/410 F, 20 min.

Success!  Oven spring!  All legs of the 8-point asterisk scoring opened well. No "ears" because it was a vertical cut.

5:50 pm: Bake, uncovered, 400/380 F, 11 min. 

It didn't look like it was browning fast enough so raised temp.

6:01 pm: Bake, uncovered  410/390 F, 10 min.

It didn't look like it was browning fast enough so raised temp again.

6:11 pm: Bake, uncovered, 420/400 F, 6 min.

6:17 pm: Done. Internal temp 209.7 F.

* First number is the oven's thermostat setting, second number is actual. 

~~ Total bake: 57 minutes.

Very light crumb. BEST BAKE SO FAR.  And my friend who likes white bread even liked it.  Looked so good I cut it open after cooling two hours. Normally have to wait 20 hours to improve flavor.

Forgot to take photos of crumb. Will post other photos when I get a new computer.

idaveindy's picture

Oval banneton, 10x6x4, with liner:

Oval banneton, 11", with liner:

Round banneton, 11.8", with liner:


Round banneton, 12", Brick Oven Baker:

Oval, high, 10", Brick Oven Baker:


80+ types of flour at General Mills:

Of note to bread and pizza bakers:

See right side for form to locate a distributor based on zip code.


To get more tang, and lactic vs acetic:


addendum, other references

King Arthur professional flour, mostly 50 lb bags:

Explanation of various types of rye flour, and dark vs whole:

Volume to weight conversion chart:

Caputo (mill in Naples, Italy):

Moul Bie:

US distributor of Caputo/All Trumps / mail order/ repacks:

Brick Oven Baker's explanation of Caputo Flours:

Central Milling (Utah):

Keith Giusto Bakery Supply, KGBS, Petaluma CA, part of Central Milling:

Explanation of W, PL, ash%, extraction, Italian/French/German/US specification systems:

Bread Bakers' Guild of America, formatting formulas:

Comparison of KitchenAid Mixers:

Panman's How to clean and season cast iron:

Guide to GF binders:

How butter, sugar, eggs hydrate flour:


Favorite tortilla: or  - don't use all the water. Or

GF Mix, Polar flat bread:

naan with yeast:

Mark Bittman's pizza dough:



TFL users:



The Roadside Pie King (Will F.):



_JC_ :


Steve Gamelin, no-knead but with yeast, not sourdough. His extremely simple method got me out of the bread machine, and into artisan/no-knead bread. A big round of applause for him. If you want K.I.S.S., this is it:

Bake with Jack:

Full Proof Baking, Kristen Dennis:

Joshua Weissman:

Jeff Hertzberg & Zoe François of Bread in 5 minutes/day fame:

Jeff's own channel:

Peter Reinhart on the TenSpeedPress channel:

Ken Forkish (FWSY and Elements of Pizza):

King Arthur Flour (Jeff Hamelman & Martin Philip):



Trevor J. Wilson:

Trevor's website:

Stanley Ginsberg:

Sourdough Journey channel:

Northwest Sourdough, with Teresa Greenway:

or by playlist:

Proof Bread:

Bread by Joy Ride coffee:


idaveindy's picture

It was a cold blustery day, and I felt like some comfort food.  

Daniel Leader's book "Simply Great Breads" has a formula for yeast-raised fry bread.  

Years ago, I learned a simple way to make fry bread, without any leavening agent, just plain AP flour, salt, water, and powdered milk.  As the moisture steams/boils off, it sufficiently aerates the dough.  But I had forgotten the exact recipe.  Lightly dust with sugar while the oil is still wet on the fried bun.

"Fry bread" is not taking a piece of bread and frying it.  That would be toast. 

"Fry bread" is taking a piece of dough, usually in the form of a disc, and deep frying it, or pan-frying in a sufficient layer of oil/fat to approximate deep frying.

Using baking powder, yeast, or sourdough starter, makes an even fluffier piece of fry bread.

The trick is to not use too much leavening agent, and don't let it rise too long if using yeast/sourdough.  Too much will create a too big pocket of air.

I used mostly home-milled whole-grain flour.  It still worked well, as I let the dough sit a while to fully hydrate.

375 F seems to be a good temp.  I don't have a controlled temperature fryer.  I just used a wok and a thermometer. Setting 4 on the electric burner's control dial seems to maintain 375 F. But adding the room temp dough drops the oil's temp quickly, so I was almost constantly fiddling with the dial, usually starting by getting the oil up to 400/425 F right before putting the dough in the oil.

I made enough dough for four pieces, intending to eat two and save two for later.  I ended up eating all four.  Such is the danger of comfort food.

My hood fan over the stove merely filters the air, it does not vent to the outside.  So the oil frying smell lingered for a day or so.


I have one of those circular  "turbo convection ovens", which is the predecessor of the "air fryer."  It's a big glass bowl with the fan and heating element built into the lid.  I might try that to make fry bread.


Subscribe to RSS - idaveindy's blog