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idaveindy's picture

May 15, 2021. #48.

This was a repeat of my last bake, which was way over-fermented and had collapsed. This time I used 1/2 tsp of instant dry yeast instead of 1 tsp. And this time I measured the chia and the water for it.

405 g Patel brand stone-ground whole wheat durum.

45 g Arrowhead Mills Organic AP flour.

8.5 g salt.

350 g bottled spring water.

Mixed by hand using a silicone scraper.

In a separate bowl, combined 23.2 g whole dry chia seeds, and 46.6 g water and let soak.

Added 1/2 tsp instant dry yeast to the dough, and mixed.

After mixing in the yeast, the chia had soaked up the water, so I then mixed that into the dough.

I set the bread machine to the whole wheat setting and light crust, and put the pre-mixed dough into the machine.

Last time I let the salted but un-yeasted dough soak for a few hours, this time I did not. But both times the dough was mixed outside the bread machine before the cycle began.


There was still a little collapse, but not as hilarious as before. So, I'll try 3/8's tsp yeast next time.

The bread is not as sweet as before either, so next attempt will include a soak, as before, to let the enzymes make sugar from the starch.


The collapse isn't noticeable in the slices at the end of the loaf:

idaveindy's picture

May 11, 2021.

This is a bread-machine bake.

405 g Patel brand stone-ground WW durum.

45 g Arrowhead Mills organic AP.

8.5 g of salt.

350 g bottled spring water.

Mixed by hand in a bowl, and let soak 3 hours in fridge.

Slowly kneaded in, by hand, 1 tsp instant dry yeast.

Put in bread machine on Whole Wheat setting.

Dribbled in 19 g more water.

Used a silicone scraper to help the dough along.

During first knead phase threw in some dry whole poppy seeds. Did not measure. Then threw in some dry whole chia seeds, did not measure.

Oops, those seeds need some water, so dribbled in more water, did not measure.

Oops, too wet, threw in about a tsp more of AP flour.

Dough seems a litttle loose, but it's moving around and getting kneaded well.

Dough gets really high during second rise.

Dough collapses before the bake cycle is half-way through.

At finish, there is a deep well in the top of the bread. Top crust indicates too much water was used.  Sides and bottom are well crusted.

Atter cooling, I can't resist and pull off parts of the upper crown or rim. Doesn't taste bad. Put in plastic zipper bag over night.

Next day, bread tastes even better. Crumb shows over-fermentation too, as if the collapse wasn't enough evidence.

The photos were taken after I pulled off and ate the upper rim.

The lower hole is where the bread machine paddle was removed.


idaveindy's picture

May 6, 2021.


10:35 am. Mix (by hand/spatula) to homogeneity:  (Thank you, Mariana, for that phrase.)

10:42 am. Put it in the fridge.

3:55 pm.  Take out of fridge. Mix in 40 g cold starter, last fed 3 days ago, 100% hydration. 

4:00 pm. Mix/knead in (by hand) 25 grams more water. I just went by feel to determine the amount.

4:00 - 4:15 pm. Knead by hand.

4:35 - 7:42 pm. Did various stretch and folds, at least 5, maybe up to 7.

8:45 pm. Put dough in lined 8" inner-diameter banneton. Liner was just a thin "flour sack" style tea-towel, doubled over, dusted with 50/50 mix of white rice flour and AP flour.

8:50 pm. Covered, placed in plastic shopping bag, put in fridge.

May 7, 2021.

7:45 am. Remove from fridge and bag. Not any noticeable expansion. Leave at room temp until time to bake.

7:50 am.  Start oven preheat to 475/450* F.  With Lodge 3.2 qt combo-cooker on 3rd rack up from bottom. Bottom rack has a 14" cordierite pizza stone, 1/4" thick, to block radiant heat from the bottom heating element.

8:24 am. Desired oven temp reached.  Give it about 10 more minutes for combo-cooker to achieve desired temp.

8:35 am. Sprinkle corn meal on surface of dough as it sits in banneton. Place 8.5" circle of parchment paper on top of corn meal. Invert the deep pot half of combo cooker over the banneton. Invert banneton and pot together so dough falls in. Remove banneton from pot. Cornmeal and parchment paper now insulate the bottom of the dough from the pot. Dust/scrape off excess rice-and-AP-flour from top of dough.  Score a plus sign with a bare double edged razor blade.  The dry "skin" on the dough is noticeable, and you can see the wetter inside. This will make for a nice oven bloom.

Previous experience showed that the crust of whole grain durum loaves, which had soaked/autolysed for multiple hours, carmelized too much when initial baking temp started at 475/450. So this time, I'll start at 450/425*.

8:39 am. Bake covered, 450/425* F. 15 minutes.

8:54 am. Bake covered, 425/400* F.  22 minutes.

9:16 am. Nice oven bloom!

9:16 am. Bake uncovered, 425/400*.  14 minutes. 

9:30 am. Crust and ears look browned just right.

Internal temp: 208.8 F.  Passes thump test.

* First number is oven thermostat setting, second is actual.


Paper plate is 9" in diameter.



idaveindy's picture

May 1, 2021.

This was an experiment to see if a 1000 g 93% WW dough could be baked in my low profile toaster oven.

I used a 10.25" diameter Lodge cast iron pan with two short handles.

I took out the toaster oven's rack, and used a smaller 7" diameter Lodge cast iron serving griddle/plate as a stand-off to hold the 10.25" pan off/above the heating elements' shields.

I baked it for 11 minutes at 450 F, and 23  min at 400 F, with bottom heat. Then 7 minutes at 400 F with bottom and top heat to brown the top.

The bottom was burned, and the rest slightly undercooked/wet. I did not bake off enough water,

I had rushed things, and it was underfermented too.  It was edible, but not pleasant.

The geese on the canal in Broad Ripple liked it.

idaveindy's picture

First loaf-bread bake with Patel's house brand 100% WW stone ground durum. For a picture of the bag, see here:

It was $7.99 for a 20-pound bag, $.40/pound.  Ingredient list is just "durum whole wheat."  No enrichments.

I've done tortillas, pizza crust (didn't let it autolyse/soak enough), and noodles, but this was the first loaf bread with this flour.

I learned from using the Sher Fiber Wala (from Brar Mills) 100% whole grain roller-milled flour, that WW durum takes a while to absorb the water -- and now even more so with the grittier stone ground flour.

Patel brand stone ground WW durum is not as gritty as semolina. Semolina has bigger particle sizes than this: and semolina is only about .8% ash, whereas whole grain durum is about 1.6% ash.

So I planned a long autolyse/soak, with salt, but no yeast/levain. It ended up being 4 hours and 50 minutes before I added instant dry yeast. This was at room temp, about 72 F.

I started out with 520 grams of the stone-ground WW durum, 2% salt, and 70% water.

After 2 hours I slowly added more water, 2% at a time, kneaded it in, until I got to 88% hydration.

I could still feel some mild grittiness, so more autolyse could have worked.

Then I added the 1/4 tsp instant dry yeast, folded it in, and added 1% more water for a total of 89%.

Bulk ferment (first rise)  was about 3.5 hours. I did a few stretch and folds. 

At some point during bulk ferment, the grittiness was gone.

I folded it and put it in a lined and dusted 8" inner-diameter banneton for final proof.

Final proof was about 1 hour, sitting a few inches above the stove-top while oven preheated. Noticeable dough expansion.

Preheated oven and Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker to 465 F.

Oiled deep pot part of combo cooker and sprinkled in some semolina.

Put a round piece of parchment paper over the dough in the banneton. Inverted the Lodge pot over the banneton and filpped them both over. Then removed banneton.

Scored dough with a bare razor blade.

Baked covered at 450 F for 10 minutes.

Baked covered at 425 F for 10 minutes.

Baked covered at 400 F for 10 minutes.

Uncovered. Only mild oven spring and expansion of the score. Crust was already kind of dark.

Baked uncovered at 400 F for 10 minutes.

Internal temp 209.5 F.  Thump sound on underside was good.  Heft indicated if was not overly dense.


You can tell from the look of the crust that the dough was wet.  I let it cool one hour, before putting in a sealed plastic bag. 

By the next morning, the crust had softened up beautifully.  There is a slightly sweet burnt taste to the crust. And the crumb is kind of bland tasting, but is very soft.

This is a wonderful dipping bread, or to flavor with toppings. 

I'll have to think what kind of bread spices or flavoring to make the crumb taste better next time, or whether to leave it bland, or to mix with other flour.

This should be a good pizza crust flour if you have time for a long autolyse/soak.


idaveindy's picture

April 9, 2021.

This was a SOT-SOT* bake, with nothing measured except stevia, Sucralose, guar gum, and baking powder.  They came out really good, so I wish I had measured.


My rules of thumb for muffins:  1. use about 1 tsp baking powder per cup of dry ingredients. 2. Hydrate to a thick batter, that spreads out some, but not completely flat on top. 

  • Blanched almond flour.
  • shredded coconut.
  • durum semolina, the gritty stuff.
  • Bob's Red Mill stone ground whole wheat flour.
  • Fiber Wala whole grain durum flour (fine, not gritty) from Brar Mills.
  • King Arthur bread flour.
  • Yellow corn meal, the gritty stuff.
  • Quick oats (not instant.)
  • Whole dry chia seeds.
  • ground flax seeds, dry, not soaked.
  • pre-roasted sunflower seeds, salted, not soaked.
  • dry poppy seeds.
  • whole anise seeds.
  • whole fennel seeds.
  • brown raw dry sesame seeds.
  • pumpkin pie spice.
  • ground cinnamon.
  • ground ginger.
  • salt.
  • Jaggery (Raw brown sugar from India.)
  • 1 tbsp stevia for baking, equiv in sweetness  to 1 tbsp white sugar.
  • 2 packets Sucralose, equiv in sweetness to 4 tsp white sugar.
  • 2 tsp Rumsford baking powder, no aluminum.
  • 1/4 tsp guar gum.
  • approx 1 tsp coarse ground psyllium, from India.
  • Powdered skim milk dissolved in water.
  • water.
  • MCT oil from coconuts. It was on sale for a ridiculously low price, equivalent to regular coconut oil, so I took advantage of the sale.
  • grapeseed oil.

After mixing the dry ingredients, I added water/milk to get to the consistency that I'm used to, then let it rest so the ingredients could soak up the water. 

I let it rest about 30 minutes, then added more water, stirred, then added oil. Then I think I let it rest more to absorb what was added.

I believe it important to add water before adding oil to let the grains and seeds hydrate a little.

Baked in paper muffin cups in a muffin tin, in a toaster oven.  Preheated to 400 degrees F, and baked at 400 F about 12 minutes with bottom-heat only, then about 10 minutes with both bottom and top heat until tops were browned.



*Some of this, some of that.

idaveindy's picture

March 31 - April 1, 2021.

(Paper plate is 9" in diameter.)

  1. 198 g Bob's Red Mill stone ground whole wheat.  37.8% of 523 g.
  2. 198 g whole grain durum "Fiber Wala" from Sher Brar Mills.  37.8%
  3. 303 g bottled spring water
  4. approx 50 mg vitamin C. 50mg/523g=95 ppm.
  5. soaked approx 6 hours.
  6. 60 g Durum flour from Golden Temple, white/red bag. This has some bran, but is not whole grain.  11.5%.
  7. 50 g King Arthur Bread flour. 9.6%
  8. 73 g bottled spring water.
  9. 10.5 g salt. 2%.
  10. 5 g nutritional yeast. .96%
  11. 35 g cold starter, 100% hydration, 2 days since fed. 3.3% PFF.
  12. 198+198+60+50+17= 523 total flour
  13. 303+73+17= 393 H2O. 
  14. 393/523=75.1% hydration.
  15. 25 g whole dry chia seeds. 4.8%.
  16. ferment 9 hours, in oven with light on.
  17. fold/shape/banneton, 6 hours in fridge.
  18. flip from banneton into Lodge combo cooker.
  19. bake covered, *475/450, 15 min.
  20. bake covered, 450/425, 15 min.
  21. bake uncovered, 425/400, 15 min.

 *First number is oven setting, second number is actual temperature, Fahrenheit.


idaveindy's picture

March 20, 2021.


idaveindy's picture

March 16, 2021.

I didn't get around to taking pictures of the loaf. But I wanted to share the baking set-up.  This was the first time that I've used an inverted bowl to steam.

I used a 15" Lodge cast iron skillet. 15" is the outer diameter at the upper rim. It has a 12-1/4" inside diameter at the inside bottom.  I bought it new on Amazon when it was on sale for $40, including shipping.

The Lodge 15" skillet fits in my American 30" outer-width oven. Inside oven width is about 23".

I used a 14-7/8" diameter cordierite pizza stone to shade the skillet from the radiant heat of the lower electric heating element.  I use this same pizza stone with my Lodge 3.2 quart combo cooker. I always put it on a rack one position lower than the baking vessel, so the baking vessel is not sitting on the stone.

The banneton is 11-7/8" outside diameter at the rim, and 11-1/4" inside diameter at the rim. Bannetons are listed by outside diameter on Amazon, so figure that the inner diameter is  5/8" or about .6" less than outer diameter.

The steel bowl is 12-3/8" outside diameter at the rim, and 11-3/4" inside diameter at the rim.  So it sits on the sloped sides of the skillet, just barely above the flat inner bottom.  The bowl surface is shiny/polished (not the dull "burnish" if that's the word) inside and out. I likely purchased it at Big Lots or an Indian grocery store. 

My dough did not fill the inner diameter of the banneton. So comparing the dimensions, I figured if the dough did not spread too much, it would not touch the sides of the steel bowl.

As usual, I didn't get  the vertical loft that I wanted but the # style scoring opened well, and the crumb was decent.

The dough mass weighed 2040 grams, 4.497 pounds,  right before putting it in the banneton. It picked up some rice and bread flour from the banneton, and I sprinkled some durum semolina onto what would be the bottom of the loaf. Though it lost moisture during final proofing.

The loaf weighed 1847 grams, 4.140 pounds, about 1/2 hour after baking. 

It was my biggest loaf so far. I now wish I had photographed it.

idaveindy's picture

(From comments to another user.)

I too experienced what you call the bubble gum effect. I called it "gooey gluey paste".

If I may...:

There are three steps needed:

1. don't give it all the hydration at once. If you give it all the water at once, the finer particles or the bran locks up the water, and it will never leave the glue state.  However, even with the lower hydration, it will be gummy/gluey, but only temporarily so.

My WW durum (store bought, roller milled, Sher Fiber Wala) is like this:

a) if I give it 85% water up front, it becomes _permanent_ gluey paste. Nothing will then change it to workable _dough_.

b) If I give it 77% water up front, it becomes gluey paste (bubble gum), but in about 3 hours it absorbs the water and becomes workable dough, to which I can add 12% more water in 3 steps of 4% each.

2. Wait 3 to 8 hours. Durum is glassy, glass-like, aka vitreous, which slows water absorption. Its flour is not powdery like wheat, it is glass-like shards. Tiny shards, but not a "powder" like red or white wheat. 

3.  Add the final water slowly, in 2 or 3 steps, or it will enter permanent glue state again.  Add, wait, add, wait, add, wait.


I think you are possibly operating under three misunderstandings:

1. What you are sifting out might not be the bran.  The seive only knows the size of the particles, not where they come from. What if the larger particles are the hard glass-like endosperm, and the small particles are the more easily broken down and softer bran?

Suggestion: don't sift, at least for now.  Sifting is just adding another variable.

Durum is not the same species as wheat.    same genus, different species.  NOT just a different variety/strain like red/white or hard/soft.    Therefore..... as we learn to use it, all assumptions about how the flour should behave have to be abandonded because it is not "common wheat".  It is Triticum Turgidum Durum, not Triticum Aestivum.

Therefore, don't assume  that what is retained in the seive is mostly bran, or most of the bran.   

In other words:  Durum does not and can not mill and break down like red/white wheat because it is not red/white wheat.  It is a different species of plant.

2. To get rid of the gummy gluey paste, the solution is not less water. The solution is time time time, and more water added slowly in stages.

3. Being whole grain, the flour you and I are working with needs more water than the other bakers who are using endosperm-only durum.  Our hydration will need to be in the 85% to 90% range.

Side note: semolina and semolina rimacinata does not behave like this, so the "culprit" must be the bran.  The bran is somehow interfering with how our flour hydrates, so we need to figure out a different approach to how we hydrate our whole grain durum.

Note:  bran absorbs water differently (different speed and different amount) than endosperm.  You already know this:  WW just hydrates and handles differently than white endosperm-only flour.

again, Note: Durum bran is going to behave differently than red/white wheat bran. If durum is not red/white wheat, then durum bran is likewise not red/white bran.  How is it different?  Let's abandon assumptions and explore!

(the first assumption to abandon is that what was retained in the seive is bran. So to simplify, do.... not..... sift.)

I think I figured this out with Kamut which is closer to durum than to red/white wheat. Kamut is also vitreous / glassy like durum.

I have made home-milled Kamut, but not durum.

And what made my home milled Kamut "bakeable" for me was.... soak time.


Your stone ground whole grain durum will have larger particles than my roller milled whole grain durum.  So... that initial wait time after you add the first water at  77% could be as high as 8 hours as opposed to my 3 hours for roller milled whole grain durum.


What I suggest is ___establish a hydration baselne__, like how I discovered my 77%.

Take 4 bowls. Put 100 grams unsifted durum, and 2 grams salt, in each.  Hydrate each one differently: 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%.  

Cover and let stand 8 to 12 hours.  Then... knead each sample... and see which ones are now workable dough, and which ones are still gluey paste.

The highest hydration that is workable dough is your first iteration or approximation of a baseline.

Forget, toss out, the higher hydration samples that are still gluey after the 8 hours. In my experience, something happens, where you can't "undo" the gluey nature. Again, the notion that we can "correct" the glue situation by adding flour ..... comes from our experience with red/white wheat, and durum is just not going to act like red/white wheat.  (Maybe there is a "fix", but I haven't discovered it yet.)

Now... Add 4 grams water to the lower hydration samples that became workable dough.

The samples will all likely turn to gluey paste, which happens to me.  but as before... give them time. Say 45 minutes.

The question now becomes....  how high hydration can you go and still have the "paste" revert to "workable dough" after giving it time to absorb?

so.... 77%, wait 8 hours, add 4%, wait 45 minutes, add 4%, wait 45 minutes.

But now, don't throw out anything that is still paste after 45 minutes. Just set it aside and see if it just needs more time. Your magic wait period might be 60 minutes.

My answer for roller milled flour is 30 min wait times and a max 92%.  But I can still get a good loaf at 89%, which is what I shoot for now.

Yours could be more or less, as your durum grain might have more or less native moisture.  And your time-to-absorb will be be longer than mine due to home-milling likely creating larger particles than roller-milled.



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