First bake with rye. Feedback please and outstanding questions.
500g flour weight. 25% rye. 45% organic sprouted Anita's ww. 25% Bob's bread flour.
78% hydr. 16% fermented flour. 100% hydration. 1.8% salt. 45m autolyse. 2:45m bulk. 25m bench-rest. 30m counter proof. 19hr retard at 3c. Baked cold, preheated DO at 475 for 20, 430 uncovered for 20, 400 for 5. Cooled for 6 hours.
My first time baking with rye. Starter was 100% rye. Noticeable difference in starter smell--much sweeter.
I actually could not taste much difference in this bake compared to a similar loaf with no rye. Maybe my taste buds just aren't finely tuned. I tried both as bread and toast.
Questions
1. Any thoughts on my process?
2. What could I tweak for more complex, pronounced flavour?
3. Bulk gave the loaf about a 30% size increase. Do you think more would be better for this dough?
Thanks for the thoughts.
Overall looks like a nice loaf that was well-baked.
"1. Any thoughts on my process?"
Somewhere during the bulk fermentation I assume you included some stretch-and-fold sessions.
"2. What could I tweak for more complex, pronounced flavour?"
How do you maintain your starter? Lowering the hydration can impact the flavor imparted by the starter. A longer bulk fermentation can have an effect too.
"3. Bulk gave the loaf about a 30% size increase. Do you think more would be better for this dough?"
The length of time for a bulk fermentation is heavily influenced by the temperature of (a) the dough just after the initial mixing and (b) the environment in which the dough is sitting. The easiest way to affect the dough temperature is to adjust the temperature of the water used in the initial mixing. (Look online for the temperature formula, which I use nearly every time that I bake.) Also, if your kitchen is warm, the bulk fermentation will proceed more quickly than if it is cold. In general, for a pure sourdough bread (i.e.., no additional commercial yeast), a bulk fermentation under three hours suggests a fairly warm kitchen or a very active starter.
The flavors added by the ww flour might be overpowering the rye. I typically use 15% rye and no ww, and I can taste the rye. You might experiment with little/no ww and see if you can taste the rye.
You don't say what kind of rye flour you used. If it was white rye or even medium rye, you will get less rye flavor than using whole grain rye. Note: Sometimes "Dark Rye" is whole grain and sometimes it isn't. Read the packaging well.
I commonly use around 25% rye in sourdough breads. It adds to the flavor complexity, but the distinctive rye earthiness doesn't come through. I start to taste it at around 40%, but if you really want a rye bread flavor, you need to go to about 70% rye. Here's a formula I particularly enjoy:
Hansjoakim's Favorite 70% Sourdough Rye
Happy baking!
David
Hi David,
Thanks for the input. The recipe that you linked uses medium rye flour, and in your comment you mentioned that whole rye is needed for the full flavor of rye. Would you still use medium rye flour for Hansjoakim's bread?
Ted
Hi, Ted.
One handicap we have in the U.S. of A. compared to France and Germany is the imprecision of our flour terminology.
Hansjoakim's 70% rye is very flavorful when made with King Arthur Flour "Medium Rye." I would expect it to be even more strongly rye flavored with whole rye.
Another "medium rye" I would trust is that from Central Milling. They expressly state it is their attempt to replicate German 1050 rye flour, a high-extraction rye. I have used it in a 90% rye, and it is marvelous. Matter of fact, I have a rye sour fermenting at this moment to make that bread.
David
Just to be certain, is a "rye sour" a rye-based starter? Or is it something (perhaps a levain) created from a starter?
On a related point, my starter is a 50/50 mix of AP and whole wheat that is fed on a 1:2:2 ratio. Could that be used for Hansjoakim's 70% rye bread? Or would I be better off creating a new starter that is rye-based?
A sourdough starter fed with rye flour is called a "rye sour." This is probably just a translation from the German term.
When a recipe calls for a rye starter, I suggest that is what you should use. It's easy enough to convert your AP/WW starter to a rye sour with two or even one feeding of 100% rye flour. That's what I usually do. You don't need to create a new rye sour from scratch!
David
Thanks for the clarifications. Now I just need to figure out when I can do this bake.
I'm thrilled that in this case, the rye sour looks like a familiar beast with standard operating procedure. However, I did stumble upon this awhile back (because when you talk rye, I listen), and was a bit daunted by the whole procedure.
And yet, both are called rye sour?
Just wanting to keep terminology straight in my head (now that it's dealt with starter/levain/chef/mother…)
Thanks alot,
Carole
Hi, Carole.
Sourdough starter terminology is a mess, for sure. "Rye sour" means nothing more than a sourdough starter fed with rye flour exclusively. Even if it is first inoculated with a non-rye starter.
I'm guessing as to the source of your confusion, but one difference with breads that are mostly rye flour-based compared to breads that have mostly wheat flour is that with rye breads, a much higher percentage of the flour is pre-fermented. In wheat based sourdoughs, most often around 20% of the flour is pre-fermented, i.e., in the starter. In many breads made with 40% rye, all of the rye flour is in the rye sour. I made a bread with 90% rye this afternoon. 41% of the rye and 37% of the total flour was pre-fermented, i.e., in the sour.
So, in the Jewish Sour Rye, I need 750 g of rye sour to make two loaves. That's a lot - probably around 8 or 10 cups! So I build up this volume via three feedings, most often.
Tomorrow, I am going to make a mostly wheat flour-based bread, but the leavening is totally via rye sour.
Lot's of breads with different characteristics, all good and all based on sound baking principles and science.
Hope this clarifies.
David
but I'm afraid that I have a further question: when Varda says to take 156g of 80% rye sour and to let it ripen until pungent, I would just take my rye starter and build it to 156g? Any ballpark timing for how long it takes to achieve pungency?
And while I'm pulling on your coattails, could you explain the baking technique in Varda's recipe? Load/steam for 1 minute, turn off the oven for 6 mins then bake at 430°F for 20 min. I'm not even sure I can re-light my gas oven after having preheated to 500 then turning it off for 6. What does this bring to the loaf?
Thanks again for your patience.
Carole
I hesitate to explain another baker's specification of procedures, but I assume Varda means 156g of 80% hydration rye sour. Unfortunately, your quotation does not specify the size of the inoculation, that is the rye sour that you are feeding. The size of the inoculation, how active it is, the hydration level and the ambient temperature will all influence the length of fermentation. And "pungent" is pretty imprecise. I am feeding a rye sour today which I will use tomorrow to make a pain au levain. This sour contains 11 g of active rye sour + 55 g water + 55 g whole rye flour. It was pungent, with the typical rye sour fruity aroma (I love), after 4 hours at 76ºF. But it was not ripe. The recipe I'm using says to ferment the sour for 12 hours at room temperature.
As for Varda's baking procedure, I have to wonder if she is using a home oven (gas or electric?) or a commercial steam injecting oven. I might advise you further, but I'm not sure what kind of rye bread this is for. It is very traditional with rye bread baking to use a "falling temperature" approach - starting out in a very hot oven and lowering the temperature, sometimes in several steps, as the bake continues. The initial high temperature maximizes oven spring. The lower temperature assures that the crust is not too dark and the crumb is fully baked.
David
I must've forgotten to include the link: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40280/jewish-corn-rye
You're right, though, I could probably ask her, it's just that one thing led to another in the course of this thread.
Thank you!
Carole
30% is a standard Jewish Deli Rye from NY city delis, but still on the light side for sure. 40% rye is Lucy's favorite for Tzitzel, a more substantial Jewish Deli Rye my wife grew up on in St Louis from Pratzels Bakery. Many European Medium Rye breads, say from Holland are 60% rye and many Russian rye, Borodinsky and Latvian rye reads are 80% as are many Westphalian Pumpernickel breads from Germany. Then there are the 100% rye breads or black rye from so many East and West european countries and the famous Westphalian rye from Germany that has no leaven at all and made every day in one bakery from 1537.
One of my personal favorite is Adris Westphalian rye at 63% Whole grain rye here
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/37266/lucy%E2%80%99s-take-adri%E2%80%99s-westphalian-rye
I always say that if you want more rye taste then use more rye. If you want a better tasting and looking rye then you can do all kinds of thongs from adding dried onion, using special bran rye levains , baked scalds, malts of all kinds etc. Rye breads are so fun to mess with when it comes to high percent rye formulas because many can just be mix, let sit a bit and dump into pan breads... easy as pie!
Your first loaf looks grand and it should make for fine smoked meat sandwiches. One of my favorite breads ever posted on TFL was by Zola Blue on of TFL's best ever bakers of all time- Pierre Nury's Rustic Light Rey here
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5500/pierre-nury%E2%80%99s-rustic-light-rye-leader
I tell people to read her blog from top to bottom just like Phil's (PiPs) , David Snyders and quite a few others actually. Pierre Nury has the strangest way to shape the dough right before it goes in the oven. You pick it up ny the ends, stretch it put 2" or so and just plop it down on the parchment sort of like a ciabatta.
Happy baking - you will love baking woih rye in all amounts and percents
Great comments, all. Thanks for the feedback.
It's a whole grain, organic rye from Anita's.
Yes I did a few folds during the first couple hours of bulk.
I'm going to bake another loaf today and keep playing with rye. Looking forward to trying a stiffer starter for the first time too. And my mill should arrive this week to feed it with the bags of rye and wheat berries I picked up from a local farmer.
Thanks.
Stanley Ginsberg is one of our own Fresh Loafers who has written a book called "The Rye Baker" and has a website of the same name. HERE is a link. Great website but the book is well worth the purchase price if you are at all interested in baking with rye. On his blog , he wrote an article on the different rye flours and grinds. LINK
A few years ago, he and Norm Berg (another Fresh Loafer who was a baker for many years) wrote a cultural, historical book called "Inside The Jewish Bakery" . Lots of historical,regional information and recipes. I cherish both books, esp. since both authors were so helpful to me and everyone else here on TFL. Norm has since passed away.
I believe if you buy any books through The Fresh Loaf website that our host Floyd (who provides this wonderful site without cost!!) will get a commission. Well deserved!
Have delicious fun!