The Fresh Loaf

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water or dough temperature?

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boxodough's picture
boxodough

water or dough temperature?

Hi all,


 


Newb here and I hope my questions not been covered before so here goes.  When I disolve my yeast recipes typically say 110-115f degrees but then after mixing (kitchen aide stand mixer) my dough temperature is very much warmer than what I understand it should be.  90 as opposed to 75ish?  So, what's more important here, my water temp to disolve yeast or dough temperature...or am I completely mixed up?  I'd really appreciate some help and clarification here!


 


Thanks,


Darryl

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Instant yeast, such as SAF, is added to the dry ingredients.  It needs no "proofing" in warm water.


With a dough temp of 90F, the dough is going to ferment pretty fast and really won't have much time to develop a good flavor.


Water temperature is important, but not for proofing yeast.  You need to calculate the temperature of the water to be added to the flour so you'll have control over the dough temperature. 


If you want a dough temperature of (i.e.) 78F and are not using any preferments, you multiply 78 x 3.  That equals 234.  You then subtract the temperature of the flour, the temperature of the room, and the friction factor for your KA mixer.   I think Dan DiMuzio noted it was around 20 - I use that number and it works pretty well.  You may have to experiment with your own mixer.


Example:


Desired dough temp:  234


Less flour temp:           76


Less rom temp:            78


Less friction factor:        20


Equals water temperature of 60F. 


KAF has a page which incorporates some of the information on the topic from Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread."  It can be found here.


If you're using active yeast, switch to instant.  Makes things much simpler.


Hope this helps.

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Hey Lindy, glad you suggested instant yeast and gave such a clear explanation on the importance of good dough temp and how to achieve same. Good resource, too, for further info.


I would just add that there's an easy way to calculate the friction factor of any machine. Next time making bread, take the dough temp at the start and end of your mix. The difference is your FF. My 4 1/2 quart Kitchen Aid stand mixer seems to be around 40 with the mixing times and breads I make most often.

boxodough's picture
boxodough

Thanks so much for the clarification Lindy...I'll try the instant yeast and drop my water temperature then.  My quest for the perfect loaf continues :).


 


Darryl

LindyD's picture
LindyD

You're most welcome, Darryl. 


I think you'll appreciate the simplicity of using instant yeast, and hope that the dough temp calculation info is helpful to you.


Keep on questing - that's what we're all doing here!  :-)

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I switched ages ago to instant for when I do use yeast. Is there any reason, other than preference, that you would want active yeast? Just curious.


Betty

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

As far as I can tell, there's at least two reasons why the active dry is still around:



  • Bakers -- including some pros -- just don't like change.  The extreme example of this is bakers who still use ONLY fresh, compressed yeast and swear it tastes better.  They go through enough yeast in their bakeries that spoilage isn't an issue.

  • Active dry yeast does have more glutathione than either fresh yeast or instant, since the glutathione seems to be associated with dead yeast cells, and active dry has more of those.  I'll leave the boring explanation of that for another time and a real scientist.  But glutathione works a bit like protease -- an enzyme -- to weaken or otherwise degrade gluten bonds.  That sounds bad -- and it can be when you retard shaped loaves -- but if you want to add extensibility to a too-strong baguette dough, or you want to make rolling out the croissant dough easier, using active dry yeast can help to create that extensibility.


I don't usually use active dry here at home.  As Lindy explained very well above, it isn't very convenient, and instant is just as long-lasting in shelf life.  But if I had any extensibility issues with a baguette dough that doesn't stretch, I'd certainly consider using it.


BTW, when you're using instant yeast, it's probably a good idea to toss the measured yeast in with the measured flour before adding any water.  If you find that you are using water less than maybe 60-65 degrees F, the direct contact between the cold water and the instant yeast could possibly cause a slowing of the rate of fermentation.


By swirling the yeast in with the flour ahead of time, the flour can act as a sort of insulator and the instant yeast are less likely to be negatively affected (my apologies to all real scientists for my Dick-and-Jane explanation).  The shock of the cold water doesn't seem to be an issue with fresh yeast, or with active dry yeast that has been bloomed first in warm water.  I have no idea why.


--Dan DiMuzio

Rosalie's picture
Rosalie

In July of 2002 (seven years ago - I wrote the date on the package), I bought a 2-pound package of active dry yeast.  This stuff lasts forever in the freezer.  I'm not throwing it out.


When I bake bread, I start it one day and then stick it in the refrigerator overnight or longer.  I figure the yeast gets plenty of time to soak that way, so I just throw it in with the flour as if it were instant.


The other day, I made a dough for pita of 75% whole wheat and 25% rye.  I used about half the yeast that the recipe called for, and the recipe was designed for 75% ap and 25% ww.  After kneading, I put the dough in the refrigerator.  The next morning that dough was trying to bust its way out of the container.


I don't have any problem with active yeast.


Rosalie

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Gee, Betty, maybe there could be pastry recipes that call for active yeast?  I've no idea because while I like pastry, I don't bake it (because I like it so much!).


I personally see no reason to use active instead of instant....but I also see no reason to use instant when you can use your own levain.  :-)

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Agreed, Lindy! re pastry and levain. After having made breads with my own levain, making a yeasted loaf was like using a cake mix! It was weird..


Betty

proth5's picture
proth5

gets no respect.  But we baked with it for years.  It is still the most commonly available yeast for many people.


It does not need to be "proofed" but it does need to be dissolved (Or so goes the current line. In the '70's we baked with Fleischman's Active Dry Yeast using the "Rapidmix" method that just put the yeast in the flour without dissolving it, so I don't know what changed, but I digress.) .  However, if you dissolve it in a mere 2 oz of water (at the higher temperature) you can still adjust the rest of your water to the correct temperature.


Yes, instant is preferable, but if it is not available good old Active Dry can be used effectively in this way.


Hope this helps.


 

boxodough's picture
boxodough

Thanks for that reply proth5.  Nice to know since I have a huge jar of it from a bigbox store, it would be a shame for it to go to waste.

apprentice's picture
apprentice

is that it was a different yeast product and not simply a new method introduced by Fleischmann's to be used with their Active Dry product. RapidMix was developed as a more finely granulated yeast than Active Dry, and sold separately to people who wished to incorporate it directly into the flour without the intermediate need to dissolve. In short, it was a step on the path to producing instant yeast which itself is now evolving into different forms, each more appropriate to various purposes.


The fact is that all varieties of yeast have their uses and they deserve not only our respect but awe. To each, his own.

proth5's picture
proth5

was a mixing method.  You may be thinking of RapidRise - which is indeed a whole different yeast.  No, RapidMix is just a technique that we used - a long, long time ago.


I do see a reference to "Rapid Mix" (two words) yeast out on the web, but the RapidMix (one word) method was promoted by the Fleishmann's Yeast Company (Who also promoted "Cool Rise" - which now in these fancier times we call "retarded fermentation") and used good ol' active dry.  I have the very old cookbooks to prove it. 


Hope this helps.

apprentice's picture
apprentice

and the old white-haired, but hip baker who goes along with them. Like you, I have the books from Fleischmann's that tout the new "cool rise" method, etc. But I stand corrected. I must have been thinking of rapid rise, aka quick rise, later bread machine yeast and later still, instant.


I stayed away from yeast recipes and methods that went for quick results, so I can't comment on the Rapid Mix method. Guess I always felt that good things are worth waiting for. But I'm a convert now to instant yeast, interestingly enough as a result of being taught by another old baker. My chief instructor in a professional baking program. He ran a bakery for over 30 years, seeing all the permutations since the development of active dry in WW II. In his opinion, the latter is a waste of the baker's time for no good purpose -- other than to use up stock if you have it on hand.


But my point was not to diss active dry or any other form of yeast. Different products suit different people's and companies' needs. As I said, to each his own.