The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Getting there but not quite - need help!!

CDixon's picture
CDixon

Getting there but not quite - need help!!

Hi, I am getting there...I think but I am ending up with gummy loaves...or at least I think they are gummy....additional baking doesn't really help so I am after some advice. I have posted some photos below. The loaves have risen but not as much as I had hoped for. This is the recipe:

700g Water at 80F plus 50 grams

200g Leaven

White flour 900g

Wholewheat Flour 100g

Salt 20g

Leaven added to water, then added the flour, then a 40 min rest. After that the salt and the 50g of additional water: Bulk fermentation at 27C (in a Brod & Taylor proofing box) with 6 turns (every half hour/45mins). Total time 4 hours fermenting. Shaped and put into bannetons and then into the fridge in a plastic bag for 17 hours. Baked at 230c in a lodge dutch oven for 20 mins, then a further 20 mins with the cover off. I baked the batard for a further 5 mins as I thought it underdone.

So my thoughts are this: I think it is under proofed. I did get the billowy texture to the dough after 3 hours of bulk fermentation but not as much as I thought...perhaps I should have gone longer?? My starter and leaven seemed ok - certainly the starter was very vigorous but this is made with 50% rye and 50% whole wheat (ie no white flour in the starter but the predominance of flour in the dough was white...would this affect things?)

After it was baked, the taste was amazing but a little heavy and you could not eat a whole load of it....which is what I wanted to do!!

I would really appreciate some pointers in the right direction as I really want to master this and it is driving me crazy!!

Many thanks.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

that is 85% hydration. I find I have much better luck with a lower hydration such as 74 to 78%. Try cutting back on the water and see what happens. 

The rest of your procedure sounds fine except for the really long retarding. I don’t have any luck if I go past 9-10 hours in the fridge. That seems to be the sweet point for me. 

ETA: Okay, I used a calculator instead of my head and I didn’t do my math right. Too early in the morning for me. ? It really is 77% hydration which should be fine. Try baking earlier and see if you can get improvement. 

CDixon's picture
CDixon

Thanks very much for the response. I will try that next time. My schedule yesterday determined the bulk fermentation finishing at 4pm, after shaping I thought i would leave it until the morning to bake. I will alter the schedule and do it all again!! Should i be expecting a spongy fluffy interior or something a little more dense and moist??

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

are two things I expect out of my breads. And a slice will stick to you ribs! They are certainly not like the commercial white bread one can buy. The crumb also springs back when compressed.

Be sure not to cut into the load too early because it needs time to redistribute the moisture throughout the loaf. If you cut into it too early, the loaf will be gummy. 

hreik's picture
hreik

But I also agree with you that it looks under-fermented.  However, it's possible the final fermentation was too long and it overproofed and collapsed.... I dunno.   Next time your schedule limits your options, perhaps just leave the bulk fermentation to go at room temperature and let it go long and slow.  And shorten the final rise in the fridge.

Quick question: what did you bake your loaves in?  like a cloche? Dutch oven?  did you have steam? 

How's your scoring?  It's taken me 4 years to get the scoring right.  Sometimes if I don't score properly, the loaves don't get enough oven spring and are denser than I want.  (I'm thinking aloud here).

hester

CDixon's picture
CDixon

So I baked both loaves in a Lodge Dutch Oven. This is a method I have taken to because most of the recipes call for that method.

I think it was under fermented by maybe an hour or two. The dough after the bulk ferment looked a little bubbly at the edges and because it was in a glass bowl i could see some small bubbles through the glass. It did not look like the billowy airy dough that you see on youtube although it was on its way...i am kicking myself now thinking that i should have left it longer.

Next time, I will drop the hydration a little, bulk ferment until i am happy, bench rest, shape and proof in the fridge for no more than 10 hours...after that I will pray!!

hreik's picture
hreik

Was timing the reason you did the bulk fermentation in the Brod and Taylor proofing box?  Why not just leave it out at RT? 

hester

CDixon's picture
CDixon

The proofing box is just a new toy and I am hoping by using it it may give me consistent results.

davidg618's picture
davidg618

High C,

Sorry, I can't resist playing with words.

I see progress, good progress. That said, I have some comments. 

My math, assuming your sourdough leaven is 100% hydrated is:

Total flour = 900g white flour + 100g whole wheat flour + 100g leaven flour = 1100g total flour 

Total water = 700g water + 50g saltwater + 100g leaven water = 850g total water

yielding 850/1100 times 100 = 77.2 (rounding to the nearest integer) = 77% Final dough Hydration

That's a very wet dough. It appears from your photographs you handled it quite well. I bake similar dry ingredients at 67% to 70% hydration; my go-to sourdough is 90% White flours and 10% course rye meal.  I'm not criticizing, merely curious: What do you hope to gain using that high a level of hydration? Well developed doughs of similar ingredients at 77% hydration produce loaves with large holes--much like the ones in your cut loaf, but more of them: open crumb loaves suited to soaking up soups and sauces. My go-to faccocia is all-white flour at 72% hydration. I've planned to bake a ciabatta today: all white flour, 75% hydration.

Fermentation begins the moment you mix your leaven with water and flour. it ends when the internal temperature reaches 140°F (60°C) when the yeast cells die. All the time between mixing and baking fermentation is ongoing. Ambient and internal dough temperature speeds it up, or slows it down, fats and sugars influence the yeast's metabolic efficiency, but as long as the water present isn't frozen or otherwise bond fermentation goes on. 84.2°F (28°C) is the sweet-spot for both commercial and natural yeast as far as I've been able to research. You may have done yourself a disservice fermenting the dough at the elevated temperature while you manipulated the dough. Common practice is to manipulate dough at room temperature or cooler between manipulations. Furthermore, plunging the shaped loaves into the refrigerator would have reduced the yeast's activity quite slowly. 

On the other hand, normally your  chilling the dough for 17 hours in the refrigerator would have a positive effect on the doughs gluten web, and developed flavors. I chill all my lean doughs, excepting rye doughs, in the refrigerator during the usual time spent manipulating the dough, and then leave it overnight in a wine cooler at 54°F in bulk form. In the early morning I turn up my home-made proof box to the sweet-spot temperature, and warm the dough for an hour before degassing--vigorously--dividing and shaping loaves. Subsequently, the loaves take 2 to 2-1/4 hours to proof, this hasn't change since I created my long-followed process.

Helpful tools: If you know about these two tools already, consider this a testimony that the are indeed helpful. I've scanned other comments and haven't seen them mentioned, but I didn't read them all thoroughly.

The good news is you don't have to buy anything, you have the tools for both already: your fingers.

Window Pane test: Before doing S&F # X take a small piece of S&F # X-1 flatten it and gently stretch it out using both hands. Do this in front of a window in daylight or a lamp. One of two things will happen. 1: the dough will rip, the light source will be clearly recognized. 2: As you continue to stretch it out the dough will continue to stretch and the light source will begin to show through the thinned dough. Continue to stretch it carefully until you estimate you could read at least the headlines of a newspaper through the thinned area. If result #1 happens S&F #X is necessary, the dough isn't ready. If result #2 happens S&F #X ain't needed--go directly to bulk fermentation.

Poke test: this ultra-scientific test helps you judge the progress of proofing the shaped loaves. Choose a finger--anyone will do, but thumbs are clumsy. Partially uncover a convenient part of a loaf's surface. Using the selected finger, with high confidence, and a gentle touch poke the loaf and remove your finger. Make a worthy poke, don't be timid. (a half-inch deep poke is probably good) One of three things will happen. 1: The loaf's surface will spring back and the poke hole will be barely noticeable, or not at all, in a few seconds. 2: The poke hole will attempt to spring back but long before the surface is once again pokiness the spring will quit. More the half of the poke hole's depth will remain. 3: The poke hole will silently stare back at you no attempt to spring back will be seen, but it might seem to appear guilty.

If result #1 happens continue to proof the loaf, it ain't ready. If result 2 happens the loaf is ready proceed to score and bake. If number 3. happens bake score and bake the loaf, but don't have high-high expectations.

Don't worry about the remaining poke hole(s); it/they will disappear in the baking,

Some recommendations:

Unless you have a good reason to continue with with 77% hydration I recommend trying the same ingredients with 67%. Don't exceed 70% until you've built-up your confidence, then try a soup soaking foccocia or ciabatta.

Use a probe thermometer to check the loaves done-ness. For lean doughs 96°C to 100°C at the center of the loaf is good. Note: internal temperature will not exceed 100°C until all the internal water vapor is gone, but you can burn the crust: don't push it.

I also second the the comment one of our other fellow TFLers offered. Chose a recipe and stick to it until you've learned all there is to learn. If you must fiddle, fiddle only with one thing at a time. (This was the hardest discipline for me to stick to.)

If you haven't been using the two tests, give them a try. they'll do no harm and will likely help.

A guess. I think the photographed loaves in your post are slightly over-proofed for the reasons stated above. I also think the temperature swings and over-proofing weakened the gluten network. I suggest had the gluten net been only a bit weaker it would have broken resulting in a line of gluten stalactites in the middle of the loaf much like the loaf in your first post.

I recommend mixing at room temperature, manipulating at room temperature or chilling the dough mass between manipulations. Furthermore, bulk ferment at room temperature or chilling temperature if you are going to ferment overnight .Shape after completing bulk fermentation especially if you are chilling overnight. I do not recommend chilling shaped loaves. Final Proof at the sweet spot. Bake lean doughs to  96°C or higher.

Lastly, here's a link 

A compilation of lessons learned: starter maintenance, and manipulation. 

You'll have to use the Search function on TFL home page to access it. I've forgotten how to post active links herein.

I wrote this shortly before I quit frequently  visiting and posting on The FreshLoaf, in part, as a thank-you to the many men and women that helped me learn to bake "better" breads. There is always a host of knowledgeable bakers active on this site. There is also an ultra-large collection of facts, opinions and even fictions in its archives. I highly recommend using the search function when you are looking for almost anything baking related. For example try searching for Window Pane Tests; I bet you can find photographs of what I tried to explain only with words.

Again, I see good progress.

Happy baking,

David G

 

 

 

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Later today I got curious about what I'd predicted re find window pane test photos.

Did even better than that. Here's a link to a video.

http://how2heroes.com/videos/techniques/bakers-tip-pulling-a-window-pane

David G