2nd Rise Producing Flat Results
I'm pretty new on the road of "understanding and baking good sourdough".
My issue is that for the 2nd rise my loaves are not rising very much at all. (And, in fact, they spread out / flatten out. So at shaping I'll make a nice almost-sphere and during the "rise" they spread out and get shorter.)
I think I've got a good starter built up. (I created it myself. When I feed it it responds well.) And for bulk fermentation I get a doubling of the dough in probably 9-11 hours.
I've seen lots of questions on how long bulk fermentation should go. But my question is "Can bulk fermentation go too long?"
I'm wondering if I'm letting bulk go too long and there is nothing left (food) for the yeasts when it's time for the 2nd rise. I will say after bulk the dough is VERY sticky and quite airy/fluffy. Like I said - I wonder if there is no food left. I'm also wondering if the dough might be too wet (given the sticky consistency).
Any suggestions?
Thanks very much.
Jim
Accurate answer: it depends.
As you are learning, naturally leavened doughs do become slack and sticky as they ferment. You can prevent some of that by working with a young levain; i.e, a levain that has been recently fed and has not yet reached its full expansion. This favors yeast growth over bacterial growth, reducing acid production.
You can also work around it by supporting the shaped loaves during their final fermentation, either in a basket/banneton/brotform or in a fabric couche. These provide lateral support during fermentation and limit the spread of the dough. The loaves will spread as soon as they are removed from their supports for slashing and placement in the oven, but not greatly. The baker then relies on oven spring to expand the loaves before the crust sets and limits growth.
The amount of spread is not something one would typically associate with the yeast exhausting their food supply . Instead, it has more to do with how the loaf is shaped, which it sounds as though you are doing well, and then the amount of support during final fermentation.
To help with gauging the "right" amount of fermentation, do the bulk fermentation in a container that has straight sides so that you can see when the dough has reached twice its original height. You may be surprised to find that you have been letting it grow much larger than you think. You can pinch off a small amount of the dough before shaping and place it in a small container with straight sides, too, so that it ferments alongside the shaped loaves. Try to get the loaves in the oven when the dough in the small container (shot glass, mayber?) is about 1.75 its original volume, rather than a full doubling.
Paul
Great ideas. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give 'em a whirl.
Jim
It does sound "over proofed." I believe there is a spectrum of proofing where on the front end it is just proofed enough (very dense, but not gummy) and on the back end it is very billowy and sticky (very soft, pillowy crumb). I wouldn't say anywhere on the spectrum is faulty; it depends on what you are looking for and what your ideal loaf is. On the back end of the spectrum, the outside of the loaves won't look pretty in the traditional sense. It sounds to me like you are pushing the envelope and have a very well proofed dough.
More food for thought: I use a wet dough (80% hydration plus starter, minimal whole grains), and if I let my dough rise anywhere close to double, it would be way past done. I think I get about 20-30% rise ideally. Any more than that and it's too well proofed for what I'm aiming for.
Thanks folks! I made a couple of changes with what appears to be much better results.
1. I bulk fermented for about 3 hours (whereas previously I let this step go for 9-12 hours)
2. I did 2nd rising in mixing bowls. The loaf on the right (small mixing bowl - 1/3 of the batch of dough or so) rose for 3 hours. The loaf on the left was in a bigger bowl (more dough too) and I let it go for 4 hours.
The one on the right was cooked on a pizza stone. The loaf on the left was cooked in a dutch oven with the lid on for the first 20 min. The last 40 min were cooked with the lid off.
Thanks again! This is heading the direction I was hoping it would.
Jim
9 to 11 hours would be too long at normal room temperature, I'd think. For my standard recipe, I would stop at 6.5 hours at around 70F.
But also, I don't look for much rise on the "second rise". Essentially after ferment, I shape the dough, proof it for ~90 minutes, then bake it. It will flatten out during the proofing if allowed to. It will rise a bit, but what I watch for more is signs of collapse telling me I've let it go on for too long. 90 minutes is safe.
Just to give another view, my sourdoughs are fermented at room temperature for 9-10 hours. Currently the thermomenter overnight is about 20°C which is starting to get a little warm, so I'll be moving them to a slightly cooler place soon.
I make sourdoughs 5 days a week and this works for me. Just put the first batch into an oven this morning.
However it's easy to let 9-10 hours last longer if not careful. I start mixing round about 7-8pm, done and washed up by 9:30, then up at 5:30 to start the scale/shape/prove step. I try to mix the doughs in the order I'll be scaling then and again to put into the ovens but sometimes that's not as practical as it might be, however if you're only doing a couple of loaves then you should be able to work it just fine./
How much levian/starter are you putting in the final mix?
-Gordon