Another post about bad Tartine loaves
I CANNOT get a Tartine style loaf to spring in my Dutch oven anything close to the real deal. I've been working on this for years with unsatisfactory results.
To answer some common questions: I use King Arthur flours and filtered water. Yes, I've followed the directions and hydration exactly (and experimented with both). Always the same results; Yes, I've tried overnight cold proofing. Same results; Yes, I've tried both parchment paper and no-parchment-paper bakes. Same results; I have proofed the final loaves for ranges between 30m and 180m; similarly flat; Yes, I know what gluten development looks like; And I've even tried just about every recipe in "Tartine 3" with added grains and such, with the same results.
Additional info: I bought a loaf at the Tartine Bakery in SF, and the flavor was almost exactly what I get. But the crumb was very open and not like mine. I have attempted at least 30 loaves in this style, I'd say.
So, what is it? Do I just have a dud of a starter? Is this simply impossible without a commercial oven? Has anyone cracked this code?
That’s the only way I got the Tartine recipes to work for me. Oh and I skip the extra wheat germ in the recipes.
Every video of Chad Robertson shaping dough seemed like the dough was much dryer/firmer than mine ended up. Perhaps Tartine's bespoke flour absorbs much more water than commercial options can.
No, you don't need a commercial oven. One of these combo cookers can get you results every bit as good as one of these or even one of these massive beasts. Speaking from personal experience.
Easy way to determine if you have a "dud of a starter": spike your recipe w/ 2g yeast/kg flour or thereabouts and note the differences in results.
The pale crust, low profile, gummy crumb and horizantal shear of the alveoli in the loaf you posted suggest at least that 1.) This loaf was extensively fermented in the bulk stage, perhaps even overfermented (2.) You could be using a mature or even overripe starter (3.) This loaf was definitely overproofed.
Hard to tell what could be going wrong with your process in general without hearing all the specifics--number of folds, dough & fermentation temperatures, starter innoculation rate, etc. etc. etc.
Commercial yeast would probably be notable, but this loaf doubled in size easily within 90 minutes on natural starter alone. Otherwise, all times were precisely from the Tartine formula: 30 min autolyse, 180 min bulk at 78F with 6 folds, 20 min bench rest.
There are a lot of variables to take into consideration.
But it is not impossible.
Tartine style @ 83% hydration. 3 hour autolysis then brief hand kneeding to combine salt and starter ( 2 and 15 percent in this case) Approx 6 hour bulk fermentation @ 75 degrees to reach 30 percent rise with periodic gentle stretch and folds. Preshape and rested for 30 minutes before final shaping then 16 hours in the fridge. Baked in a dutch oven preheated at
What is your feeding schedule for your starter? Is it well behaved and predictable? That's usually a good starting point.
That is gorgeous. Your 25-hour schedule is a bit of a departure from the Tartine book, but the results are clearly great. My starter will reliably triple in volume in about 8 hours.
Obviously it is something on your end. I'm relatively new at this but have never had a loaf from Tartine 1 or 3 not turn out well. There are many variables, starter, flour, water, shaping. Maybe build a new starter?
As a last resort, I will. This starter has been leavening doughs consistently for about 7 years now. It just falls short in this one endeavor.
In particular, how much have you worked with high-hydration doughs? When or even before you get to 80% and above, things like gluten formation and shaping become considerably more important than they are when you're making say 70 to 75% loaves. This is my usual range, and when I bump that to a higher level, I need to pay much closer attention to those things because I don't have enough experience with 80% and more doughs for this additional focus and care to happen naturally.
I work with slack, commercial-yeast dough regularly and with pretty consistent success. It is my suspicion that the slavish adherence to bakers' formula for hydration may be a mistake because of grains' highly variable biology.
If you attempted this bread 30 times, you are a persistent one. I think nothing makes a great baker more than persistence. We’ve got to help you figure this one out!
Could you put up a photo of the formula? I want to make sure we are on the same page.
Myself and 2 others have been baking the Tartine (85% hydration). I think we’ve finally come to our senses. Unless you are a master baker, doughs that wet are not the best loaf to learn on. It’s just too wet. Ciabatta being an exception because it is not a formed bread. In my opinion.
Dan
I have attempted something in the Tartine style at least that many times. Here is the oat porridge bread in recipe form: https://food52.com/recipes/25384-oat-porridge-bread. In my case, I adjusted everything at 80% because of a full kg of flour is too much loaf for me.
Two weeks later. I wanted to take all of this advice (thank you!) on the whole into another bake before replying. And, well, closer, but no cigar. Nonetheless, what a wonderful place the Fresh Loaf is, and what wonderful, generous bakers you all are! The quest continues.
Abba, I have an idea that might help. We have a post inviting others to bake Trevor Wilson’s Champlain Sourdough bread. We are using the bread as a loaf for learning. Our main goal is to create a very open and holey crumb. The original hydration is 70% but a lot of us are changing that to 75%.
Here is the link. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55230/anyone-interested-champlain-sd-bake
If you like the idea, bake a loaf following Trevor’s instructions, then post your experience and document with pictures. Some of the bakers are getting really adept at open crumb. Our thinking is, that baking the same loaf in unison is a great way to learn from each other. A “community bake”...
Dan
Just read this thread. You know Trevor warns everyone NOT to try his Tartine Country bread if you are not adept at handling a high hydration dough and I can see why - his Champlain SD is a great place to practice. I inadvertently made a high hydration dough and wanted to cry actually - really really tough. And I am not a slap and fold person nor can I manage the Rubaud method for any length of time.
Abba, join the other thread and try that recipe. You’ll find the recipe from Lechem (Abe) with the adaptation that Trevor gave me for increasing the levain to 100g.
Come on over!
Sharon