Levain Build Questions
These are all very fundamental questions but I want to be sure of a sound foundation and I would appreciate any comments. My starter is 100% hydration AP flour, about 6 months old and behaving well. Room temp would be roughly 65-70F.
Starter = Mother? I think that's obvious, but I've never asked the question. The terms are apparently used interchangeably and not necessarily together. I just wanna make sure.
When I feed my starter/mother, (1:1:1 starter, flour, water) then that is my first build? I let it rise to about 150% and then I can pour off, reserve and refrigirate my 'fed' starter. The remainder is my first build levain?
Repeat the same for the second and third builds?
If I were to feed it 1: 0.5: 0.5 (trying to control volume but maintaining 100% hydration) other than a quicker rise time (I'm assuming), are there any other considerations flavor or behavior-wise?
If I were adding my sifted bran (home-milled) to the levain, when would I do that? For how long? Should that be a seperate levain or is it just in the mix, so to speak?
Should I be rising my levain to 150% or 300% or somewhere else?
How do these dynamics affect creating a more or a less sour dough?
Thanks in advance, very much.
dobie
Dobie, I am just getting my feet wet with starters, so this may be the blind leading the blind. I think Reinhart refers to the mother as the main batch from which you build the starter that you will use to make your loaves, though I think others use the terms interchangeably.
The only help I can give you on flavor is that the greater the amount of starter in your loaf, the less sour it will be. So if you used 30% starter, it would double in volume fairly quickly. If you used 15% starter, it would take much longer, and as a result, would have more of a sour tang.
Thank you barryvabeach
Last things first. Yes, I have heard from several people recently that the greater the percentage of starter to a dough, the less sour the result and vice-versa. Not what I expected to happen and tho I haven't yet proven it to myself, I believe it will be true. I like being able to make a more or a less sour sourdough bread, as the situation calls for.
Back to the first part,. Yes, I seem to remember reading Reinhart (and others) saying that the mother builds the starter, so then I ask, what is the levain? It's all so confusing.
I also have problems understanding the pre-ferment vrs autolyse when the autolyse has yeast (from whatever source) in it. I don't think everyone is on the same page regarding terminology. Or, maybe it's just me. That's why I ask.
I think (for the most part) I understand the concepts, just not the terminology.
Thanks again,
dobie
Dobie, yes, the language is not always as clear as I would like. In general, autolyse is a method to develop the gluten of a dough - and serves a purpose similar in some ways to kneading. Classically, it is just flour and water, no starter or yeast. Often it is done for 1/2 hour to 1 hour, though others suggest longer. It is not done to improve flavor. Some add the yeast. Salt is never added since that retards gluten development.
Preferment usually is done to improve flavor. Normally it includes a small amount of yeast, and normally it is done over longer times, such as overnight. A typical recipe would call for a small percentage of the flour water and yeast - 20 to 30 % of the overall dough amount, mixed for a minute or so, and left out overnight as a preferment.
I suggest you buy the book Bread by Hamelman. http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Bakers-Book-Techniques-Recipes/dp/1118132718 It is fairly expensive, but he earned his money by writing a fairly thorough book on techniques, and has some very good recipes.
barryvabeach
If I understand you correctly, the preferment is only a small (20-30%) portion of the final dough. Yeast yes, salt no. I get that.
Do you know what hydration that would be at? The same as the final dough or perhaps 100% or otherwise? And if you had a choice, would you preferment (or autolyse, for that matter) the more whole grain of your recipe or the more refined?
And so autolyse is no salt, no yeast, but otherwise all the flour and liquid of the dough? I understand both autolyse and preferment will develop gluten (correct?) but I also thought I understood that the longer the flour was in contact with liquid (within reason) the greater the flavor developed. So autolyse would, to some degree, develop flavor?
Sorry if I'm being troublesome, I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to get clear on these concepts.
And yes, my public library has Hamelman's 'Bread' and I (supposedly) have read it, but that was a while ago and not under these current circumstances. Perhaps I should take it out again.
Of course, that's part of the problem. You read Hamelman and Reinhart and Forkish and all the rest, and there is just a lot of descrepancy in terminology I think. Either that, or it's me (which is entirely possible).
Thank you
dobie
What I'm saying is not necessary aligned with anybody/everybody else, but I'll take a shot at it too - what the heck...
starter - the basic foundational goop, be it low or high hydration, for making an eventual sourdough bread.
refresh - the action of feeding a starter to provide it with new food, regardless of how frequent one does this. A refresh typically has one discarding a portion of the existing starter and performing the refresh to the remaining portion, sometimes quite a small amount, perhaps no more than a few grams of starter. My 60% hydration starter hasn't been refreshed in maybe 4 months now, my 75% hydration starter, which is the one I mostly use is refreshed when I feel like it, usually around the time I've done a few bakes. They both live in the deep dark recesses of my refrigerator, along with my 100% hydration rye starter, also not refreshed in the past 6-8 weeks. The refresh can also be done in builds. My 60% starter is done in 3 builds.
build - the first step to creating the levain for the eventual sourdough bread (or refresh). Builds are frequently done in 1,2 or 3 separate steps, building on the output from the prior build step.
levain - the final output from the builds performed to the starter, regardless of how you arrived there. This is what will be added to the remainder of the final mix ingredients to create the dough. In my personal nomenclature this differs from a levain or sourdough bread, which is bread made with levain.
preferment - the creating of a flour/water mixture with some addition of yeast, be it natural (levain itself is a preferment) or commercial yeast, such as Instant Dried Yeast. If one adds no yeast to a "preferment" then it isn't one, it is an autolyse.
autolyse - is a way to begin the hydration process of the flour and to start breaking down the starches in the flour so that the eventual addition of yeast can have some immediate food to feast on. The autolyse, as described by Msr. Calvel many decades ago consists of nothing more than water and flour. To adhere to his definition means adherence to nothing more than those two ingredients. However, there are a lot of formulae that call for the yeast or occasional other additives to be "autolysed" at that initial stage. Regardless of how you - dobie - define autolyse, the singular ingredient that is "never" added at this stage is salt.
The hydration level of the preferment varies as does the %age of yeast added to it, as does the fermentation time to get to an eventual mature preferment and its readiness to be added to the final mixture. Some familiar preferments are poolish and biga, each with its own relatively standard hydration level.
The %age of preferment to be added to the final mixture can vary as there is no standard. It is up to the creator of a recipe (or formula) to determine through learned experience, what an appropriate %age of preferment should be. Just as the same is true for what hydration and %age of levain should be added.
Preferments do not have to be used. Another in the myriad methods of creating a final product. When they are not used the general term is straight dough or direct dough.
Autolyse is typically timed out at between ~20 minutes to 1 hour, with a school of thought that any greater than 1 hour has negligible returns.
So - in summary, am I right? Some will agree with much of what I state some will disagree with much of what I state, and I am certainly not one to school Mr. Hamelman nor Mr. Reinhart on terminology. But these definitions are what I hold as my standards - for me. For you? What works for you will eventually become your standard. But once you get there, try not to vary it too much or you'll be all over the board trying to keep it straight for yourself or when defining it to others. Get one story and stick with it.
As for me and creating formulae? I'm a copycat. I find something that seems interesting to me, try to reproduce it and then change a thing or three around.
alan
alfonso (alan)
I just want to give a quick thank you for a very informative, well reasoned and well written response.
I haven't yet read dabrownman's response but when I do (shortly) I will try to synopsis what I have learned from you, DA, MO and barryvabeach. I do believe, that as you say, I will come up with a clear (to me) nomenclature for the process and as you suggest, I will get one story and stick with it.
I feel a lot less lost and hopeless now. Thank you, all.
dobie
I keep looking for someone that can give me a page and quote from Calvels book on autolyse. Do you have it?
According to the "all seeing and all knowing" Wikipedia, the entry on Autolisis has a reference to the page where Calvel states this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolysis_(biology)
From Wikipedia: "In bread baking, the term (or, more commonly, its French cognate autolyse) is described as the hydration rest following initial mixing of flour and water, before other ingredients (such as salt and yeast) are added to the dough. [2] The term was coined by French baking professor Raymond Calvel, who recommended the procedure as a means of reducing kneading time, thereby improving the flavor and color of bread."...
Thanks - I know there are plenty of interpretations of what he said - I have to yet to see his own words. Appreciate the response though.
Dough Autolysis: A Calvel Discovery
Autolysis is the slow-speed premixing of the flour and water in a recipe (excluding all the other ingredients), followed by a rest period. The other ingredients are added when mixing is recommenced. Premixing and autolysis times appear in the recipes in other chapters.
During experiments in 1974, Professor Calvel discovered that the rest period improves the links between starch, gluten, and water, and notably improves the extensibility of the dough. As a result, when mixing is restarted, the dough forms a mass and reaches a smooth state more quickly. Autolysis reduces the total
mixing time (and therefore the dough's oxidation) by approximately 15%, facilitates the molding of unbaked loaves, and produces bread with more volume, better cell structure, and a more supple crumb, Although the use of autolysis is advantageous in the production of most types of bread, including regular French bread, white pan sandwich bread and sweet yeast doughs, it is especially valuable in the production of natural levain leavened breads.
Wild-Yeast
P.S. I need an address to send the bill for the transcription charges...,
Curious did this come from the book on your shelf? I have seen this before but am not convinced again that it is Calvel's writing. Other parts of the book I have seen he doesn't describe himself in the 3rd person.
Raymond Calvel speaks French. The book is a translation by Ronald L. Wirtz, PhD, Evans, Georgia. He holds Monsieur Calvel and his book in high regard (as do I).
And yes, the book sits on my shelf. As to believing it to be Calvel's writing - it is not. it is a translation as previously mentioned. It's something you'll just have to get used to - it is my experience that what it states is correct no matter the "person" of the transliteration.
Wild-Yeast
Part of it is a direct translation of the French:
I understand it is a translation. Again, what I haven't understood is why other parts of the translation I have seen are in first person. Which is what I would expect from a translation.
It does not seem normal if someone writes "j'ai trouvé" - "I found" to translate that to "Raymond Calvel found"
Maybe that is how it was done, I have just never seen a translation like that before. And I have had my hands on the book and don't remember seeing that. The few pieces I can find online are more in line with a translation "To meet these basic criteria, it must not have been exposed to excessive humidity" not something like "Professer Calvel found to meet these basic criteria..."
I don't make any comment about if it is "correct" - I am just curious what he actually said on the subject because it seems to vary depending on the telling. And it is just a matter of curiosity for me. It won't change how I make my bread or who is willing to buy it. Just interesting. If the "translator is adding his own narrative, I don't think that can really be considered a true translation - even if the facts are correct.
Thanks for the direct French Maverick.
The book is still available on Amazon but at a collector price level.
If you've ever authored a book you'll realize that a "good reader" is invaluable to the process. The human mind has lots of ways in which it remembers things (some better than others) the same goes for editors and readers - some things inevitably pass "invisibly" through their purview....,
Wild-Yeast
Different languages have different words for the same thing so that can lead to more confusion when an author uses them. Levain is a French word, I don't know the word for "builds" in French. (Reinhart misused the word "barm" early in his writing and has since corrected that but the early printings didn't correct themselves and confusion remains with that word.)
I mix up words and languages myself and try hard not to but when I grasped that there are basically three ways to making sourdough bread, sourdough cultures got easier to understand.
Three basic ways of making sourdough dough:
All the different names you run into are basically steps and parts of these three basic ways to use sourdough culture in bread. The last is most often discussed as it has the most confusion involved, both in maintenance of the culture and how part of the culture is manipulated for use. Two very similar yet different concepts.
Hmmm,
Thank you MO.
I will now sleep, perchance to dream..., (I'll be back in my morning).
dobie
you can feed a sourdough culture bran anytime but it might be a good idea not to feed the culture only bran, Mix in some carbohydrates as well.
First, thank you for the very clear understanding of the basic ways to sourdough. I get it.
Other than reserving none or reserving a bit of the dough; that's what I do as a weekly, not daily baker.
So, I will feed my bran into the building levain that will leaven this particular dough and not my starter (mother) that I keep in reserve.
Thanks again
dobie
the difference would be that the culture will eat thru the sifted out bran faster than whole flour so fermenting times may be shorter. Something to watch out for....
Dobie, I agree with the Mini Oven and Alfanso, but to answer your specific question, I have not read that Autolyse directly improves flavor, preferments on the other hand are designed for flavor improvement. I suggest a trip to the library for the Hamelman book, he has a number of recipes with preferments, and some without, IIRC his position is that the preferment adds to flavor through the interaction of the yeast and the long time. You could use both Autolyse and preferment in the same recipe. Nearly everything I bake is 100% home ground whole wheat, and I commonly use preferments, and sometime autolyse. If you are using red spring, I would think you have enough flavor that a preferment is not essential, but I still do it pretty often, and nearly alway use a preferment for white whole wheat.
I think i can agree with just about everything posted and can even add a bit more. Levain is the French word for Sourdough. Pain Au Levain is sourdough bread. So a mother, starter, levain build or levain (the builds made for a preferment for a bread) are all technically levain of one kind or another - they are all kinds of sourdough. but I like Alan's definitions because it allows us to talk to one another without confusion.
Bread making is relative like most things. The rules are general in bature and for a reason - they are meant to be bent and even broken sometimes. This straying from the rules is what can lead to a new kind of bread Some examples are obvious like hydration for the total; dough - it could be 50% or 100%. one,makes a bagel and one,makes ciabatta but with whole grain flour the ciabatta becomes whole wheat bead.
Autolyse for the dough flour and water do more than hydrate the flour, dosften the hard bits, begin the gluten making process of 2 of the proteins in the flour and the breaking down of starches into sugars that the wee beasties can metabolize but we know little about what these things are exactly. There are 30 proteins in flour and only 2 of them make gluten. What are the rest of these proteins and amino acids doing during autolyse? There are quite a few.enzymes in flour besides the ones that break down starch into sugar, we don't even know how many for sure - what are they doing? We do know that flavor compounds are made by amino acids and enzyme processes which may explain the various and complex flavors that end up in bread in bread but do not know how autolyse contributes to them. Many Fresh Lofians autolyse their whole grain flours for many hours and even overnight, sometimes in the fridge, because it makes for better bread from their experiences so the 1-2 hour upper limit rule of thumb for autolyse is one rule that is not quite right for many - and with good reason.
You can put bran in a levain build any time you want and i encourage people to sift it out and get it into the mix as soon as possible. Bran is still 20% starch and wee beasties love to eat the sugar made from starch after it is broken down by enzymes released once the bran gets wet., But, there is more going on than trying to get the bran as wet for as long as possible to soften it so it doesn't cut gluten strands as much making for a more open and soft crumb.
There is something different in the bran, different: enzymes, amino acids, proteins, minerals, vitamins and other nutrients that are not found in the white portion of the flour. Some of the things these extra ingredients in bran might provide to the starter, levain builds, dough and resulting bread are a mix of extra flavor compounds, more acid,.more ethanol and extra leavening ability. among so many possiblle other outcomes. Ideas are pletiful but the science is weak. The general consensus is that whole grains make for a more sour and flavorful bread - even in small amounts - why this is so remains more of a mystery.
Time is another one of the variable components . The rule of watching the dough rather than clock is a good one and meant to put tome in its place but time is one of the key components when it comes to bread, Generally speaking it is accepted that slow, or more time means more flavor of all kinds. One way to get more flavor is to let the wee beasties work on the flour ingredients for as long as possible and one way to do this is to make the preferment amount small.A small poolish or biga using a small amount of commercial yeast,or a small amount of SD preferment using a small amount of starter and a small amount of levain both of which lead to longer times and more flavor..
But most folks don't have 5 days to make a loaf of bread like i do where: starters are retarded for 20 weeks, multi grains are sprouted and milled the levain fed the sifted out bran and then it to is retarded and a small amount of levain, (10% or less) is used in the dough and the dough retarded for 24 hours. If you only have a day.the way to get more flavor in that amount of time is to increase the starter amount and increase the levain percent up to 30-40% rather than using less and adding in commercial yeast to make the timeline work out. The bread will taste different than one that takes 5 days but it will be the best you can do in a day and as good as many supposed artisan bakeries sell.
The great thing about bread is that there are so many variables.of time, temperature, flours, methods, add ins, liquids ,l etc there must be as many breads to bake as there are stars in the Milky Way and just as much unknown about both too. The fun part for me about bread making is learning about all the variables and their various combinations mean when it comes to the finished bread and knowing that stretching or breaking the makes can make all the difference.... and its all relative.
Happy baking
dabrownman
I agree, I think Alan's (as well as Mini Oven's and barryvabeache's) comments make great sense.
BTW, I could have picked just about any sentence from your response to make this point, but 'There are 30 proteins in flour and only 2 of them make gluten' will suffice.
My mind is now officially 'blown', comforted only by your closing remark that 'it's all relative'.
Quick backstory - I've been baking since I was seven years old (albeit then from the back of a 'Bisquick' box) and now for the past 55 years. Baking was just something that was fun, that I might do a few times or more a year but really, I was just playing around.
About 5 or 6 years ago I started lurking this forum and became aware of Hamelman and Reinhart and the like. And having read those books (to the extent that I understood them), they brought me out of the dark ages of measuring cups and teaspoons to weighing ounces and eventually to grams (as well as hydration rates, percentages, autolyse, ferments and many other things).
These were things never discussed in the 'Joy Of Cooking' and other such books I used to bake from.
And that led me to getting my little 'mill' that I can grind pretty much anything with, and that has led me to grinding 'sprouted grains', which is pretty much where I am right now.
I want to thank you dabrownman for opening my eyes. Even though I experienced increased 'bread pleasure' every step prior, it wasn't untill I added my (home ground) sifted bran to my levain (per several of your recipes), that I somewhat understood the potential in the persuit, not just in enjoying the bread flavor but the health of it as well.
That is why I asked the original questions, because now I'm getting serious. I want to come to terms with the terms so I don't confuse anyone (or myself).
I expect within a year, most if not all of my flour will be home ground (baby steps).
So here's my synopsis: my mother is my starter and vice versa (I guess we all started that way). I'll keep it reserved in the fridge at 100% hydration (for me) and feed every week or two.
When removed from the fridge and fed (1:1:1) I will let it rise to about 150%. I will pour off about a third for my now 'refreshed/fed' starter that goes back in the fridge. The remainder I will consider my first build levain.
My second build levain will have bran or not, but will be fed. At 150% rise, I will feed again and rise to the same point. That will be my third build levain that I will then add to my dough.
If anyone thinks any of this is fundamentaly wrong, please let me know.
I thank Minni Oven (who is always there, helpfull and ever so knowledgable) and barryvabeach and alfonso and all the others on this wonderful forum for all the help all along the way.
dobie
ps - I will be re-reading all of your comments to extract the most I can get from them. I really do appreciate all the help and thoughts.
I love the science of bread making the best and trying new things to see how the taste or crust or crumb changes. I think we are in the same place. Using whole grains, sprouting, drying and grinding grains and using them in combinations with various techniques searching for that 'never to be found' perfect loaf. Just about everything I have learned about bread i have learned here and only have Claytion's Complete Book of Bread for another reference. Thousands if recipes there ....but not one photograph. I don't see a need for much besides TFL and it certainly is cheaper that way - if you discount mills, dehydrators and other baking stuff.:-)
ehanner got me doing slap and folds. Doc.Dough got me to think about why temperatures are so important for starters levain and dough, Shaio-Ping got me thinking about all the different grains and combinations along with Ian and his add ins, txfarmer for technique and David Snyder for hydration and technique and Mini Oven for starters and rye bread along with so many others like Phil for passion and Mike Wilson for panettone. .
Now Doc.Dough has me thinking about why bran in starters and levain leads to much sour bread plus maybe some really hydration for levain.. He is doing some really cool experiments right now based on bran that I find very interesting. I'm sure he will post them when he gets the results verified. Maybe we can make some really sour white bread, with big holes, without having the bran in the mix to mess things up? new he has me wanting to do some experiments ......again:-) Now if I could afford to build a WDO and more importantly afford the wood to fire it so I could make some real traditional 'Artisan' bread:-)
Happy baking dobie
dabrownman and all responders,
I couldn't agree more about 'not fun anymore, move on'. That is my life's mantra.
I have read and re-read every response and I am taking copious notes even tho I don't respond in particular. I have learned a lot and agree (or have come to understand) with just about everything posted.
Did my first 3 build levain these past few days. All maintained at 100% hydration and fermented/risen to about 130 -140% from start.
Sprouted grain milled and screened, the bran added to the first build (with equal water) with refreshed (100% hydration AP starter), 320g total.
Second build was all of build one plus 100g sprouted flour and 100g water.
Third build was all of the second plus100g total coarse ground flax, sesame seed with sprouted flour and 100g water.
Final levain is 720g.
Final dough build; plus 165g flour and 40 g water (plus 28g each whole sunflower and pumpkin seeds and 18g salt). Final dough is 925g (minus the sunflower, pumpkin seeds and salt). 525g flour and 400g water for a 76% hydration.
Strech and fold a few times, then French slap and tickle every 20-30 minutes for a few hours. Bulk ferment (or retard?) in the fridge for 12 hours overnight. Sprouted flour is 40% (not including the bran) of the flour.
I know building a levain that will end up being about 75% of the final dough is unusual, but please remember I'm baking to my audience (too sour and she won't eat it) and I am intentionally trying for a 'less' sour, yet 'grainy' sourdough bread by using a higher percentage starter & levain build. This might be a little overboard, but it is where I am at.
It's too early to say how this will yet turn out (sour, salt, rise, gluten integrity-wise) as I am just doing my final tensions to form for the final rise (but it's behaving well so far). It probably won't be baked for three or five hours (not that I'm watching the clock). I will be baking in a hot DO.
I am currently in about 50 hours in from the first build of levain (not counting the 48 for sprouting, drying and milling grain), yet I am not a 'daily' baker. What is happening?
Thanks to you (all) for all the info and inspiration.
dobie
ps - dabrownman, how is your rocket stove doing?
Aside from not sitting on the stove...,
My last two bakes in the Dutch Oven have had wonderful tops, but nearly burnt bottoms.
On the this Sprouted Grain 'second' bake, I took the lid of at 15 minutes rather than 20 and reduced the time 5 minutes from another 20 to 15.
Top was wonderful, but bottom still (near) burnt, and thickly crusted compared to the top.
I'm at middle rack and can go down 2 slots to the bottom, but no room to go up further.
Will going down reduce the burnt bottom, or should I look for another solution?
Thanks
dobie
I had that problem. What I ended up doing was to buy a rack like this to fit in the bottom of the pan in order to elevate it. I also covered it with foil to give it more of a surface for the bread to sit on. Now I have the opposite problem, the bottom doesn't get brown enough. So, five to ten minutes before I'm finished baking, I take the loaf out and finish baking right on the oven rack. That usually does the trick.
KathyF
Thank you for the response.
Last things first (as usual), I agree that the last 5-10 minutes right on the oven rack (or stone as debrownman suggests) does the job. I have learned that thru my many mediocre baguette attempts.
I guess I'm trying to finess oven position and bake time/lid removal in a DO bake.
When you refer to the 'rack to fit the bottom' do you mean that when you remove the DO lid you would lift the half-baked bread up and insert the rack underneath for the remainder of the bake?
I think my next DO bake will be (approximately) 20 minutes lid on, 10 minutes lid off and 10 minutes out of the DO and on the rack. We'll see what happens.
Thanks again,
dobie
I bake at 450 F regular bake for 18 minutes and 5 minutes with the lid off at 425 F convection. Then the bread crust is set and is removed from the DO to finish baking on the stone for about another 10 minutes. No more burnt crust. Don't forget if the bread is getting to dark, top or bottom you can just r=turn it over or cover with foil.
High levain amounts are what you want to do when you lack time but still want MORE sour. Otherwise just keep the levain amount at 20%, don't use whole grains in it and don't retard it f you want a less sour bread - use room temperatures 70-74 F where the yeast are best suited and reproduce well to cut down the time for proof and ferment. The LAB then have less time have to make acid. Tartine and Forkish are breads designed to be less sour on purpose - because most people just don't like sour bread.
Happy baking .
dobrownan,
I'm paying attention as best as I can. Between what you have said as well as KathyF, I am going to remove the 'set' bread mid-bake and finish outside of the DO which should take care of the 'burnt bottom'.
Baking stones are driving me broke as they break so frequently (my own fault), yet I'm tired of throwing 20 to 30 bucks at a new stone, only to break one again. At this point, I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. I have not been able to find suitable, unglazed ceramic at the box stores and now (from what I've read regarding possible lead leaching), I am not sure I would buy them if I could even find them. I will finish on the oven rack for now.
Regarding high levain amounts and the higher degree of sour; I did not know that. I had heard quite the opposite, which is why I was doing it, yet I'm sure there could be some misunderstanding on my part. Of course, time at this point for me is not an issue, long or short (I'm willing to do anything).
I have seen the graph that shows the growth/temperature comparisons between yeast and lactobacillius and agree that at 70-74F both are growing close to equally and would result in a less 'sour' bread.
Personally, I like all sourdough bread, either more or less sour (repeatively, my audience doesn't feel the same way, so I feel a need to be able to control it at will).
I agree that a levain of 20% would be more reasonable and my next build will be along those lines.
But I will say that generally I would want the bran and the more whole grain component of the dough to have as much 'wet time' as possible (regarding phytic acid and associated enzymes). As I understand it, the acidic component of sourdough (starter or levain or whatever you want to call it) is a big part of reduction of phytic acid, not just 'wet time'.
At a certain point I will just have to tell my SO to deal 'with it', this is the least sour 'healthy' bread you can have (or at least, that I can bake).
Thanks again,
dobie
ps - the bread came out middling sour and is almost 'meaty' in taste. Better realized than my last attempt, still not there but the flavor is even better yet. It's almost like biting into beef.
the counter with no retard for the wife and then bake what you want for yourself. That is what i do. I also put YW in the white bread to counteract even more of the of sour. Sometimes i even bake yeast sandwich bread for her in a tin for her. because that is what she likes.
I like the idea of beef bread too:-)
One of the experiments of late has shown that sour and flavor are carried by the bran. This week's experiments is to sift out the bran as usual but instead of feeding it to the starter to make the levain, i am soaking the bran in water for 4 hours with the water used equal to the water for the levain and dough - then sifting out the bran bits after 4 hours so they never hit the mix - just the water does.. Tests by another Fresh Loafian with the proper equipment have shown that the TTA of a white levain, dough and bread is increased dramatically doing this and the crumb is not affected by gluten cutting hard bits making for a more open crumb than if they were in there - no matter how soft. More flavor and less holes is bigger holes is a win win for some. It seems the protease enzymes that cause gluten to weaken are activated by an acid, like SD, but not water while the starch breaking enzymes are activated by water. So the good enzymes will be let loose but the gluten weakening ones are held back until the acid in the levain is introduced at the levain build stage..
I'm hoping that a much more sour and flavorful white bread will be possible this way and still have that great open crumb without the bran in the mix - the best of both worlds. The problem is ......what other flavors are being carried by the starch and protein of bran that are released by acid instead of water?. Will the bread taste as good as one with the bran in it? There are a lot of proteins and compounds only found in the bran and if water won't release them into solution then something will be lost flavor and or health and nutrition wise. i could put a weak acid in the water that the bran soaks in if necessary but that will be another experiment.for another week:-)
Keep experimenting
yeah, let them eat cake. (chuckle)
Thank you for this wonderful reply dabrownman. I don't want to short change my response, so I will sleep and re-read, re-think and get back to you in the morning. Those are some truly amazing thoughts you have presented.
dobie
'Levain' is French for 'leaven'. It is usually used in the general sense of one based on wild yeast, simply because there would once have been no other kind, but it isn't French for 'sourdough', which is just a particular type of leaven common to North America.
Sourdough comes up every time. Sourdough is the same type of leaven in France, long before it came here or the UK and it is called levain. Pain au Levain isn't Leaven Bread. Type Sourdough Bread into Google translate it comes up with Pain au Levain. Yeast bread - is pain a la levure (levure is yeast), yeast water is L'eau de Levure, barm (or beer yeast) is levure be biere. Sourdough starter also translates as levain. Wine yeast is levure de vin Leaven also translates as levain so what you say is true enough as far as leaven being levain in French. I'm thinking back when sourdough was the only leaven there was no France or French language:-) all I know is when i order pain au levain in France I get sourdough bread every time
Oddly Sourdough leaven translates Levain de Levain while yeast leaven translates levain de leveures. I still think , levain is the word for sourdough in French though.
So what is the French word for Sourdough. Pardon my French :-)
Happy baking
Dbrownman "Sourdough comes up every time."
Really? Not what google translate tells me:
https://translate.google.com/?hl=en&authuser=0#fr/en/levain
...doing the Web equivalent of putting his fingers in his ears and singing 'La-la-la-I-can't-hear-you'.
Seems to be your signature.
https://translate.google.com/#auto/fr/sourdough
I couldn't give a monkey's what some on-line translation tool says because I've lived in France, I speak French and, unlike you, I know what I'm talking about, so I don't have to rely on the Internet for my information. Levain comes from the verb 'lever', meaning 'to lift or raise'. It's a general term, not a specific one, which can be applied to chemical leavening agents as well as yeast-based ones.
"I'm thinking back when sourdough was the only leaven there was no France or French language"
Firstly, sourdough was never the only leaven. I know it's your obsession but it wasn't the first type of leaven to be used and it's an American leaven. People have been making bread for longer than sourdough's been around.
Secondly, bakers' yeast has only been available for about 150 years. France and the French language have been around a LOT longer than that.
I have no idea what word the French use for sourdough. If they use one at all, which they may not as sourdough is probably no more popular there than it is in the UK, it's probably 'le sourdough'.
leaven for bread but both barm and sourdough go back to ancient Egyptian times land probably even earlier to the first recorded civilizations in Mesopotamia. No France or French then. Sourdough has been used in what is now France as long as barm too - probably before the Roman times but at least since then. America was one of the last places on earth to get sourdough since it was settled last, being the New World and grains were introduced by the Spanish monks coming up from Mexico in the late 1500's.
I find it odd that for one who lived in France and speaks French doesn't know the French word for sourdough or that it likely predates every leaven on earth for bread and likely predates them everywhere on earth.
The famous French chemist and Baking Professor Calvel found some of the oldest French sourdough recipes he found in old French cook books dating to 1290 AD. it was French bakers who relocated from France to Arcadia, to New Orleans, to San Francisco that brought French sourdough techniques to California during the 1849 gold rush and on to the Yukon in Canada. The famouse SD of SF is just French Sourdough Bread. France's Sourdough heritage is old, deep and extensive but the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and Mesopotamians were thousands of years earlier using it. The English Dutch and Germans brought SD to the East coast of N America in the 1600's so N America was last when it comes to grain and SD.
Sourdough isn't an obsession i just like it better than other breads for all kinds of reasons, taste, health and nutrition among others and it is more fun to make too.
Happy baking
I am not going to get in the middle of this, but I venture to guess that the term 'levain' by itself when used in bread will mean sourdough unless stated otherwise (even though the direct translation is leaven). Just like 'autolyse' has a meaning in bread compared to other forms of autolysis.
For the record, in Calvel's book the French for sourdough is levain naturel. However, he does take the time to explain that the term 'levain' when used in levain-levure (sponge) to remove any ambiguity. It is used because it is a starter. He also says it is because it has the firm consistency of sourdough as opposed to poolish (Calvel uses a 60% hydration starter). This would indicate that 'levain' is normally associated with sourdough:
Thank you Maverick
You are kind, generous and informative, which I appreciate very much.
dobie
Hi JonOBrien,
Thank you for the response.
Can you tell me what the difference is between the wild yeast of a French 'Levain Naturel' and the wild yeast of a US sourdough? Are either of these similar or different to (or from) the historical wild yeast leavens of Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greecian or Roman times?
Thanks again,
dobie
...for an archeomycologist to me.
Jon,
It just seems to me that you think there is a fundamental difference between a wild yeast French levain and a wild yeast US 'Sourdough' levain, and I'm just wondering what that might be (historical or not)?
dobie
The French don't go in for sour bread, so they don't let their leaven cultures become sour. You'll find the tang of lactic acid in amongst the other, complex flavours in French breads but not the astringency of ascetic acid.
And it's because their leavens aren't sour that levain isn't French for sourdough.
I hear you Jon,
So it's not that there is any fundamental difference in the levain culture but more a matter of how it is treated/developed so as to avoid the ascetic 'sourness' which apparently the French (like my SigOther) do not particularly appreciate.
If that's right, we're good, if not, please comment further. You speak the language and you have lived there, so that's a lot of credibility I think.
dobie
"So it's not that there is any fundamental difference in the levain culture but more a matter of how it is treated/developed"
Not being a wild yeast culture aficionado I can't point to where the exact differences lie, I'm afraid. I'd just note that sourness is such a prominent attribute of one of them that it forms part of the leaven's name and that the other doesn't produce bread with a prominently sour flavour.
Jon
Are you suggesting a French levain couldn't produce a dough or bread as sour as an American levain, if so desired?
dobie
I don't have any idea what could or couldn't be done with a French levain.
I'm sorry Jon
I just assumed that since you spoke French and have lived in France, that you would be familiar with the levain/bread you are referring to.
dobie
...and know something of the levain from my reading but that doesn't impart any insight into what might or might not be possible with it, only with what it's actually used to produce.
Reading is reading, doing is doing and knowing is knowing.
Do or do not, there is no try.
dobie
...if I ever figure out what you mean. ;-)
mythical philosopher of all time or..... if you think he he is bigger than life.... the best ever:-) Hopefully we will see some more of him soon.
"Because worth it, I am!" - Yoda on l'Oreal
You can buy a couple of middle eastern sourdough cultures at http://www.sourdo.com/
I've found that if you don't sterilize your flour (bakedry flour at 220 for an hour) their specialty cultures may be overpowered by native yeast in your flour when you activate them. The have a much more distinct character if you use sterilized flour when you first activate them. After the culture is established it will overpower the yeast in unsterilized flour and retain it's distinct character indefinitely.
ph_kosel
Thank you for the response.
That is a very interesting point you make (regarding native yeasts in flour fed to a starter, overpowering a particular 'imported' culture).
Can I assume you are saying that wild yeast leavens are different from region to region. BTW, I have no idea, never had the opportunity to compare them.
So, if I assume they are somewhat different, they might have different flavor profiles (or other characteristics), can I also assume that they all share basic, fundamental similarities such as yeast and lacotbacilius colonies (of one type or another) that generate acedic and lactic acids. Would they not all be 'sour' then, to some degree?
Just asking.
dobie
The folks at sourdo.com are probably much better qualified to answer such questions than I am. I do remember reading somewhere that wild yeasts can be regional but lactobacili are less so, if I recall correctly.
I have a "finnish" culture from sourdo.com that keeps it's distinctly different color over the years. It seems to have a different flavor/arma too, although my old tastebuds ain't what they once were.
Thanks ph_kosel
I will check out the folks at sourdo.com.
Can I ask where you came by your 'finnish' culture, what color it is and what you feed it?
Thanks
dobie
I have taken to using the term levain as the substance that is refrigerated long-term, and starter the dough ingredient made from the levain.
What is the correct French pronunciation of levain?
I've heard le-VAN with a short "a" and I've heard people speaking French pronounce it le-VON with a short "o".
if you're interested enough, find a video or two where French bakers say the word.
Google will pronounce it for you.
https://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#fr/en/levain
Neither one is correct :)
ain is a nasal sound not found in English and it is in between a and i.
I mentioned the word Levain to a French lady and she pronounced it closer to Levan (but obviously with French enunciation). It isn't "ain" how an English speaker would pronounce it.
You can hear the pronunciation here : https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/levain
It's pronounced like the common expression "à demain" (see you tomorrow).
It's closer to the English short "o", with a long "e".
Great example of a circular definition.
Not really.
The added data is that "demain" is in fact pronounced as "levain" (in French, as in English, having the same letters doesn't imply the same pronunciation), and the proportion of examples of people pronouncing "à demain" compared to "levain" must surpass a million to one.
Anyway, I also provided a link to the pronunciation in audio, so :P
Levain de Campagne | LevAn dee Cam-pan-yay | Country LOAF
Pain au Levain | Pan au LevAn | SOURDOUGH Bread
[I realise my transliteration might not be perfect and open to discussion but my point is the word levain is used differently]
many other words do. Levain de Champagne translates to Leaven of Chanpagne where Champagne au Levain traslates as Chamgagne Sourdough. So right there levain means leaven and sourdough....and we also know it also means sourdough starter
All translations by Bing this time:-)
Sourdough also has another meaning in English than the sour starter and the bread. it also means the early prospectors and settlers to Alaska and Yukon of Canada during the gold rush days because they had some sourdough starter in there shirt pockets next to their warm bodies to keep it warm so they could make sourdough bread in the winter where ever they were.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pain+au+Levain
Sourdough Sam is the mascot of the NFL's San Franciso 49'ers where gold rush prospectors leaving from San Francisco were commonly called Sourdoughs by the locals
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Sourdough+Sam
happy baking
I feed established starters as follows:
1 spoonful old starter+150g flour+100g water
let rise 24 hrs at room temperature
refrigerate
Thank you ph_kosel
Regular old AP flour? Also, I really would like to know the color (I'm guessing yellowish) and where you got it.
In my earlier readings about sourdough (or perhaps I should say 'wild yeast/lactobacillius cultures') I was told that they were indeed regional in species (probably the wrong term, but you know what I mean I hope) and thus, of different flavor characteristics.
Upon further research I was told quite definitely that they were all very much the same. Such is the wonder of Wikipedia.
I have only tasted the cultures I can create in my own location so I have no idea if there are differences or not (I'm not a Lab Rat nor do I have access to a microscope and I don't even know if a microscope would be the tool to use). Regardless,
Thanks
dobie
I sterilized a 5-lb bag of cheap AP flour for activating new cultures from sourdo.com. After that I used King Arthur unbleached bread flour to feed the established culture.
Thank you ph_kosel - good to know on the feed.
I am still desperatly curious as to the color and where did you get it from?
dobie
flour is that high heat that sterilizes also deactivates the enzymes that break starch down into the sugars LAB and yeast can eat as well as deactivating protease enzymes plus all the other enzymes in flour, many of which we don't even know what they do, other than some break protein chains that release amino acids that create the complex flavors in bread.
I never actually EAT bread made with sterilized flour, only use it for activating new starters purchased from sourdo.com. The objective in that case is to feed the purchased starter WITHOUT introducing other microorganisms in the flour not to achieve a nice tasting final bake. If one uses unsterile flour one risks the native organisms in the unsterile flour competing with and overcoming and dominating those few pathetic survivors in the purchased starter which have withstood dehydration and indefinite storage.
Once the new starter is fully activated the purchased organisms seem to easily dominate over any native organisms in unsterilized flour; I only use unsterilized flour to activate purchased starters, not to bake bread.
I started doing it this way after asking a chef with a refined palette to sample bread made with two different purchased starters. He found no detectable difference, as did I. I concluded that there was a problem and solved it as best I could. Using sterilized flour to activate purchased flour seems to help develop distinctly different cultures. I maintain two starters, "SanFrancisco" and "Finland". The Finland culture rises faster and has a distinctly light brownish color compared to the more palid SanFrancisco culture.
I mean I only use STERILIZED flour to activate purchased starters, not to bake bread.
I'm wondering what the new starter is supposed to eat if the flour been fed to it is dead and there is no sugar for the wee beasties to feast on once they wake up after getting wet again. They have to be eating something.
I'm guessing the flour isn't really dead and there is still plenty to eat and no as sterile as we think.
Oddly, all of my starters over the years have changed over time to where ever I was living and what was baking fed to them no matter how vigorous and healthy they were when moved. Commercial yeast or other non acid loving microbes won't take over but when i fold other starters into my base one, something I do 4-6 times a year that changes the mother too. But just feeding it different flour over time does the same thing.
The microrganisms eat the carbohydrates etc in the flour, not other microorganisms. They do fine eating sterilized flour.
The LAB in sourdough eat maltose and the yeast eat glucose , Both of their foods are bound up in the flours starch carbohydrates that neither can eat. Here is a link to a post that shows how some of the enzymes in flour break starchss into the simple sugars the wee beasties can eat. High heat denatures the enzymes and the poor things then have little to eat
http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.HTML
Also, LAB can eat dead yeast too - they are strange beasts
Perhaps you'd like to stop telling me how it won't work and simply try it yourself. 220F for one hour. That's my sterilization protocol. When you've proved to yourself that yeast will happily eat the stuff you may wish to amend your comments.