The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

With taste and texture conquered, how I need help with flavor.

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

With taste and texture conquered, how I need help with flavor.

Although this is the Pizza, Focaccia and flat bread forum, I believe I have the link that warrants this post here.

I make croissants and loaves of bread that look and chew exactly as I want them.  However, they taste like Styrofoam as the store bought Kaiser rolls do.  Rye and other flavors added help but don't quite cut it.  It is not a matter of salt either.  I have tried many concoctions.

I am told it is all in fermentation. I have tried many techniques but that all come out the same.  I am sure I need some education in this.  Please help.

A bit of history and how this relates to Pizza:

As I have mentioned in other discussions, for the last 30 years, I have been obsessed with Jerry's Pizza in Middletown CT.  When I started making my own bread recently, I am now obsessed seeking the same results.

In short, I claim that he uses bread dough instead of pizza dough as all other pizza makers seem to do.  It is my opinion that he uses bread dough because it comes out of the oven with that intoxicating fresh bread odor/flavor as no other pizza does.  With all the discussions that I have had with Jerry we cannot seem to figure out why other than he might be holding out on me.

I always order it plain with just sauce and mozzarella so I know it is not the quality of the toppings.  He uses whole-milk Polly-o mozzarella that he shreds there in the restaurant.  He makes his own sauce.  These help but still that bread flavor is the question.

Some improvement happened when used the "Hummel" flour that he gave me but it is not quite as good as the croissants that I can get at the grocery store.

 

 

 

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Post your recipe and how you make it, that may spur some comments.  In general, many pizza makers develop flavor in their dough by extended fermentation.   A common schedule is to make the dough a day or two in advance, and allow it to ferment in the refrigerator.   Have you visited www.pizzamaking.com.   There are tons of posts that deal with different recipes and techniques.  Finally, the temperature at which you bake  the pizza can have a tremendous impact on the taste.  I have baked the same recipe at 500 F and 650 F , and the one at 500 F was pretty bland and the one at 650 F was great.   

fupjack's picture
fupjack

What works for me so far

  • Pre-fermentation of a percentage of the flour and water
  • Baking at as high a temperature as possible
  • baking on something dense - a stone or metal, and giving the stove enough time to heat it up fully.

I don't think it's ingredients, but technique and tools, probably.

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

I prefer to change one technique at a time.  This stems from my years of writing code.

Yes, Increased temperature made a good change.
I now have an oven stone.  That will be next.

Both of those are relatively easy.

I guess Preferment is the one that is left.  IT is going to take some research and commitment for that one...
Thanks...

 

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Pizza is baked at temperatures that are higher than most home ovens are capable of, I think that is what makes it hard to replicate at home.  It changes the crust texture and chew when it is cooked longer at lower temperature. 

Gerhard

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

I had been baking according to the directions what stated 350d.  At 550, I get better results.  I believe that Jerry cooks his at 600 so I am not all that far off.  He does keep his ovens running 24/7 but I am not all that dedicated (:

I have been cooking pizza and bread but mostly Croissants.

 

sallam's picture
sallam

Fermentation is key to great flavor. Either use a sourdough starter and ferment at room temperature for at least 6-7 hours, or retard in the fridge for 24-48 hours.

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

but I still cannot seem to improve any flavor other than that of Styrofoam as is found in bakeries and markets..  I tried to make bread myself because I was just not finding it anywhere that is as good as  remember.

At first I was thinking that my memory was deceiving me to believe it used to be great until I had a grinder at Jerry's Pizza place in Middletown CT.  I always said that he has great pizza but his grinder rolls are the best!  He says that he gets them from New York City and does not sell them as just rolls.

So, the experimenting goes on.  I tried all sorts of solutions proposed here but nothing beats my memory or Jerry's. 

I tried Barley Malt but no.  Next will be either Rye or Whey.