Strange kneading behavior for 70% hydration dough
I will start with that I'm fairly new to bread/pizza making. I've been reading and studying up on everything and today I was doing a pizza dough recipe for the second time. I mixed everything by weight in my Kitchenaid with dough hook. It mixed up nicely and grabbed the hook and started bouncing around on a setting of 2. Instructions in the recipe were to knead for 5 minutes so I let it go at this speed while I cleaned up a bit.
When I returned (couldn't have been much more than 5 minutes later) the dough was back to being "collapsed" and grabbing the bottom of the bowl.
I took it out and tried to work it on my cutting board but it was grabbing on to my cutting board no matter how much I tried to tidy it up with a dough scraper. I eventually threw down a bit of flour and that made it somewhat workable and got it into a oiled bowl and it seems fine so far.
Just wondering why it collapsed on me. I'm used to that indicating complete dough breakdown but surely that can't happen after only 5 minutes in a mixer? I've been watching a number of youtube bread channels so I was trying to avoid adding extra flour during balling but this seemed impossible and the dough was practically glued to the surfaces it touched.
It's been a few hours now, so what became of the dough?
I had the exact thing happen to me a couple weeks ago, making a 75% hydration pizza dough that was supposed to be kneaded for 5 min. I, also, used #2 speed and the dough came together nice & smooth, cleared the sides and the bottom of the bowl in under 5 min. I was using bread flour, btw. I left it because other doughs have never developed in that short a time at that speed, and like you, I got a sticky mess. Can't remember if I did a windowpane test before it got sticky, but afterwards it just tore. This was all within 5-7 min.
I was confused then, whether it had somehow broken down in that short a time, or if it was wildly underkneaded. A 75% dough always sticks to the bottom of (my) bowl and is supposed to, so why had it cleared the bottom? I ended up chucking the dough and starting over. Hand kneaded the next one and it was fine.
I'm going to have to repeat that recipe and keep a close eye on what is happening in the mixer.
In terms of how it turned out....not bad! I divided the dough after letting it sit out for a bit on the counter. The first crust I made stretched out nicely. Only thing I noticed is there was a section of the dough that felt wetter...it was more sticky and I couldn't really press it down in that area to make a more defined crust. It baked up very nicely though.
The second crust obviously sat out a bit longer after dividing. I was surprised that it was really resisting stretching compared to the first. I let it sit a few minutes and then tried again and got it stretched a bit but it was definitely still resisting more than the first. I would comment on how it baked up but unfortunately (remember the new part) I topped it on the cutting board and was not able to transfer it to the peel cleanly ::facepalm::
What kind of flour? I've never actually seen over-kneaded bread flour.
I believe this flour was likely Gold brand bread flour. Normally I do King Arthur bread flour but my wife bought this one in a great attempt to save some money :)
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I see you like thick-crusted pizza. My wife and I like the crust paper thin and crispy (NY style). Either way it looks good, even with the pineapple ;0). I'm with the others, add a bit more water and oil. Should make the dough a little easier to work.
Believe it or not I prefer thin crust tavern style pizza the best. I’m just working my way into the pizza realm and haven’t attempted different styles yet. This is just the first from scratch recipe (second time) I have done. Kids loved it so I’m good with it if they are.
Well, for a seeming mistake, that dough turned out well.
I repeated my sloppy mess recipe and have come to the conclusion that the dough had not broken down (time was way too short). In a few minutes it cleared the sides and bottom of the bowl. Then, like last time, it got wetter and stuck--in a large area--to the bottom. I believe this is just the moisture being incorporated more fully into the flour. I left it in the mixer for the recommended 5 min. Then a rest of 20 and slap & folds until smooth and windowpane. The slap & folds were a gobby mess, but I did not add flour. Eventually, I got it into a semblance of a ball and into the bowl to rise. By the time the dough went into the freezer, it was gorgeous. Actually, I think that's the first time I've got that shine that indicates proper gluten development (the dough, not me).
So, I don't think there was anything wrong with your dough and you will have to learn, through practice, to work with wet dough, and not add more flour. It's ok to lightly dust the work surface when it's being stretched or rolled.
Rondayvous: My flour is Sam's Club (Membeers' Mark) Bread & Pizza Flour, which is a mystery unto itself. Think I'll start another thread about it.
Thanks for your kind comments and yes it was quite delish! I really wanted to let this cold ferment for a full day or two in the fridge but I lost a day and so had to do it in 18 hours. Really happy though and it was able to form a bit of a crust unlike last time where it all came out to around the same thickness because shaping wasn't much of an option. I assume this was because it was overproofed (it probably tripled in size even though it was in the fridge).
Are there any really good repositories for tried and true pizza dough recipes? I'm frustrated that most I run across insist "you don't need to let it rise" or "only 20 minute rise!". If I'm making my own dough I am not looking for convenience...I'm looking for great results. Plus, I find leaving it in the fridge is far more convenient than trying to make it and bake it fresh the same day.
There's an interesting book by Jim Lahey: "My Pizza". Lahey is the person who started the no-knead bread method which became popularized b a New York Times article. He has a successful pizza restaurant in New York City. The book is more about the toppings and sides, but it includes his method for no-knead pizza dough.
You might want to take a look at the Pizza Making Forum:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php
You will find a lot of recipes for many different styles of pizza. Kind of the pizza version of TFL.
TomP
Tom, that pizza forum looks like the answer to all pizza problems. Just the kind of layout that I like, too.
On TFL, there are a couple very lengthy topics that contain a wealth of information & recipes. First one is the founder's pizza primer from 2005, the second a pizza community bake.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/pizza
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60568/community-bake-pizza
And this one, which I haven't yet tried, but like the look of, is an 80% hydration, open crumb dough. It's same day, but I don't see why you couldn't lengthen the process.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19240/superb-sandwich-bread-perfected-honey-wheat-sourdough-luscious-brownies-andpizza-pizza-pi