The Fresh Loaf

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Pane Soffiato: Getting hollow Rosetta and Tartaruga rolls

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rjerden's picture
rjerden

Pane Soffiato: Getting hollow Rosetta and Tartaruga rolls

Success at last. A new technique for forming the rolls by flattening the dough in a pasta machine and then rolling them up under tension like a spring has at last given me the hollow interiors that I have been trying to get for the past 4 years.

See the recipe and technique on my Facebook page:  Click on the pictures to follow the recipe and instructions:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=708406785837690&set=a.708405802504455.1073741833.100000051251593&type=3&theater

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Sweet! Looks brilliant. Well done.

Can't see the recipe on the link provided. Just pictures.

EDIT: Ok I see instructions with each picture opened up. Any chance you can post the formula here. I know these breads use a biga with most of the total flour.

rjerden's picture
rjerden

Ingredients are on the first picture but I will repeat them here. In any case, it's the classic rosetta recipe, indirect method, 16-20hr biga, 52% final hydration. I use Gold Medal bread flour with good results.

Ingredients:
Biga: 
800g of bread flour ( I use Gold Medal)
350g of water @75 degrees F.
1 tsp instant yeast

Final Mix: 
All the biga (18hr fermentation)
80g bread flour
1 tbsp Diastatic Malt Powder
108g refrigerated H2O
1 tbsp fine salt

mwilson's picture
mwilson

That formula looks just as I was expecting it to.

Sorry. Sometimes I need to be spoon-fed these things. Thanks

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and what do you stuff in them?  I can think of all kinds of fillings!  

-not to mention a cheese liner-

That is so cool!

Antilope's picture
Antilope

A bread geode. Cool!

CeciC's picture
CeciC

Is that pattern cutting think necessary to create the big hole in the middle?

 

rjerden's picture
rjerden

Yes, it creates weak areas so the gluten can break when it expands enough, which makes the big cavity. At least this is what I have read.

yy's picture
yy

. . . that there isn't some kind of sorcery going on here :-)

I've never seen anything like that before. Thanks for sharing! I'm curious to try it myself.

rjerden's picture
rjerden

The two critical components in terms of technique are getting a tight roll that is under tension and lots of steam in the first 5 minutes of baking.

Don't skimp on the biga fermentation either. It's important to have a dough which is both elastic and extensible.

dosco's picture
dosco

Those are awesome. Well done!

DoubleMerlin's picture
DoubleMerlin

What is the rolling technique after they are flattened? Rolling like a hotdog? Or like rolling into a ball? And then is there a proof time or do they go right into a hot, steamy oven?

This is something I want to try to replicate.

gerda39's picture
gerda39

These are amazing! Isecond yy, I've never seen anything like it. Would love to try this myself. Which pattern is more likely to yield the result for trhe first attempt? Is there a good step-by-step instructions I can find somewhere online (or off) to help me through the process for the first time?

rjerden's picture
rjerden

All the questions above are covered in the Facebook album for which I provided the url in the original post. The explanations and step-by-step instructions are in the descriptions of the photos. Please read. If you have a question not covered by the instructions, please post it. Here is the url again. You can view the pictures even if you don't belong to Facebook.

Click on the pictures to follow the recipe and instructions:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=708406785837690&set=a.708405802504455.1073741833.100000051251593&type=3&theater

gerda39's picture
gerda39

rjerden,

Thank you for the clarification - I had looked at the photo page, but have not gone through them individually, and so did not realize there were comments. I think others were similarly confused... The explanations are very detailed and generous.

As this technique is new to me, I did want to clarify a few things. It is possible that they would become self-explanatory once I am actually working with this recipe, but there is no worse place than standing in the middle of the kitchen with hands covered in dough, and suddenly confused about how to proceed...

1. You say that when you run the dough through the pasta machine 3 or 4 times, you fold it in half every time. On the short side, right? To get the piece of dough longer, not wider, right?

2. How long does the stretched out under-tension ribbon of dough should be approximately when I am done stretching and start rolling it up?

3. When the roll of dough ribbon is done, you say to flatten it. But the photo seems to look more like you 'rolled' it a bit on the counter to form a ball, instead of just pressed down on it with the palm of your hand or something to flatten it. Do I really just press down on it?

4. When you use one of the cutters, you say to cut "all the way". Like, all the way through, all the way to the counter? Or almost all the way?

5. After "cutting", you say to let it rise 1/12 hour. Do you mean 5 minutes (60 minutes/12)? Or is this just a typo and you mean an hour and a half?

6. And also just a question I asked in my previous post - which of the two cutting patterns, or the Kaiser roll press, is more likely to produce some sort of a result for someone new to this method?

Thank you in advance if you can address a few of these points.

:) 

rjerden's picture
rjerden

Good questions!

1. You say that when you run the dough through the pasta machine 3 or 4 times, you fold it in half every time. On the short side, right? To get the piece of dough longer, not wider, right?

Actually, I fold it on the long side a few times until the gluten is well stretched and elastic, then I fold it on the short side the last two times. It might take more than 3-4 times. I might flour it once if it seems too wet.

2. How long does the stretched out under-tension ribbon of dough should be approximately when I am done stretching and start rolling it up?

I didn't measure, but about 40cm i guess. i just stretch it out until it feels tight. if it relaxes, it hasn't been worked enough. it needs to be really elastic.

3. when the roll of dough ribbon is done, you say to flatten it. but the photo seems to look more like you 'rolled' it a bit on the counter to form a ball, instead of just pressed down on it with the palm of your hand or something to flatten it. do i really just press down on it?

If I'm using the professional rosetta stamp, I pinch the ends closed to form a ball. This works in all cases, but is not necessary. It gives better results with that stamp, which most people are not going to have.

4. When you use one of the cutters, you say to cut "all the way". Like, all the way through, all the way to the counter? Or almost all the way? 

With the professional stamp, which does not actually cut, you have to press all the way down to form the rosette. With the apple slicer, it has a tendency to separate the dough too much if it is pressed all the way down, so I recommend just going half-way down. The french fry cutter doesn't have this problem, so you can press it all the way.

5. After "cutting", you say to let it rise 1/12 hour. Do you mean 5 minutes (60 minutes/12)? Or is this just a typo and you mean an hour and a half?

Typo. It's 1 1/2 hours. I'll fix it in the description. Thanks.

6. And also just a question I asked in my previous post - which of the two cutting patterns, or the Kaiser roll press, is more likely to produce some sort of a result for someone new to this method?

Actually, I did cover this in the text. The French Fry cutter gives the best results. In fact, that's all I'm using anymore. I had to buy the rosetta stamp in Italy on a special side trip as you just can't get them here.  I only got the idea of the FF cutter recently and tried it as an experiment. Wish I had known.

Also, I changed the link in the post to go to the first picture instead of the album. Hopefully it is less confusing this way.

Cheers,

Roy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

French fry cutter and isn't that an apple slicer/corer?    We are going to play in the kitchen now!  

Wowwee! didn't have to go into zero gravity to do it!   

Took me a while to find the directions but ... ever try cutting using the pill box?

rjerden's picture
rjerden

Based on the previous questions, I have made some notes on the batch I made today and also updated the recipe.

1. I fold the doughball 6 times when rolling it out. Four times on the long side and two times on the short side to make a long narrow ribbon.

2. I stretch the ribbon out about 24-28 inches before I roll it up. It should be about 3cm wide after it is stretched.