The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Now I know what you rye people are saying!

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theresasc's picture
theresasc

Now I know what you rye people are saying!

I created a rye starter a few weeks ago.  I have been experimenting with 100% rye bread because I have a family member who can no longer tolerate gluten, yet loves bread.

I have read about how wonderful rye starters smell, and my young little starter just smelled like beer.  Starting on Wednesday, I have been doing a 1:2:2 feeding every 12 hours, and now my starter smells wonderful!  I could just sit with my nose in the jar, I cannot believe the difference in aromas from a few days ago.  I am baking tomorrow and am looking forward to the results.

Theresa

 

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

Don't forget this for somebody with celiac, as even the smallest amount could be bad.

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Hi Theresa,

Are you aware that rye does indeed contain the proteins necessary to create gluten?  While rye does not possess that same properties as wheat relative to gluten, it does make some gluten and as I said contains the necessary proteins.  For those with gluten sensitivities sometimes rye is okay and sometimes not.   There is misinformation that labels rye as gluten free and it most definitely is not.

Jeff

theresasc's picture
theresasc

I meant to say that my family member has problems with wheat products.  I have made 100% rye with no troubles.  I started this thread just to comment on the great fragrance from a mature rye starter.

Theresa

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

especially at room temp or slightly warmer.  We rye people sure do like our rye.   The starter is just an intro to the aromas to come during baking!   I wonder if anyone has written a song or poem specifically to rye aromas.

Welcome to the dark side!

Fred Rickson's picture
Fred Rickson

I do an 80% rye which is brick-like, but perfect for snacking. Just curious as to what your 100% "loaf" is like.

theresasc's picture
theresasc

My 100% rye is very dense and moist, and I find the flavor to be very strong, but smooth.  I have been using Mini's favorite 100% rye formula.  The last loaf that I made rose in the pan and eveything - just like real bread:)  It made a difference in using my starter after it had matured a bit.  

Theresa

Fred Rickson's picture
Fred Rickson

If you want to try some additions, I offer the following.  My build comes to about 12 C total flour for the three loaves I bake.  The day before baking I add a cup of Costco dry chopped onion (really onion flakes), and maybe 1/8th cup powered caraway seeds (coffee grinder) and 1/3 C whole caraway seeds.  In the past I have added chopped nuts, but the rye sourdough is so strong that you really can't appreciate any nut flavor.  Just thinking.

theresasc's picture
theresasc

Thanks for the good ideas - your bread must be so tasty!  I have added roasted garlic and rosemary to my everyday ap/ww flour bread that I make, but have not added any flavors to the ryes yet.

I am thinking of trying my rye with the addition of chickpea flour to see if it will lighten up the bread.  I really like the 100% rye, but sometimes it is almost over-powering in flavors.  I am striving toward a nice, gluten and gum free sandwich bread, a family member has wheat issues but loves sandwiches.  I had such a nice rise out of my last bake that I am hoping my starter can support some additions of different flours without having to add gums or starches.

 

 

Fred Rickson's picture
Fred Rickson

Well my "playing with rye" goes back 40 years.  I started with rye because my favorite meal (not just a sandwich) is a Reuben.  Jewish Reuben in NY and LA, salmon Reuben in San Francisco, Spam Reuben in Hawaii, and Keys Reuben in Florida with lobster or grouper.  I even made an egg salad Reuben once. 

 After all of that, and my breadmaking, I am convinced that a great rye sandwich loaf comes in at about 50% rye.  You can certainly make a sandwich loaf with more rye, but I think the bread begins to overpower the sandwich.....especially with something like lobster.  On the other hand, a slice of my 80% rye, cut into quarters and schmeared with a mashed smoked fish/capers/cream cheese topping, leaves 'em gasping for more.  Just some random thoughts....think I'll go grab a slice of rye about now.
theresasc's picture
theresasc

When you reduce the percentage of rye in your breads, are you using any non-wheat flours?  I agree with you that for sandwiches the heavier percentage ryes will tend to overpower what is on the sandwich.  This discussion made me pull my starter out to freshen it up!  I believe I have a bake in my near future!

Fred Rickson's picture
Fred Rickson

Other than Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye, any flour is King Arthur Whole Wheat.  Nothing really special in those brands, I just started using them a while back and they work for me.  Even with the 50% rye I like the other half to be whole wheat.  Early on I tried using some enriched white bread flour, but just kept coming back to the whole wheat.  I spent three years in the San Francisco area in the '60s and got hooked on making a long-build, regular sourdough. When I put the long-build sourdough into my onion/caraway Reuben rye, I knew I was hooked forever on combining those two bakes.

Best,

Fred

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

Bug report sent.

Fred Rickson's picture
Fred Rickson

Please help with understanding.  Thanks.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

at 3 am Sat to bag and stick into the oven the whole weekend.  We went out the door to catch a bus.  Now's it's Monday and I can't wait to sink my teeth into it knowing it was waiting Sat and Sunday for me.  From mixing the dough to baking was a little over 3 hrs.  I had let the paste ferment for two hours before spooning it into a loaf pan and shaping it.  After about an hour it was rising and a few bubbles started piercing the surface,  A docking and quick heating of the oven and in it went for an hour at 200°C with an inverted baking pan on top of it.  Half way thru rotated the pan, off came the cover and Came out with an inside temp of 94°C.  

Standard Mini rye formula (1:3.5:4.16 or s:w:f) for 175g starter fermented w/ 90g altus and 50g chia +200g extra water.  Dry stirred ingredients added to the wet.  I wasn't sure of the amount of starter (think I was a bit over so I just made sure I added enough water to get my total weight of water + starter (1077g.)  Ready to add more if needed.  

The starter was pure joy to look at.  I had started out with a rounded teaspoon and added water and flour, then grabbed some frozen slices and dunked them under the tap to wash off ice crystals and thaw the bread faster.  Broke it into large bits and stuck them in around the edges of the starter and over the top.  Then covered with a glass plate.  It all rose slowly overnight in a cool kitchen and fell just a little when I banged it lightly on the table around 8 am.  I had lots to do so I hung up the wash, ran out for a hair cut (bank, store, you know) and returned to mix up the dough early afternoon.  Lovely aroma.  Washed out my new blouse for the week-end.  

Yes, well my Chilean visa expired Sunday and I already had an extension so I had to leave the country to re-start the visa process.  Happens often enough only ...  where to go?  Thought about getting on a boat and heading out into the Pacific to come back.  We (hubby too) ended up taking buses into Argentina via Mamuil Malal pass.  Beautiful area inside national parks, trees, volcanoes, nature, you sorta get the idea.   Everything was booked rather quickly, paid reciprocal fee via internet and we ended up in San Martin del los Andes.  Off season, beautiful weather, european Alps style city, clean streets, great food, sauna, hot tub, luxury suite and real coffee!  If a dog had eaten my passport, would have had to stay there all pampered taking in the autumn colors and fresh lake air.  If only...   But the bakery had no rye...  or brioche!  Only a short visit but we could have spent days wandering the area!  Worth the long trip just for the change and fall colors!  Town was established on my husband's birthday a suggested sign we should retire there.  There would be small town public celebrations on both our birthdays!

The long bus trip back did remind me a rye loaf was waiting at home. I don't think I have ever waited this long before cutting a loaf.  Cut slices for lunch open faced sandwiches.  Egg salad is good that way!  Tuna too!  I just covered my with butter.

Lots of paperwork mishaps on the Chile boarder, one in each direction.  No matter how careful one is with the paperwork,  was glad to have made copies and scans before the journey.   Also sent email copies to my husband's i-pad that saved the day's boarder crossing, just before the battery wore down.  I am going to save the bus tickets too before the type fades.  Proof of date, crossing etc.  We got back to Temuco early enough to catch a 9pm bus to L.A. instead of 11:35pm so we got home before the later bus left Temuco.  Busses are an excellent way to travel!  

yum!  rye!

theresasc's picture
theresasc

You had what sounds like a very nice side trip, and then came home to bread!  I have not tried using an altus yet, all of my 100% ryes have gone to a different home (but I did get a taste of each).  

Am I reading correctly that the altus is part of the flour that makes up the built-up starter?  And what is chia?  I am still muddling my way around on the dark side:)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

As it is already baked bread and balanced both in moisture (if not dunk it) and salt  I hardly ever figure it into the formula.  The broken crumb and crust add both body and increase flavour when thrown into the innoculated starter adding extra rich flavour while time works on it.  It also gets fermented twice providing some food for the yeasts and Labs.  How much food I'm not sure but in a fix, I will feed a rye starter rye altus before changing the flour to wheat or anything else.  

If left too long in the starter (after the initial rise) one does have to include it as prefermented flour as it does have an impact shortening rise and proof times.   

Chia is a seed.  I always debate with myself if chia should be included as a flour but unless I grind it, it stays as a seed in the dough.  It absorbes 4 times it's weight in water so I use it as a water releasing ingredient when increasing the hydration.  I get the dough feel of lower hydration for a great shape to the dough (without it flowing) and the seeds give up their moisture during the bake adding to the height of the rye loaf.  The rye paste mixes up easily when the chia is stirred into the rye flour.  After it has had time to soak, 30 minutes later, the paste stiffens up considerably.  If salt is added to the flour or the liquids when mixing, this is a pure no knead recipe.  Mix-rise-shape-rise-dock-bake.  Only a bowl and spatula get messy.  With chia it is much easier to put a ball of 100% rye into a floured banneton to rise for 30 to 45 minutes.   Chia has higher protein and lower carbohydrates than grains.  The chia here is coming from Mexico.  The rye is local and contains a lot of bran flakes.