The Fresh Loaf

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Tartine without Dutch Oven - running away?

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Salilah's picture
Salilah

Tartine without Dutch Oven - running away?

I've recently bought Tartine Bread book, and am trying the basic sourdough loaf


The stretch and fold seems to go fine, though I have needed to use a bit of flour for the pre-shaping / rough shaping, and for the final shaping.  The final shaping seems fine - quite a nice ball!  I've then proofed this in a linen-lined basket and it rises OK (if not that much).  The proof time feels short to me - I've poked it to the stage when it doesn't spring back fully...


The problem is when I turn it out - it loses all its height and makes a bid to ooze off the peel!  I've almost no time to score it, it's such a rush to get it onto the baking stone before it completely flattens (last night it tried to ooze off the stone!)...


The bread rises beautifully in the oven, the crumb is nice (if a bit over-proofed perhaps, with a bit of a flying top), it doesn't break through the scores much, but does rise upwards - however, it is still quite a low profile


I tried reducing hydration a bit last time - and if anything, it oozed more!  I'm using quite a high gluten flour (Waitrose Canadian Spring)


Any suggestions please?


 

jcking's picture
jcking

According to Michael Ganzle - U. of Hohenheim, Germany (sourdough research).


The the optimum temps for sourdough;


Yeast = 28C/82F  LAB = 30C/86F


With commercial yeast low and slow is the norm for more flavor. The same doesn't apply to sourdough. Use warm water when building the dough and take your dough temp. Find a warm place to raise the dough. This will help the dough not to spread. Yes the dough may be over-proofed. The poke should spring back slowly and nearly all the way back. The high gluten should be cut with a little (5%) whole wheat and 20 to 30% of a lower gluten flour.


Jim


 

Salilah's picture
Salilah

Jim - thanks - so you are suggesting that if I bulk ferment and proof at a slightly higher temperature, the dough won't spread as much?


The recipe has 10% WW flour, however I can also try a lower gluten


thanks for the suggestions!


Sali

jcking's picture
jcking

Exactly ferment and proof at a higher temp. Try mixxing the lower with the higher gluten until you find the results you desire.


Jim

Salilah's picture
Salilah

Another weekend, another attempt!

This time I tried
a) starter refreshed with rye (as I had it) - it bubbled great and floated in water after overnight refresh
b) higher proportion of WW - 100g with 400g white (still the very strong Canadian)
c) slightly less water 340g (though not much less, as I think the WW absorbs more?)

I also bulk fermented in the airing cupboard which is a fair bit warmer than the rest of the house (which was at around 20C)

Overnight proof in the fridge at 4C (from 5pm to 10am) then around an hour in the kitchen at 20C waiting for oven to warm up

It stayed a lot more formed (Higher) when I turned it out - it oozed a bit when I slashed, but not nearly as bad as previously!

Good looking loaf with some spring - the slashes didn't open much so I guess a bit overproofed (as usual)

Waiting for lunchtime to check the crumb!

Thanks Jim for the suggestion - I'll keep trying different permutations and post again

cheers
Sali

jcking's picture
jcking

Sali,

Your feedback will help others. So often posters don't report back and that doesn't help those who are having a problem and don't post. I read everything I can get my hands on and suggest that to others. Then again recipies are a starting point and some times, especially sourdough, tweaking is needed. If one likes to be a dective it helps.

Cheers,

Jim

Salilah's picture
Salilah

Fingers crossed - a photo!

The one at the front is the Tartine - the other two are my adaptation of Shiao-Ping's adaptation of Tartine (overproofed on the tea-towel and stuck, so I had to do a light knock-back at end of proofing which was a shame)

Here's the view from the top (sorry only half a loaf - my OH was hungry!)

Still - wouldn't be upset to keep producing these breads - no longer frisbees (too much!)

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

These loaves look great!

Was there any taste difference between Shiao-Ping's formula and the regular Tartine formula?  I would be curious to know.

Thanks for the photos of your success :-)

Janet

Salilah's picture
Salilah

Heya! and thank you!

The main difference I noticed was because of the flour - the Tartine has just over 10% wholewheat, and with this one I took it up to 20% WW

Other than that, quite similar as far as I could tell!  I would still like to get more of a sour taste, I really like the taste of the La Brea White Sourdough (that I get in Tesco), so need not only to keep getting a rise, but adding in more of a fermentation.  Shiao-Ping's version has longer ferment for some of the starter, whereas I think Tartine tends to try not to be too sour and uses the leaven young...

I just love trying these out - and reading my books to see what variations I could do later, once I get the basic loaf right! 

Sali

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thanks for your response.  It is interesting that hers is so close because her starter build is very different.  

So many things can change things.  I am finding that with using 100% ww I do better with Peter Reinhart's method of a biga and a soaker and a hydration level of 75%....but I keep trying different methods to see what happens in the end.

Janet

Salilah's picture
Salilah

<grin>  I'm not sure they were that close either - I'm sufficiently new to this that I can't really tell!

I agree with trying the different methods - I've 6 books now I think, and then a recipe from this forum and another recipe from a teacher in Cambridge, and I find that while I'd love to try them all, we can only realistically get through 2 loaves a week, and I can only easily bake at weekends, so I'm also tempted to just try to get one "right"!

I am keeping a diary with details of ingredients, timing, temperature etc - so fingers crossed that will help in the future.  I daren't get into the "interesting" added ingredients yet, as I think I could get too easily diverted!!

Sali

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

What helped me in the beginning - I started all of this about a year ago - was using Peter Reinhart's 'Whole Grain Breads' exclusively for a period of time until I got the hang of what was happening and was getting predictable results.  I was only using commercial yeast in the beginning and once I got it all 'down' started baking the same recipes with sourdough.  

The transition was easy as they were all recipes I was familiar with and he had the starter ingredients in the book too.

Once I got that going and had good results I branched out to recipes I found here which taught me new methods of working with doughs.  Having the foundation in PR's book though really helped out a lot.

I will attach the ingredients sheet I ended up making on which I record everything I do.  I like to hand write things rather than using computer generated spread sheets...Something about writing it all down by hand lets me understand it more thoroughly.  I then put the sheets in binders so my bread 'files' are well organized when I need to double check something.

You have already found this site so you are in a great place to be to learn just about all there is to know about baking just about anything..  If it can't be found here there are always links to other sites mentioned in threads......a great resource  when the only contact one has with other 'live' bakers in online.  :-)

Janet

 

 

Chuck's picture
Chuck

Although what I have to say won't help you solve your problem right now, it might help your emotional state: It took me a whole year  to really learn how to make freestanding loaves that didn't pancake. (Yes I'm a bit slow, but you get the idea:-)


So many things mattered-- measuring ingredients fairly carefully to get the exact right hydration level, developing the gluten just right, using the right flour, developing a "gluten sheath" (both stretch&fold technique and shaping technique matter a lot), very gently propping up the rise with with a few strategically placed rolled up kitchen towels, sometimes using a basket/banneton/brotform, and doing a few critical operations (like moving the loaf into the oven) very very quickly before the loaf has a chance to sag.

Salilah's picture
Salilah

Chuck - I appreciate your post - at least it is not just me!! 


I think I should try the original recipe again EXACTLY rather than with my minor adaptations - I weigh carefully but am not sure I am doing the rest correctly.  I use the basket, but might try without to see when the dough starts going horizontally (perhaps go earlier?)


The other thing I will try is cooking in a casserole dish (don't have a dutch oven) to see what happens - I had some early semi-success with soggy doughs when they cooked with surrounding walls!


I'll also try gradually reducing hydration and seeing what happens


(and if all else fails, I'll go back to Shiao-Ping's "guess" at a recipe for Tartine which has worked very well for me!)


thanks


Sali

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Sali,

I just happen to be working on txfarmer's rendition of the Tartine loaf using WW.  My first attempt turned into a frisbee - which is what I have named my 'low profile' loaves :-)  Neighbors still love them and my family likes them too.....nice to have smaller slices of bread and the flavor of fresh homemade is always better than store bought....

I did go out and buy a cast iron dutch oven and have found it helps a lot to keep my higher hydration doughs from completely ooozing all over the place.  Parchment paper keeps them from sticking to  the DO and clean up is great.  Your casserole dish should have the same effect in keeping dough more compact.  

I figure my DO is kind of like training wheels and maybe someday I will get the hang of wetter doughs and not need the added support.  

It was nice to read Chuck's experiences and that it took him over a year to get the hang of it - encouraging that he DID get the hang of it!!!

Until then, I tweek.  

Good Luck :-)

Janet

Salilah's picture
Salilah

Thanks Janet!

I was wondering re the Dutch Oven bit - luckily I've just managed to win an ebay Le Creuset casserole so I might give that a go (though probably from cold rather than hot, which might be different)

Good idea re the parchment, my previous (non-Tartine) no knead cold start bread was not bad but stuck really thoroughly!

I agree with you, I think it's worth trying though - my latest 2 Shiao-Ping versions were rested overnight on a tea-towel in the fridge - good fun except I didn't use enough flour on the tea-towel, which is now soaking in cold water (oops)

cheers
Sali

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Here is the tread I read that convinced me that cold would work just fine:

 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20746/hot-versus-cold-dutch-oven-baking-experiment

 

My first attempt years ago without parchment paper (had no clue what it was or that it even existed!)was a disaster like yours too. Bread rose well but it's bottom 1/3 remained glued to the bottom of the pan.

I find rice flour works great in my baskets to prevent sticking.  I use it when I use cloth/linen liners too.

Good Luck :-)

Janet