October 5, 2021 - 8:10am
Where to start for a starter?
Tried to fit a pun in the title and didn’t work out.
Anyways, I’ve been artisan baking for just about 2 years and I think it’s finally time I start experimenting with sourdough and natural leavens. I spent a few hours yesterday watching videos and reading articles about sourdough starters and how to create one. But there are so many conflicting ideas and so many different variations on starters and it’s hard for me to decide which one to go with.
TL;DR: i’m trying to start a sourdough starter and i don’t know where to begin.
If you have any tips or suggestions on where i should start my sourdough adventure or what in the world is a leaven, i would be super grateful.
Share
There are 2 posts on TFL, that I think are the most refered to when answering your question. I suggest bookmarking them in your TFL account (click "bookmark this" at the bottom of the post. That creates a bookMark on your TFL account page.).
Maybe bookmark them in your browser too.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter
and:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
I've done the latter (using orange juice) but not NMNF.
Bon appétit.
i'll be reading through those two posts this weekend. i did a quick scan through them both and i can already see some of my questions i had being answered. thank you !
I made my first sour culture in over 30 years earlier this year using the method described by Stanley Ginsberg in The Rye Baker. The method is for a 100% hydration rye starter.
I used equal weights organic whole rye flour and water. On subsequent days, half the culture was discarded and refreshed with equal weights of rye and water in a total amount equal to the discard. After initial volcanic behavior, the culture was quiet for a couple of days and then began rising again by the end of sixth or seventh day.
I am very pleased with this starter because I can store it for two weeks in the fridge without refreshment. When I need to use it, I follow his instructions to discard all but 10 g and refresh overnight with 70 g each of whole rye flour and water.
it's a relief to hear that i can tuck away the starter for 2 weeks in the fridge w/o a refreshment. some of the posts/articles i've read so far have detailed that you need to feed your starter once or twice a day, which i was kind of worried about.
good to know! i appreciate the helpful reply and i will check out the book you mentioned as well.
Key learning points for me
- use dark rye already mentioned, super powerful and creates a fluffier spongy starter for me, less liquidy
- use 1:1:1 ratio already mentioned (ratio is the key thing... you can choose something different, but follow your ratio to ensure you feed it enough)
- you do not need need a lot... you can build from very small amounts, even as small as 5g, to keep it manageable over time. 30g is managable too.
- you can store small amounts and just use it to build a large amount before a bake
discard does not mean throw away... use discard for flavour in other recipes like pancakes
once your starter is active, you do not need to feed daily... you can use your fridge to slow it down, then feed the day before a bake. I have zero discard with this approach and only make enough starter for a bake then put rest back in the fridge.
once a starter is active, if you starve it... it's still easy to rescue with a feeding. Just pour off alcohol and feed according to your ratio.
thank you so much for this. you unraveled a lot of questions i had about starters.
but i am still confused about what the process of actually baking the bread is.
let’s say i have 30g of starter and a recipe calls for 100g starter. how does “building” work? (in order to increase the sourdough starter amount from 30 to 100) and how much starter do i save for next time? sorry if my wording is off- you can tell how little i know about sourdough.
and one more question: how many feedings does it take to recover a starved starter? just one, as you implied?
If you have 30g starter and you need 100g for a bread
feed it 30 flour and 30 water and you get 90 total 2 days before
next day you have 90g starter and a couple options.
1. add 90 flour and 90 water and you have 270g starter. use 100g for the bread, and leave 170 jar to build the next one faster. Or discard some in pancakes or something.
or
2. use fractions. when you have 90g starter, take out 35 and put it in a parallel jar and add 35 water and 35 flour for your build. Leave 55 in the original jar for next time. Don't need it to be consistent.
To restore, one feeding in the ratio of current weight + same flour + same water will restore it fine. It might be a bit more sour tasting. If so, you can feed again next day and the flavour will calm down.
oh also if you are in a rush, you can feed a build of starter and put it someplace warm to speed it up.
I did this recently using an old plastic yogurt container (plastic doesnt slow down heat transfer) and putting it near a warm (not hot) kettle I'd used for coffee earlier.
okay here's what i gathered from your replies. please correct me if i am wrong.
so when you need the starter to bake, two days before, you feed it according to a 1:1:1 ratio. you do this 2 days before the bake if you need to build your starter, then build it once more to the correct amount. then whatever is left, you just can use it for next bake/ or use in a discard recipe. and a warmer environment will speed up the process. regarding the aforementioned point, how will i know when my starter is ready to use? once it's doubled in volume?
Sure, doubling is useful info.
Use a clear container and you can see the expanded bubble sponge texture if you use something like dark rye. It also has slits or little holes on the top of the starter where gas is coming out. If you stir it, it"s stringier. Some people wait for the starter to show signs of collapsing a bit at the top after it reached its peak.
Starter has power regardless of whether it is perfect. I'm no expert but these tips have worked for me for a couple years because it becomes a simple, low maintenance process with no waste.
Got it. I’ll be creating my starter this weekend, and watch for these things in the coming days.
I really, really appreciate you taking the time to explain these things to me!
Always a good idea to use organic flour especially for the rye in the initial mix and next two feeds. Keeping it warm will ensure the starter matures faster. When I tried Hamelman's method here was the starter just a few hours after the third feed (including the initial mix).
Day One. Initial Mix:
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F) for 24 hours. Medium rye flour can be used in place of whole rye but avoid using white rye flour.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Day Two. Two Feedings:
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F). Ideally, the 2 feedings should be 12 hours apart. The white flour should be an unbleached bread flour with 11-12% protein.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Days Three, Four and Five. Two Feedings:
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F). Ideally, the 2 feedings should be 12 hours apart. By day six the culture should have enough ripeness to be used for bread production. In order to continue developing strength and complexity it may be fed for 2 - 3 more days before using. In that case follow the same feeding schedule.
i really appreciate a concise schedule to follow! do i have to follow the measurements exactly, though? as in, would i be able to halve each measurement of the rye flour, water, etc, ?
Believe it or not I have already done so. You should have seen the original recipe. However you may reduce it further but keep everything in the same ratio.
Hamelman is famous. His recipes are very well liked. Once you have a starter up and running then you can try his Vermont Sourdough as an excellent first recipe.
Oh wow. I probably will reduce the measurements, keeping the ratio, as you said. And I have used some of Hamelman’s yeasted recipes in the past, so his Vermont sourdough is at the top of my list for recipes to make once I get my starter going.
Strongly recommend you use only bottled or purified water for your starter, to eliminate possibility of chlorine/chloramines and other contaminants detrimental to starter cultivation. Best wishes. Dave
i wouldn’t have known otherwise. thanks for letting me know!
.
I got my starter bubbling in coordination with 2 sites --
The Perfect Loaf - https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/
and
Tartine Bread Experiment - http://tartine-bread.blogspot.com/2013/02/9-days.html
In other words: rye flour, water & time.
I had to learn patience and ignore the idea of 7 days or 9 days or any preconceived period that would suddenly result in great tasting bread. It took maybe 3 weeks before my starter was strong enough to lift a halfway decent loaf. And it took a full six months for me to even begin to understand its ways. Now, a year on, I'm still learning. My biggest leap forward was getting a digital scale. When I started baking, I was converting everything to volume -- because I had this silly idea that I was never gonna be a guy who fetishized measuring. I'm still not that guy. But my starter (and the recipes I wanted to try) asked me to be. My starter became super happy -- and made much better bread -- the day I bought a digital scale.
Hope this helps.
Rob
Hi Rob, this was exactly what I was looking for. I would be pretty frustrated if when I begin my starter, by day 7ish, I don't have a perfect sourdough loaf-had you not shared your experience. I'm going to be super patient and optimistic going into this sourdough-venture. Thank you very much for the pointers.
And a digital scale is an absolute must have! :)
--as happycat said, you can build your starter in advance for formulas that call for larger loads. So, if I have 30 g of starter, instead of removing some (which is basically only to save space in the jar anyway), I'll add 45g rye flour and 45g water and let it ferment for a day. For sure, I have violated the good old 1:1:1, starter:flour:water ratio -- but I have found my starter is usually amenable and will digest it. Then I have 120 g of starter, 100 of which will be available to use the following day. This may be sacrilege, but it has worked for me.
--regarding refreshing a starter, I was recently away for four weeks and left my starter, thickened to about 85% hydration, in the fridge. When I got back, I put it back on the counter and started the normal stir, discard and feed process. It took 4 to 5 days for it to get back to its wonderful self.
--a leaven is what you use to make your bread rise. A levain is basically a bunch of flour that you pre-ferment with sourdough before mixing the final dough. Most recipes call for this (pain au levain, anyone?) but some don't. I've made a good Swedish-style limpa rye where you just mix all the ingredients plus the requisite amount of starter, let the whole mass ferment for maybe 12 hours on your counter, and then form it, proof it, and bake it the following morning. OTOH, I recently made a pain au levain that had a 3-stage, 24-hour build on the pre-ferment followed by a 12-24 hour proof in the fridge with the final dough. In general, among many other things, pre-fermentation gives a more subtle way to control the acidity -- and thus the flavor profile of the bread.
I'm still a trial & error baker. So my best advice is to read this site. There are lots of folks here with serious knowledge and their thoughts and photos and recipes are inspirational.
Thank you for the incredible info, Rob. In regards to your first point, I am very much so an improviser as well. Because I am just starting out, I’m a bit scared to diverge from what “you should do”. but, if not exactly following the 1:1:1 ratio works for you with some adjustments, then I think I will too, just for the ease of things.
And about your second point, you said after leaving your starter unattended for 4 weeks, it took 4-5 days to get back to normal. how were you able to tell when your starter was all revived? apologies if my use of terminology is off.
--I'd try to stay near the golden ratio until you begin to know how your starter operates. Every starter has a different personality, and that personality changes in different seasons and different environments.
--I know my starter's getting back to itself when it looks like this 8-12 hours after being fed.
BE3EBD17-53C7-4238-91A9-AC3658B8586E.jpeg
Got it!
Again, thank you so much for the help!
recipe: take juice from sauerkraut, raw, cloudy, unadulterated and smelling bright and juicy. Add flour to make a soft dough. Mark the level cover and leave plenty of head space. Temp above 75°F
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40407/making-sourdough-starter-sauerkraut-juice#comment-402458
I do not have sauerkraut but I will still read through the post!
thanks!
As you would have probably guessed by now the process can be confusing, at first, due to all the terminology with a lot of crossovers too. Often the meaning isn't very clear cut as all the different steps of a sourdough are preferments apart from the final dough. In fact if you keep some dough leftover as a starter for next time then even the final dough becomes a preferment (of sorts). Now i'm probably just confusing you further.
I suppose it all comes down as to how one uses their starter and how it makes it's way into the final dough. Bear with me...
What is the difference if you take 100g of your starter to leaven a dough or take a little starter and preferment 50g of the water and flour of the final dough to make a leaven. In this example the answer is - not much!
Let's try and put it another way...
Starter is always what's kept behind. Be it a jar of pre-fermented flour that's always kept separate, or leftover levain that becomes a starter for next time or a piece of dough that's saved from a previous batch of dough. One needs to keep the process going and for that to happen one must always reserve some fermented flour and water. This is your starter.
What's a leaven or a levain? It's the pre-fermented flour and water that goes into the final dough and what makes it rise. It's basically starter that isn't kept behind. It doesn't make it out of the final dough. So if you feed your starter and use 100g of it or you take a little starter and feed it 50g water + 50g flour from the final dough, aka a levain, it's basically the difference between a six and two threes.
However starters tend to be non specific. Simply being a way to continue the process. And levains are basically specific starters geared towards a recipe. Now depending on how much starter is used many won't be too fussed at making it specific that's why they'll just use some starter. When it comes to a higher percentage one would think about building a more specific starter and then it is referred to as a levain.
But as i've said earlier it depends a lot on how one uses their starter and since it's all fermented flour and water terminology tends to get confusing. But no matter how each person likes to refer to the whole process and steps they're all following the same process. Starter is used to inoculate the dough with yeast and bacteria be it using ones on-going starter or building some off-shoot starter (a levain) and some is always kept behind as starter for next time.
Keeping a starter and building levains allows one to keep the one non specific starter then using a little of that starter one can build many different types of preferment. So in this example one starter fits all. If you keep a little starter at any one time, give it a feed and use it in a final dough then you're basically doing two steps in one! It's both a starter and levain. Whatever you take off to go into the dough is the levain and whatever is left behind becomes starter for next time.
So starter in the very real sense is whatever keeps the whole process going and doesn't get baked. Levain in the real sense of the term is whatever goes into the dough to make it rise and gets baked.
Even after some reading about what a levain is, I still hadn’t truly understood what the heck it really means. But you’ve explained it so well, and I think i’ve got a much, much better grasp on the difference between a levain and starter. Safe to say, the stress of learning what this once-confusing term has dissipated. That doesn’t mean I’m done learning more about sourdough- I’ve still got miles more to go, but I really appreciate you sharing this piece of knowledge with me. And you’ve explained it in a way that is easy to understand!!
:)