February 14, 2019 - 10:48pm
All rye starter
Hi everyone,
I've recently started an all rye flour starter, I've been feeding on a schedule since 1.24.19 on the daily. I've noticed that it's rising to double in size every day very well but I don't see it deflate much at all. I do 100 gr starter, 100 gr dark rye and 100 gr water. After 2 hours I see action begin. After 8 hours, it's double and full of air. 12 hours later... almost the same size. I haven't baked with it or float tested it yet but I want to give it a try maybe next weekend. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.
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The rise and stiff dome that doesn't fall is typical of a rye starter. Under the dome it most often has fallen by the 8 hour mark but because of the stiff dome, it appears to be peaking. Poke it gently to see if it is hollow under the dome. The starter can indeed fall and rise a second time while maintaining the look of a peaked starter especially if the diameter of the container is roughly 3" or less and under 8 hours after feeding.
You can easily watch the rye starter rise and then ever so often poke gently into the top if you want to catch the starter early on peaking. Check around the 4 hr mark to see that the foamy rising starter is actually filling the space under the dome. I suggest feeding the starter when the starter starts to make large bubbles and fall underneath, smells pungent and aromatic reguardless of what the dome is doing. A 1:1:1 feed ratio is rather small for a hungry starter.
Depending on the temperatures, you might want to graduate to larger feeds to build yeast. Reduce the size of the starter and give it larger ratios of flour and water. Try 20g starter with 80 g each flour and water and see how long it takes to peak without creating a "false dome." (1:4:4)
Mini
Hello and thank you person I don't know,l
I'll it a poke tomorrow morning and check. It's inside a 4x4 mason jar, I usually feed it around 10 11 pm so staying up till 3 am may be difficult. Can I adjust in the next few days to a 4 5 hour earlier feeding and then check the rise? "Depending on the temperature" my house is usually around 75 degrees, I live in Los Angeles and relatively at sea level...so how does feeding relate to that? Thank you very much for your help Mini, hopefully you won't mind helping me with other questions? I appreciate it.
the starter needs a larger feeding. I'd go ahead and do that at your normal feeding time and then check for differences in the morning. If peaked and hollow underneath, feed again for the next 12 hour span using 1:4:4. Each time you repeat the feeding, the rise will speed up and shorten until it stabilizes and becomes predictable.
That's when you can take a break and make use of the refrigerator. Refrigerate after a feeding after it starts rising. That is, if the starter is three fingers high after mixing, wait until it is four fingers high before chilling. Then it can stay there for a few weeks before having to refresh it. You can remove about 20g of starter to build a levain after about 4 days standing in the refrigerator.
If you need to bake sooner than 4 days, remove some starter, let it sit at room temp for several hours and wait for it to ferment further before elaborating. Wait until it smells good and ripe and has a sour taste. It will not rise because it will no longer have the internal strength to do so.
Let's see what happens...I just added 100 gr water and 100 of flour approximately 12 hours later. I'll keep an eye out in the next few hours and hopefully there will be a difference. I took pictures of it a few weeks ago so I can compare and maybe post them. Thanks again for your time and help.
I hope the starter was reduced first before feeding.
Yes.
25 gr starter, 100 rye flour and 100 h2o.
So I've been on the 1/4/4 ratio 2ice a day and still more or less the same. Tonight I've switched from a wider mason jar...maybe the shape will make a difference. I also started another 50AP/50Wheat/100Water starter tonight, just to see a different type of bread/flavoring. Thank you very much, I appreciate your time.
If I use the starter daily and feed it twice a day, what would peak aim be? Say I feed it at 9AM and 9PM, do I feed it in a way which makes it peak after 12 hours, or can it peak after 8 hours and be left alone those 4 hours until next feeding? Maybe stir it a bit so it gets access to new food. If fed 1:3:3 it peaks around 7 hours in room temp and with 1:4:4 maybe closer to 9 hours.
will behave slightly different than a full rye starter. But I would say that there is still plenty of food for the starter after the first peak. Putting the starter on a 12 hour schedule, feeding after 3 to 4 hours after peak is perfectly fine for comfortable warm room temps. Going above 80°F requires more food with each feeding to avoid starving the starter, that's where chilling can be a great help.
You may notice that it can peak sooner during the day than at night. If the difference is great, feed less flour during the cooler period. If the temp really drops at night, feed once a day before the warming period and let the starter " coast" thru the night.
So it still looks more or less the same...
100 water, 100 rye flour and 25 starter every 12 hours or so. I can see it deflate a little but not much. I see your dome and how it's all fluffy and airy down under but it looks way too dense and heavy to float. What should I look for at this stage and forward on from here? Maybe a bit more water than flour? Thank you very much.
that should show a difference if the yeast numbers have increased.
Use it at peak in a recipe but don't rush to maintenance feed it until it is a little more fermented, after it has fallen and more acid has built up in the starter. It should taste sour. If it doesn't, wait until it does. Don't force it into 12 hours feeding schedule if the culture cannot peak in activity. It is important to let the yeast increase and bacteria increase to lower pH readings before feeding again.
Float test? Who said anything about floating it? Maybe it could float if it had a much lower hydration. :)
This is a new starter from 1.24.19, been feeding it every day since. I would like to start baking with it soon. Doesn't the float test make sure it's good to go? Is 100 percent hydration normal for all rye? Should I adjust anything? Again...than you for all your help.
see what it can handle.
I did try a float test once and it sunk, rather slowly but sunk. A rye starter sample after 8 hours is not to be visually trusted, at least in my experience. Use with other signs like aromas, taste and texture to make your decision. Enzymes are very active in rye and the gas trapping matrix formed has a short life span. The surface will pinhole and crack releasing the gasses that are forming. The starter no longer can trap gas (sink when float tested) but when combined with fresh dough or flour, it can still raise a loaf.
I like my maintenance starter at about 83% hydration. Less and stiff for a long sleep in the fridge. I use part of it to build a levain or a starter to be used in a loaf. Fermenting hydrations can vary. If a recipe calls for starter or levain at 100% hydration then the elaboration will be made to be 100%.
Tip: Take some of the ripe discard and dry for a backup starter. Spread the starter discard super thin on a parchment or plastic wrap covered baking sheet and let it air dry. Pull off when it is stiff enough and releases flipping it over to dry thoroughly. Break up and label, store in a cool dark place. Not only can it be used to restart a starter, the flakes can be ground into a flour and used to flavour a yeasted dough.
So I've been playing with the ratio in the past few days just as an experimental purposes...1/4/4 to 1/3/3 to 1/5/5 and it all looks the same as 1/1. I think I will be going back to 1/1 this week and try to bake something next weekend. I'll keep you updated. Do you have a recipe for a natural levaining bread for a first timer that I can use this rye starter with? Again...much appreciate your time and help. THANK YOU.
I just leave about 10 Gr starter bake to bake. It takes about 2 feedings to get up for the next bake. I like the 1:4:4 ratio (Starter:flour:water) too.
Thank you.
I tend to test my starters with the basic 123 recipe. It is very predictable and uses any amount of starter, easy to calculate and easy to remember. Lots of posts here and lots of info and variations. i don't recommend a 1:1:1 feeding for a rye starter unless the temp is 75°F or lower where it is kept. Try a Feed a 1:2:3. S:W:F
recipe... one part peaked starter, two parts water, three parts flour. 2% salt
Try AP or bread flour or a mix of the two. Here's how it works, weigh the starter you want to use, double that for the water (hold just a tiny bit back while mixing) and triple the starter amount to get the amount of flour. So:
150g starter. 300g water 450g flour.
To get flour weight take the amount of flour in the starter (half in a 1:3:3 starter) or 75g and add it to 450g to get 525g total flour. 2 % of 523 is 10.5 grams. (Make it simple use heavy table salt which is 5g per teaspoon and convert to two level teaspoons of salt.)
Combine ingredients to make a rough dough and let it sit covered for 30 minutes to hydrate. Then knead the dough, bulk rise with some folding once it has increased in volume by about a third. Or it definitely puffing up in a slightly warm place without any drafts. More detail can be found checking out 1 2 3 recipes. Basically not much can be seen the first few hours as the yeast is replicating.
I just like to observe the dough on a flat surface, cover with a glass bowl, keep it from drying out and learn from the dough as it puffs up. Fold to return dough to a reasonable shape to hold itself together and then let it expand again. The folds will be closer together as the dough ferments. The nice thing about folding and shaping (like it might be the final proof) is that when you think it is puffy enough to bake, and shy of being "double" in volume, you can simply bake it. Turn on the oven when you find you have to reshape the dough every 35-40 minutes.
It is simple enough to pinch off a small piece of dough and watch it expand in a tall small straight jar or glass to observe undisturbed dough expansion. Mark the original level, double and final finish line below double. Deflate gently when folding. It's a rough gauge but it can sometimes be helpful.
to devote to observation, let the dough start to puff up, an increase of about one third, fold, shape and place in the refrigerator for a Retarding. When ready, the loaf can be brought out the next day spread out to warm up (gently pat out with warm hands does wonders) and shape again. You can watch it or since it shaped so well, place it into a banneton or baking tin for a final rise. Retarding tends to slow down the yeast but saturate the dough with lots of tiny bubbles. All you have to do is shape, pop and big bubbles and let all those tiny bubbles get bigger. :)