March 3, 2016 - 6:45am
Got 3 starters going, not looking very good
So the recipe I used last time calls for 300g of starter. I basically used up all the starter I had. The loaf didn't rise as much as I would have liked, but tasted good.
These have been going a few days. I haven't been following the usual protocol of discarding 1/2 cup. I've just been adding a 1/2 cup white flour unbleached and some water.
This first one is from breadtopia and I've been following their instructions for the past 3 days. It's smelling good, but not bubbling at all.
This one is a 50/50 rye/white mix.
this one is a 75% white / 25% rye mix
I've been monitoring the temp and it's not getting below 72 really.
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No, spring water from grocery store
Sounds good. This stuff says natural spring water, but who knows. I think it was going better when my wife was tending to it, rather than me. She has a more compassionate nature as a nurse, where as myself, I'm like "grow you #$^$@!*%$"
Whether people know this or not, peoples mental demeanor or attitude has an affect on bacteria, yeast, plants, etc.... This is actually science, not hippy BS either. So I'm trying to be nicer to the stuff so it works out :)
I've figured out over time that there is a reason why the experts say to discard most of the starter before you feed it. That's because you need quite a bit more flour & water in proportion to the amount of existing starter, to keep it healthy. So if you have, say, 300 grams of starter by now and you're only feeding it 50 grams of flour and water, you're basically starving the little beasties. Check out Ken Forkish's videos on weighing and feeding your starter here. He leaves just a little scraping of starter in his bin before feeding it.
That was my thinking too. When my wife was tending to it, she was following the King Arthur recipe, taking out 1/2 cup of starter and saving it and adding 1 cup flour and 1/2 cup water.
I read somewhere that you should NEVER have more starter than feeding, by weight. Since I do a 100% hydration (I'm new too and it's easier), I simply match up 1/3 starter, 1/3 water and 1/3 flour. If I know I'm going to need 100g of starter to bake, I'll cut my starter (last feeding before dough mixing) to 50 g, then add 50 g each of flour and water. Then, when I'm ready to bake, I pull off the 100g to bake and leave 50 g to the mother (or whatever is left from transfering. So, if 35 g are left in the mother, I just add 35-35, mix it up and put in the fridge for next time. If I don't want to keep that much I just pull more out.
Oh, and I've found my starter likes The Beatles... give it a try :)
I'm a retard, I have no idea what you just wrote :)
Well one of my starters went nuts today and rose quite a bit. I took some on a spoon and it floated in the water.
I did the same as last time
460G flour
300G starter
10G salt
260ML water (think it was, have it written)
I mixed it in the kitchenaid for 10 min. Molded it and let it rise 2 hours. But once again, it's not really rising.
I have the dutch oven preheating.
Looks more like a frign pizza.
I guess I'll have to fluff it up before I throw it in.
This is probably too late but that boule doesn't look that bad. Just reshape it again to give it some strength. Flip it over, fold it like an envelope side to side and then top and bottom. Flip it over again and either spin it to tighten the skin or put your hands around the back, pull it towards you, give it a quarter turn and repeat.
:( Flat again. WTF?
What is the inside like? And how big is your Dutch oven?
7 QT Lodge. I have been using like 1/2 rye in the starters, transitioning over to white king arthur flower. This starter floated in the water, so I thought it was ready. I have another starter pictured above from breadtopia with no rye in it, but that one is slow as sh*t to do anything. I'll cut into in in a min and take a pic.
Okay, I have a few thoughts on this but remember that I am a newbie. I have been baking bread only a few months and I am struggling a bit to get the oven spring I want but my sourdough boules definitely have more spring than yours.
First, I think you need to use some kind of support when proofing. It could be a bowl or colander lined with non fuzzy cotton or linen or even parchment paper, dusted with half rice, half AP flour or a banneton.
Second, I think your DO is too big. The dough has too much room to sprawl out if it isn't thightly shaped. Which brings me to the suggestion about shaping above. If you shape more tightly, your dough will not sprawl as much.
Last but not least, was the dough ready to go into the oven according to the poke test?
Suggestion: make a smaller loaf. Shoot for 600 - 650 grams for the whole thing. A recipe that works nicely for me is:
1 part starter
2 parts water
3 parts flour
2% (of the weight of the flour only) salt
Looks like this for a nice sized loaf:
100g starter
200g water
300g flour
6g salt (300 X .02)
then, instead of letting it sit out after shaping, get a small bowl that is about twice the size of the dough ball and do your final rise in that so it can't flatten out.
Only take it out of the bowl when you are certain you're ready to bake. Treat it quickly but gently, turn it out onto parchment paper, lightly flour the top, score it and gently place it into the dutch oven. In the oven and leave it 20 min. Take the top of the dutch oven off an do 5-10 more until it is a dark golden brown.
I like the 1-2-3 method for ingredients because I can easily adjust the dough for more loaves just by multiplying. Good luck!!
Again, the taste with grass fed butter. G'damn sonn. But need to figure out this rise thing. I've read about hydration, but as mentioned, I don't seem to understand it.
I don't yet have a proving basket. Like an idiot, I ordered a rectangular one, and have a dutch oven. I have a round proving basket on order.
I think you are right with the amount. The recipe I am using calls for 460g flour, 300g starter and 260ml water.
I think it's time for a new recipe. I have your recipe too A bakEr.
This is the method I used, to the T.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be57uXRf5xo
Except I'm using a dutch oven. I let the last loaf after the mixer part, sit in the mixing bowl 1/2 hour, I shaped it (rectangular like an idiot) in the proving basket. Covered it and left it overnight. Then I had to reshape it to put it in the dutch oven. Preheated 500 deg 20 min. Sourdough cooked 500 deg F @ 30 min. Cover off at 475 deg F for 15 more minutes. The last loaf was a little more raised.
hydration is simply the relationship of the water and flour, by weight. Equal parts of flour and water make 100% hydration. If I use 50% of the water, by weight, than the flour, I have a 50% hydration (like, 50 g water and 100 g flour).
The more hydration you have, to a point, the more fluid the dough is and the easier it is for the starter to eat and produce gas, which causes rise and bubbles. The less hydrated the dough, the harder it is for the same thing to happen.
If the dough is OVER hydrated, it will just run all over the counter and cannot hold together. If it is extremely UNDER hydrated, it will just be a tight, dense, gluey ball that the yeast can't do anything with.
To figure the hydration of your dough in percentage, just ignore the starter (since it's probably close to equal parts water and flour we'll forget it in the calculation). A ml of water is equal to a gram, so you have 260 divided by 460 or about 56% hydration.
Since I use 200 water and 300 flour, I have 200 divided by 300 or about 67% hydration. That means I'm at 10% MORE hydration (more liquid) than you. I know that my dough could even be wetter and work just fine, so I'm guessing that you'll be happier with your working dough and your rise if you simply add more water to the mix. Try my 100-200-300 thoughts above and see the difference.
The only other thing I noticed about your process, as compared to mine, is that you are probably colder throughout the rise. That isn't a problem but could take much more time for the process to work.
I watched the video and noticed that his bread did not rise very much in the oven either. I think you are totally on the right track. The one thing that surprised me was how short his first rise was considering this uses sourdough.
By the way, he mentions using strong flour which is the equivalent of bread flour if you are in the USA. Where are you and what flour did you use?
I'm in USA, Massachusetts and I use King Arthur white unbleached flour. My wife mentioned she saw King Arthur bread flour. Perhaps I should use that instead.
I will try this next.
100g starter
200g water
300g flour
6g salt (300 X .02)
"then, instead of letting it sit out after shaping, get a small bowl that is about twice the size of the dough ball and do your final rise in that so it can't flatten out."
That part above I don't get. When you say final rise do you mean after I mix it in the blender, I let it sit in the blender bowl for a 1/2 hour, take it out, shape it and then put it in a bowl 2x the size of the dough? How long should I let it sit then? Last time was 12 hours, this time was 2 hours. Either time, the dough did not get bigger really, just flattened out. But the 12 hours produced a loaf that was a little taller, but not much.
Just reading over your post. Not sure I am understanding your proofing times. When you initially mix your recipe there is a bulk fermentation time. I have begun using the folding method during this part of the proofing. I usually fold it twice during the bulk fermentation time.During this phase the dough will usually double in size.I do this in a rising bucket. Depending on room temp etc this can take 3-4 hours. Than i do the bench rest, where i carefully preshape it (not final shaping) and let it rest for about 20 minutes than do the final shape and put in the basket. There I usually let it proof until it doubles again in size at room temp (or you can retard the proofing by putting in fridge for 12-16 hours for more flavor development.) It is ready to bake when you can touch with finger and it leaves an indentation. Usually about 1-2 hours. Than I bake it in a very hot, preheated oven either on a stone or in a dutch oven that has been preheated for at least an hour.
Usually, after you mix, there is a first rise called bulk fermentation. This can be done in the mixing bowl or another bowl. It needs to be covered. Then you do a preshape, a bench rest, then a final shape which you would put into the 2x sized bowl And cover that as well so it doesn't dry out.
The part I can't help you with are the times. Some bulk fermentation are short in warm weather and some are quite long in the fridge. The same thing applies to proofing or the last rise. Maybe netfan will give you his or her approximate times and the temperature of the area where the dough is fermented or / and proofed.
Ok, perhaps I should have waited. I tried this last recipe from A BakEr and I'm on this step
5. Now cover the bowl and bulk ferment at room temperature for 6 hours or until doubled.
Problem is that will be 1am and I'll be asleep. Is it ok to leave it till the am, which will be like 12 hours?
Bulk ferment it at room temperature for 2-3 hours, then put it in the fridge when you go to bed. In the morning shape it into a fairly tight ball and put it in your bowl or basket to proof (final rise) for a couple of hours. Then turn it out onto a peel or baking sheet, slash the top, slide it onto your hot stone (or into your hot oven on the baking sheet), and bake. Or pop it into your pre-heated dutch oven & bake as usual.
Thank you.
It's been in the basket for 1.5 hours and it's not rising and is still sticky. Have to leave at noon too, in 1.5 hours. Is it ok to leave it out for a few hours till I get back later in 4 hours or so? I should have left it in the fridge. No time today.
This is just ridiculous. No matter what recipe, I can't get the stuff to rise. This is probably one of the more difficult things I've ever done in my life. I had no idea making bread was this much of a ball buster. I followed the recipe you posted to a T. The only thing I'm doing is using the bread hook on the mixer for kneading for about 10 min and not doing that part by hand. 2 hours in and it's still sticky.
With the starter, it was very stringy and doubled in size. The only thing is, I used bread flour this time. The other thing with my starter is I never get that hooch liquid on top. A lot of the starter seems to dry into a crust on the top too. My house is about 72 most days.
This looks like it's ready right? It doubled since I fed it this morning.
Ok. Be home later to check it again.
Well it's a few hours later, stuck my finger in it, still sticky, same size, threw it in the trash.
The stuff pictured above grew to the top of the container in just a few hours and it floats in water. Wondering if I should try it again?
This is what I'm using to make the mix. In the starter is regular unbleached flour.
Let me guess, this is overproofed.
Forgot to score the damn thing prior to cooking. Scored it 10 min in. It's lopsided because my wife didn't dump the loaf out of the proving basket into the dutch oven but used hands and spatula. The amount of things to remember with this is staggering and probably one of the most difficult things I've ever done. I need to get that Flour Water Salt Yeast book and just stick to one recipe. This is the "simple" recipe provided by A BakEr however. Stick to this for now till we remember all the damn steps and get consistency.
This looks so much better than the first loaf! I'm glad this is finally coming together for you!
Yeah I'm stoked. When I get into something like this, I am frustrated till I can master and repeat the process over and over. The major difficulty with this is time. I think you have to make sure you are around to baby this stuff through the process. I was in and out for several hours yesterday and stressed out worrying about the dough, LOL. The taste is phenomenal. My dad came over and he had a piece and I said "I dare you to tell me you've ever tasted a better piece of bread." LOL
It's quite liberating to make something from scratch with minimal ingredients.
Thanks for the help by the way. Got another one all mixed up and proving in the bowl, waiting to go in the basket. I didn't think this one was going to do so well since it was so raised. I figured it was going to have endless big air pockets in it. But it looks great.
One thing I'm wondering is this. Since we are doing the first mixing with the kitchenaid with the bread hook, do we need to do hand kneading as well or no? We didn't on this one.
I would be happy with a loaf that looks like that! Congrats on the success and good for you for persevering!
Thanks, got another loaf in the oven
Success, again. Cooked this at 400F for 30 min, then 375 for 20 with the cover off the Dutch oven. Wife doesn't like it as dark and crunchy, so I figured I'd try a lower temp.
Wow, you're getting great results now! That looks lovely. I've never baked a lean loaf at a temperature that low. What was the internal temperature of the loaf when finished? Or how did it look inside? I just baked a white loaf this morning in the iron pots. I pre-heated the pots to 475, then turned the oven down to 450 as soon as the bread went in. 25 minutes covered, then 20 minutes with the lid off, and I really like the crust. No burst, though. :(
I'll take a picture of it in the am. Looked white on the inside. I haven't been taking internal temps. Uniform small bubbles. Outer crust not as thick and not as burned as in my previous pic. Now if I could just learn how to get the thing out of the proving basket and drop it in the center of the Dutch oven, I would be golden. I tipped the basket at an angle and the loaf hit the side of the oven and got all lopsided. I was trying my best not to touch the preheated oven at 500 degrees.
Like a fool, the other day I let the oven sit a while to cool after taking the bread out. and like an idiot I went to move it to the other side of the top of the stove and grabbed one of the handles with my left hand and forgot to put on a mit. YOWCH. I got burned pretty good, but no blistering luckily. Could have been worse. I'm one of those guys who really should not be in the kitchen, heh.
So in the first previous pic (darker loaf), it was 500 deg preheated oven for 1/2 hour. Put the loaf in, cook @ 500 for 1/2 hour. Then cook 20 min @ 475 with the lid off.
onto the counter that I have lightly floured. I then pick it up with the sides of my hands to provide more support and carefully drop it in the hot Dutch oven. So far, so good. I haven't burned myself, touch wood! I am very careful and really pay attention to what I am doing. No distractions allowed. I burned myself once before picking up a hot lid fresh from the oven and I really don't care to repeat that experience. By the way, the method above is by Ken Forkish which is where I learned it. I think that my loaves have a better chance of landing in the middle of the DO this way. Hope this helps.
Yes, I do it the same way as Danni3ll3. I had the same problem with trying to dump it out of the basket into the DO directly, and having it end up lopsided. Still turned out okay though. I use smaller pots too (2.5 litre) so you really have to get it in the middle! With the Forkish method you can almost fold the dough ball in half (as long as there is a bit of flour on it when you pick it up; makes it easier to lift and drop on target.
Ok, I'll try that on my next batch.
If you have three starters going, you are overthinking it. Mix 50/50 APF and water. Cover it and put it on toip of the fridge. Check the smell once a day. When it starts to smell like rotten garbage, replace 50% by weight with 50/50 APF/water. Let it sit for two days, or until it bubbles. Then add a tablespoon of the mix to 100 gm of 50/50 APF/water then don't mess with it until it doubles. Once it doubles start replacing half of it with 50/50 APF/water every time it doubles.
Waiting for your starter to double is FAR more important than feeding on a schedule. There are far too many variables to do this based on timing. You need to base your actions on the starter's behavior.