June 17, 2015 - 7:19am
Combining Dry Yeast with Rapid or Quick Rise Yeast in same recipe
Can you combine the two types of yeast in order to get a better rise? I'm working with a low carb recipe, so there are no sugars in the flour for the yeast to feed off of. I get a small rise, whether I use quick rise yeast or active dry yeast, and then it puts out and I only get about a half rise. So, I'm wondering if I used the two types, would I get the initiate rise from the rapid yeast and then get a second or longer rise from the active dry yeast?
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it will be easier to answer your question.
A basic point to consider, though: enzymes in the flour (some are naturally present in the flour and others can be added by the miller or the baker) break down starch from the flour into sugars that the yeast can digest. No sugar need be added to the dough by the baker for the yeast to thrive.
Since who-knows-how-many millions of loaves of bread are baked each day using only one type of yeast in each batch, the solution to your problem will more likely be addressed by a change in your process instead of by combining different varieties of yeast. So, let us know what you are doing now and we'll see what advice we can offer.
Paul
"No sugar need be added to the dough by the baker for the yeast to thrive. "
That's actually only true if the yeast load is sufficiently small - under 2% fresh. So, if he has, say, .5lb of flour and 1 tsp of dry yeast, the yeast will overwhelm the enzymes.
I have tried hundreds of different processes and continue to get very similar results. I have mixed, let rise, shaped buns, let rise again. I've also formed buns directly after mixing. I have tried many different forming techniques both ways and get the same results. I hardly ever get a second rise, which is why I believe the Yeast is putting out on me (no more food for it to eat).
Ingredients / quantities
Mixing and kneading method(s)
Ambient temperatures
Duration of bulk ferment
Shaping technique
Final fermentation duration and conditions
Baking time and temperature, oven type and setup, steam or no steam
All of the above have a bearing on the outcome. Give us the rundown on one of your recent bakes and that can serve as the starting point for a diagnosis.
Paul
Ingredients / quantities: Vital Wheat Gluten, Almond Meal, Resistant Wheat Starch, Oat Flour, Flax, Wheat Protein
Mixing and kneading method(s): Mix by hand, only do one cup of flour at a time. Have tried several kneading techniques from Youtube videos. Mostly use stretch, fold, turn, repeat. Stretch long ways, fold twice, turn, repeat.
Ambient temperatures: Room Temps 77-80
Duration of bulk ferment: ??
Shaping technique: Here are all the ones I've tried (all produce very similar results). Tuck the bottoms under, then roll in circular motion in cup of hand. Stretch dough, fold in corners (upside down), turn over and do circular motion again. Roll dough ball in hands, flatten with palm or round object with flat bottom. Form dough ball and pat it down into shape. Form dough ball and do nothing. All of these are techniques I found on YouTube.
Final fermentation duration and conditions: I've done immediate (with Instant Yeast), one hour, two hour, four hour, eyeballled until doubled in size. Temps are 77-80.
Baking time and temperature, oven type and setup, steam or no steam. No Steam, regular home over, 325 for 22-25 minutes. Bottom rack
The last several runs I have measured the water temps. 100-110 when proofing yeast. Last time I went hotter (110+) using instant rise in the dry mix.
There isn't much beyond the oat flour, except perhaps the resistant wheat starch, for them to feed on. Adding more yeast would exacerbate the problem. Note that I'm saying all of this without knowing the quantities of each ingredient.
I really can't guess how this dough behaves. The almond meal and oat flour would militate against the crumb having much capacity for trapping and holding gas. On the other hand, the wheat gluten and wheat protein would provide a matrix for forming gas bubbles. It all comes down to proportions and technique.
If you want to continue with the formula as is, my suggestion is that you mix, knead, and shape all in one pass, skipping the bulk ferment between kneading and shaping. Let the shaped loaves ferment until they expand to the size you want and then bake without a second fermentation. The crumb of the baked loaf may have a slightly coarser texture (which you can address with more kneading) but that way you get the expansion you want before the yeast runs out of food. I would also drop the water temperature for the dough into the 75-85F range. The yeast will grow quite happily in those temperatures, just at a slower rate.
Give that approach a spin with your next bake and let me know how it goes.
Paul
Thanks Paul. You bring up some very interesting points. Can you elaborate on these?
1. "The almond meal and oat flour would militate against the crumb having much capacity for trapping and holding gas. On the other hand, the wheat gluten and wheat protein would provide a matrix for forming gas bubbles. It all comes down to proportions and technique". I can play with the proportions of each, so what would suggest I do? Up the wheat gluten and the wheat protein while lowering the almond meal and oat flour?
2. "There isn't much beyond the oat flour, except perhaps the resistant wheat starch, for them to feed on. " Can you elaborate on what you mean?
With the very large caveat that I still don't know the formula, just the ingredients, I'll attempt some answers.
1. Depending on the ratios of the ingredients in your present formula, yes, increasing the proportion of gluten will offer the opportunity for the dough to trap gas more effectively during fermentation. However, there is a downside: you will have proportionately less starch in the dough to feed the yeast. Again, I don't know your formula, so I'm shooting in the dark with all of this. Remember that AP flour typically has 9-11% protein, not all of which is gluten. Bread flour protein content runs higher, usually somewhere in the 10.5-14% range. For those flours, most of the rest of flour is starch, since fiber content is almost nil. Since your objective is a low-carb bread, the ingredients seem to be skewed toward protein and fiber. It may be that the formula is already too carb-starved to facilitate good fermentation, which would make the addition of more protein (the gluten and the wheat protein) at the expense of the oat flour an addition to the problem instead of a cure.
2. The gluten, the wheat protein, and the almond meal are all protein-rich and low in carbohydrates. I'm not a microbiologist, so I don't know whether yeast can effectively metabolize those materials. I do know that yeast is very happy to metabolize sugars. In most home bread baking, we rely on the addition of the amylase enzyme in tiny quantities to facilitate the breakdown of the flour's starches into the sugars that the yeast needs. That's the reason for the malted barley flour you often see in a flour's list of ingredients; the malt (diastatic) is rich in amylase. The only free starch source that I see in your ingredients is the oat flour. I'm unacquainted with the resistant wheat starch, so don't know if it can be metabolized by the yeast. You could experiment with adding diastatic malt to your formula, at 0.1-0.2% of the oat flour weight as a starting point and see how that affects the yeast growth.
Do keep in mind that everything I'm saying is largely theoretical, since I've never baked a bread like this. I'm just trying to extrapolate the knowledge that I do have from more conventional baking.
Paul