The Fresh Loaf

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Hamelman's 70% 3-Stage Rye Sourdough

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hamelman's 70% 3-Stage Rye Sourdough

Inspired by the gorgeous rye breads hansjoakim has been showing us, I made Hamelman's 70% 3-Stage Rye Sourdough today.


I've made lots of light rye breads and enjoyed them, but I had not yet tackled a rye with over 50% rye flour. I had also never made a rye using the "Detmolder 3-Stage" method. It was time.


I'm glad this was not the first rye bread I attempted. My acquired comfort level with slack doughs and sticky rye dough helped immensely. Working this dough, which has so little gluten it never develops perceptibly, would have been discouraging and confusing without that experience. A 70% rye dough is a different critter from a 40% rye. The latter feels like a "normal" dough, except stickier. The former is like moulding clay. A light and  quick touch is needed to successfully handle the dough, especially in shaping. I was pleased that, using this approach, almost no dough stuck to my hands.


The 3-Stage Detmolder method was developed by German bread scientists to optimize flavor and, particularly, the balance of yeast, lactic acid-producers and acetic acid-producers in the dough. This requires some advance planning. I started the whole process 3 days ago by activating my rye sour with two feedings prior to starting the first "stage" of the Detmolder process. The 3 Detmolder stages are rye sour elaborations that differ in hydration, fermentation temperature and length of fermentation. The final dough adds to the rye sour some high-gluten flour (I used KAF Sir Lancelot.), more water, salt and, optionally, instant yeast. It has a very short fermentation of 10-20 minutes and proofs in bannetons until expanded somewhat less than 100%. I proofed for 1 hr, 15 minutes. In hindsight, I could have proofed for another 15 minutes. (My kitchen was around 79F.)


The dough is divided into rounds which are "docked" rather than scored. Docking involves poking multiple holes in the crust before baking. There are toothed rollers that professional bakers use. I used a "Susan from San Diego Special Mixing Implement," otherwise known as "a chopstick."


The 1.5 lb loaves were baked in a "falling oven temperature," starting out at 490F for 10 minutes to maximize oven spring, then at 410F for another 30 minutes. I left the loaves in the oven, with the oven off and the door ajar, for another 10 minutes to dry the crust.


Steaming should be intense but brief. I poured some hot water over lava rocks in a pre-heated cast iron skillet 3 minutes or so before loading then poured some more water on the rocks just after loading. The skillet was removed after 5 minutes, and I left the oven door open for a few seconds to let some of the steam out before continuing the bake.


Hamelman says to delay slicing for at least 24 hours. 



70% 3-Stage Rye Sourdough, with this afternoon's crop of cherry tomatoes.



70% Rye profile



70% Rye crumb


Slicing the bread, one gets the sense that this is a heavy bread. However, in the mouth it doesn't feel dense or heavy. The crumb is quite tender. The first flavor hit is earthy rye with a very mild sourness. (The sourness may well increase over the next few days.) The surprise is the long-lasting aftertaste which is decidedly sweet!


I think this bread is made to eat with a hearty stew. Too bad it's way too warm for that. Smoked meats or smoked fish are more appealing. How about some Cotswold cheese? I'm off to go fishing for some smoked salmon.


David


Submitted to Yeast Spotting on Susan FNP's marvelous Wild Yeast blog

Comments

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

Looks delicious, David! We wouldn't expect any less!


The bread looks pretty good too...  ; D


- Keith

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

paddyboomsticks's picture
paddyboomsticks

Ahhh David, I've been waiting for you try this one, I knew it was only a matter of time before your curiousity got the better of you! Can't wait to see the crumb!!


I've not tried the Detmolder, but don't be afraid of the other high percentage ryes in Bread, they are uniformly delicious. The - I think it's - 80% with a soaker is a good one too. :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I am a curious fellow. (Take that as you wish.)


As I said in the original post, this bread would have been much more daunting if it had been the first rye I'd ever made. It was easy enough to work with. I wouldn't hesitate to attempt even higher percentage ryes. I'll be looking for candidates in Hamelman. You recommend the 80% with soaker, eh?


David

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

That looks nothing short of perfect, David, well done!


Did you figure out how to deal with the temperature zones of the sourdough builds?


Looking forward to hear what you think of the taste!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The loaves are really quite handsome, I admit.


The temperature wasn't the problem I had anticipated. It's quite warm here, so room temperature was near 80F. For the warmer temperature needed, I heated a cup of water in the microwave, which got it up to 85F.


I'm eager to taste it too .... a few more hours.


David

LindyD's picture
LindyD

It's a wonderful looking rye, David. Congrats!


Any tips on maintaining the full sour at 85F for the three-four hour ripening time?


I'd love to try one of these three-stage ryes, but have no idea how to achieve the steady temps mentioned in the formulas. 


Not that it would be possible here this summer, since we're setting records for cold weather, but maybe in the winter months when the wood stove is perking...

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Except for the stage which is supposed to be fermented at 85F, the ambient temperature was in-range. For the 85F stage, I heated a cup of water in my microwave to less than boiling and then checked the temperature. It was 85-89F (I can't recall exactly.) I placed the covered bowl with the sour in the microwave and closed the door. 


4 hours later, it was nicely expanded and almost fluffy.


The temperature control issue is what had been holding me back from making a 3-Stage Detmolder rye. It turned out to be no biggy, as long as you have an environment in which you can generate a humid 85F. You could make a proofing box for this purpose, use your oven or the microwave, as I did.


You can do it!


David

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Looks like it's right out of Hamelman's color photos.


--Dan DiMuzio

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

proth5's picture
proth5

to the crumb shot. Nice bread!


thinking through my triticale problem (and equating it  to a high % rye bread) - did you experience any drop in volume and spreading when you took your bread out of the banneton?  Did you actually use instant yeast?  Was there any signifiant oven spring? 


Let me know.  I've done a couple Detmolder 80% rye tries and I've never been happy with them - although I can't really say they were inedible.  Now, I'm never really "happy" with anything I bake (like I say, gotta be me) but I'm trying to set a baseline for my expectations.


Thanks


Pat

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hamelman warns about loaf deflation if you fully proof this bread. I proofed to about 1.5 x original volume. When I turned the loaves onto the peel, there was no spreading. I got maybe 20% oven spring, which is darned good for a 70% rye, from what I understand.


Both rounds had some small blowouts just above the bottom. Since I think I shaped them very well, I assume they could have stood a smidge longer proofing.


I did use the instant yeast, as in the formula. Hamelman says you can make this without it, but my "production schedule" required the predictable proofing time added yeast provides.


David

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

sounds like you've done everything by the book to me.


i think the way you describe the dough more as clay than a stretchy wheat dough is spot on. the skin is very tender, and just the slightest stress form rips and tears in it. i've tried to observe what's going on with loaves like this during the first 15 mins. of the bake. with wheat based doughs, the skin looks very elastic, so, if properly formed, proofed and slashed, the loaf shouldn't tear or crack.


with rye doughs, i have the impression that, during baking, the crust is setting and firming up before the interior is finished expanding. this could be due to the fact that rye doughs are heavy and wet, and it will take a longer time for the heat to penetrate to the interior of the loaf. i wonder if baking the ryes at extremely high temperatures for the first couple of minutes, as mentioned in hamelman's book, will circumvent this "issue"? from what i've observed, an increased amount of steam can also prevent large cracks, as it helps keep the crust moist a bit longer, but, as hamelman also says at the beginning of chap. 6 in his book, an increased amount of steam is likely to produce a lower crumb profile. the easiest way to avoid large tears during baking, i think, is to give the dough a very gentle preshape and shape, and then proof as long as you dare...

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Blowouts can occur when the loaf is under-proofed, but they can also occur when you run out of steam before the oven kick ceases.  The loaf will begin to crust over then before growth has finished, and you get the rupture.


Rye is even more tricky than mostly wheat-based loaves in that you want maximum expansion, but then an almost immediate evacuation of the steam to help firm up the sides and crown as quickly as possible.  As I recall, Jeffrey definitely vented the steam from heavily-rye based loaves earlier than for wheat based, possibly out of concern that the crust must form before the weak dough structure might start to fall.  I'd say David got pretty close as it is.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Dan.


My read of Hamelman on steam when baking High-percentage rye is that, compared to wheat breads, you want more steam for a shorter time.


He prescribes pre-steaming the oven before loading, then steaming after loading. He says to vent the oven after 5 minutes. I tried to replicate this with my home steaming method, as described in the original post.


FWIW, George Greenstein, whose Jewish Sour Rye was the first rye I made, also recommended steam for 5 minutes only.


I've had some ryes with massive blowouts. With the Jewish Sour Rye, the key to avoiding this was adequate proofing. With full proofing, I got less oven spring but a much lighter, airier crumb.


The blowouts on the 70% rye were relatively small, so I think I was "pretty close," as you said.


David

proth5's picture
proth5

(nice crumb and profile!)


I think that with my triticale, overproofing was certainly a contributing issue. Ididn't actually get spreading (because being a compulsive sort, I just went tna measured my finished bread against the banneton) - but did get deflation.  I also got better oven spring than I had thought - but over proofing seems to be part of the issue.


I also think that my banneton is too large (or my dough batch too small) and this is contributing to the flat profile and I see that clearly now. I was kinda thinking this, but I am now convinced.


I also think I need to re-set my expectations for my poor triticale (and my rye) - or else I'll just end up feeding the tribbles...


Thanks again!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Now available in the original post.


David

Nomadcruiser53's picture
Nomadcruiser53

That's an impressive loaf. I'm thinking a very sharp knife is needed. As for the salmon I have never been able to land the ever elusive "smoked" salmon. Dave

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks, Dave!


You are certainly correct regarding the sharp knife. This bread tends to tear.


And about the smoked salmon: They are, indeed, very sly. They hide behind the Alaskan Snow Crab Legs in the fish case. Because they are so well-camouflaged, one can only find them by patiently waiting, every so quietly ... until they cough. The smoke gets to them eventually. Then they're yours!


Catching pickled herring is way easier. It's great with rye bread, too.


David

paddyboomsticks's picture
paddyboomsticks

I love that sweet aftertaste you get in the high percentage ryes - the soaker recipe I mentioned has exactly that, and the crumb is virutally identical to the rye you've just made in my opinion.


 


I love Bread, it's my favourite baking book by far. I always feel that Hamelman only adds a step if it _must_ be done, as opposed to some of the Reinhart recipes which I feel are often needlessly complicated for marginal flavour gain. I will say though that I find proofing times in Bread to be consistently lower than what my home kitchen requires (except in the height of summer). However this could be any number of things ranging from the local sourdough here in Sydney, to the humidity, the quantities involved, etc. etc.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for your message. I am happy to know the remarkable aftertaste is characteristic of these breads. Having never made one until now, it was startling!  Like a surprise gift.


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to enter the 70% rye level!   A true and worthy loaf!  Wow!  Impressive spring!


I so enjoy the smell of baking rye!  See you found some flour without me.   My little apartment is bursting with aroma at this moment.  Once hooked...   ...hey try just cool butter and a carpet of chives while waiting for the fishies to cough. 


Congratulations! 


Mini

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had some of the rye for breakfast with sweet butter and smoked salmon. Very good. 


I haven't yet identified a best source for more rye flour. These loaves pretty much depleted my stock of whole rye. KAF is there, but their prices for pumpernickel and medium rye are high. I may call Giusto's in South San Francisco and see if they sell directly at their headquarters. 


As expected, I got feedback on my smoked salmon fishing from my ever-helpful siblings. Brother Glenn offered his own story of hunting duck confit. Sister Ruth advised that Bay Gulls are of great help in finding smoked salmon.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Beautiful loaf, David! The crumb looks about perfect too. I bet it tastes fantastic.


I looked for ryes at my local WFs yesterday: nothing in bulk, but they did have Bob's Red Mill pumpernickel and light rye on the shelf.


I called Guisto's a while back to see if they would sell to me directly and the answer was an emphatic, "No." After some prodding, I did get them to give me a number of their local distributors who do sell to the public as long as you met the minimum order ($150), and bought in bulk (I think it was 25 pounds). There were quite a few distributors in the greater SF bay area too.


So on the docking: do the holes go all the way through or just down to a certain depth, and how did you make them (I know a chopstick, but did you whirl it around or just puncture the dough--I'm wondering why the holes didn't close up too?


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

It sounds like ordering from KAF or BRM is my best bet. I wouldn't mind buying 25# of AP or BF, but I'm reluctant to keep that much flour with a limited shelf life at room temperature.


Re. docking: I just stuck the chopstick in about 1.5 inches. No twirling (of the chopstick, the loaf or the baker). The holes did not close up, obviously. This is a pretty firm dough.


The other bread I've docked is Greenstein's Jewish Corn Bread. That one is a very wet dough. The holes do tend to close. In fact, Greenstein says to dock the loaves again after a few minutes' baking, presumably for that reason.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Thanks for the docking info, David. What an interesting bread! You definitely mastered it. I bet it keeps for a week. I can almost taste the salmon, cream cheese, and rye.


--Pamela

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Hi Pamela,


I've been buying Giusto's for years. They sell to distributors who then sell to stores. If your natural foods store works with a distributor that handles Giusto's then it's not a problem, although sometimes their entire line is not available to a particular distributor.  For instance I cannot get Old Mill, their high extraction flour in WA, but I can get it in CA.  However I can get Bakers Choice and Ultimate Performer in WA.  


If you want Giusto's, give a call to your local natural foods store and ask if they can get it.  That's always worked for me.


:-Paul

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Good idea, Pablo. My impression when I spoke with Guisto's was that they sell to a lot of distributors--too many to even give me a comprehensive list. I hadn't thought of going to a natural food store and asking if they buy from Guisto's. So that may be helpful for getting some of their items.


--Pamela

Pablo's picture
Pablo

It's not that the natural food store buys from Giusto's, (I'm always clueless on the spelling, I just checked the bag) it's that their distributor handles Giusto's.  I have purchased it through Country Sun in Palo Alto.  Here's a description of their products, by the way:


http://www.worldpantry.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/giustos/manufactflour.d2w/report#flourspecialty


:-Paul

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Thanks for posting the link to Guisto's products. I wonder if going through essentially two middle men raises the price significantly.


--Pamela

Pablo's picture
Pablo

I wonder too, Pamela.  I've just started to pay attention to flour prices lately.  At first I was so jazzed and so completely taken over with the bread thing that I just went to the local natural foods store and paid the price for 2K off the shelf.  Then I got them to order larger bags, then I remembered Giusto's and started buying that in Washington (I live in Canada).  The price is roughly half if I drive down to the states to pick up flour from what it is to buy through my local natural foods store, so it seems like a bargain to me.  Giusto's is not available in Canada but an equivalent organic white bread flour. 


I managed to infect my brother in law with the bread lust and he buys his flour, KA AP, in Maryland at Walmart for avery good price, around .50/lb.  I haven't noticed yet if it's available here in my supermarket.  And then there's taste... I can't say that any particular flour has knocked my socks off.  The closest I think was Bob's at my brother's house in Crescent City, but I was baking on the road and who knows, some combination of feeling free on vacation and baking in a strange kitchen with whatever I could find, but it lives on in my memory as a terrific loaf of bread.  sigh.


But back to your comment.  I think that's just how things are in the grocery business.  I think Safeway, et. al. buy from distributors.  I suppose the best you could do would be to go directly to a small mill.


:-Paul

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

David, This loaf is suited for a magazine post..beautiful!


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

Yippee's picture
Yippee

David:


Your bread is beautiful. Just like your bagutte post, this will provide a good guideline for people who are interested in baking rye bread.  I tried your SJSD and made another loaf of rye bread, the dough was not easy to handle. Thanks for sharing this helpful information with us. 


Yippee

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm glad you find my posts helpful.


David

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Hi David,


It was great to read your post and see your bread and realize that you're just approaching these high percentage ryes.  I keep eyeing them myself but I'm afraid to take the plunge yet. 


I get a natural foods store in WA to order Giusto's for me.  I just picked up some rye and while I was there they had a 25# bag of Giusto's pumpernickel that had a tear.  They gave it to me, free for nothing.  So I'm stocked with flour, now I just need the confidence.


:-Paul

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Pablo.


Hey! I have confidence in you. If you want to do it, just do it!


Do the best you can. Figure out where you messed up. Fix it. Do it better next time.


You did it with baguettes. You can do it with rye. But you do have to want to make beautiful and delicious rye breads badly enough to move through the almost inevitable frustrations. 


The rye up there was made with the benefit of two-years or so of struggling with much easier rye breads and any number of weird results along the way. .


Remember how good those breakthroughs feel.


Go for it!


David

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

David you're a funny man! I have no problem seeing you twirl! LOL


Also, a very accomplished baker. You never cease to amaze me with your posts.


Betty

xaipete's picture
xaipete

His posts never ceases to amaze me either, Betty. When I first saw this bread, I thought the holes might be for birthday candles. Well, I was wrong, but I wouldn't mind having this bread instead of a cake for my birthday.


--Pamela

NanusT's picture
NanusT

Does the order of the buliding stages can be replaced?


doing the 2 shorter stges first and then the long one over night?


and if it is possible how should I do it?


I want to do it so i can bake the bread in the morning and not in the evening.


Thanks alot


Tal

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

But I don't have the answers.


Why don't you try it and let us all know how it works for you?


David

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Tal,


I didn't consult Hamelman's formula before making this comment, but I think the sour-building procedure you're referring to is the 3-stage "Detmolder" process.


This strategy for getting the ideal balance of wild yeast activity, acetic acid development, and lactic acid development in a "rye sour" starter was developed in Germany.  The baking techs who developed it used very specific ranges of temperature and hydration, which would be changed at three different times to bring out the three different characterictics they were looking for.


Jeffrey Hamelman gives the best short summary of the process I've ever read in English on page 200 of his book.  If you don't own it, you might be able to get it at the library -- I have seen it at my local branch.  It seems like the temperatures and hydration levels aren't all that flexible for purposes of re-creating the same process.  Still, you mentioned timing as the critical factor for your baking, and Jeffrey gives quite a range (15 to 24 hrs, I think) for fermentation of the 2nd stage.  I'm going to assume that the longer end of that fermentation in the 2nd stage produces more acetic acid, so what interval you choose there probably affects the sharpness in flavor.


--Dan DiMuzio


 

NanusT's picture
NanusT

I do own the book and read all the chapter, but the thing is that the final stage is 4 hours so i cant leave it over the night neither i can do it in the morning because it will be ready in the noon.


any other suggestions?


Thanks allot


Tal

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

No, really.  This rye bread needs about a day or so to develop the proper firmness and flavor, so if you finish it at bedtime and wait until evening the next day to eat it, it will actually be better for the bread.


When Jeffrey makes high-percentage rye in his bakery at King Arthur's in Norwich, he waits about a day to sell those loaves on purpose -- he's not doing it for convenience sake.


--Dan DiMuzio