Sifting ergonomics
Hello all,
The more I use fresh flour the more I like it's flavor. It's a whole different world to me, it tastes almost unbelievable. With that said, I can only utilize so much whole wheat without reducing structural integrity.
I wanted to know how everyone here sifts their fresh flours into bread/pastry flour. Currently I use a coarse sieve into a bowl, then hit the result with a fine sieve over a large baking pan. I then use a flat wooden utensil to scrape it back into a bowl. It works but it's a bit of a hassle. I think the next product I'd like to see is an electric home sieve, or even an old school giant one but more efficient with its use of space... Still suitable for a home basically but hand powered.
I would love to be reliant completely on my own milled flour but with how long it takes me to sift one bread's worth of fine flour it's simply not possible.
Today I made tortillas with roughly 66% worth of whole wheat and 33% worth of fresh, sifted flour. Amazing.
Cheers.
I remember being wowed when Dan posted this sifting video a while back:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62237/bolting-sifting-comparison-1-pass-vs-5-passes
I've been making homemade 100% whole wheat tortillas the last six weeks or so, nearly every week, but with atta flour from an Indian brand (Sharbatti type), which is delicious, but I think you've just inspired me to give home milled a try next when this bag runs out. The recipe calls for scalding the flour, which I think results in a slightly sweet final product. My family actually prefers them to store bought now and they are dead easy to make.
I'm curious what you are using to cook the tortillas? I've been using a grilling stone on my outdoor grill but now that the temps are falling where I live, the idea of standing out there for 30 mins (the time it takes to cook off about 12 large tortillas) in freezing temps is not too exciting.
I'm willing to derail this thread for the sake of tortillas because although there are so many styles of bread I love, I could eat tortilla after tortilla plain if they are good. I've been making tortillas since I started cooking, I've almost never used store bought. I mostly make quesadillas that I fry in a pan after the tortillas are done. I also make corn tortillas from field corn I nixtamalize, and occasionally burritos.
With fresh flour I notice you have to up the hydration quite a bit (as usual) but in this case the rolled product is noticeably crusty on the outside if you don't, which means it never seems to form a perfect circle unless you fold the edges back on itself for a tidy up. With fresh flour, I have been performing Tangzhong for almost every recipe but today it skipped my mind, I totally would've for these tortillas but honestly, they turned out pretty well.
I also don't flour the work surface anymore. I just use oil and if needed a bench scrape to encourage it.
For cooking my tortillas I use a cast iron griddle, or a mica clay comal I purchased from the potter that owns Hand To Mountain. I prefer to cook in clay when I can, followed by cast iron, followed by stainless steel.
I too have been considering a gigantic comal for cooking 2 - 3 at a time but they are hard to find these days. You can see traditional Mexicans cooking half a dozen or more tortillas on their gigantic ones, or Africans cooking injera on gigantic wood fired ovens (that's my next goal).
For my tortillas today I used whole hard white berries, and I sifted hard red berries. I'm growing amaranth (Mexico's traditional grain) in the backyard... I wonder if I can make that into tortillas.
Regarding the massage shaker, it's definitely an interesting idea, I will have to give it a try. If I could design a "set it and forget it" type of setup over a large 5 gallon bucket that'd be very awesome as I am trying to start a small bakery as well.
Thanks for the comprehensive info on this! I'd love to see you post something specifically for all things tortilla (recipes, steps, photos, etc). I'll have to further explore some of the other cooking surfaces as far as what might work best for stove top. The ceramic grilling stone I use outside on the grill ended up having some serious hot spots when I tried using it on the indoor gas stove, even with the burners set on low. I've been considering a cast iron griddle and might just have to take the plunge.
I have not jumped into making any corn ones yet. I'm impressed you are doing your own nixtamalization.
Best of luck with the bakery...sounds like an exciting adventure!
I was just going to suggest a massager but of course it's already been done. Cool.
I should do it myself... I have the same issue althouh sprouting, drying, milling and sifting is an even longer process ;)
haven't gotten into sprouting yet... once step at a time I suppose, I will at some point!
I'd like to avoid electricity for this in the long run, so setting up some type of pedal system attached to a 5 gallon bucket, with an interchangeable locking system to use various sieves would be great... Like the Grain Maker attachment. All I need is each pedal to pull left/right respectively.
in this thread for your reference. I have no comments on any of the gadgets shown in the pictures, as I haven't used them yet.
Yippee
Kooky, seeTHIS LINK for a massage powered sifter. But unless you are milling a very large amount of flour the following is simple, fast and efficient. Get a #30 and a #50 mesh sifter. Stack the 30 on top of the 50, then put both of them on a container that fits the sieves. Milling your berries too many times can cause starch damage. You want to avoid that because the dough will be weakened and with too much starch damage it will turn to slop. With this in mind, for the initial mill pass the stones are set 3 clicks opened from touching. With the 30 stacked on top of the 50 shake and sift the flour. NOTE - it seems that capturing the large bits first, make sifting through the 50 easier. The flour that passes through the 50 (“fines”) is not milled again. Next take the flour and bits that were captured in the 30 & 50 mesh and re-mill them one more time. This time set the stones to just touching and mill a second and last time. Repeat the 30 over 50 sifting.
The purpose of the above procedure is to protect the flour from excessive starch damage.
These sifters work well and fit a 5 gallon bucket when used with a massager.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BP3NRZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BP3D50S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It was duringTHIS POST that I learned a lot about sifting. Scroll through it for info and images.
Hope some of this helps,
Danny
Thanks, I will get to reading.. It's hard to even consider adding store bought flour back to my diet but to get the quality, in both texture and aesthetics that I want, I kind of have to. Being able to turn my fresh flour into something that resembles store bought flour is ideal though, because I can just add gluten flour, and I become totally reliant on my bulk source.
I finished my first loaf with gluten flour last night, overproofed it by far... I can no longer rely on "rise volume" during first rise. Even if it 1.5x in size, or less sometimes, it might be overproofing already. I usually use 1/4 of the yeast a recipe calls for if I'm using fresh flour, and from now on I will simply follow the advised times. Even with gluten flour, if it's 100% whole wheat, the dough can't trap the gas well until shaping, so the rise is minimal.
I think it's far better to cut 1st rise short and let it puff up during 2nd rise with some added tension.
When you mention “gluten flour” are to referring to Vital Wheat Gluten?
If you are milling hard wheat, additional gluten is most probably not necessary. I see from your profile that you are in the US. Your wheat berries should contain plenty gluten, no extra needed.
Are you wanting to bake 100% whole wheat bread? I assume you are using commercial yeast and not a sourdough starter. Is this correct?
Danny
Kooky, the very best instructions for baking great whole wheat bread is inTHIS BOOK. Read, re-read, and following precisely the procedures described in the chapter, “A Loaf for Learning”. I know of no better source for a basic whole wheat bread. In the chapter you will read that she highly recommends extensive kneading to develop the gluten. It is the secret for success.
HERE is a nice link for 100% Whole Wheat that may interest you.
Barry is a long time contributor to the forum. He bakes 100% whole wheat exclusively.
Yes, gluten flour.. I simply haven't been getting the spring I've been looking for. The size I've learned is because WW will be denser, to counter that, use a larger weight of flour.
Regarding the spring and not getting flat loaves. I think I am overproofing by following volume of rise, I need to rely on time. Using 1/4 the amount of yeast a recipe calls for I can probably shape commercially yeasted dough at 45 minutes, even if I use room temperature water in the recipe. By the time my dough hits 1.25 or 1.5x the size during first rise, it's nearly overproofed (relative to first rise), it will still rise no problem for second rise, but when it hits the volume I need it's definitely overproofed by the time I stick it in the oven.
Thanks for the links, more reading to do later tonight...
I must say, I followed The Perfect Loaf's freshly milled pan loaf recipe and it came out perfectly using sourdough. Structurally sound, excellent shape, wonderful rise... It hit all the right spots. I haven't been able to have that success yet using commercial yeast, but I think I overproof... I will be baking a loaf again in a few days based on what I learned from my previous.