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idaveindy's picture

Had a late start, and ran low on starter. Should have added some instant dry yeast to speed things up.

Goal: 1200 gram (weight before baking) boule.

12:37 pm. Mix 50 g chunks of Prairie Gold (HWSW) retentate from #20 sieve, 357 g home-milled PG, 93 g home-milled hard red winter wheat from Whole Foods, 86 g home-milled Kamut, (586 g total flour/chunks), 3/16ths tablet of 500 mg tablet of vitamin C, 469 g bottled spring water.

[ 1 hour 52 minutes autolyze. ]

2:45 pm.  Mix in 80 g starter (wanted to do 88 g, but ran low), 10 g water, with stretch and folds. Starter at 100% hydration, all Kroger AP flour.

4:00 pm. Added in 20 g water, and 12 g salt, with dimpling and stretch and folds.

Total flour: 586 + 40 = 626.  % ww: 586/626 = 93.6%.  %prefermented flour = 40/626 = 6.4%

% hydration: ( 469 + 40 in starter + 10 + 20 ) / 626 = 539 / 626 = 86.1%

Total dough weight, not counting oats = 539 + 626 + 12 = 1177 grams. 

4:42 pm. Stretch and fold.

5:22 pm. Stretch and fold.

[ 4 hours 15 minutes bulk, in warmed oven, maybe 75 F. ] 

7:00 pm.  Fold and shape. Sprinkled top with oat flakes (old fashioned oats), put in lined and floured banneton, 8" inner diameter at rim.

7:35 pm. Started to preheat oven, with Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker inside, uncovered, *495/475 F.

[ 1 hour 30 minutes proof. ]

Using pot part of combo cooker, 8" inner dia at base, oiled, sprinkled with corn meal, then a circular cut layer of baking parchment, then more corn meal.

8:30 pm, Bake, 495/475 F, covered, 5 min.

8:35 pm. Bake, 475/455 F, covered, 5 min.

8:40 pm. Bake  445/425 F, covered, 20 min.

9:00 pm. Bake, 410/390 F, uncovered, 15 min.

9:15 pm, internal temp 209.0 F.  Bake, 410/390 F, uncovered, 5 min.

9:20 pm, internal temp 209.3 F.  Bake, 410/390 F, uncovered, 5 min.

9:25 pm, internal temp 209.5 F.  Call it done.

* First number is the oven thermostat setting, second number is actual temp according to thermometer.

Cut open next morning.  Crumb not as open as previous bake.  Could have used longer autolyze/soak, and longer ferment.  Taste improved in evening.


idaveindy's picture

Jan 21, 2020.  17th TFL bake.  Best so far.

Goal:  1200 g boule (fits in 1 gallon storage zipper bag), 90% home-milled flour, 10% AP flour, try more autolyse, reduce amount of Kamut, increase autolyse/soak, short ferment (not overnight).

9:15 am: Mix 354 g Prairie Gold HWSW, 91 g Kamut, 91 g HRWW, all home-milled, 429 g bottled spring water, 1/8 tablet of a 500 mg vitamin C tablet (approx 62.5 mg).

 429 / ( 354 + 91 + 91 ) =  429 / 536 = 80% hydration.

~~ [1 hour, 55 minute autolyse/soak.]

11:10 am: Mix in: 40 g water, 50 gr King Arthur AP flour, 97 g of 125% hydration cold starter (last fed yesterday).

97 g of 125% starter = 44 g flour + 53 g water.   Assume 13 g of flour in starter is AP flour.

PPF:  44 / (536 + 50 + 44) = 44 / 630 = 7.0 %.  High enough for a same day bulk ferment and proof.  7% is high for a mostly whole-grain dough that has been autolysed for a while.

Percent white flour ( 50 + 13 in starter ) / 630 = 10% white flour.  ~~ 90% home-milled whole grain.

PPM Vitamin C: 62.5 mg / 630 g = 99.2 parts per million.  

11:45 am: Slowly mix in 20 g water, and 12.0 g Himalayan salt, via stretch and folds.  Dough becomes very stiff due to salt, but it will slacken.

Total hydration so far:  ( 429 + 40 + 53 in starter + 20 with the salt) / ( 536 + 50 + 44 ) = 542 / 630 = 86%. 

11:50 am: finish adding salt and water. 

12:19 pm: Stretch and fold.

12:54 pm: Stretch and fold.

1:54 pm: Stretch and fold.

2:55 pm: Stretch and fold.

~~[5 hrs, 7 min bulk ferment.] 

4:17 pm: Letter fold and shape on an AP flour-dusted surface.  Did a better job of stretching skin of boule than before, dragging boule across the surface to develop tension. Dusted 8.7" O.D. linen-lined banneton with tapioca flour and brown rice flour. Slightly wetted top of boule with water and spread soaked chunks of bran that had been sifted (#20 mesh) from milling process. Shouldn't have soaked the bran chunks. Flipped into banneton so the seam side was up, and dusted the now upper side (seam side) of boule. 

Immediately did finger poke test, and it seemed it was ready to bake!  So, it had too long of a bulk ferment, and therefore I used too much starter.

Immediately started preheat of oven to *495/475 F  and also Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker.

(Had to adjust bake timings a bit due to doing laundry, not wanting to let laundry occupy community dryers too long.)

Oiled and lightly dusted with corn meal, the deep pot part of the cooker. Sprinkled corn meal on seam side of boule and covered boule with a circle of parchment paper. Inverted pot over banneton and flipped them over.  Scored the boule in a double X, or 8 legged asterisk, all cuts converging in the center top.

~~[1 hour, 3 min final proof.]  

5:20 pm: Bake, covered, *495/475 F, 5 min.

5:25 pm: Bake, covered, 475/455 F, 5 min.

5:30 pm: Bake, covered, 430/410 F, 20 min.

Success!  Oven spring!  All legs of the 8-point asterisk scoring opened well. No "ears" because it was a vertical cut.

5:50 pm: Bake, uncovered, 400/380 F, 11 min. 

It didn't look like it was browning fast enough so raised temp.

6:01 pm: Bake, uncovered  410/390 F, 10 min.

It didn't look like it was browning fast enough so raised temp again.

6:11 pm: Bake, uncovered, 420/400 F, 6 min.

6:17 pm: Done. Internal temp 209.7 F.

* First number is the oven's thermostat setting, second number is actual. 

~~ Total bake: 57 minutes.

Very light crumb. BEST BAKE SO FAR.  And my friend who likes white bread even liked it.  Looked so good I cut it open after cooling two hours. Normally have to wait 20 hours to improve flavor.

Forgot to take photos of crumb. Will post other photos when I get a new computer.

idaveindy's picture


Oval banneton, 10x6x4, with liner:

Oval banneton, 11", with liner:

Round banneton, 11.8", with liner:

Round banneton, 12", Brick Oven Baker:

Oval, high, 10", Brick Oven Baker:


80+ types of flour at General Mills:

Of note to bread and pizza bakers:

See right side for form to locate a distributor based on zip code.


To get more tang, and lactic vs acetic:


addendum, other references

King Arthur professional flour, mostly 50 lb bags:

Explanation of various types of rye flour, and dark vs whole:

Volume to weight conversion chart:

Caputo (mill in Naples, Italy): link broken.

Moul Bie:

US distributor of Caputo/All Trumps / mail order/ repacks:
Brick Oven Baker's explanation of Caputo Flours:   Out of business.

Central Milling (Utah):

Keith Giusto Bakery Supply, KGBS, Petaluma CA, part of Central Milling:

Explanation of W, PL, ash%, extraction, Italian/French/German/US specification systems:

Bakerpedia, baking encyclopedia:
Ingredients, Processes, Terms, Resources/recipes.

Bread Bakers' Guild of America, formatting formulas:

Comparison of KitchenAid Mixers:

Hemp hearts vs hemp seeds.


KitchenAid manuals, dough/flour limits:

"NEVER use recipes calling for more than 9 cups of all-purpose flour or 6 cups of whole wheat flour when making dough with a 5-quart tilt-head mixer"

For a "bowl lift" model, example:

It says: "NEVER use recipes calling for more than 1.68 kg (12 cups) all-purpose flour or 840 g (6 cups) whole wheat flour when making dough with a 4.8 L (5-qrt) Stand Mixer."


Panman's How to clean and season cast iron:

Guide to GF binders:

How butter, sugar, eggs hydrate flour:

Importance of shaping to build surface tension:

Starter to Levain to dough, flow chart:

Soaker ingredient hydration percents:

Freezing pizza dough:

Debra Wink,  pesky thiol compounds:

Summary of what TFL is:


Australian flour and malt.  Web site specifically for Australian bakers:

Based on this web page, some Australian bread recipes do require diastatic malt:

The malt is in step 5 where the water is added.

These two pages talk about Diastatic malt powder:

An australian recipe that calls for a pinch of diastatic malt, and some stoneground (presumably whole grain) flour which adds some bran and its attendant enzymes.



Favorite tortilla: or  - don't use all the water. Or

Detroit Pizza, J Kenzi Lopez-Alt:

Cast iron Pan Pizza:

Cast iron Pan Pizza, Ragusea:
Also see Binging with Babish channel.

Make your own GF mix:

Great G/F web site:

Swedish "Polar bread" on a griddle:

Naan with yeast:



Whole wheat sandwich bread:

Mark Bittman's pizza dough:

Egg pasta, Helen Rennie:

How to make baking powder. 1 part baking soda, 2 parts cream of tartar, 1 part corn starch.

How to make cultured buttermilk:

Citric acid to pH calculations:

How to make rice paper

Trailrunner's Trinity: 9% of _dough_ weight: 3% evoo, 3% honey, 3% yogurt/buttermilk.  This replaces equal weight of water. IE, for 1000g dough, take out 90 g water, and add 30g evoo, 30g honey, 30g yogurt.


Recipe web sites: - Maurizio Leo. - Stanley Ginsberg. - Lutz Geissler. In German. - der Brotdoc, Björn Hollensteiner. In German. - "Rusbrot." In Russian. 


Cookbook errata:

Cresci, by Massari:

Bread, 1st edition only, by Hamelman:

Crumb, by Bertinet:

Inside the Jewish Bakery, by Ginsberg & Berg:

Southern Ground, by Jennifer Lapidus:

The Pizza Bible, Gemignani. Errata for early printings:



TFL users:



The Roadside Pie King (Will F.):



_JC_ :

Other baking video channels:

Steve Gamelin, no-knead but with yeast, not sourdough. His extremely simple method got me out of the bread machine, and into artisan/no-knead bread. A big round of applause for him. If you want K.I.S.S., this is it:

The Bread Code:

Rus Brot (in Russian):

Bake with Jack:

Full Proof Baking, Kristen Dennis:

Joshua Weissman:

Jeff Hertzberg & Zoe François of Bread in 5 minutes/day fame:

Shaping, gluten cloak:

Jeff's own channel:

Peter Reinhart on the TenSpeedPress channel:

Ken Forkish (FWSY and Elements of Pizza):

King Arthur Flour (Jeff Hamelman & Martin Philip): Most excellent!



How to shape dough:
More on shaping, why:

Foodgeek web site:

Trevor J. Wilson:

Trevor's website:  breadwerx . com

Stanley Ginsberg:

Sourdough Journey:

Northwest Sourdough, with Teresa Greenway:

or by playlist:

Teresa's commercial video courses:

Teresa's website:

Proof Bread:

Bread by Joy Ride coffee:

Elly's Everyday Whole Grain Sourdough channel:


Food storage:

idaveindy's picture

It was a cold blustery day, and I felt like some comfort food.  

Daniel Leader's book "Simply Great Breads" has a formula for yeast-raised fry bread.  

Years ago, I learned a simple way to make fry bread, without any leavening agent, just plain AP flour, salt, water, and powdered milk.  As the moisture steams/boils off, it sufficiently aerates the dough.  But I had forgotten the exact recipe.  Lightly dust with sugar while the oil is still wet on the fried bun.

"Fry bread" is not taking a piece of bread and frying it.  That would be toast. 

"Fry bread" is taking a piece of dough, usually in the form of a disc, and deep frying it, or pan-frying in a sufficient layer of oil/fat to approximate deep frying.

Using baking powder, yeast, or sourdough starter, makes an even fluffier piece of fry bread.

The trick is to not use too much leavening agent, and don't let it rise too long if using yeast/sourdough.  Too much will create a too big pocket of air.

I used mostly home-milled whole-grain flour.  It still worked well, as I let the dough sit a while to fully hydrate.

375 F seems to be a good temp.  I don't have a controlled temperature fryer.  I just used a wok and a thermometer. Setting 4 on the electric burner's control dial seems to maintain 375 F. But adding the room temp dough drops the oil's temp quickly, so I was almost constantly fiddling with the dial, usually starting by getting the oil up to 400/425 F right before putting the dough in the oil.

I made enough dough for four pieces, intending to eat two and save two for later.  I ended up eating all four.  Such is the danger of comfort food.

My hood fan over the stove merely filters the air, it does not vent to the outside.  So the oil frying smell lingered for a day or so.


I have one of those circular  "turbo convection ovens", which is the predecessor of the "air fryer."  It's a big glass bowl with the fan and heating element built into the lid.  I might try that to make fry bread.

idaveindy's picture

Jan 2, 2020.

Close to #14.  625 g total flour,  87.8 % total hydration.  Mostly HWSW, a little Kamut, a little quinoa flour, a tablespoon of BRM GF flour. A little molasses in the soaker.  Used 1/4 vit C tablet, 125 mg ,  and 2 tsp vital wheat gluten in soaker too.  Added 2 tsp dried malt extract when added levain.   Got good oven spring.  Nice light springy crumb, but not too open.


idaveindy's picture

For handy reference. Courtesy of Duckduckgo.

Celsius Fahrenheit

  • 180   356
  • 185   365
  • 190   374
  • 195   383
  • 200   392
  • 205   401
  • 210   410
  • 215   419
  • 220   428
  • 225   437
  • 230   446
  • 235   455
  • 240   464
  • 245   473
  • 250   482
  • 255   491
  • 260   500

C x 1.8 + 32 = F


idaveindy's picture

12/29/2019.  Goal:  1200 g boule, all WW except for what's in starter.  Overnight bulk ferment in cold (71 F falling to 67 F) kitchen.

9:00 pm. Mix: 500 g home-milled Prairie Gold hard white spring wheat, 100 g home-milled Kamut, 11.7 g salt, 56 g levain of 125% hydration ( 25 g flour, 31 g water), 472 g bottled spring water.

11.7 / 625 = 1.87% salt.

25 / 625 = 4.0% prefermented flour.

9:19 pm. Mix in 26 g additional water, 2 heaping tsp of ground  chia seed, 1 tsp caraway seed. (I'm guessing  add-ins are 3 gr.)

529 / 625 = 84.6% hydration.  Total weight:  1168.7 g.

Leave in bowl. cover with plastic wrap.  Two series of stretch and folds. 


6:30 am. Fold/shape put in floured lined banneton.  Slowly pre-heat oven.

Put in deep part of 3.2 qt Lodge cast iron combo cooker.  Bottom of pot lightly oiled with refined coconut oil, sprinkled with corn meal.  Dust top (seam side) of boule with corn meal and cover with round piece of parchment paper.  Invert pot over banneton, flip both over.  Removed banneton and scored with a circular cut all around the edge, plus X on top.

7:56 am.  Bake covered, 495/475 F, 5 min.

8:01 am. Covered, 475/455  F, 10 min.

8:11 am. Covered, 430/410 F, 20 min.

8:31 am. Uncover,  bake at 400/380, 35 min.

9:06 am. Internal temp: 209.1 F.

Turned off oven, place pot and loaf back in for 5 minutes.

9:12 am. Internal temp 208.8.  Remove, start cool.

Some oven spring, acceptable.  Probably over fermented a bit.  4% was too much innoculation for an overnight bulk ferment outside the fridge.

Good crumb.  Chia darkened the color.  Caraway taste goes well with whole wheat.


idaveindy's picture

I just wanted a convenient searchable reference for this figure.  How much sodium per gram of salt?

393.4 mg of sodium in 1 g (gram) salt.

according to

That figure is for _pure_ sodium chloride.  Additives, such as anti-caking ingredients, will alter it slightly.  "Sea salt" and various "gourmet" salts may also include minerals, and may have included moisture, both of which would render a lower portion of sodium (and chloride).  393.4 would then be a maximum figure.

idaveindy's picture

Goals: 1200 g dough, 90% hydration, 1.9% salt.  Use last 266 g of home-milled Prairie Gold, and use equal amount, 266 g, of home-milled Kamut, and rest King Arthur All Purpose. Soak the 532 g (266+266) of home-milled flour for an hour with 88 % hydration, because it is coarse-milled. Use 100 g of starter, 125% hydration, with Cultures For Health San-Fran Sourdourgh culture (not the Whole Wheat/desem culture).  Fed it two days ago, hoping to bake then, but it sat in fridge.  Looks active, so I'll chance using it without feeding. Heck, mixing it in the dough is feeding the starter, so worst case, let it bulk ferment longer.  Use 1/8 to 1/10 th of a tablet of 500 mg vitamin C.

1200 g / 1.92 = 625 total flour.  625 flour - 45 flour in starter = 580 g.  580 -  532 in soaker = 48 g KA All Purpose.

45 g flour in starter / 625 total flour = 7.2% prefermented flour, PPF.

532 flour in soaker * .88 = 468 g water in soaker.

625 * .90 = 562 g total water.  562 water - 55 water in starter = 507 g.  507 - 468 in soaker = 39 g water to add in final mix.

12:15 pm: Mix 266 g home-milled coarse Prairie Gold HWSW, 266 g home-milled coarse Kamut, 11.8 g Himalayan salt, 468 g bottled spring water, 1/10 tablet (tried for 1/8, but it came out uneven) Vitamin C which was disolved in the water,

1 hour soak of home-milled coarse-milled grains.

1:15 pm: Mix in 101 g starter, 40 g water, 48 g King Arthur All Purpose flour, with the soaker.  

1:48 pm: stretch and fold.

2:22 pm: stretch and fold.

2:53 pm: stretch and fold.

3:24 pm: stretch and fold.

4:45 pm: Total Bulk ferment: 3.5 hours. Shape and put in 8.5" outer diameter, 8" inner diameter, lined and dusted banneton.  Did not do a final fold.  Dusted with brown rice flour and KA AP.

5:40 pm: started oven pre-heat, 500 F.

6:30 pm: Total final proof: 1 hour, 45 minutes.  Used deep part of Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker. Lightly oiled the bottom of pot, sprinkled corn meal in it.  Sprinkled corn meal on top (seam side)  of dough, and put a round parchment paper over it. Inverted pot over banneton, and flipped them over to load dough. Scored a square around perimeter, and an X on top.

6:30 pm: Bake covered, at 495/475* F, 5 min.

6:35 pm: Bake covered, at 475/455 F, 10 min.

6:45 pm: Bake covered, at 430/410 F, 15 min.

7:00 pm: Uncover, bake at 400/380 F, 41 min.

7:41 pm: Internal temp:  210.2 F. done.

Looks good! Nice oven spring along all score lines, both around perimeter, and the X on top.

Let cool 2 hours, then put in zipper seal bag.


*First number is oven setting, second is actual, according to a cheapy oven thermometer.

idaveindy's picture

Dec. 18, 2019.

Goal:  25% KA AP loaf, 75% home-milled whole wheat.  Intending for largest loaf to fit in the deep part of the Lodge 3.2qt combo cooker.  Was off by 145 g, should have been 1200 g, instead of 1345 g.  88% hydration for the soaker with the home milled flour.  Approx 87% final hydration. 1.9% salt.  Using a new starter from CFH, SF  Sourdough, not the Carl's 1847, or the "Whole Wheat/desem" that I had used prior to that.

1:43 pm:  Mixed 100 g home-milled Kamut, 400 g home-milled Prairie Gold (hard white spring wheat), 440 g water.

(37 min soaking time.)

2:20 pm: Folded/kneaded in 101 g starter (only 9 days since hydrating and growing some purchased culture, CFH Sourdough culture, so it's very young), at 125% hydration, which adds 45 g flour and 56 g water.  Starter is approximately 25% KA AP, 75% Prairie Gold.

2:24 pm: folded/kneaded in 166 g King Arthur all purpose flour, and 105 g water.  711 g flour in total. 601 g water so far.  84.5% hydration so far.

2:54 pm: stretch and fold.

3:36 pm:  Folded/kneaded in 13.5 g himalayan salt, and 20 gr water. 621 g total water. 87.3% final hydration.

4:09 pm: stretch and fold.

(2.5 hours bulk ferment - 2:22 to 4:52. Ended up being too short.)

4:52 pm: folded, put in banneton.

(1 hour, 43 minutes proof- 4:52 to 6:35. Also too short, but wanted to bake that night.)

6:35 pm: baked covered in Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker, in the deep part, 495/475 F, 5 minutes.  Note:  1200 g whole of wheat is the limit for the deep part of combo. Should have baked this 1345 g boule in the wider lid/skillet, or limited to 1200 g for a better fit.

6:40 pm: baked covered, 475/455 F, 10 minutes.

6:50 pm: baked covered, 440/420 F, 15 minutes.

7:05 pm: baked uncovered, 400/380 F, 45 minutes.  Some oven spring. Acceptable (not "good")  opening of center X, barely opened on perimeter square score.

7:50 pm: Internal temp: 210.4 F. Done.

Crumb was definitely underproofed.  I shouldn't have rushed things.  This was my first obvious under-proofing, so now at least I know what is  too low. The new starter was probably not mature and stable enough too.  Another few days will help.

I want a more sour loaf than I have been getting, and have been over-proofing in the past. So I will continue to use a lower percent prefermented flour, and go with longer/overnight bulk ferment and proof.

I know things change as a starter matures, but so far, I do like the taste of this bread better with the new CFH starter.


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