The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pizza dough kneading.

Pizzafreak's picture
Pizzafreak

Pizza dough kneading.

For my pizza dough, I usually use 00 flour with 13-14% gluten. Knead with 58-60%   Hydration. Sometimes the dough temperature at the end of kneading goes to 30deg C. How does this affect the pizza crust? Also how do I know that I’ve not over kneaded the dough just by looking t it? Please help!!🙏🏻

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

1. Your dough temp. will effect the ferment time. So if because of the change in temperature you under or over ferment your dough, yes that will effect the final product. 

2. This one is a little trickier, you do not want to build up all the gluten up front, the dough should be shinny and a little sticky. However it should not be so sticky that you cannot shape it into a tight dough ball.

Benito's picture
Benito

What are the negative effects of building too much gluten up front Will, I did not know this.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

This is something I learned a few internet blocks away over at the pizza club. Truth be told many times I will just follow a procedure without question. Now, my friend, you made me think about it. I have two thoughts on the subject as follows. 1. Very much like the new school bread baking procedures, (No knead and stretch and fold) we are allowing time and extended fermentation to do the work of vigorous arm building kneading. That being said, leaving the dough underdeveloped out of the mixer will allow for a longer flavor building fermentation time. 2. Pizza dough is a different animal than "bread" dough. It is important to remember pizza was born from the baker man's waste/ over fermented dough. Leaving the dough slightly underdeveloped on the front side adds a margin of error to a dough that needs to be close to over fermented in order to achieve the right mix of the extend-ability and elasticity needed to stretch a pizza skin too a thin yet strong base for our toppings. There is one other explanation that comes to mind, which is 3. I have no idea what I am talking about and making crap up as I go along!

Pizzafreak's picture
Pizzafreak

Tnks!leaving the dough underdeveloped seems to be.a good idea!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I just mixed a couple of 62.5% hydration dough balls by hand. The ingredients were lightly mixed until there was no dry flour, about 2-3 minutes. Then rested 15 minutes and lightly kneaded about 2 minutes. Did that 2 more times and the dough became silky and smooth. The extended fermentation will take care of the rest of the gluten development.

Easy - Peasy...

Danny

Pizzafreak's picture
Pizzafreak

Tnks roadside.... 

if it just affects the ferment time then I can have it in my control.. I thought it will fetch the consistency of the crust. Whew!! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hi Roma, the biggest reason, IMO, for not over kneading any dough (bread or pizza) is loss of flavor. Generally, over kneading is possible only if using a mixer. Mixing by hand is very difficult to over knead.

Another possibility, might be a dough that was too elastic to draw out, due to high protein, over developed gluten, and short fermentation time.

I like thin crust pizza. In my experience there is a balancing act between extensibility and elasticity. A dough that is too strong (elasticity) is difficult, if not impossible to draw out. On the other hand if the dough is too stretchy (extensibility) will spread uncontrollably and develop holes in the skin.

Roma, it may interest you to know that we are planning a Community Bake featuring pizza scheduled to start in the next few days. The online event is a great way to share your experience and at the same time learn from others. Bakers of all experience levels, including first time novices participate and everyone learns. See this LINK and let us know if you are interested.

If you are not familiar with our Community Bakes, you can check out a few links below to get an idea of how they work.

The following are links to Community Bakes

Danny

 

Pizzafreak's picture
Pizzafreak

Tnks so much Danayo! Really pizza making is a very tricky thing! The R-n-D seems infinite! 

How much protein content is best for crispy crust base? Is a small amount of superfine semolina useful to get the result of crispy base?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m no authority on pizza, but in my experience high protein flour makes for a chewy dough. In my limited experience, my best pies have been a 50/50 mix of KA BF and KA AP. But recently, I’ve been playing with Caputo 00 Pizzeria and Caputo 00 Americana flours. The jury is still out!

I have high hopes of learning a great deal during the upcoming Community Bake featuring Pizza.

Danny

Pizzafreak's picture
Pizzafreak

Tnks! What’s BF flour? KAmhas the best flours of course. I’ve been using capstone 00 but another company.. it’s good . 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Sorry, KABF is short for King Arthur Bread Flour and KAAP is KA All Purpose Flour. If this is not available other flours will work well also. Since I prefer a less chewy crust, my doughs have leaned lately to bread flours without excessive gluten. But the perfect crust is subjective to each person. Pizza preference seems to vary even more than bread.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

AP gives a less chewy crust than bread flour.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yes, Abe. But my thinking for using some Bread Flour is that the dough need some elasticity in order to draw the crust out. Also, most pizza dough ferments a minimum of 24 hours and some times up to 72. As you know, the long ferments makes any dough more extensible. 

But keep all of the above in mind that I am a novice at pizza. 

Hope you join the pizza CB. Your input is always valuable...

I am doing a lot of research in an attempt to publish the CB next weekend, and expecting things to go full bore the weekend after.

Danny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I'm even more novice than you Dan so i'm going down the route of simple is best. After all pizza is supposed to be simple with the dough being the main feature and the toppings merely condiments.

Tomato, cheese and basil. The Italian flag (red, white and green). The dough will be durum flour I think. Plus, durum flour and olive oil are a match made in heaven.

P.s. Spelt has a lot of extensibility and little elasticity. Have you thought about using Spelt for it's properties?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Abe, since the fermentation of really good pizza dough ferments for 24-72 hr, the doughs are extremely extensible. I have used spelt (so does the PieKing) but only is small amounts (5%).

I have a hankering to toss the dough, like the old Italian pros. But so far mine have been way too extensible to throw. I fear tossing the dough would expand to a 30” circle. High gluten would be better (I think), but I prefer a less tough bite.

Guess what? In an attempt to learn to toss the dough, I found an old chamois and cut it into a 12” circle. I wet it and then practice my tossing. It is a lot of fun... My wife thinks I’m nuts.

Danny

albacore's picture
albacore

I would say that tossing is for the showmen. As far as I can tell, current Neapolitan thinking is to gently press out the dough using the balls of your fingers, not the pointy tips, and leaving the edges intact to form the crust. But only spread to 80% size.

Then put the toppings on and transfer to the peel. Then you quickly tug the edges out for the other 20%. The weight of the toppings ensure that the centre stays put.

Another option is the slap to spread the pie, but the over knuckle stretch is a no-no as it can make the centre too thin.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lance, I must confess, I’d love to be a pizza showman LOL

albacore's picture
albacore

Spin them pies then, Dan!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lance, I have seen the pie stretch out, then topped and placed on the peel. After this the pie is stretched to full size.

I fear that last stretch would tear the skin. What has your experience been with the final stretch?

Danny.

albacore's picture
albacore

I've done it once so far and it worked fine. The topping should stop the middle moving, where the dough is thinnest.

Here's an example, look at 5:00 onwards for spreading.

And here is the slap method.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I just found this video. https://youtu.be/tOgd4Bm4Y5U

It describes various flours used for pizza dough.