The Fresh Loaf

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Anyone interested in a Champlain SD bake?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Anyone interested in a Champlain SD bake?

For sure Kat, (aka, “not.a.crumb.left”) and I will be baking Trevor’s Champlain SD. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/

We last baked this bread here. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55123/overproofing-underproofing-sourdough-or-just-bad-shapingwhat-does-it-look.

Since most bakers are separated by many miles and even different countries, this “community bake” may be the second best way to share information and learn together along the way. The idea, for those who want to participate is that we document our progress with pictures and post. It is suggested that each participant start a reply to document their progress. As more information and images are available you can edit that post and append it. We’ll share our success, and just as informative, our failures. During the process we can ask questions, compare results, or offer suggestions. Both pro and novice have a place here. 

We plan to start our bake today. Following Trevor’s video. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/ , we’ll begin with an overnight premix (autolyse with salt). And get our starters fed and active for the next day’s final mix.

I hope others choose to join in. The more the merrier. Even if you don’t come aboard now you can still post your results at any time in the future. All threads are constantly monitored for recent activity. Be sure, someone will be available to assist you.

Dan 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/   - Champlain Sourdough

Like many of you I came across Trevor Jay Wilson's videos, blog and recent book, which was a total eye opener and this loaf seemed to be a good 'beginner' type of Sourdough with 70% hydration. I tried other recipes before from other amazing people such as Chad Robertson's Tartine book, Vanessa Kimbell's sourdough school web site in UK, Maurizio's amazing 'The Perfect Loaf' blog (I am sure there are many more I should mention but those are the recipes that I came across first in my 'teach myself' approach to sourdough, but after a number of attempts, I had to admit to myself -  I am just not ready for that high percentage hydration dough!!! I had some amazing results with the 'no knead' and cold bulk fermentation method but wanted to learn some of the 'hands skills' and also how I can manage fermentation better and learn about 'how to read and understand' the texture of the doughs that I am handling. So - when I came across Trevor's 70% Hydration Champlain Sourdough and his no nonsense approach to teaching in his book 'Open Crumb Mastery' and posts on IG - that was it! 

Dan had a good idea last time and kept all the photos and comments in sequence of bake in one comment by editing his existing comment (whereas newbie me, sent replies and comments all over the place which must have been very confusing...sorry everyone. I try to be more organised this time).

So - Start - Pre-mix  WITH SALT (which I managed to forget the first time and this causes the dough to degrade during this long Autolyse over night).

  • 18:40  UK Time - Autolyse or rather Pre-mix as with Salt (see note from Dan below on this)Dough in Fridge and will take it out tonight before bedtime  for dough to adjust to room temperature (my kitchen has at night a temp. 64F ish and this seemed to have worked well on previous bakes).
  • 19:30 Build Leaven ready for bake in morning

I normally have a rye starter called 'Herbert' and created for this SD a new mixed 50%/ 50%  white bread flour /rye flour mixed starter (need to think of a name yet) which is more liquid than my quite stiff Rye starter. My starters are now more or less on a regular 12 hours cycle and as I don't bake that much I often arrange my bakes that I use most of my starter and then refresh to avoid waste.

There is a great link in our first bake of Champlain loaf which refers to a long discussion on starters started by Dan and since then I whisk my starter like crazy with water until bubbly and airy and then add flour and again mix that vigroursly to include air.  I am sure it is a contributing factor for it's tripling. 

Good morning - did not have many good omens for this bake as heating broke in the night and both dough and starter were colder than normal 64Fish...it also meant that when I added leaven to the dough I could not get the dough to warm up to the 78F  it needs ideally for bulk fermentation. So, excuse the frazzled me.....NOTE: I am not going to be as organised as Dan but I'm hanging in and stick with it and try to save this dough.....

I tend to mark my starter just with a rubber band and this as an idea I've got from Maurizio on 'The Perfect Loaf' blog and  he has a very good blog entry there on the 'rise and fall' of a starter with pictures etc. very helpful what to look out for.

Trevor, also has a very useful example of starter development on his IG. 

  

6:00 AM - Mixed the 50g leaven with the pre-mix which had a good consistency - BUT although the LEAVEN had risen and also looked bubbly and had that gooey stretch _ the Float test was not totally conclusive. Some bits floated and some didn't.....I have this sometimes and the starter still works though...SO it decided to just give it a go as I had the mix and all ready - also I did actually start the leaven at 19:30 and normally let is have the full 12 hours at this rate but the heating problem woke me up too early!!!! Aghhh...maybe the starter and I were both SLEEPY!

6:15 AM Mixed/folded the dough again and now will let is rest for an hour for the first S & F.  65F  - the heating is working now and hopefully will get temp up. Made up my mind, once and for all:  I will def. buy that Brod & Taylor folding proofer today!!!. Temps in my house in UK are unmanageable!

7:15  First S & F - The consistency of the dough was good but it still was too cold at 72F. Getting better though and I expect that means I just have to expect a longer bulk fermentation - assuming that there was not a problem with my leaven to start with! Oh well, I shall see...

Below picture of dough before S & F

8:15 2nd S & F - Dough looks good but still not up to 78F now 75F -  

 9:15 - 3rd S & F

 Below are picture before and after S & F - Temp. 76F - dough feels like a bit more airy but looking for more fermentation...mmmmh..

 Feels a bit like watching paint dry .........looking at these pics........

 10:30  4th S & F Gave the dough time to catch up and dough started to show bubbles, so starter appears to be ok - phew...there is still hope...--- needed a break and dog needed a walk - Trevor always said 'Don't let the dough run your day' so I decided to take a walk!

 

12:00  5th S & F AND Tension Pulls   Walk took longer than I thought and the dough started really to bubble and ferment while I was gone! I decided that it looked not too proofy but had good experience with those 'tension pulls' sooo. did some very gentle S & F first, then let the dough slip out of the bowl like in Trevor's IG video and links on our last experiment. Then did approx. 3 tension pulls which left me with a ball with nice tension and bubbles underneath.  I watch this dough now as should not go more than 30-50% according to Trevor's notes and might actually go for pre-shape in 30 min...and into 6 hours bulk fermentation and don't want to go too long.but due to temp I had a slow start soooo possibly can go longer or not....???

  •  12:30 Decision Time - to go for pre-shape or not....decided to go for pre-shape as very proofy and nice tension still from those earlier pulls??? So used wet hands to gently scoop underneath  the dough and loosen it from the bowl and then very gently got it out of the bowl...it felt a bit like a balloon....

ok that's what it looked like from the bowl...

OK - I thought - what shall I do so that I don't ruin all this lovely puffiness now? I didn't trust my scraper so I used this technique that I saw Trevor use for the final shaping where he kind of creates an envelope and folds dough up...this is what I did very gently and it was like folding a little puffy cushion...once I stitched it all together with tension I flipped it over and then did very gently rounding with both hands but not much! Voila! Now bench rest for 1 hour or less...we'll see. 

 OK the dough has 10 min left in pre-rounding to make it a full hour and still has some tension.... I went back to a blog from Trevor and found this lovely quote: 

"When it’s time to shape the loaf, the pre-round should feel ready. It should feel balanced. It should be begging you . . . “Shape me! Shape me! Please! There’ll never be a more perfect time than NOW!”

If you think your dough doesn’t speak to you, it’s because you’re not listening.

 So, I went and I tried to listen........AND...I will go for the whole hours and then shape.... 

 14:00 - Final Shape completed and dough rests in banneton

I tried to go really gently but also to create some good tension... first photo shows that the dough relaxed but still had some tension...next is the final shaped dough and then banneton for proofing...CUP OF COFFEE NEXT...

 15:30 - 2nd proof finished after 1 1/2 hour -  now in oven - Sorry I  forgot to take a picture. It had risen a bit in the banneton and still chewing gum type bubbles were to see. When I did the test the dough still had some spring to it but the holes from my finger sprung back more slowly....So I thought it was ready although Trevor says 3-4 hours....maybe now my room at 79F is too warm.....When I scored it still had some spring and sagged a tiny bit...

Oh well.....I post a picture once I lift that dome and and.......

here it is... 

I am very happy with this bake especially as I was not sure about the starter and

  1. learned actually about temperature and that lower temperature initially didn't seem to have done any harm...maybe slowed the fermentation process down but did not any permanent damage as it appears....
  2. to trust my starter and to learn to read it....although the float test was not 100% clear the smell and rise and texture of the starter was as usual and told me it should be ok....does anyone have more information on this and how common this is?
  3. still not quite sure why some bakes lack sometimes oven spring and where I have done things differently? One thing I noticed though was that during the final shaping my dough had a bit of a dent in the side and wasn't quite even. I was amazed how after 2nd proof in banneton that shape was maintained..so I wonder...if I give my final shape a bit of a higher shape, will this improve oven spring???? Wildly speculating here and shall investigate but maybe someone out there knows?
  4. Can't wait to find out about the crumb???

I hope that some of you found it useful...and the bakes I do together with Dan always turn out best for me so thank you for organising Dan!!! I would have given up otherwise this morning at 5:30!!!!   I am 8 hours ahead in time zones and keep fingers crossed for your bake!

 Here is today's loaf crumb shot...not quite yet the elusive 'Open crumb' but I am happy with my progress. I get consistent with this type of regular looking crumb, learn handling 70% hydration dough and judging stages of fermentation..and we all enjoy eating the bread......My Mum always said 'Es ist noch kein Meister vom Himmel gefallen'...meaning "never has a master just dropped from the sky' but you have to work for it!    Mums know always best!!!   Kat

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Kat, it’s probably too late, but have you thought about a heating pad?

 QUESTION - how did you do the 15 mix, then rest 10 - 15, then mix for 5 minutes the levain? I don’t remember him saying in the video.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi Dan,

Sorry for delay - had to walk the dog - he has been very patient waiting and the dough needed probably a bit more time after the 'cold' start...

On Trevor's blog http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/ there goes a written description with the recipe.  In the section 'Add Starter' is says:  

"As soon as you feel the dough really starting to tighten it’s time to take a break and let it relax for a few minutes. I usually knead the dough for 5-10 minutes to start, then take a 10-15 minute break to let the dough relax, then come back for a few more minutes of kneading at the end."     Kat

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Dan - I hope all is going well with you! This is now the key question for me - what to do next after the final shaping re. 2nd proof??

Can anybody help with this dilemma:  I seem to have a lively starter and get now consistently to this stage of preshape - more or less - I also appear to get a kind of decent shape the final shaping BUT the end product after baking  is often a loaf with not quite enough oven spring although I have some  oven spring and kind of consistent crumb looking like the one in the picture...I was so worried to overproof as the dough in the banneton gets so bubbly so quickly? Any thoughts are very welcome? This seems to be my next step in learning as people teaching  in schools would say...... (smiley face)....

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I still think it is the flour. I’m saying this because your crumb is consistently very nice. You’ve got that down...

If the gluten is not strong enough to hold the dough’s shape, it will squat. At least that is my thought.

Think about this. Let’s say you have 2 balloons. One is made of very thick, stiff rubber and the other has thin, stretchy rubber. Now both are filled with water. Which one will stand taller?

QUESTION - Which flour would promote the most open crumb? Bread flour or all purpose. (I’m not sure)

I’m no authority, but I always thought this was possibly your problem THE GREAT NEWS IS, if I’m right - you don’t have a problem! If you get better flour or add additional gluten and bake he bread the EXACT same way, your results will be much improved. IF I’m right.

The only other thing I can think of is the shaping. But, if the shaping was not right, wouldn’t you have irregular large holes randomly placed in the crumb? I really like the look of your crumb.

Let’s be real. We really want that wide open crumb that Trevor bakes. I know I do. But it’s really more of a status symbol than to serve utilitarian purposes. We’d need latex gloves to eat a sandwich made from such open crumb. LOL

Having said that, I’m hopeful. I placed an order today for 100 pairs of latex gloves. hehehe

UPDATE : - First off I have baked this bread about 3 times and I never knew that Trevor had more information on his website. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/  I only had the YouTube video to follow, imagine my surprise to read his instructions below the video. I’ve been flying in the dark! You kept mentioning things like 78 degrees. I had no idea where to were getting that.

Back to you crumb. I’m not sure any of the above is applicable. When I review your crumb shots I noticed that the first image shows a very nice crumb, but not so much the second one. Either the camera angle on the second image is not flattering OR the crumb shrank. I think it shrunk. Just yesterday I experienced “crumb shrinkage”. See this post.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55248/tip-another-reason-not-cut-your-bread-too-early

IMO, your boule looks risen and well formed when inspecting the first image. The first and second crumb shots don’t look like the same bread!

Danny

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi Danny,

I was wondering how you are getting on and blown out of my mind with your very scientific approach. Amazing...and there is ol' me just trying the 'tension pull' yet again top of my head just because I think it might be the right thing to do....He, He, He....bubbly personality/brain =  bubbly dough!!!!

I am just enjoying the learning at the moment and I believe that we sooner or later (probably later in my case) will get there - I always taught my son and pupils 'effort pays' and firmly believe in that and just served me well so far! So I have to take my own advice and get on with it!   AND then have to keep up with more laundry because of butter and jam dropping out of the bread!!!! Nice problem to have, I say!!!

I can't remember but I think it might have been Lechem who mentioned that I can get somewhere Canadian flour at a UK shop and this might be worth a try as similar to American flour? I will give this a go....However, dough handling is also a development area but I feel I am getting more confident...but I don't think I am ready to go all the way up to an 80% or 85% hydration dough yet after fiasco the other day.....I was wondering what would be a nice in-between....to get me 'gradually' better?   Good luck with the bake, can't wait to see the loaves and maybe you will need those gloves earlier than you thought????? Fingers crossed, Kat

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I read where he said that he had a harder time learning to bake than anyone he has ever taught. He says that why he thinks he is a good teacher today.

I will continue to forge on. “ what I lack in intelligence, I try to offset with tenacity”.

If you wanted to try something out before getting a stronger flour, you could try one or both of these test.

Get some vital Wheat Gluten. If you go this route you might try this. Mix your pre-mix and after it sets the required time add your starter. Mix it in as usual until it is well incorporated. Then when you start to knead (I use the Rubaud Method) very slowly add small amount of gluten. You’ll be amazed how so little will have a drastic affect to the strength of your dough. Don’t over do it. A little goes a long way.

Or, you could make the bread with AP flour! You could go the other extreme and learn the results. Did it slump more? How did it feel in hand? What was the crumb like? Etc.. I know that is a radical idea, but if you can’t get stronger flour and you don’t have gluten...?

Even if all of what I said is incorrect, you would be able to rule it out.

Consider your shaping. If that is not it, look at the flour.

THOUGHT - you said you were very concerned during shaping about bursting the bubbles. Why not throw care to the wind and shape away next time. Get a little more aggressive. Cut the dough in half and shape, shape.

Failure can be a valuable tool for learning.

For What It’s Worth,

Dan

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi Dan,

You are totally right...I shall explore and keep experimenting...funnily enough found on IG an amazing baker and he recommended two UK flours and I shall try those. 

I also shall experiment with shaping...I was happy with the preshape and how it kept it's tension but relaxed..so final shape it is... Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I will be starting my bread around 7 tonight. I want to try to keep the room temp portion of the  pre-mix to no more than 8 hours. That means 7:30 to 9:30 I’ll refrigerate the premix and then 9PM to 5AM at room temperature (estimate 66F). My home is somewhat warm (I live south of New Orleans). I am concerned that if the flour stays wet for too much time, it may degrade enough to weaken the dough’s ability to hold it’s shape. I decided to use refrigerated water in the initial pre-mix. Trevor dealt with this concern by adding salt and cooling the dough. Even though this dough is not highly hydrated it should be very extensible due to the extended pre-mix.

For clarification - The initial pre-mix includes the salt in order to slow down the enzyme action because of the extended wet time. An autolyse is flour and water ONLY(thanks dabrownman {;-) . Trevor makes the distinction in his book by calling his mix of flour, water, and salt a pre-mix.

At 7PM I got my starters fed for next day’s bake. I also mixed the pre-mix and refrigerated. At around 9:30PM the pre-mix will be set out on the bench.

Oh, I decided to test the strengths of both of my starters, so I plan to bake 2 loaves. Each will use a different starter. The 2 on the left are the ones I’ll be using. The 2 on the right are my regulars.

7PM pre-mix complete and headed to the refrigerator for a couple of hours, then out on the bench till morning. I loves my Spurtle! Thanks, JustAnOldGuy for the tip. It’s only a fancy stick, but it is the best thing I know for mixing dough to a shaggy mass. No a bit of dough on hands or fingers with this baby. You could hold the spoon end of a wooden spoon and get the same result, but it wouldn’t be keeping with the Scottish tradition. 

Below the starters ready for the today’s mix. The one on the left is 50% rye + 50% KA AP flour. The one next to it is 100% KA AP.

12 hour cycle from feed to recede.

Below, the premix has spent 2 hours in the refrigerator and 8 hours on the bench. NOTE: this dough is in much better condition than the dough’s in my prior bakes. I attribute the cold water used in the mix and also the bench rest was 8 hours instead of 12. I think the other doughs were degraded a little too much because they spent too much time wet. Maybe not, just a thought...

Below both doughs are pictured after the second Stretch & Fold. Rye starter on left.

 

Sorry, rye starter got switched to the right in the image below. Top and bottom images where taken at the same time. It would have been nice if I had 2 of the 2qt/2L Cambros. NOTE; containers with smaller diameters show the percentage of growth much better than wider ones. I use the same principle for my starters.

The doughs below are starting to show signs of yeast activity. If you look closely you might see the bubbles. They are small and not many.

My last hourly fold is due in 45 minutes. It looks like the video shows shaping right after this, no sedimentary proof what-so-ever. I think I’ll follow the video without deviation. Typically I cold proof overnight.

I think I’m giving birth to a Beaut! Didn’t cold proof this one. Bench proofed for 3hr 30min.

Any guesses as to how I shot this image?

Here is the second test bake. Images below.

Crumb shot for the second bread. “Cut no bread before it’s time”.

 

CONCLUSIONS

The first and second bakes where handled the same UNTIL the proof. The first bread was proofed at room temperature and the second was retarded for almost a day and then baked cold.

FINDINGS

I believe that the room temperature proof on the first loaf made a huge difference. OK, Trevor already explained that in his book, “80% of Open Crumb is attributable to two things - handling and FERMENTATION”. Oh yes, fermentation.

FUTURE BAKES

I will be highly focused on full fermentation, especially at the proofing stage. I’m considering these possibilities.

  • First Method Possibility - (If any type of cold ferment is used) Cold retard the bulk ferment after the instructed S&F, then shape and proof fully at room temp. I’m thinking that it might be best to do the room temp fermenting AFTER the dough has finished being handled. The idea is to not disturb the dough during the final stage of fermentation, and at the same time ferment at room temp for greater expansion.
  • Second (and best, I think) Method - Continue as instructed for most of the S&F, until near the end. Then the last few sessions would be S&F with the addition of Tension Pulls to enhance the dough’s shaping abilities and strength. Once that process completes remove from Bulk Bucket, do as many sets of Tension Pulls necessary to condition the dough for better shaping. Finally shaping and then a full proof at room temp before baking. My thoughts on this one is; the many S&F will facilitate greater dough structure by forming many layers of glutens sheets that are aligned. During the BF, the dough constantly being disturbed through  manipulation, so the focus here is on structure and strength mainly, and not so much on inflating the dough. After the final manipulation is finished, the shaped dough is placed in the banneton to rest. It is at this time, when the dough is no longer being handled, that the rising will take place creating pockets that can only be disturbed by the baker during transfer to the baking vessel and scoring.

If you disagree or have suggestions to improve the process, please let me know. I want to learn.

Dan

”inquiring minds want to know”

jmoore's picture
jmoore

Very nice looking loaf, Dan! Do you by chance have any pictures post final proof, right before it went in? I'd be interested in knowing how much it expanded in the banneton.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Unfortunately not. It would be nice to have a photographer shadow me while baking. LOL 

I can say that it didn’t rise wildly above the banneton. But the dough was “poofy”, cloud like. It was pretty loose. I really get anxious when it comes time to release from banneton and the SCORE! High anxiety, after all of that work. I bet you know what I mean {;-) .

Dan

Oh, It’s never too late to join us. We need all the help we can get. I’ve been baking with Leslie and Kat lately and our collaborations have benefited all of us. Leslie couldn’t join us this weekend :-(  .

jmoore's picture
jmoore

I'm actually doing a 2 loaf bake today, but it's not the Champlain recipe. I've been documenting the process with photos, and maybe I'll post them if the result isn't too bad. :)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Knowing what not to do is very beneficial, albeit not an exuberant experience ;-).  I know that all too well.

What bread are you baking?

Dan

jmoore's picture
jmoore

I try to keep my recipes simple. The first is a 5/8 freshly milled and sifted Serventa wheat, with the remaining 3/8 KA AP at 78% hydration. The second is the other way around: 3/8 Serventa and 5/8 KA AP. The closer I get to 100% freshly milled, the less open the crumb. I haven't done a lot of experimenting with breads having less than 50% freshly milled flour, so perhaps it's inherently a flour issue?

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

High percentages of whole grain will make a loaf that is more dense. Do you sift your flours? A number of advanced baker’s here extract the large bit from the whole grains and the feed them to their starter. That way the bran and other hard bits are softened by the time spent in the starter and still keep the nutrition. Search the site for the user, “dabrownman”. He is full of knowledge on this subject and many others.

I don’t generally bake high % of whole grains, but when I do I expect a loaf that is more dense. Not a brick, but not light and airy.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi,

Interesting to hear what Dan said about rise in the banneton. I did not take a picture either but I you see my picture when I put it in the banneton above, after the 1 1/2 proof in banneton it almost had risen to the rim, if that helps. Is that too much?   Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The dough was refrigerated for 13 hours and is ready to bake.

 

Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Deleted

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Dan,

Trying to keep up with message and absorb...That looks like an amazing loaf and I also like the little 'blisters' you've got!  Can't wait for the crumb.......Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

look forward to crumb on 2nd bake.

Leslie

agmeneghin's picture
agmeneghin

Dan,

I did a very similar bake with one loaf proofed at room temp and another retarded overnight and bake cold from the frig. The cold retarded loaf was KA AP flour and WW rather than W Rye.

JUST BEFORE PRE SHAPE

Just before preshape

LOAF #2 - RIGHT AFTER SHAPING

LOAF #! RIGHT AFTER SHAPING

I pushed the final proof for the room temp. loaf #1 based on the account of Trevor's Supple Champlain loaf to four and a half hours but I think I went too far. I was using 10" banettons and the dough had risen about a half inch from the top. When I turned out the dough into the combo baker scoring was pretty difficult and the dough was very poofy.

LOAF #1 - JUST BEFORE BAKING

All in all I happy with the results but think I pushed the final fermentation too far.

LOAF #1 

LOAF #1 CRUMB

I baked the second loaf after 13 hours of cold retard at 38 deg directly into a cold combo and oven. I baked for 20 minutes after the oven temp. came up to 500 deg. Then reduced the temp to 450 deg. for 15 more minutes. The overall height was less than the first loaf and oven spring was considerably smaller. I think that I should have bench proofed this loaf for an hour or so before sticking it in the fridge. Another option is that is measured the temp. in the vegetable drawer and it's 52 deg. and may allow enough proofing so that's not necessary.

LOAF #2

Any comments or help from anyone would be appreciated. I have another loaf in premix and hope to make an improvement this time around. I've been absorbing all the knowledge available on this site and just want to say thanks to all the people that offer advice.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

By the looks of the dough in the bannetons, your starter seems strong.

Are you baking the Champlain exactly like Trevor instructs? I ask because it’s best to do so when doing comparative bakes for learning purposes. 

I was talking to the others that have been working to perfect this bread. We are shooting for very open crumb. I figure, if we can purposely bake bread with this exaggerated open crumb, we can better deal with other breads that we want to be light and airy.

But think about this. So we don’t get the gigantic holes with open crumb, BUT take a look at your crumb. The bread is light and very nice. It’s kind of like the person who trains to throw a spear and hit the moon. He practices and practices, but never does reach his goal. But did he fail? NO. He reached the clouds, where others are only able to only obtain a short height. As we practice, even our flops become extremely good...

Trevor mentions that open crumb is 80% fermentation and handling. Looks to me like you’ve had good fermentation. I’d suggest focusing on handling.

Do you have Trevor’s book? It is extremely helpful. Kat, Leslie and I refer to it religiously. It is downloadable and the price is $10. https://trevorjwilson.selz.com/item/open-crumb-mastery-for-the-intermediate-sourdough-baker-1-1

Hopefully others will write in with their critiques.

Another though. I have an 8” and also a 10” banneton. I’m using the smaller one for these loaves because the dough is only 800 grams. I think the larger banneton will allow the dough to spread out too much. If you think this is a possibility in your case (and you don’t have a smaller basket) you could increase the dough weight to 1000 grams or so. That may cause your bread to stand higher after baked. Trevor also mentioned that he uses a towel in the basket for 2 reasons. One so the dough doesn’t stick, but the other really interested me. He says that the towel when wrapped up around the dough ball will help to keep it more erect. I tried that my last bake and was happy with the results. I firmly believe, “it’s the small things that make a big difference”.

Let us know how you progress.

Dan

agmeneghin's picture
agmeneghin

Hi Dan,

I'm following Trevor's instruction as best I can, no way I can handle dough like him. I can't figure how to get my mix with starter so it comes out like his but practice makes perfect. The second loaf with the AP flour and WW was mixed in error. I had put the formula in a spreadsheet but forgot to change the headings so I mixed up one the right way. I definitely do this for the challenge, the bread is great as is but it would be nice to develop the skill to get the crumb I want on a consistent basis. 

I do have Trevor's book and I'm going through it a second time now. I find it extremely helpful and each time I bake the Champlain I go back to the book or videos and find tips I missed.

I missed the comment on using the towels as extra support in the banetton. I'll try that on the loaf I have bulk fermenting now. I used the 10" banetton because I prefer the dough not rise over the top of the basket so the shower cap I use doesn't rest on the dough but the towel will solve that problem as well. So it's 8 " banetton with a floured towel this time around. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the tips, I'm learning more already

Al

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

That looks fab Dan - much better behaved than my semi-floating panic inducing starter...However, he did the job in the end...do your starter have names? I know you are too busy to respond with 2 loaves. Blimey! 

The starter I created half rye half white for the Champlain did not have a name but after today I shall name him MONTY......as he was created initially for the Champlain SD who comes from VERMONT....

I almost named my dog Monty but was overruled with Barney..... Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

can't wait for the crumb shot.

Kat your bake looks pretty good to me too!  it is really fun when things don't go to plan, but it all seems good at the end.

Leslie