The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Anyone interested in a Champlain SD bake?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Anyone interested in a Champlain SD bake?

For sure Kat, (aka, “not.a.crumb.left”) and I will be baking Trevor’s Champlain SD. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/

We last baked this bread here. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55123/overproofing-underproofing-sourdough-or-just-bad-shapingwhat-does-it-look.

Since most bakers are separated by many miles and even different countries, this “community bake” may be the second best way to share information and learn together along the way. The idea, for those who want to participate is that we document our progress with pictures and post. It is suggested that each participant start a reply to document their progress. As more information and images are available you can edit that post and append it. We’ll share our success, and just as informative, our failures. During the process we can ask questions, compare results, or offer suggestions. Both pro and novice have a place here. 

We plan to start our bake today. Following Trevor’s video. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/ , we’ll begin with an overnight premix (autolyse with salt). And get our starters fed and active for the next day’s final mix.

I hope others choose to join in. The more the merrier. Even if you don’t come aboard now you can still post your results at any time in the future. All threads are constantly monitored for recent activity. Be sure, someone will be available to assist you.

Dan 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Oh beautiful...I love the swirly patterns in your scoring...like waves ! Your loaves always have so much character!

You know I love that scoring when you have a square and I think it is beautiful that the Japanese character for mouth is guchi or kuchi and a square.....but not a rigid one in calligraphy...neither in bread....

So, I always think that the scoring is like calligraphy on a bread.....and putting 'a mouth' on a bread is amazing because that is where it should go!!!! I am sure this one will taste fantastic!   Kat

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi, I have been experimenting with different folding to see how it affects the crumb on 75% hydration Champlain.

I liked my previous bigger holes but wanted to see how I could get it a little bit more evenly distributed and also see what happens, if I have a shorter bulk whether the dough has a firmer 'standing on it's own' type of consistency when I put it on the bench....It has often gone poofy and then I have a very 'sloppy' preshape with looking shape quickly....bread is good but just wanted to experiment a bit...

So I followed something that Trevor mentioned on an IG post yesterday in his comments to someone:

"I've been bulking for 3-4 hours, usually with folds every 30 minutes for the first 2 hours, then moving on to tension pulls every 30 minutes for the remainder of bulk. But nothing is ever given. I often change it up as needed. Different recipes and doughs call for different treatments. Sometimes I bulk longer, sometimes shorter. Sometimes I give it more folds, sometimes less. Just gotta give the dough what it needs given the conditions."

I think it doesn't have the bigger holes but seems to be a bit of a more balanced and evenly distributed crumb......and I think this might be the tension pulls towards the end of the bulk??????   

My son shakes his head and can't believe that I am analysing bread!!!!   

Kat

p.s. I desperately need to buy a new bead knife....I keep ripping the lovely bread...

After 1 hour autolyse pre-mix and Rubaud..

12:30 Start Bulk Ferment in Proofer 78F

13:00 Normal S & F and tighten up folds a la Trevor video  temp catching up 71F

13:30 S & F - normal - Temp 73 F

14:00 S & F normal - 72F

15:00   dough had to wait as I walked the dog   Tension fulls, 74f

15:30 tension pulls  and then preshape 

16:30 Final Shape

The dough did not go as proofy and maybe due to the proofing under tension is slower as it says in Trevor's book?

So I did notice that the dough did 'stand' more on it's own and pre-shape seems to be less 'sloppy'...

Below picture of dough out of the tub after bulk:

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I’d be happy have my bake come out like that!  tweaking the folds etc may just be all that you need to do if you want it more open.

Leslie

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi Leslie, 

Yep, I was happy with this outcome and expected actually more a honeycomb crumb but it reminded me a lot of your crumb and I also said to Carl before that I like the even distribution of air pockets in his crumb.

So I baked a Tartine Country today and wanted to follow a similar pattern of folds but lost track of timings and the dough got sooooo proofy....Using a tension pull to get it out the container is a great way to get a 'manageable' dough on the bench I find and the pre-shape was not too bad...but the final shape....boy...could not get a batard at all and ended up shaping in a boule....That will be an interesting bake tomorrow!   

It will be actually interesting to 'throw the crutches' away (thank you Carl!) and bake this again with the old hydration of 304g water. I shall try tomorrow.....that would be interesting....

Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I love the feeling of extra strength you get with the tension pulls and last bake did mostly that. my issue is the extensibility of the dough and how it spreads. and that I think is from the high proportion of spelt and rye. Maybe I should try a straight Champlain again.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Leslie,

Let's do it ....I think it is the flour too.......Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

will let you know. of course you can do it now, and i will play catch up 😊

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I have also visitors from London at the weekend so after the weekend would be great! Kat

p.s. how do you get the emojis...I can't do that on my computer...!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I don’t know how on my PC either, you should get them on your phone too.😊

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Kat, I bet you are taking pictures with your phone. If you want them to orient properly make sure the camera button is either on the right side for landscape or on the bottom for portrait. 

I had this problem a few months back.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

spot on Dan, my son just rolls his eyes when he sees me with my phone...too much going on at the same time and the phone is full of dough and flour....sorry for the distorted view of the world...my yoga teacher keeps saying it is good to see the world sometimes upside down .....lol    Kat

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Love your sense of humour!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I've never tried Pilates but love Yoga! So, I am actually trying headstand but NOT in the kitchen, everyone...be assured! Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

great stuff, but haven’t tried yoga, I’m not flexible enough.

Leslie

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I go 4-5 times a week and it never gets easier. We once had another instructor take the class as a participant and she told my instructor: “What the heck was this? Boot camp Pilates?” It was pretty funny because even though she was a Pilates instructor, she couldn’t keep up with us! Natalie prides herself on making it tough for us. 

I have tried yoga and it isn’t easy either but it just moves too slowly for me. Then again, I wonder why I go torture myself on an almost daily basis! 🙄

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Now, I am intrigued about  your Pilates class.amazing every day!!!...You know, you can always speed up the sun salutations and that normally does the trick with me! Yep warmed up all right - good morning sun!

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

will show you some basic Pilates moves.

https://greatist.com/fitness/10-minute-pilates-workout

There are tons more but at least it will give you an idea of what some are. Now picture doing those moves in 3 to 5 sets of 15 to 50+ times depending on the instructor’s mood and the level of difficulty of the class. Your muscles are screaming by the time you are done. Classes are 50 minutes long.

Last Friday was a friend’s birthday and she turned 71. Yep, the reps were 71 in a row! 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I see what you mean but there are also a lot of similarities like the push up you can do as part of sun salutation. I might give it a go. Shouldn't I be here for a while then I cannot hold the phone anymore! Trevor would be so impressed!! We are baking and we are working out too!!!!  🙏💪💪

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Ha! I can barely get out of bed without wrenching my back! I can however bake a mean bread! It kind of sucks that it took me so long to realize what I had a passion for. Oh will, better late than never they say.

CarlThePigFarmer's picture
CarlThePigFarmer

It's been such a treat catching up on all these bakes. What an incredible community working together to help each other.

I wanted to chime in and offer a counter point to upping hydration for this bake.

I have been rereading some of Trevor's postings, mostly the one on how to get open crumb from stiffer dough. I think a huge part of the champlain bake is trying to do just that. His point is to not use higher hydration as a crutch to achieve open crumb and use this bake to focus on the other extensive and equally important variables. Is the ceiling higher for open crumb with higher hydration? Sure, but that's not the point in this case.

Champlain take 3. Eaten on the bank of Oregon's fabled North Umpqua. Finally was able to bake it as written with Rye instead of einkorn. Sorry I did not document it but the timeline was almost the same as my second bake.

I love that strand of gluten on the left holding down the fort.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I love that crumb!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Another beautiful loaf. Yes, I like the gluten “column” that holding up the ceiling of the cave :-) .

Question - how long did you wait before slicing the bread in your crumb shot?

I ask because it seems if I slice my bread early it gets a concave curve on the bottom of the loaf similar to your’s. Was that the case with that bread?

I try to wait a day before cutting. I want the crumb to set, but I also find the bread bread taste better after “aging”. Have you noticed that?

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I think you are right about the hydration and I think there is 1 more factor (among the many) that is also important. Danni3113 makes this point too. The flours available to us.  this will influence hydration and handling.

Leslie

CarlThePigFarmer's picture
CarlThePigFarmer

Thanks Guys,

And Dan let's try to figure this out! I would love to know because that concave drives me crazy. I know my crust tends to pull back and shatter but I'd like the bottom to stay flat. I have been wondering if it has to do with the surface and baking temps on the "deck".
This loaf was cut about 16 hours after baking so we can't blame cutting it too soon in this case.
I agree that the bread tastes more "honest" at least 24 hours after baking. I will admit to LOAVING that sweet spot of 4 or 6 hours after the bake when it has time to set but barely,

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Try woking a bake.   I put two slightly flat bottom woks together as a baking chamber.  

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I just checked the bottom of a Champlain that is uncut and aging. I noticed it has a slightly concave bottom. Maybe it is a result of the open crumb. I'll have to look at other crumb shots to see if that thought works out.

Also, I think we both bake with high heat. I go 500 and sometimes 550F. On this bake my crust had the really nice cracking.

If you figure something out, please let me know and I'll do the same.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I sure wished we could fish together... You'd love sight fishing our flats. 

That was taken years ago, before I "matured". Hehehe

The guys in the black and red shirts were clients.

We released all fish and all flies were barbless. I've been Blessed...

Dan

CarlThePigFarmer's picture
CarlThePigFarmer

Dan all these pictures are just amazing but I especially love that first one because it is just so easy to relate with. 

I've have not been so lucky to fish for redfish yet but it is very near the top of the bucket list, if not at the top right now.

Sight fishing for those beuts!! what a dream come true..

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

You've done it again! I cannot believe the things you guys get me to do...I actually went and checked the bottom of my loaves or what is left of them....hmmmm...not sure...I don't think there is a curve. But I think the bread gets tighter after a day or not....I can't really tell as it gets eaten so quickly or given away. I use this terra cotta fairly cheap Mason Cash dome and pizza plate. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

My sister keeps posting this amazing vids to me and this one I wanted to share...I see soooo many beautiful breads here and on IG and sometimes I think,  'oh I wish I could do that'...and it is easy to loose track of what I get out of my baking and the joy I am getting out of it......I hope, it is ok sharing...and you might enjoy the story. It is just 4 minutes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnGIpqvipM4

Kat

agmeneghin's picture
agmeneghin

Thank you Kat,

Sometimes short term goals overwhelm life's important long term considerations. That video reminded me to try to balance those goals.

Al

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Never stop ttose goals...but we are all 'beautiful birds (aka loaves)', she says as she looks down on her loaf that lacks oven spring!!!!  Kat

syros's picture
syros

Bake #5 if anyone is interested....

A few reflections on this recipe - I have not had a problem with hydration - when mixing the flour and water initially it seems like it's going to be dry but when I really get my hands in there, it's been moist. I do warm my water because I'm not doing the long autolyse that Trevor does, and Maurizio talks about water temperature and it's importance. So I don't know if that has any impact on how my flour is absorbing the water. I am such a newbie at this....

  • Decided to try Red Fife White Unbleached flour - and it almost felt like a high hydration dough. Was quite sticky and not easy to pre-shape but during shaping, was quite light and airy. That being said, sticking to the version with 100g starter - and a 1 1/2 autolyse - no levain or salt: I played with the flour amounts - but staying within the same % that Abe worked out for me:
  • 372g Red Fife White Unbleached organic flour
  • 38g White Spelt
  • 11g Rye (I wanted less Rye)
  • 279g Warm water - autolyse 1 1/5 hours
  • then added 100g starter
  • 9g salt
  • Kneaded 10 minutes
  • left to bench rest 45 minutes
  • 4 sets of stretch & folds over 3 hours and 15 minutes (more or less)
  • Pre-shape - was really hard - very sticky and after 10 minutes, floured my counter and did a 2nd pre-shape and let rest another 30 minutes
  • Shaped - was really extensible and airy - gave it a rest in banneton for 40 minutes 
  • Fridge for 12 hours
  • Scored & baked at 450F for 20 minutes with lid, 25 minutes w/o lid
  • after 5 minutes, was worried my scoring wasn't deep enough and tried to rescore lightly (I know I know, bad bad)
  • Oven rise - so so. 
  • Crumb shot to follow. For some reason my photos are not in order!
syros's picture
syros

So here they are - I was surprised and I like the taste very much. Mild. Not too tangy.

syros's picture
syros

So here they are - I was surprised and I like the taste very much. Mild. Not too tangy.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Sharon,

Sorry for the delayed reaction...lovely crumb and it looks like you have a 'star' scoring on the bread! I love bread with character! Kat

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Yesterday I made Trevor's Champlain sourdough as per recipe, just enough for 2 approx 550 g batards. 

Levain was built overnight 7 g mature starter seed + 34 g bread flour + 34 g water. (I had used bran in the earlier part of the build). 

Just after I got up I mixed the flours - 544 g bread flour + 13 g gluten + 54 g freshly milled spelt + 27 g freshly milled rye and 409 g water (I held 27 g back at this point) .  Spelt and rye were milled once on setting 6 on my Mockmill 100, the bran sieved off for the levain, then it was remilled at setting 1.  This was left to autolyse for just over an hour.

Added salt (13.4 g) and levain (74 g)  and mixed using a mix of stretch and folds, attempted rolling :( not good, and yes even just a few slap and folds. left to rest for 10 minutes. The dough was really firm so I added the remaining 27 g water and did a few more stretch and folds.  Still very firm dough but decided to run with it after my experiences with the Tartine style Country Champlain. 

During the bulk ferment I did 5 lots of 10 stretch and folds then left for about 1 1/2 hours. 

Here it is about 2 hours into BF

I was on a schedule so at 3:30 pm decided, yes it has increased a bit, looking a little poofy, a few bubbles on top so I divided the dough, preshaped and left for 30 minutes before final shaping. 

2 hours later it had risen a bit, looked a bit poofy, so into the oven - 250 deg C for 15 minutes lid on the DO, 15 minutes lid off.  

Voila! they look better than I hoped.  

The dough had never felt really light during the bulk ferment and I was sure I would end up with a bit of a brick.  I was mistaken.

Some of the slices are so open, that definitely no good for jam or honey as it would all end up in my lap or somewhere else.    Then I went to Trevor's website to look at his crumb, I am amazed!! lol what a good way to end the last bake before my holiday!!

Leslie

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and nothing better than that amazing bake to achieve that!  I think both loaves look really pretty!

I have the oven going to bake my Champlain and I also wanted to do two doughs  BUT  I got distracted at the end of bulk (yet again!) and the dough went MAD and more tnan doubled. I always wanted to try rolls and just decided to try a boule and the rest will be 'rolls'.....Oh....dividing....never tried that before....didn't even attempt of using scale  and just went for judging by eye....So....different sizes of loaves and rolls coming up...they would be interesting to decide on a price....I heard somewhere that in France they weight the SD and then give a price  ..welll that would be my type of bakery!!!!!   Kat

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Baking a set of 2 Chaimplains started with the camera ready and best intentions and then the day ran away!

Sorry, Leslie not much documentation but one interesting thing that I learnt from one of the Matt Ormsby vids was that he uses 2nd Hydration as he calls is  and puts some water in the container when starting bulk fermentation dough absorbs it during bulk.....

Since I started to use the plastic container to monitor growth that can be very sticky, I 've found this a very useful trick to make the dough not so much stick in the corners....

I also found that the container as  it is tall and narrow for more dough is making it tricky to do folds....need to ponder on this...how best to measure proofing and might try the trick with dough in separate glass to monitor progress.....

The boule does not have the best oven spring but I ended up with a little family of loaves. It was a nightmare to bake with two different domes at the same time and probably lost a lot of heat in the oven doing them not in sync....

I am really curious what the crumb will look in the smaller rolls......

I named them 'Mama dough with big brother, big sister and two younger sisters tagging along'....funny that....just like my siblings! He, he, he...

Also....I've heard that some bakeries sell their SD in France by weight.....that would be my type of bakery where the bread is sold like something naturally grown like apples or potatoes...not very practical, I know.....  Kat

p.s. I think burgers with SD rolls in our house tonight!

---------------------------------------

I just added crumb shot from big 'Mama' bread and happy with that...I had loaves with more oven spring and open crumb but I am just happy that on a 'bad' day with distractions and other stuff happening I still can bake a loaf like that.....It shows that I am getting more consistent...I think....

Oh so curious about rolls.....but have to wait for tonight....

=======================================

here is crumb from the small roll....just now devoured by my son...didn't make it to the burger! I am happy with this...

syros's picture
syros

Kat, you amaze me! I’m really starting to enjoy this Champlain bread. I love everyone’s fine tuning it to suit their schedules and needs and tastes. Makes me want to take some risks. Still not ready for his Country Tartine bread though.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

if you keep baking but I am also a bit weary of the Tartine with the larger amount of water...I've tried it but actually get better crumb with the Champlain because of better handling I think... Kat

syros's picture
syros

I decided after checking both recipes to go with Maurizio Leo’s Best Sourdough Recipe - it’s his version of the Tartine SD - high hydration- but he warns you about not putting all the water in as you keep out 50g and add what you need back in when you add the levain and then the salt - he breaks that down into 3 stages: the autolyse, the levain, and then the salt. Anyways it’s a sticky dough, pre-shaping was tough but he says to use more flour during shaping and it certainly worked out. It’s in the fridge now - we’ll see. Not sure I’d work with another high hydration soon - it really is challenging. But the dough feels light and airy. 

Might post a photo tomorrow.. Believe it or not, forgot to take photos until I put it in the baneton.

Sharon

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and keep fingers crossed....can't wait for the result - and whatever the outcome you will have learnt something! Kat

p.s. Awful those people with advice, aren't they.........

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

if you keep baking but I am also a bit weary of the Tartine with the larger amount of water...I've tried it but actually get better crumb with the Champlain because of better handling I think... Kat

syros's picture
syros

Leslie, that is a beautiful bake! You should be so happy with that! Impressive! Enjoy your break from baking. 

Sharon

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

and you have a very nice crumb too.

Re the tall containers, I haven’t been using mine lately as doing folds in them would not be easy at all. I used to do S & F first then leave alone in them to double. Techniques have changed and I use the shot glass. having said that, its funny as this time the Champlain didn’t rise in the shot glass, whereas the other doughs did. I went by the appearance in the bowl.

happy baking Kat

Leslie

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

try the 'Schnapsglass' next time! I keep forgetting!  Kat

CarlThePigFarmer's picture
CarlThePigFarmer

Continuing to try to get the most out of the Champlain bake,

I did the overnight premix with salt, sticking with the 70% hydration.

Mixed in the starter around 10am and bulk went about 6 hours. I used a series of stretch and folds, then rolled the dough into itself several times and then gently worked around it around the bowl a couple times just building tension and tightness, making sure to not tear the developed gluten.

Preshaped, always pondering over how much tension to "leave on the table" as Trevor says.

Shaping was not the best effort, too much bench flour and my stitching wouldn't stick. It looked ok before sitting there before I put it in the basket so ok we will see. Proofed in the basket without a liner so if it stuck I would have an alibi for my questionable shaping.

Proofed at 58 degrees.

I started later then usual and went checked on it at 9pm and it had filled the basket nicely but the poke test sprung back way too quickly. And then a dilemma. Do I stay up and hope it finishes in a reasonable time or do I put it in the fridge, bake it in the morning and risk going over? I decided to start preheating the oven and bake it in an hour no matter what. 15 minutes before bake I poked it again it things looked good! phew. Put it in the freezer for 10 minutes to make slashing a little easier and then here we go.

In the end I am happy with the choices I made. I'm curious if it would of made it to the morning in the fridge and be ok. Maybe next time I will make two and try it both ways.

 

 

NeilM's picture
NeilM

Great looking Loaf :)

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

lovely ear and now for the crumb shot?

Leslie

CarlThePigFarmer's picture
CarlThePigFarmer

Thanks Leslie. Unfortunately we won't get a crumb shot of this one as it was given away rather unexpectedly.  But I will make up for it by trying again next week hopefully. Sorry :( ! I was sad to see it go but it was for a good cause (one hopes).

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and don't trust myself with the poke test. So fridge retarding is the easy way out at the moment. I probably should try the proofing at room temperature more but each loaf under or overproofed is a bit of a heartbreak.

Lovely, lovely loaf!

Kat

syros's picture
syros

Carl, that is a lovely looking loaf! Whatever you did, worked out! Trevor did say to me that after shaping - to leave it out for about an hour and then into the fridge - so you could do that next time. I just found that I dont’ like to bake it at night. And to bake it straight from the fridge. 

agmeneghin's picture
agmeneghin

Hi Carl,

Great looking loaf the color is beautiful.

When you put the loaf in the freezer is it still in the basket?

Al

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

Hi All, 

     Here's my latest bake.  If you recall, my last bake had all white flour in the autolyse, and all my whole grains were in the preferment.  With that I reported that timing had gotten really screwed up and I wasn't able to do any folds, or a proper final proof, which resulted in bran streaking throughout the crumb.  

     This time, I made plenty of time, but...   

So I started out to do a double-batch because I wanted to share a loaf with a friend and keep one at home.  I had  800g flour, 12% of which was whole grains in a ratio of 1:2 rye to whole wheat.  Half of the whole grains were in the dough and half in the preferment.  Both the dough and the preferment were at 70% hydration.  I had asked my wife to take the dough out of the fridge when she went to bed, but she misplaced her reminder note; so I took it out when I got home from work at 6:00am.  

The dough was a bit stiff due to the cold, but having the dough and the starter at the same hydration made mixing relatively easy.  After a 5-min mix/15-min rest/5-min mix combo it came together nicely into a smooth cooperative ball.  After the third set of folds I divided it into two bowls and continued folds every hour until six sets of folds were done.

After the sixth fold I pre-shaped one batch into a nice round ball and let it bench rest for an hour.  30 min later I pre-shaped the second one - I separated them so that the second would be proofing while the first was baking.  The first one proofed nicely and went into the oven as my wife reminded me that we needed the oven to make dinner.  The loaf in the pictures is #1.  The crumb shot is from my friend, whom I asked for a picture.  

Loaf #2 languished in the banneton for an hour too long (Can a guy catch a break??)  And the structure suffered accordingly.  The loaf was a little saggy and some of the central bubbles consolidated into the center of the loaf, making for a few cavernous holes right down the middle.  In the crumb surrounding the middle the holes were pretty decently distributed and nicely sized.  And it tastes great.  Didn't take any pictures of that one - didn't see the point.

Because my mixing and folds went so well this time, I didn't see any of the bran streaks in these loaves.  And other than #2 overproofing everything went well - very satisfied with this one!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

baking around family life! Yep that is an interesting one!

I would be very happy with this bake and nothing more satisfying than to share with friends...especially the ones who understand our 'obsession' and provide a crumb shot. I had friends visit recently and they were very upset with the suggestion to cut the loaf in half before they left but very happily provided a crumb shot. I now have even friends who provide crumb shots of loaves that they buy with their bakeries across the UK to compare....That was their idea!!!!!   Kat

syros's picture
syros

Bet it tastes great too! Maybe next time you have a conflict with time - and it happens to me all the time - shove it back in the fridge. What’s the worst that can happen? At least it won’t over proof hopefully! Learned that the hard way. I’m still working on timing!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I learnt a lot from baking this loaf with fellow bakers here....and now it is my go to loaf to feed the family!

I will keep looking for another loaf that I keep baking until getting it right.....so I  keep looking out for all those lovely loaves.....here...... Kat

HansB's picture
HansB

Very good looking loaf!!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

this is the one I can bake kind of consistently.....and whenever one goes wrong I need to bake this one to boost my confidence again.......Kat

syros's picture
syros

Makes me want to make another one already! I’ll have to try your formula next. So tempting! Congratulations!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I have a 50/50 Wholewheat on the go similar to Maurizio's recipe, a bit of Rubaud and a recipe from Carl....

the 75% hydration Champlain seems to be the 'sweet spot' with my flour here in UK... Kat

syros's picture
syros

Amazing amazing!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Probably should not be in this thread...bread filled with sunshine...today's 50/50 wholewheat...

syros's picture
syros

Kat we should start another thread.... Seriously, this one is way too long and we are now veering into other areas!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Well ...he knows me well.... and delivered this in the oven today!    Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your breads are beautiful. But it didn’t come easy.

You worked hard, were consistent and persevered. You deserve the accolades!

The bloom and ears are outstanding...

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I learnt so much baking together and helped me not loosing heart!   Kat

D'ough's picture
D'ough

It's Bank Holiday Monday here in the UK, so I've taken the opportunity to bake a Champlain boule. First S&F coming up. Photos when it's done. Fingers crossed.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have been testing a new flour called Morbread. This flour has far surpassed any flour that I have tried. Next I plan to compare Central Milling flours.

I baked the Champlain and didn’t stress over the details.

Morbread gave the bread a huge rise with nice open crumb.

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

The flour you use seems to make such a difference. lovely

Leslie

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

That loaf hit the lid of whatever you baked it in. Look at that flat top! Can’t get any better than that! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I baked in a large oval Graniteware roaster. I wonder how high it would have risen with a taller cover?

It is the flour, not my technique. I was way less careful with this Champlain than all my other bakes. In the next few days I hope to compare the Morbread with Central Millings Artisan Baker’s Craft Plus flour and T70. Before Morbread I thought King Arthur was the best. KA is a good flour, but it can’t begin to compete with Morbread. At least in every test I’ve run so far. The. Shipping is high, but I have no plans to quit ordering it. It cost me $73 for a 50# bag, delivered. It is affordable in bulk.

I just paid $45 for 15# (delivered) from Central Milling for testing. How great it is for those who have top flour available in their local stores!

Dan

jmoore's picture
jmoore

I think it's interesting that you find the flour has a significant effect. I've found this to be the case in my tests when comparing freshly milled/sifted to KA, but I haven't compare to any other commercial flours other than KA. In Trevor's book, he mentioned that many home bakers go out in search of the perfect flour, but that the flour choice doesn't really matter-- or something to that effect. I think he uses KA for most of his breads, and he gets a gorgeous open crumb. Perhaps it's mostly about getting the right consistency (using hydration, autolyse, etc) for a given flour than the flour itself? Or it could be the flour. I don't know.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I know for sure that for the bread I’ve been testing FLOUR MAKES A DIFFERENCE. I’ve done so much testing (probably 20 or more loaves) on this one particular bread that I’m positive about that. Trevor tried Central Milling flour and wrote how much he liked it. I’m not trying to insinuate that a “special” flour will make a mediocre baker great. I am an obsessive type, so small details matter to me. I see excellent bakers that bake phenomenal breads using very common, universally available flours. Alan, aka Alfonso is one that comes to mind.

Actually, I baked 2 different breads with Morbread. My test bakes where a sourdough that fermented 18 - 20 hours at 77F. Any flour is subject to degredation on that bake, but Morbread absolutely made the difference between success and failure. The Champlain pictured above hit the top of the roaster. I can’t ever remembering that happen for me before.

What were your finding for the freshly milled/sifted vs, KA? I am interested in learning.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Amazing looking and it hit the roof Dan! I have not made a Champlain for a while and now I think I must go and bake another one soon....great baking! Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m getting better. 

I think that proofing the dough for 2 hours @ room temp before retarding in the refrigerator is responsible for the open crumb. I’ll have to try this again to confirm.

 

Dan

 

Ru007's picture
Ru007

That is one good looking loaf! The crumb is wonderful. 

I'm also playing around with how long I let my shaped loaves proof at room temp before baking. Do you find that your loaves don't really do much in the fridge overnight? 

I haven't tried the Champlain sourdough yet, I think I'll give it a go for my next bake :)

Well done Dan! 

Ru

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ru, my loaves don’t rise much, if at all, in the refrigerator. I think the temperature of the refrigerator is the key. Mine is around 38F, but if it was 40 or higher I think the dough would rise during refrigeration.

As far as room temp proof, I tend to err on under proofing since it is safer. I use the finger poke test.

I have struggled to get consistent large holed open crumb.

Dan

 

 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

maybe a short bench proof before retard is the elusive something to give you this type of crumb.   it looks so lovely and delicate! 

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Leslie, aren’t you going straight into the frig after shaping?

i pushed the hydration to 73%, but I struggle with handling and shaping. Oh, I did do an overnight premix, but I did use the Morbread flour, which handles fermentation better than anything else I know of.

I wished I could bake with you and Kat. That way I could learn your secrets :-)

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

with some bench time first.  but first I will check my fridge is cold enough!

oh yeah! a bake together would be awesome indeed! I would love that as we would all learn so much!

Leslie

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

be very happy with that result!!!  I am away again and not baking and just looking at this lovely bread makes me want to go straight home to bake again!!!!!  I have the opposite situation that I have an unpredictable and too warm fridge in UK and really have to watch not to overproof in the fridge......I am waiting to hear from a friend to potentially get a used 'wine cooler' and then I can be much more precise about the temperatures during retarding. I had a number of loaves go too in the fridge  especially as we have hot and warm weather in UK now.... Love to catch up when I am back home....and what a lovely, beautiful loaf Dan!   Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Kat, before getting a wine cooler, please check to see how low the temperatures go. I don’t think a wine cooler gets cold enough. I’m thinking around 38-39F in order to be cold enough to retard doughs without having them ferment too much.

Dan

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

different options at the moment. I also might go the Maurizio route  with rebuilding a freezer but happened then to speak to my friend who spoke about the wine cooler and so I am looking into it...I did have quite good results in my fridge at around 5C which is 41F but the problem is that it fluctuates too much up and down......it is a great looking fridge BUT totally useless! :D

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Time to re-visit baking a Champlain without hydration crutches and used 'just' the 304g water as in Trevor's formula.

Very, very happy with what I have learnt and whilst not super open crumb one might say...I am very happy and grateful for Trevor's book that helped me.getting better with my baking...  Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your bread is a looker. You could definitely sell bread like that. As far as the crumb, don’t you think this is what the public would choose? The crumb is open and the bread is lighting airy.

Dan

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Thank you Dan and it is interesting what people say when they receive a loaf....Firstly there seems to be the 'dark' camp v. 'light camp' and it makes me smile when I get the 'that looks a bit burned' comment about the 'darker' ear....

Two teenagers in the house today summed it up to 'lighter bread' for breakfast with jam and 'darker' for salami, salmon and cheesy toppings....! I like both really......

Then, the open crumb....oh it makes me laugh....As a baker I really want it to be part of my 'repertoire' but in the end I want to bake what people also like to eat and that may differ and what people like or not.....I have been so nosy going into SD bakeries locally and looking at what is on offer as they need to 'survive' selling their bread running this with real financial pressure. I plan a trip to London this weekend and might include a bakery or two teenagers allowing as well as get that flour that Abe recommended in Soho........ :D

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

So, what type of breads and crumb are the bakeries putting out?

Ru007's picture
Ru007

this is the type of crumb the public (me included) would choose. And if Kat is selling bread, I'm right behind you in that line Dan! 

Ru

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I have no immediate plans but who knows what lies in the future! Kat

syros's picture
syros

Hi Everyone, 

I have missed this thread as I haven't been baking so much lately and just returned to my roots, ha ha! Lovely baking everyone. Everyone's loaves look so delicious. Have to think about the Champlain Bread again.

Dan, I find with higher hydration that if I do about 3 sets of S & F's every 15 minutes, then another two or three about 30 minutes apart, I can handle the higher hydration. But I do several turns each time with the first 3 sets. The pre-shaping is my nemesis, but somehow I manage to get the dough shaped and in the banneton. Your bread looks fantastic - so whatever you just did, worked. Maurizio also likes Central Milling Flour. 

Great baking!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I missed this thread too...we need to think seriously about another community bake...maybe if we all think about a loaf that we would like to try? Any ideas? Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’ve been ready for a new community bake for months. Obviously we’ll need to start a new thread, this one is a beast :)

Dan

syros's picture
syros

Dan, I couldn’t agree more - this thread is too much to handle! Let’s put our heads together. I already posted an idea to Kat and this thread. Let me know what you think!

syros's picture
syros

Hi Kat,

I’m in the process of making the 20% Kamut bread from Breadtopia’s site. I’ve made it a couple of times with great results. The first time I made it I used the whole grain Kamut flour but I have been able to find the white Kamut which I prefer.  There are 3 recipes - 100%, 40% or 20% Kamut. Take a look and let me know. 

There are other recipes out there we could try. Maurizio has a couple - so let’s brainstorm. Another community bake would be fantastic. A new post and tons of information to be had! I’ll post photos of mine when it’s ready.

Sharon

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I had given up on this formula as I just could not get good volume and was very disappointed.  However, recent success doing 150-200 slap and folds at the start of the fermentation gave me confidence to have another try.

I remade a  previous bake.  This time I did 200 slap and folds followed by 4 sets of coil folds in the first 2 hours and 2 folds in the next 2 hours.  It is winter so my dough is not quite as quick as during the summer, root temperature was probably about 21 - 22 deg C. It was preshaped, rested 30 minutes, shaped and retarded overnight.  Baked at the same time as Maurizio's 50:50 wholewheat bread.

I found the dough really easy to handle, not overly sticky.  I had dropped hydration to 74% last time due to my struggles to get a good loaf so stuck to that for this bake.

Crumb shot later when I slice it for freezing.

Next time I will up the hydration and see how it goes.  I just cannot believe what a difference doing so many slap and folds makes. For me it is a real light bulb moment.

Leslie

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

This is a higher hydration than the Champlain formulae and much higher ratios of spelt and rye so I am thrilled to have finally got such a great loaf for this formula. 

Crumb shot.

Next time I will definitely up the hydration as despite the openness this still feels a bit heavy.  But I am really really happy

Leslie

The Fermentator's picture
The Fermentator

Hello friends, 

I finally tried my hand at Trevor's Champlain, too. 

As always, your feedback is much appreciated.

Happy baking and oven-warm wishes from Germany,

-Nils

 

Here's what I CHANGED as compared to Trevor's original recipe:

  1. FLOUR: Whole wheat instead of spelt. Ratios remain the same.
  2. AUTOLYSE: mere 1:15 hrs of autolyse instead of overnight.
  3. LEVAIN: 30g of Whole Rye Starter instead of 50g AP (my rye starter is quite vigorous plus it was a HOT day here in Germany)
  4. MIX METHOD: two rounds of gentle Rubaud in order to develop gluten strength (esp. since I didn't do the overnight autolyse, see above)
  5. FINAL PROOF: 13hrs final proof in fridge instead of shorter proof @ room temp.

NUMBERS:

  • 425g AP
  • 50g WW
  • 10g Whole Rye
  • 30g Whole Rye Starter @ 100%
  • 335g water (@ 35.5°C / 96°F)
  • 10g fine sea salt

 

  • Total hydration of 70% (so no changes there)
  • Total flour ratios: 85% AP / 10% WW / 5% Whole Rye (no changes either)
  • 2.0% salt
  • ~30% rise @ bulk fermentation
  • Room temp: ~26°C / 79°F
  • Fridge temp: ~6.5-8.0°C / 43.7-46.4°F
  • hourly folds (some of them coil folds, just for the fun of it)

COMMENTS:

  • I set some of the dough aside in a shot glass which was invaluable for keeping track of proof progress during bulk. Helped me become less of a nervous wreck throughout the day, HA! 
  • I think the crumb could be more open still. So next time I might try to push the envelope on the final proof. 16hrs instead of 13hrs in the fridge?

What are your guys' and gals' thoughts?

Last but not least, here are some pictures:

Dough after 2nd or 3rd fold

dough after later (coil) fold

My bulk-o-meter (looking for a 30% rise during bulk for this one)

dough at the end of bulk (~6 1/2 hrs)

right after pre-shape

before final proof

AFTER final proof (13hrs in the fridge)

first half didn't last long ;-)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hi Nils, nice writeup! Your photography is super nice.

If more open crumb is something you like, less fermentation as opposed to more will help. The small bubbles in your crumb are an indication of over proof. Under proofed crumb generally has some very large holes, but mostly tight bubbles. 

You wrote, 

  • Room temp: ~26°C / 79°F
  • Fridge temp: ~6.5-8.0°C / 43.7-46.4°F

How long did you BF at room temp?

Your fridge temp is quite a bite warmer than those in the states. At 37-38F dough doesn’t rise much and most of the time not at all. At ~43-46 you can expect rising do to slightly active fermentation.

If you adjust your fermentation duration, your crumb should be more open.

Thanks for posting...

Danny

The Fermentator's picture
The Fermentator

Hi Dan,

thank you so much for your nice comments. 

As for your question: Bulk fermentation was 6:00 hrs (or 6:35 if you consider mixing the starting point of BF). Room temp. was ~26°C / 79°F.

If you had to guess, when would you say overproof occurred - during the bulk stage or later in the fridge? 

As for fridge temperatures I didn't think mine would be much of a problem (@ ~6.5-8.0°C / 43.7-46.4°F) after learning in Vanessa Kimbell's book ("The Sourdough School") that her fridge runs at 8-9°C /46-48°F...And she cold retards for up to 16-24hrs. What am I not seeing?

Can't wait to hear your thoughts.

Boy, it is HOT here in Germany, I feel like I'm about to overproof myself...

Thanks again,

-Nils

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It would be difficult to know for sure at which stage the dough overfermented. But if I was to venture a guess I’d say during retardation. Because you said that the BF was stopped once the dough rose by 30%. You can definitely retard at temps warmer than 38F, just know that the dough will continue to grow. At 37-39F no growth, but 41F and above the dough will rise a varying degrees depending upon the temp. I have a designated retarder and have retarded at temps as high as 65F, but the dough rose (continued active fermentation).

Next time you might experiment with a 30% increase at BF then divide, shape, proof at room temp and then bake. The results may be informative.

Nils, if pizza interest you, we are featuring a Community Bake right now. You are most welcomed to join if you wish. Check it out. 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60568/community-bake-pizza

Danny

The Fermentator's picture
The Fermentator

Hi Danny,

I think your assessment was spot-on: I did overproof the loaf. Just gave the Champlain another try with an even shorter bulk which definitely was an improvement, both in terms of handling / shaping and crumb structure. Also, I lowered the temperature of my fridge...just a nudge...and gave the loaf a 13 hour final proof (exactly as last time).

Really like how it came out. What do you think? Where do you see room for improvement?

PS: It tasted delicious. My wife is starting to blame me for putting on weight, so I'm clearly on the right track. Ha.

-Nils

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

This loaf looks great too me. But if you wanted to tweak your results a bite, you could try reducing either the BF and/or the retardation a little more. BUT, your present bake looks very good to me.

Your shaping looks super nice to me. The shape of the slice pizza s high in relationship to its width.

The Fermentator's picture
The Fermentator

Danny, I tried the recipe again with shorter bulk and it looks like it's getting there. Oven spring was better than ever and the crumb looks improved, too. Will keep experimenting.

Thanks again.

-Nils

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Much better bloom and crumb.

It would be a learning exercise to keep reducing the fermentation until you go too far. Once you over do it, you’ll be able to go back to the last bake and know that you have it dialed in.

It is commonly accepted that the best way to tweak a bread is to change only one variable at a time.

Dan 

MatheusTrein's picture
MatheusTrein

Sorry to be commenting on something old. But this post should never die. I congratulate Dan on this idea, and congratulate everyone who participated. An honor to have access.
Dan, to summarize, did the best breads come out with a little autolysis out of the fridge and with a smaller increase in bulk fermentation? Would you have anything else to add?

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