The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Rising bread only in the fridge?

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

Rising bread only in the fridge?

Hello everyone, I'm a first time poster, and a rather incompetent bread baker!  I've probably made dozens of loaves with my bread machine over the years, but I've never been happy with them.  Most of my problems are due to the bread machine itself, but one isn't -- I can't keep the dough warm enough for it to rise.  When I set my bread machine to heat during the rise cycle it rose fine, but I have more issues with it than just that one.

Still, since I'm eating bread again I want to try making it again, my current plan is to use my stand mixer to knead the dough, and then let it go through both rising cycles in the fridge.  Since I've never managed to successfully compensate for the ambient temperature the fridge seems like a perfect solution, the temperature during rising will be consistent and I might stand a chance of finding a recipe / system for making bread that simply works.

My question is do I actually have a chance of doing this and coming out of it with a decent loaf of bread?  I did a search but I couldn't find anyone in this exact situation, everyone seems to only do the first or second rise cycle (fermenting, proofing??) in the fridge, not both.  I want to make rye bread for sandwiches, with whole wheat flour and wheat gluten to help it rise, but I haven't picked out a recipe yet.  Would I have better luck with a different type of bread?  Or quick rise yeast?  Or should I scrap this insanity and make tortilla wraps instead??

Any advice would be welcome!

Stevo's picture
Stevo

I noticed that there had been no replies to your question so I thought I'd give it a go. My first thought was, why do you want to do this? Using the fridge slows things down and that is often used to add flavour. However, my understanding is also that things can go on too long and gluten can start to degrade.

I don't know where you live, but here in the North of England, my kitchen temp can vary from colder than the fridge to sauna like, sometimes in the same day! To adjust my rise times according to my daily schedule and ambient temperature I use a trial and error mix of: warmer/cooler water in the dough, more or less yeast (or starter), fridge or oven with just the light on.

I can sometimes do a first rise in the evening then shape into a basket and leave overnight in the fridge or do a first rise overnight in the fridge and a room (or oven with light on) temperature rise in the morning or any variation in between. I sometimes get it wrong and wake up to a beast that has taken over my fridge or sit watching a stubborn loaf that should have risen and been baked by now when I have to go out.

If your main issue is keeping the dough warm enough then warm water and something like the oven with the light on should help.

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

The main reason is because the fridge is the only place in the house with a stable temperature, I wanted to work out a system that would work reliably year round, but if the gluten will start to degrade that's out.  At least now I know.

I'm Canadian, I bet I have you beat with the temperature swings!  Room temperature for me is between 15 / 59 in the winter and 30 / 86 in the summer.  Believe me, I've tried all of those things, the one and only thing that reliably works is to use my bread machine's whole wheat setting, which heats the machine and sends the cost of making a loaf through the roof. 

I've tried warming the bread machine pan, used the hottest water I can get from the tap, the oven light isn't warm enough to help, the water heater is exposed to the winter air, the furnace air vents get too hot, the cabinets above the fridge have sun shining directly on them . . . I mean, I can't even keep a plate of food warm in the time it takes me to walk from the stove to the table, even if I warm the plate before putting anything in it, and I've been working on that all winter.  I just don't know what else I can try.

That's my biggest fear, I don't want to end up having to throw out loaves because I got the timing and / or temperature wrong and things went haywire, I want to find a system that will work year round, I don't have the money to be throwing out food.  If even using the fridge doesn't make it reliably work then I really don't know what to do.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Either bulk ferment or final proof in the fridge but don't do both.

'Artisan bread in 5 minutes a day' would suit you. Look it up.

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

Not what I wanted to hear, but at least now I know!

I looked it up but I'm not sure if I'm finding the right recipe, it looks like a typical bread recipe, nothing special?  It still needs yeast and we're mortal enemies?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Unless you go down the soda bread route. 

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

Fair enough, I'm just curious why you thought the artisan bread would work better for me?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Just mix, allow to rise and refrigerate. The longer it stays in the fridge the more flavour it develops. There are many recipes in that book not just plain flour and water. After a few days in the fridge the flavour is awesome. Just a quick shape, final proof and bake. 

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

Sounds like it would be pretty tasty!  Still, my problem is getting the bread to rise reliably in the first place.  That's the only reason I wanted to use the fridge, for the stable temperature, I thought it would be slow but reliable.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

... it sounds like your kitchen temps are similar to mine here in Calgary, and the massive and random changes in barometric pressure here impact the rise of dough as well.

I have no experience at all with bread machines or commercial yeasted breads, since I started with and am only using my own rye sourdough starter.  My most common weekly loaf is a 60% whole grain, with usually 20% whole spelt, 20-30% whole hard red wheat, 10-20% whole rye, and the rest Roger's Unbleached All Purpose with no additives.  I prefer to do the bulk ferment at "room temperature" and proof overnight in the fridge. 

What works for me for the "room temperature" bulk ferment is to use this timing chart to match what my current kitchen temp is: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5381/sourdough-rise-time-table (the original post) or http://www.wraithnj.com/breadpics/rise_time_table/bread_model_bwraith.htm (for the chart).  It is explained best in the comments section of the original post.  I make sure that I'm home for the ferment though, so that I can respond to the dough and not the clock or the "planned" timing!

If I want it to be faster or I want to develop the sour flavour more by fermenting at a higher temperature, then I either use my microwave oven (not turned on!) or an Igloo cooler with a 4-cup measure of steaming hot water in with my bulk ferment container, and check / reheat the water every 90-120 minutes.  If the kitchen is too hot, then I use the cooler with either one or two freezer packs (depending on just how much cooling I want).

The main thing that I notice with my recipe is that I really don't want it to double in volume during the bulk ferment (no matter what any recipe or instruction says).  With my mix of flours and my environment, it works out for the best if I go no more than a 50% volume increase (usually closer to 30%) and then carry on with pre-shaping, bench rest, final shape and then in to the fridge for final overnight proofing.  That proof doesn't come close to doubling either ---- and the one time that I let the bulk go to closer to double I ended up with an obviously over-fermented bake.

My understanding is that commercial yeast responds somewhat differently, but you should still be able to get a reasonable bulk ferment in either planning on it being a bit slower or quicker than the recipe states (depending on what time of year), or by using a good cooler with either hot water or cooling packs to better regulate where the temperature stays.  Keep in mind that going with higher percentages of whole grains will usually mean that you will want to keep the ferment / proof to less than "double" and just do some playing around to see what works best for your schedule.

Don't give up on the quest - it is definitely possible in our random climate to bake our own bread!  Good luck, and remember to have fun...

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

Thanks for the detailed message!  I never even thought about the barometric pressure changing enough to mess with things, it's usually listed on the weather web-sites, right?  Does it vary more on the prairies since you guys can get tornadoes and the like?  I'm on the other side of the Rockies.  :-)

That sounds like a pretty tasty loaf of bread!  What's the difference between yeast and sourdough starters?  It might be worth trying something different so long as I don't have to buy too much of it at once.  What's bulk fermenting?  Is that the proper term for the first rise?  I thought that was just fermenting but I'm not sure!

Oh man, I keep trying to read that chart but I think my head is going to explode!  I just can't make sense of it, even reading the post.  I mean, each temperature comes with four lines of numbers that I'm supposed to use to alter the recipe, but at the top of the first column there's six lines??  That doesn't make any sense?  How am I supposed to know what the four numbers mean?  Is the formatting messed up in my browser maybe?

I don't have a cooler and I can't use my microwave either, it has a hood range built in and the outside air blows into it.  But the cooler idea has me thinking, maybe a cooler half filled with water warmed a battery powered aquarium heater could maintain a stable temperature?  It would cost a lot of money to set up but depending on the heater maybe I could use it to make yogurt too.

Interesting, what happens if it's over-fermented?  Does it taste off?  I was dumping in piles of wheat gluten to get my whole wheat bread to double in size the last time I tried it and never really succeeded, it'd save a lot of money if I didn't need as much of it.

I might try again, I'm still not sure, the problem is that I don't want to drop over $100 on supplies considering the way things have gone in the past.  I don't even have a bread knife anymore, but I can use my Swiss Army knife hacksaw, works better than the bread knife ever did.  I wish I could, but I'm way past the point where making bread could ever be called fun without a healthy dose of sarcasm!

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

that the Artisan Bread in Five Minutes might be the perfect approach for you to use.  There even is a recipe that would likely be exactly what you are looking for in terms of flours that was tried by a member here recently (except he converted it to sourdough starter, which works differently than commercial yeast): http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/378519#comment-378519

If you check out the authors' website and YouTube ads for the book, you'll get a better idea of whether it will fit in with your needs.

Good luck!

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

That recipe looks perfect!  There's no margarine or molasses or anything like that, I could get almost everything from the bulk bins, and maybe I could even swap the caraway seeds for flax seeds.  Thank you!  :-)

I didn't realize it was an actual book, I thought it was just a single bread recipe, oops!  I'll go check it out but I think I'll probably end up making that one if I do this at all, I don't want to have to get molasses again.  It never seems to blend thoroughly, but all of the other rye recipes seem to have it.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

with the whole book, and do some checking around this website and any others that catch your eye!  I'd also suggest checking out any of the artisan bread or "no-knead" bread videos on You Tube.  Another recipe that you might like is one from the home page here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/rusticbread

The book(s) and websites will help explain the terminology of the "artisan" breads vs the machine loaves that you are used to.  The "artisan" style of home bread baking was established and popularized by professional bakers, so they used terms like "bulk ferment" (since the dough for multiple loaves was still all together in a "bulk" for what a home baker would call the "first rise"), and do their formulas (not recipes!) in terms of grams for each ingredient (it's always faster and more accurate to weigh things than to try and figure out volume measures like cups) and "baker's percentages" (where all other ingredients are listed as a percentage of the total flour, with flour being 100%). 

In a quick and not-completely-inaccurate summary, the commercial yeast that is used (either instant or active dry) is strictly a single strain of the yeast organism that feeds on the flour and expels gases that get caught in the gluten (protein) network of a developed dough and cause it to rise.  It is something that you purchase and store in the freezer, using a small quantity in each recipe.  A "sourdough" or "wild yeast" starter is one that you CAN purchase, but is something that you can actually grow for yourself.  There is always natural yeast living on the grains in your flours, along with other bacteria (LAB) that are useful in rising dough and in creating the sour tang of lactic and acetic acids. All it takes is time and feeding with fresh flour and water every day (the yeast and bacteria are alive and need to be fed) --- and once it is established, can even be kept in the fridge with no feeding for weeks on end.  The commercial yeast is far more predictable in terms of timing and dough response, but the sourdough has the more complex flavours from the additional bacteria.  Since you are just getting back in to baking again, then starting out with commercial yeast is going to have a smaller learning curve and you can always choose to get in to the sourdough thing later on.

As for the costs of baking - well, it depends on the style of breads that you enjoy, the quantity that you go through, and whether you get enough enjoyment out of it to justify some of the costs as "entertainment" or "hobby"!  If you're only baking one loaf every couple of weeks, then it would sure take a long time for the savings to cover off the cost --- but you will be eating a much higher quality of bread that you made yourself in the meantime.  The best thing, in my opinion, is that you get to pick and choose the ingredients to suit your preferences and tastes (so no need for things like molasses with rye bread if you don't want to add it).  To start off with really minimal investment, I am using:

- a cooler as a "proofing box" (I already owned a few, but something like this is more than adequate: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/coleman-poly-lite-cooler-63-can-0853435p.html#srp  A big mug or glass measuring cup with hot water or a baggie filled with ice-cubes will bring the temperature in the box up or down as needed (just keep checking the temp on the dough to see if more heat / cold is needed).

- an old enameled steel roaster as a "dutch oven" (to bake free-formed loaves in, instead of using a loaf pan --- and which has a lid that will hold in steam which is an essential element to the "artisan" style bake) just like this one but 30 or so years old: http://graniteware.com/product/covered-oval-roaster/  (basically, an actual dutch oven is great, or a cast iron combo cooker, or a roaster, or a cookie sheet or pizza stone and use a stainless steel bowl to cover it, or... you get the idea)

- a kitchen scale: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/starfrit-5-kg-digital-kitchen-scale-0424076p.html#srp that I picked up for $12 when it went on sale around Mother's Day a few years ago

- an instant read thermometer: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/accu-temp-instant-read-cooking-thermometer-0429126p.html#srp

- a clear plastic or glass, straight-sided container with a lid that is big enough to use for fermenting my largest dough quantity (clear to see what is going on with the dough, and straight-sided to get a better idea of volume increase) something like this: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/rubbermaid-easy-find-lid-14-cup-square-0428928p.html#srp

Basically, you should be able to get some really good loaves with minimal investment in equipment to start off with.  If you find that it is worthwhile to you after a bit of time, then more investments in either home-made equipment (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40377/homemade-proofing-box) or commercially made (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/folding-bread-proofer-and-slow-cooker?gclid=CLG3mdOEo9MCFUS2wAodWJoLZg&kwid=40936584687x45894150424x258097926 or https://www.amazon.com/Brod-Taylor-FP-105-Folding-Proofer/dp/B01MEEH0SE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1492142022&sr=8-3&keywords=dough+proofing+box) will make more sense.

There is a ton of info for you to explore, so just keep in mind that it's all about YOUR preferences and what is going to work in YOUR life (including the required use of dark sarcasm while dealing with the inevitable road blocks and not-really-disasters-cuz-it-still-tastes-good).

Cheers!

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

I'm a little wary of that book now though, they don't measure flour properly, the FAQ says to use the scoop method and that they don't weigh their flour, that makes it impossible to be sure I'm following the recipe properly.  Now I don't even know if I can use the one I was given, I have no idea how much flour I actually need.

Ah, that's what bulk fermenting means, make sense!  Sounds like what I'd want to do, I wouldn't want one big loaf, I'd rather have a bunch of little ones so the sandwiches would be smaller.

That's about how fast I'd use it up, I'd only be having one sandwich a day.  Honestly though I have never made a loaf of bread that was better than what I can buy.  Once I figured out I was using way too much flour and cut back it did taste better, to be fair, but it wasn't good enough to be worth the hassle, let alone compare to the bread I can get at the store.

Does that steel roaster help keep the crust soft?  That's the only possible advantage I see to making my own bread at this point, if I could find make bread with no crust at all that'd be heaven.  (I actually like the crust, but it really hurts my jaw.)

Do I really need a thermometer?  I kept buying them but when I try to wash them they get waterlogged and I ruin them, every single time, so I gave up on them.

Yeah, I still haven't even decided if making bread is even the right move to be making here.  Sandwiches stop being a quick and easy meal if I have to make the bread, and if I have to buy more equipment it defeats the purpose of trying to save money, it'd take nearly 9 months for me to break even.  I could save the same amount of money by simply making peanut butter honey sandwiches instead of cheese and butter . . . which would pay for the cost of the new supplies, I suppose!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)
TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

Thanks for the link!  Interesting, they say 140 grams of flour per cup versus the 120 it actually is, works out to an extra 16% or so.  I wonder if I can use that to work out the weights for the rye recipe?  Hmmm . . .

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Will have different weights. When looking for conversions you'll always will get slightly different answers from volume to weight. Depending on how you're measuring when using volume. You can look around and go for the halfway mark of differing answers. Also do not forget that flour can have a range of hydration before it gets too low or too high so it doesn't mean it won't work if slightly off. And don't forget that "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day" is a very forgiving technique as it's no knead and minimal handling. 

Here is another good site for conversions http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/flour_volume_weight.html

TheNightTerror's picture
TheNightTerror

I know the different flours have different weights, but I thought that since the weight they give for one type of flour is 16% higher than it should be, maybe I can scale up the weights of the other flours by that much as well to make sure I'm using enough?  For example, if a cup of rye flour should weigh 102 grams, I'd scale it up to 118 or so.

Is there a rule of thumb for how long to bake the artisan breads?  I've been looking around but I haven't really been able to find out any more information for how long to let it rise and how to bake it, I guess that's in the book?

Thanks for the link!  I'll have to add the proper weights for the flours to the recipe I wrote down.

macette's picture
macette

i wanted to do the same thing with white bread, because I would need to get up to early to get a loaf for lunch. So I made my loaf in the evening the night before oiled the dough and put in a tub for the first rise in the fridge. Worked wonderfully took out the next morning flattened and shaped left to rise hour and half then baked ....fantastic very happy...