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Tips for 100% whole wheat sourdough bread

ytm's picture
ytm

Tips for 100% whole wheat sourdough bread

 Hi everyone, new baker here.
Due to an unfortunate injury that left me home for a while, i decided to take up bread baking a few weeks ago, and I must say that I'm hooked. Currently, I mostly rely on Reinhart's whole grain breads book, which is great. I was able to bake some nice loaves (In my opinion, at least) without much fuss.

In order to make things a little bit more interesting, I now wish to learn how to bake 100% whole wheat sourdough breads. I'm now using Reinhart's whole wheat hearth bread recipe as a reference, only without any commercial yeast, which is apparently a little bit more challenging, as my first attempt resulted in a pancake. In my second attempt, I refrigerated the dough once placing it in the basket for about 16 hours, as I saw suggested in several places, and it did provide a very nice oven spring, but the resulting texture was somewhat more dense than the pancake version (which was proofed in room temp only).

As you can see, I might have went a little overboard with the scoring.

 

I'd love to get tips for obtaining a less dense texture.

 

FIY, using the starter method from Reinhart's book.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You may find something(s) in THIS LINK.

Whenever I read about a baker learning to bake 100% whole wheat the book,THIS BOOK comes to mind. Ther is a chapter called, “A Loaf for Learning” that is worth the price of the whole book. IMO, it is the very best for bakers new to 100% whole wheat. Her teaching is more basic that Reinhart. She uses yeast, but SD can easily be substituted. The real value in that chapter is the detail she goes into about her method and process for making the bread.

It is extremely important to fully develop the gluten on whole wheat in order to get the lightest loaf.

ytm's picture
ytm

You may find something(s) in THIS LINK.

Whenever I read about a baker learning to bake 100% whole wheat the book,THIS BOOK comes to mind. Ther is a chapter called, “A Loaf for Learning” that is worth the price of the whole book. IMO, it is the very best for bakers new to 100% whole wheat. Her teaching is more basic that Reinhart. She uses yeast, but SD can easily be substituted. The real value in that chapter is the detail she goes into about her method and process for making the bread.

It is extremely important to fully develop the gluten on whole wheat in order to get the lightest loaf.

Thank you for the links. I did buy her book, as it seems a favorite in here, though I probably won't '600-stroke' the dough, but split the recipes into soaker & levain, as Reinhart suggests, so that I'd only have to knead for around 5+/- minutes total. In any case, I didn't read much of the book yet, as I'm not done with Reinhart's recipes, but I guess I should go over this chapter, as I probably lack a lot of basic info.

Regarding gluten development, the only indication a noob baker like me can use, is the window pane test, though I guess that with time I will hopefully get a better intuition with regards to the state of the dough by things like smoothness or how tacky it feels.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Welcome to TFL.

That is a nice loaf. Better than most of mine.

I have Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads Book too. What page #/formula are you working from?

And what did you do that wasn't exactly-exactly as per the formula? (We all make minor or major changes due to different ingredients, equipment, and available time and schedule.)

If you're going with a self-designed formula, please give it in exacting detail.

I've never gotten a decent 100% WW loaf. My good one's are at least 10% bread flour.

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Though, something  looks off with the bread crust. Either you're using a gas oven, or a convection oven, or you are outside the US and are not using North American flour.  Reinhart's formulas are designed with high protein North American flour in mind.

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Please let your potential helpers know where you are, and what brand/type of flour you are using.

And what are all your oven details?  Gas, electric, electric with convection/fan, and if there's a fan, did you use it.  Where the heating elements are, top/bottom/back wall, and which elements were used.  please be specific, as saying merely "bake mode" doesn't paint the full picture.

Did you use an enclosed baking vessel? If so, please describe.

If you baked openly on a stone or sheet,  how did you steam the oven?  Where was the steam pan, was it pre-heated, how much water did you use, when did you add the water, and was it right out of the tap or did you pre-boil the water?

ytm's picture
ytm
Welcome to TFL.

That is a nice loaf. Better than most of mine.

Thank you.

 

I have Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads Book too. What page #/formula are you working from?

Regarding pages, it's kind of tricky, since the kindle version doesn't display those, but I've used the exact recipe for wild yeast starter, letting it ferment for 4 hours, and the recipe for Whole Wheat Hearth Bread, which appears in the beginning of the 'Hearth Breads' chapter

 

And what did you do that wasn't exactly-exactly as per the formula? (We all make minor or major changes due to different ingredients, equipment, and available time and schedule.)

If you're going with a self-designed formula, please give it in exacting detail.

The differences were in withholding the commercial yeast, performing bulk fermentation for 6 hours, and placing the dough in fridge once I moved it to the proofing basket, for 16 hours.

 

Though, something  looks off with the bread crust. Either you're using a gas oven, or a convection oven, or you are outside the US and are not using North American flour.  Reinhart's formulas are designed with high protein North American flour in mind.

Please let your potential helpers know where you are, and what brand/type of flour you are using.

I guess I'm not experienced or discerning enough to tell if there's an issue by the looks of the crust, but I did neglect to spray water on the dough prior to baking, and may have under-baked the bread a little (thought I do think I hear a hollow sound when thumping the bottom in the end), as I accidentally used the same timing that I'm using for room temperature dough.

I'm outside North America, and the supplier I buy from doesn't specify a single origin for its wheat, but according to their website, I think that most if not all of their grain is sourced from there. In any case, the flour bag states that it contains 13% protein.

 

And what are all your oven details?  Gas, electric, electric with convection/fan, and if there's a fan, did you use it.  Where the heating elements are, top/bottom/back wall, and which elements were used.  please be specific, as saying merely "bake mode" doesn't paint the full picture.

I have the option to use convection, though I didn't use it, only the top and bottom heating elements.

 

Did you use an enclosed baking vessel? If so, please describe.

I baked openly during the steam phase (first 20 minutes), and then covered the top with tin foil for the rest of the time (25 minutes).

 

If you baked openly on a stone or sheet,  how did you steam the oven?  Where was the steam pan, was it pre-heated, how much water did you use, when did you add the water, and was it right out of the tap or did you pre-boil the water?

I baked on top of a baking stone, where the dough was placed on a parchment paper, which was pulled out after the steam phase. I used a hot pan in which I boiled water and had 2 kitchen towels in it, placed it in the oven right after boiling. Didn't measure the amount of water, but I removed the pan after 20 minutes.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Thanks for the additional details.

TFL has users from all over the world, EU, UK, AU, NZ, South Africa, Mexico, Indonesia, Philppines.

I'm sure one of them will chime in, maybe having direct experience with the brand/type of flour that you are using.  Or we could personally invite them via PM if they have email notificaions turned on.

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Maybe I was not clear enough or specific  enough about how wheat from different parts of the world needs to be handled differently. Almost every US formula would need to be adjusted for use with Non-North-America  wheat. Different parts of the world grow different strains of wheat.

You say your wheat is likely 13% protein. But not all protein is equal. And... Protein percent is just how American wheat specs are expressed. It is not a comprehensive enough spec to be applied to non-North-American wheat.  

Moreover, if the 13% protein is a European figure, they measure on a  _dry_ basis, not a 14% moisture basis as in the US system. 13% European would equate to a 10.9% US, which is kind of low for whole wheat flour.

And if you're in India, then all bets are off, as Indian wheat is not so great for loaf style breads, though it is excellent for flat-breads. (I recently made some yeasted tortillas with Sharbati.)

Hence, anyone who can help will still want to know: what country/brand/type of flour are you using?  I think that will be key to making the adjustments from a pretty good loaf to an excellent loaf.

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PS. Your baking  temperatures would be good to know, too.

ytm's picture
ytm

TFL has users from all over the world, EU, UK, AU, NZ, South Africa, Mexico, Indonesia, Philppines.

I'm sure one of them will chime in, maybe having direct experience with the brand/type of flour that you are using.  Or we could personally invite them via PM if they have email notificaions turned on.

I'm from Israel, so it would be nice if anyone from there could pitch in.

 

Maybe I was not clear enough or specific  enough about how wheat from different parts of the world needs to be handled differently. Almost every US formula would need to be adjusted for use with Non-North-America  wheat. Different parts of the world grow different strains of wheat.

You say your wheat is likely 13% protein. But not all protein is equal. And... Protein percent is just how American wheat specs are expressed. It is not a comprehensive enough spec to be applied to non-North-American wheat.  

Moreover, if the 13% protein is a European figure, they measure on a  _dry_ basis, not a 14% moisture basis as in the US system. 13% European would equate to a 10.9% US, which is kind of low for whole wheat flour.

Hence, anyone who can help will still want to know: what country/brand/type of flour are you using?  I think that will be key to making the adjustments from a pretty good loaf to an excellent loaf.

I guess this would only be useful for Israelis, but I mostly use Stybel whole wheat flour (No. 6), but in this instance I ran out, and had to use a substitute from a local store (Tachanot Israeliot), but I can't say I noticed in a big difference between them.

 

PS. Your baking  temperatures would be good to know, too.

Preheated the oven to 250c for an hour, then lowered to 230c after inserting the steam pan and the dough.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

 You can pick up some hints for low protein flour from this thread:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67524/loaf-cracking-outside-score

Generally, lower protein flour requires a longer autolyse and/or more kneading.  Or a formula that was designed for a lower protein flour.

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Your loaf may also have been over-steamed. Too much water/steam also cools the oven. 1 cup (240 ml) of boiling water is usually sufficient in a range-type oven. 1/2 cup (120 ml) for an in-the-wall type oven.

Placing the steam tray under the baking stone, and using too much water (more than 1/2 or 1 cup) cools the stone when 100 C steam rises and hits the 220-250 C stone.

Eventually the steam gets hotter than 100 C and turns invisible. That is called "super-heated" steam. (Steam that you can see is 100 C, and is called "wet steam".) And being invisible, fools non-engineers into thinking the steam totally escaped the oven.

Also, after removing steam, there is usually no need to tent the loaf, unless you can't turn off the upper element.

 

ytm's picture
ytm

 You can pick up some hints for low protein flour from this thread:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67524/loaf-cracking-outside-score

Generally, lower protein flour requires a longer autolyse and/or more kneading.  Or a formula that was designed for a lower protein flour.

Thanks, I'll look it over, though this is the first time I get such cracking, so perhaps I shouldn't draw any conclusions just yet. I did notice that some sourdough recipes require some S & F sets occasionally during bulk fermentation, something that i didn't do with commercial yeast (where I didn't have such cracking) and also skipped over in this instance, could it be the cause?

 

Placing the steam tray under the baking stone, and using too much water (more than 1/2 or 1 cup) cools the stone when 100 C steam rises and hits the 220-250 C stone.

Eventually the steam gets hotter than 100 C and turns invisible. That is called "super-heated" steam. (Steam that you can see is 100 C, and is called "wet steam".) And being invisible, fools non-engineers into thinking the steam totally escaped the oven.

Then I guess I'll adjust the amount of water and place the pan above the tray with the stone instead.

 

Also, after removing steam, there is usually no need to tent the loaf, unless you can't turn off the upper element.

The only reason I'm doing this is that it's my understand that it prevents the upper crust from darkening too much, so turning off the top element is preferable?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"The only reason I'm doing this is that it's my understand that it prevents the upper crust from darkening too much."

That's only needed if the upper element is on, or if you can't turn off convection/fan-mode.

Tenting protects the top crust from the higher radiant heat of the upper element, and protects the moving air from the fan from drying out the crust too soon.

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If at all possible, neither the upper element nor fan mode should be used to bake a bare loaf.   

In some ovens, the upper element still comes on intermittently during "maintenance heating."  But it should be such short duration, i would think it would not overdarken the crust. If it does, replace the empty steam pan without the towels back on the upper  rack to shield the loaf.

If you're not using the upper element, and the top crust darkens too much before the inner crumb is done, then your oven temp is too hot.

ytm's picture
ytm
That's only needed if the upper element is on, or if you can't turn off convection/fan-mode.

Tenting protects the top crust from the higher radiant heat of the upper element, and protects the moving air from the fan from drying out the crust too soon.

--

If at all possible, neither the upper element nor fan mode should be used to bake a bare loaf.

Good to know, I do have that option. Hopefully I'll be able to forgo steaming soon, as I intend to try baking with a terracotta pot as cover.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"Thanks, I'll look it over, though this is the first time I get such cracking, so perhaps I shouldn't draw any conclusions just yet. I did notice that some sourdough recipes require some S & F sets occasionally during bulk fermentation, something that i didn't do with commercial yeast (where I didn't have such cracking) and also skipped over in this instance, could it be the cause?"

On that other thread, according to mariana, who is the real expert, cracking can be a sign of low(er) protein flour that has not had gluten developed.  You said you switched flours for this bake, so that is another clue hinting at possible lower protein and lower gluten development.

Every little change has knock-on effects. And changing brands/types of flour is a big change.

ytm's picture
ytm

On that other thread, according to mariana, who is the real expert, cracking can be a sign of low(er) protein flour that has not had gluten developed.  You said you switched flours for this bake, so that is another clue hinting at possible lower protein and lower gluten development.

Every little change has knock-on effects. And changing brands/types of flour is a big change.

I guess it's very possible, though I'll probably only be able to isolate the exact reason if/when it recurs.

ytm's picture
ytm

So, here's another try.

This time I Kneaded for about 10 minutes total, in 2 sets of 5 minutes, and a 5 minute break in between. In addition, I performed 3 sets of 4 S & F during bulk fermentation, every 30 minutes.

It should be noted that the starter seemed more potent this time, having the mother renewed the same day, so bulk fermentation took about 4 hours instead of 6 this time.

Next, I preshaped the dough and let it rest for ~20 mins, then shaped a boule, transferred to the proofing basket for 30 mins, and finally placed in the fridge for 16 hours retard.

While baking, I used a cloche lid on top of the pizza stone for the first 20 mins, instead of steaming (Jumped the bullet and got an Emile Henry), spring was better than last time, for the last 30 mins, I baked without the lid, but did have to use tin foil, due to the fan always working. A previous attempt without it led to a burnt and hard as wood crust, like Pratchett's dwarven bread.
I still got some cracks, though less than last time, and since it did spring somewhat higher and still broke less, I guess there is some improvement.

My thoughts are that next time, I should knead more, perhaps considerably more, and add a couple more sets during buik fermentation.

Also, according to marianna, in the thread you've linked to, if I understood correctly, late addition of salt causes destruction of gluten, and is only needed for American flours which are too strong to be kneaded comfortably otherwise, so perhaps in my case, should I add all (9g instead of 4) of the salt to the soaker instead?

Additional suggestions would also be welcome.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Hey, that's better than mine. So congrats!

"for the last 30 mins, I baked without the lid, but did have to use tin foil, due to the fan always worked."

When you uncover the loaf, you have to turn off the upper heating element, and turn off the fan, and use bottom heat only.

"Upper heat"  and the fan (moving air)  kills (bare) loaves ! 

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The dullness of the crust still says that either the flour was too low in protein, or you need to develop the gluten more with a longer autolyse and/or much more kneading.

Remember, you are using low protein non-US flour in a recipe that was intended for high protein US flour, so serious adjustments must be made. Or else you would  need an Israeli recipe for the Israeli flour.

ytm's picture
ytm

Hey, that's better than mine. So congrats!

Thanks! I took some ideas and directions from The Perfect Loaf's 100% whole wheat sourdough recipe, and applied them on the recipe I'm using.

 

When you uncover the loaf, you have to turn off the upper heating element, and turn off the fan, and use bottom heat only.

"Upper heat"  and the fan (moving air)  kills (bare) loaves !

Apparently, I don't have a bottom heating element, I only noticed that after removing the bottom tray in order to make room for the cloche, I only have a drawing of a bottom line baking function which I assumed to use a lower element.
Also, going over all the baking functions, I didn't notice the fan turning off in any of them.

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

" I only have a drawing of a bottom line baking function ..."

 

That doesn't make sense to me. please explain.

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It is possible that your lower heating element is hidden under the floor of the oven. You'll need to check the owner's manual.

If you do not have the manual, empty your oven, set it to pre-heat, and after a minute put your hand near, not on, the floor of the oven and see if there is any heat coming from the bottom.

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If you do not have a lower heating element at all, you will likely need to keep the loaf covered for the whole bake. Maybe remove the cloche for a second to let steam escape, but re-cover immediately.

ytm's picture
ytm

It is possible that your lower heating element is hidden under the floor of the oven. You'll need to check the owner's manual.

You're right, apparently it's just hidden. In any case, I already tried to bake an uncovered loaf this way and it ended up with quite a dark and hardened crust, like described above.

I can try lowering the temps instead of covering for the rest of the bake, as you suggested earlier for the case of darkening with no upper heating element working, but I doubt I'm baking such a high heat, as I did measure the internal temp in the end of this last bake (the one in the pictures here), and it was ~96c after 50 minutes, which is well within acceptable range, to my knowledge.