The Fresh Loaf

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Hamelman Volkornbrot II - flaxseed, with adaptations by jl

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Hamelman Volkornbrot II - flaxseed, with adaptations by jl

This loaf rested 40 hours post-bake before cutting.

The recipe, for some reason, was far too much for my 9" pullman so I oiled and coated my 13" pullman with 50/50 whole rye flour/rye meal on the fly, and went with it.  This isn't the first time this has happened, when a recipe calls for a 9" pullman, so I wonder where I'm veering off.  Nevertheless, it fit really well in the 13".

Recipe was the Hamelman Flaxseed Volkornbrot, with the exception of utilizing the adaptations put in place by jl.  These included a larger pre-ferment flour (51%), no commercial yeast, and red rye malt at 3%.  It's not clear for me from jl's writeup when he put the red rye malt into play, but I put it in the final dough mixing; no scalds, only the two soakers per Hamelman's recipe for the rye chops and flaxseeds. 

I did do a light amount of water brushing and dusting with a mix again of whole rye flour and meal on the loaf top going into the proof.  jl made some kind comments on seeing a couple photos (some shown below), but noted the cracks along the side and end of the bread as shown may have indicated a mild underproofing.  I did the water/rye dusting, I now realize, off of Hamelman's comments on starter maintenance and German practice; not sure it's a good extrapolation here, for proofig.  With the dusting in place, I did see some cracking and so went with it (I'm a bit gun shy on overproofing, based on the previous couple batter-like doughs, badly overproofed.  Apples and oranges, too, because this is a much stiffer dough).

Pleased:  overall look.  Pleasant doming by end of proofing and, I think, preserved in the bake.  Don't know enough of ryes yet to know whether the crumb is visually "on," but looks pleasing to me.

Not so pleased: 

Texture by touch is very, very mildly tacky.  Not gummy, but tacky - again, very mild.  Internal temp by end of bake was 205 F, so not sure what's going on with this.

Flavor:  Underwhelmed, given expectations.  Thought in particular the red rye malt would add a significant quality I'd not experienced before, and all in all, more bland than I would have expected.  Would have also liked a tad more sour.  I went against instincts in pulling the rye starter at 12 hours when my normal is 14-16 per Hamelman and to be honest, it's development by taste and visuals was a bit "anemic."  No raw rye taste left, but not enough souring either, by my palate.  Pleasant enough, not great.  I'd give it about a 7.  Although interestingly, I taste it immediately after cutting, and as I've been typing and it's been "airing out" a bit, I swear I'm picking up more flavor.  Like a nice pinot or bracing cab, needing some oxidation?  Lol, I have to believe that's a bit too romantic, yes?! :)

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Not enough sour -> tacky crumb! That's why acidity is so important for rye. And same deal for flavour probably, needs more sourness. Or you can try increasing salt a little.

Red Rye Malt really should be treated with boiling water, if it's not going into scald, from what I know. Just use a portion of the recipe water, boil, pour over the malt and let cool down, then use in the recipe. I've only ever used it in proper scalds though.

And you are right, breads like this really do mature over the first few days and develop more complex flavour, and the reason for that is unknown to me. I think Danny brought up this question at some point, but I don't remember if there was a definitive answer...

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK, great.  Thanks for the excellent comments, Ilya.  I'll put them in place with the next bake.

Edit:  Are you looking to scald the malt, but bring it down quickly to within amylase range (beta, as I understand it; dextrins from alpha-centric saccharification make for an unpleasant bread), or it doesn't matter if these enzymes are denatured - we're not looking for the enzymatic starch hydrolysis, just some flavor quality from boiling water temp (don't know what that would be - do you?)?

Edit II:  These comments are really helpful, Ilya; I intend to move on to Salinātā rudzu rupjmaize and stay there for awhile.  I'll be dedicating it to an old friend I've not seen in a long time, a distinguished stage and film actress of Latvian-American heritage.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Red Rye malt is not diastatic, so it's not about anything enzymatic: I think it's just to extract the flavour. I'm not sure exactly. Maybe it extracts some acids form it too, since RRM is acidic...

Do you mean this recipe? With thermophilic fermentation?! I'd love to try that, but no way to maintain those temperature for a long time for me, can't really occupy the oven for so long... It is supposed to be amazing though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo7_nP6OhwA&list=PLrSg5cYpPtU-O5rZhBUELWr3665MIrQ3Q

If I were you, I would first repeat something Borodinksy-style until it works well, and then move on to that...

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yep, that's the bread.  It's canonical (literally) to the Latvian natural culture.  Some warm memories from long ago.

I used to do thermophilic starters for alpine cheesemaking - each season I began a "mother" and went through 20 or so generations to get it stabilized to the right organoleptics and consistent performance.

I used an immersible probe and a digital controller in a soup warmer, with the mason jar or whatever in the bath.  Worked well.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Wow nice, jealous of your setup! Good luck. That bread sure should be amazing.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks Ilya.  On y va!

Yippee's picture
Yippee

When making this bread before, I found that controlling the temperature of the starter was the trickiest.  If you have experience in making thermophilic starters and strictly follow Rus's procedures, you will find that this kind of bread is not difficult to make.

Yippee

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I don't suppose there are any commercial sources for the L. delbrueckii. Rus brot mentions using Bulgarian yogurt but says it just isn't as good.

Anyway, I don't have the means of maintaining those fermentation temperatures for the required time. I used digital temperature controllers all the time in my former life in the chemistry lab. We could heat stuff for hours in a flask with a heating mantle. Very convenient. There were even mantles available for beakers that probably would be good for this application. Unfortunately, the controller and a mantle would run several hundred dollars. 😢

I think I will heed the warning at the beginning of the video. I'm just not experienced enough to tackle that bread. There is a Riga Rye in The Rye Baker that looks a little easier, but I suspect it won't be as complex as this one.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Sliced the#$%^# out of my right index finger tonight, amateur move, so limited here.  Why would we need lab-level precision?  Bread is si much less demanding than cheese, and like I said, a simple soup warmer, a probe and a PID or something like it, good to go with perfect thermophilic cheese culture.   After all, that;s basically how home yogurt is made,  S, thermophilus, L. del. nulgaricus, etc. (sorry on typos_.  Did I miss something key?

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Ouch! I'm sorry to hear that about your finger. I hope it's not too bad.

The lab equipment is just a PID and a probe, but I suppose the tolerances are tighter than your average controller. I also think that the prices charged for lab equipment are artificially inflated just because they can.

I looked at the links you provided in your post below. That PID controller is a lot less expensive than I expected to pay for that kind of unit. What kind of soup warmer did you use? Would a slow cooker (aka CrockPot) work? The quantities for the L. delbrueckii culture don't have to be large, but I guess the scalds, pre-ferments dough, etc., are larger volume.

I just got an Instant Pot that has a yogurt function. The temperature for that setting is 36–43 °C, too low for the 50–52 °C specified in the RB video. I may use it for CLAS, though.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Riga bread is a very different beast (for example, uses light/white rye, not whole rye), also delicious. Interestingly, Rus Brot made a themophilic version of it too! https://youtu.be/gnJPJ3XUBrA

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Cool, thanks Ilya.  I know it's in the Ginsberg book too, haven't made it.  If I can at al, I prefer Baltic sources, even better, videos of ancient craft being passed down to younger folks I've been searching through Latvian souces but depend on Chrome translator. 

If interested, there's a cool shop devoted to Baltic things - named, curiously, The Baltic Shop.  I've exchanged with them a number of times, great people.  There was an Estonian bread baking book, looked beautiful:

- but unfortunately no longer in print, apparently.  Other cookbooks (other things generally), of Baltic origin. 

Also foods, including this bread, from the description, perhaps.  Always leery of buying bread exported here (that Borodinsky didn't help - I understand because of you that's a terrible representation, thanks), but perhaps the keeping qualities of these breads might be worth it (I'd love to try this bread to at least get an idea of the target).

Anyway, thanks.  Part of the consequence of slicing my finger last night is I spoiled my rye starter so started over, be ready in a week or so.  Bummer!  Hard to stop!  

Oh, and it's bad enoug to type at about 7 words a minute.  Even worse to hold your %^&^$ index finger off the keyboard.  I look ridiculous, lol.

(alcophile, thanks, btw).

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sorry to hear about your finger.  Starting over?  I think the fermenting starter would make quick food out of any blood you donated.  How much did you feed it?  Kimchee or fermented veggies often include meat in the form of fish, shrimp or oysters.  I wouldn't worry too much unless you changed the color of your starter with the addition.  In a few feeds, the traces are gone. Human cells are very peticular in their pH range and would certainly die in sourdough.

and...yes...I taste my mature starter to make sure it is sour enough before using it.  One of the tests it has to pass along with aroma.  If it ain't sour enough, wait.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Total bonehead move with a dough scraper, if you can believe it.  Embarrassing. 

Part of me is LMAO and part of me is fascinated at the logic of your explanation.  Awesome, actually, thanks mini.  You know what it is, honestly?  Having been a chef and having owned a restaurant, I must still have a deathly fear of being shut down.  Even if, as here, the regulatory authority summary closure order would consist of the word "ewwwwwww."

On tasting starters, smelling, I do as well.  One, I really love them.  I refresh the Rubaud levain and enjoy each refreshment, about every 5 hours, for the nuances of sweetness from the grains themselves coming through, even if the volume growth is really robust.  The difference from sweet to pleasant sour to too much bite.  The difference in tensile feel between a good point and the tacky, more shreddy feel when it's too late (for me.  I prefer a sweeter, more yeast-based wheat levain).

And on my liquid rye sour, there's that beautiful apple with the sourness that just really sends me.  Such a rich, complex sourness that more and more brings me to love rye.  I thought I'd never say this, but I can feel it's even starting to creep up on wheat, as a main baking passion. Seems so much there.  My wife gets grossed out by how much starter I enjoy "trying," but yes, I feel as you do.  

This time, I just regressed to "time," and not trusting the sensory testing as you say.  Thanks for the note because I needed a solid reminder.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when it comes thru.  Nutty, apple-fruity, sunbaked dry maple leaves...   ❤️ 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

 @Ilya: Unfortunately, I have never had the pleasure of tasting either bread. I did not realize the breads were so different as I only watched the first few minutes of the Rus Brot video of the Salinātā rudzu rupjmaize. It will be a while before my skills improve enough to tackle either bread.

@Gadjowheaty: Are there any Baltic bakeries in the Chicago or Milwaukee areas? I seem to recall a Baltic Bakery years ago in Chicago.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I've only tasted the Riga bread back in Russia, and haven't yet made it myself either. But I will try. I don't have white rye malt required for it, but I'll substitute it with barley malt, should be OK... It's a very famous bread, my mum particularly likes it, actually.

And the Salinātā rudzu rupjmaize is not something available in Russia afaik, and I've never tried it. That can only be made with thermophilic fermentation, and unfortunately I don't have a way to keep required temperatures for a long time.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

FWIW, Ilya and all, this is a plug-and-play solution dual-stage with waterproof probe.  I typically used it for beer fermentation and cellaring - it has a heating and cooling function and you can set several parameters including temp differential to more tightly or loosely dial in your temps.  My refrigerator("fermentation chamber/cellar") into the cooling plug, and typically a small desk fan heater, more than ample heating.  I made quality ales, lagers, and sakes (very precise time/temp parameters), outdoors, through N. Midwest US summers and winters - professional quality.  $36 USD and a cheap used refrigerator.

The unit could be used with a crock pot, or soup warmer to handle thermophilic fermentation with no problem.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I have exactly the same one, but the heating mat I have won't be able to reach 50 for thermophilic stuff (it's actually designed to shut off if it reaches 50 I think...). Works fine for 40, when insulated thoroughly. It's some heating mat for beer, actually. I don't have a crock pot or a soup warmer...

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yes, so just get a cheap used crockpot, put some water in it, and put your probe in the water (there are better probes for acidic environments; or you could just shrink-wrap the probe, if you want to place it directly in the sour)), place your starter/dough container in the pot, voila - yogurt maker.

I do as you do for my regular breads - except my mats are seedling germination mats.  Is yours a "fermwrap" or something like that?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I'll get something like that after I move in a few months, thanks!

I got  this one https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FKP51LN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_5HA9M08BBZQTGSZFCYZD?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Cool!  Mine looks like this - I put it in the bottom of our cooler, with a wire rack over the mat (so containers aren't sitting directly on the mat and getting local heating hot spots).  The probe is attached about 2/3 up the wall of the cooler.  Gives me quite a bit of space - enough for a 2K bulk ferment and 2 or 3 starters or levains in process.  I also put a large coffee cup of water directly on the mat to give at least a touch of humidity. 

I really want to build a decent proofing chamber, but with all the projects I've had going in our house at any one time over the years, I may well be committed to the doghouse, and the dog gets the bed (think - a full 6-draft keg array and two firkin/beer engines in our LR; 4 cheese "caves" in our BR; a sound "studio" when I was playing and recording gypsy swing.  A full basement cheese cave with a massive AC converted to cellar temps via a "coolbot."  The A/C kicked on, the entire neighborhood flickers dark).  Yep, my wife has every right to toss me out any time, lol).

*****

It needs it's own thread (I'll do it) and the timing is all wrong (should start in the early morning), but using the Inkbird and a small rice cooker we have, I started a thermophilic starter per Rus Brot's material, and plan on just going all the way with the Salinātā rudzu rupjmaize.  

One thing I'd forgotten about was heating overrun.  I once actually converted a food warmer:

To a cheese vat by disassembling it, pulling the wiring and hooking up a PID controller with SSR, for 4-gallon, mesophilic cheeses like tommes.  It worked OK, but getting the heating overrun within reasonable limits was not worth it - I just went back to manual heating, stirring, cutting curds, etc.  (Impossible to do anything but manual cooking of my large, 20 lb alpines over an open fire; not that I'd want it any other way, anyway):

Because the length of milk fermentation is so short relative to these long starter ferments, there's not a lot of leeway to get it right.  So perhaps if I can keep this rice cooker reasonably 122-127F over 24 hours, it will work well enough.  This is probably where alcophile's lab stuff would come into play - or Rus's oven!

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Alcophile, you know, I don't actually know.  Not surprisingly, tons of polish bakeries (and omg, delis.  Walls literally covered with dozens of varieties of cured meats), but never came across a Baltic bakery.  Cool if there is, we'll have to look it up.  Thanks.  BTW - do you live in the area still?  Just realized you've a great eye for what's available out this way.

There is an "Eesti House," an Estonian cultural place located not far from the city proper.  Lot of fun what with traditional festivals and feasts and such.  Something like tamales (at least in my house, though we were German-French) in hispanic culture, one day of mountains of tamales made, during Christmas season, the Eesti women would make tons of blood sausage, verivorst that is extraordinarily good.  Black bread, the sausage and cured fishes, yum.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I often see American recipes calling for waiting 24 hours+ before eating/cutting a freshly made rye loaf. I wonder if people/families in other countries do the same? 

Yippee

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I can't recall where I've read it, it might have been Jeffrey Hamelman, but some formulas advocating up to 72 hrs for full maturation.  Reminds me of braises or stews - imo, so much better in the days following the original cook.

squattercity's picture
squattercity

... I recently made a Normandy Cider Rye that was fine but unbalanced on first taste, quite good 24 hours out, and nearing delectable after 72. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks for the data point, squattercity.  Have to tell you, my wife and I are mad for farmhouse Normandy cider (give me some of that brettanomyces and who knows what other funk any day!), so will have to try this one.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

There are plug and plays, or stuff like thisLots of different waterproof probes available, quite cheap.  I liked mine - completely flexible silicone covering, bends and stays in place.  when i can type better, i can show some more optuins.