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Pointe-a-Calliere Miche - move over BBA "Poilane"...

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buns of steel's picture
buns of steel

Pointe-a-Calliere Miche - move over BBA "Poilane"...

a while ago I asked for recommendations on which recipe is best for a Poilane style miche...

 

thanks dmsnyder for telling me about the Miche, Pointe-a-Calliere in Hamelman's book, a recipe from Montreal baker James MacGuire.  I baked it for the first time today and it was outstanding!!

 

The crumb was gorgeous (IMHO  ;) ), a nice moist crumb, with really nice hole quality and variation, delicious flavor, crust, everything.  The only "variables" I did were that I ground the flour from wheat berries just before using, did a little over 60 minutes for the autolyse (they give a 20-60 minute range), and I added the levain build first to the flour-water, then added the salt after that was fully kneaded in.

 

It's interesting the difference in hydration, the Pointe-a-Calliere at a whopping 82% with the Reinhart at 62.5%. 

 

I had some doubts as to whether it was going to "fly" with that hydration in combination with "underkneading" to only moderate gluten development and folding later... plus I wasn't convinced the bulk fermentation of 2 to 2-1/2 hours was going to be enough for all natural yeast...

 

It was a fantastic learning experience, best miche I've ever made. 

 

I stirred up some controversy before saying Montreal had the best bagels, now I'm thinking maybe Montreal has the best miche too!

 

I highly recommend this recipe to anyone who's after a Poilane style miche.   Thanks again to David for bringing the recipe to my attention!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, B's of S. 

I'm glad the Miche, Ponte-a-Calliere worked for you. I love it! 

How about some photos? Or did you eat the whole thing already? ;-)

David

breadawe's picture
breadawe

Hi B of Steel, Thanks for the post I will give it a try. Hamellman does such a great job in his book. All of his recipies, so far, really work for me.

GrapevineTXoldaccount's picture
GrapevineTXolda...

if you photographed this beauty?  If not, can you just pass the bread this way; I'm hungry!

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

It's actually a museum in Montreal.  They did a history of bread-making a few years ago, and I'd guess that James MacGuire probably had a hand in it.  I'd be interested in the recipe, if you could post it.

DavidAplin's picture
DavidAplin

here's mine!Miche a Pointe Calliere (spelling?)Miche a Pointe Calliere (spelling?)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I've been misspelling the name of this bread. <blush> I turned the point into a bridge. 

Pointe-a-Calliere was the name of the first French settlement that grew into Montreal. 

http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/north-america/canada/quebec/montreal/attraction-detail.html?vid=1154654607959   

David

buns of steel's picture
buns of steel

thanks everyone for your replies.  Yes, I did take photos, it may take me a few days or more to get to posting them.

 

Here's the recipe for PaddyL as asked

 

Overall formula

high extraction WW flour 100%

water 82%

salt 1.8%

 

- - - -

Levain Build

High extraction WW flour 6.4 ounces

Water 3.8 oz

mature culture (stiff) 3 T  (note my 3T wasn't that stiff, it was half "Silverton" at 16 water:11 flour, and half my own apple starter at 1:1 by weight)

 

Final Dough

High Extraction WW flour 1 lb, 9.6 oz

water 1 lb, 6.4 ounces

salt .6 oz or 1 T

Levain all of it less 3 T (I didn't see that and put all of the levain in)

 

1) stiff textured lavain - make it about 12 hours before final mix, let stand covered at about 70F.

 

2) Mixing: flour and water in mixing bowl, mix until ingredients incorporated into shaggy mass.  Cover with plastic and autolyse for 20-60 minutes.  At end of autolyse, sprinkle salt over surface of dough, cut levain into chunks, and place on top of dough.  Finishe mixing on 2nd speed for 2 to 2-1.2 minutes.  The dough will be quite loose, and the gluten network will be only moderately developed.  Desired dough temperature 76F.

 

3) Bulk fermentation - 2-1/2 hours

 

4. folding - Fold dough twice at 50-minute intervals.  Use the folds as a last opportunity to bring strength to the dough.  Because of the we nature of the dough, be sure to have ample dusting flour on the surface when the dough is turned out.  If bread has been mixed in a small stand mixer, a third fold may be necessary to help maximize dough strength, in that case fold at 40 minute intervals.

 

5. Lightly pre-hsape and give dough a gentle final rounding.  Place seams up on a well-floured bakers linen or proofing basket.  After shaping the loaves should be covered to prevent crusting from air currents.  Due to the wet nature of the dough, it is best if nothing touches the exposed side.  At home, covering the loaf with a large bowl or even a cardboard box will do nicely.

 

6. Final Fermentation - approximately 2 to 2-1/2 hours at 76F.  This bread does not favor overnight fermentation

 

7. Baking - with normal steam, 440, then reduce to 420F after 15 minutes, total approx baking = 60 minutes.  (note mine came to internal temperature a little sooner than that).

 

Cool thoroughly wrapped in bakers linen, let flavors meld for at least 12 hours before slicing (yeah right, who can do that?)...

 

If you don't have high extraction flour available, Hamelman recommends a blend of 85-90% complete WW flour, mixed with balance of white bread flour.

 

The bread is great on the 2nd day, so no, David, I did not eat the whole darned miche!!  Other breads I might be guilty of that, a four or five pound miche would take some doing...  No comment however about where that Semolina Sandwich Loaf went...  :-0

hutchndi's picture
hutchndi

Buns, is the recipe posted here made with the fresh milled flour, as you stated in your original post?

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

Thanks very much for posting the recipe!  It looks complicated, and though I've been baking my own bread for years now, and have a large library of books on the subject. I don't have a clue about what you mean by "high extraction flour."  Is this something new and different, or is it a type of flour that has, so far, escaped me?

fthec's picture
fthec

Simply put, normal all purpose or bread flour would be classified as 100% extraction flour (in other words, all the bran,etc has been sifted out).  Therefore, high extraction flour typically has 90-95% sifted out so that it still contains some of the bran.  A close approximation would be first clear flour.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, fthec. 

You got it bass ackwards. 

Whole Wheat flour is 100% extraction. All purpose flour is 72-75% extraction. The higher the bran content, the less bran is sifted out (or the more is put back in by the mill), the higher the extraction percentage.  

High extraction flour has more of the bran left in than patent flour or "white" flour. 

David

buns of steel's picture
buns of steel

Hi Paddy, David is right about extraction, it is close to whole wheat but not quite 100% extraction, a small portion of the "browns" are sifted out.   fthec, think of the extraction as how much of the grain is used (or "extracted")... so high extraction would use more of the grain.

 

Paddy don't sweat not having this particular flour, just use my note that:

 

"If you don't have high extraction flour available, Hamelman recommends a blend of 85-90% complete whole wheat flour, mixed with a balance of white bread flour." 

 

That will approximate high extraction flour for you.

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

 

The Pointe--a-Calliere is wonderful.  Add my vote to this miche recipe.  It is wonderful, especially for a novice as myself with only a year's experience.

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Apologies if I seem a bit nit-picky but I've been playing with hydration on 'high extraction' miches and I can't understand the quoted 82% hydration for the Hammelman Pointe-a-Calliere recipe.  I place it closer to 64% hydration.

 Ignoring the 3T starter added in the first build and taken out in the final build, I calculate a total of:

6.4 (first build)+ 9.6 (final build)= 16 ounces of flour

3.8 (first build) + 6.4 (final build) = 10.2 ounces of water 

10.2/16 * 100 = 63.75% hydration 

It would take a far more skillful and braver person than I,  to shape a boule from an 82% hydration high extraction dough.  I'm sure if I tried the result would be guaranteed to puddle.  Best I could hope for would be something like pain a l'ancienne or ciabatta. 64% I could live with.

I feel like I'm missing something...

Cheers 

FP 

 

 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Hi,

In the "Final Dough" part of the formula Hamelman calls for 1 lb., 9.6 oz. of flour. I think you overlooked the one pound part. It totals 16+9.6 ounces of flour (or 25.6 ounces) in the final dough. This is in addition to the 6.4 ounces in the levain, and gives you the 32 ounces shown in the overall formula. Likewise for water, he calls for 1 lb., 6.4 oz. This would total 16+6.4 or 22.4 ounces, added to the 3.8 ounces in the levain. The two builds total 1 lb., 10.2 oz., or 26.2 ounces in the combination of both builds.

When these amounts are used, his numbers work and the hydration really is 82%.

Note that he goes into some detail in the write up about this being a wet dough and how to handle it. One can see why. If you bake it, let us know how it turns out, because I have been eyeing that recipe myself, but only when I improve my dough handling skills quite a bit.

Mary

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Mary, if you guys decide to make this recipe as your next group bake recipe. I'm in. Luckily I have Hammelman's book, as well as Daniel Leader's Bread Alone and Maggie Glezer's Artizan Baking. So as long as the recipe comes from one of those three I can be one of the bake alongs. :)

Has anyone attempted Richard Bertinet "kneading" technique for extremely wet doughs?

Rudy

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Yes Rudy it works for even an 82& hydration dough. I was worried about it to start with but as long as you autolyse before you stretch/fold then you should be fine.

 

FP 

 

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi FP.

Would love to hear more on your experience of using Richard Bertinet technique. Like how long it took you, what tips you woud offer to those uninitiated to it. I tried it briefly, but things didn't seem to progress the way I imagined they should and being clueless how it should progress I gave up and added a bit flour.

So if you're offering I'm listening. :) I'd even recommend you start a new thread for it.

Rudy

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

As I said, I was surprised myself at how easy it was to apply the technique to this dough.  I'll post more about it in a short while.  I'm sorry to hear you haven't had as much luck with it.  You will find in the beginning stages that the dough gets all over your hands and some on the work surface...this is expected! Use a dough scraper to regularly clean the surface (you can put the excess back on the ball of dough you are working).  With this particular dough I only worked it for about 5 minutes but on other doughs (eg white baguette) I will take up to 20 minutes.  I'll try and organise my thoughts on it into a new post on my blog.

Cheers for now,

FP 

Edit: I posted in my blog:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/7861/french-fold-technique-thoughts 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Thanks.  I can't believe I missed the 1 Ib!! 

doh do I feel stupid! I thought there must be something blindingly obvious that I was getting wrong.

I stlll maintain 82% hydration with an 85% extraction flour would be impossible for me to handle.  I have troubles at 70+ much less 80+.  That dough would be so sticky it would likely never even leave the banneton. Clearly from the picstures it is possible. Oh well.  Such is iife for a less skilled wannabe baker such as myself :)

 

FP 

 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

OK, so I bit the bullet, and tried a modified version of the Hammelman Pointe-a-Calliere (had to adjust the amount of water in the final build because I used some 70% hydration starter that I already had maturing).

As I expected, the dough stuck like crazy to the towel lining of the proofing bowl...which was a real shame.  The dough did spread out quite a bit after being turned out from the bowl but there was some moderate oven spring to compensate.  Nonetheless the result was flatter than other miches I've made in the past.

The flavour is pleasant and very mildly sour as one would expect for higher hydration sourdough.  Of course that might increase overnight. Disappointingly, the crumb was not noticeably more open than miches I've made before with considerably lower hydration (70% for example).  

I wish I could be more positive about the bread. It really is quite nice and perhaps I had unreasonable expectations.  It certainly doesn't mark the end point of my search for a 'go-to' sourdough miche.  If I'd followed the first build more closely (stiffer build) then there might have been a difference although I have my doubts as to how  significant that would be (sourer perhaps...)

What I did learn: A short bulk ferment followed by longer-than-usual proof time is a smart way of handling the issue of high hydration... a technique which I may apply to other breads in the future. 

Cheers

FP 

Additional:

Damn I just realised that the flour I used (premixed a batch a few days ago) is not pure wheat flour.  It's a 30% spelt, 70% wheat mixture (using a combination of sifting and white bread flour to get close to 85% extraction).  No doubt this had some impact on the crumb. 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I have Bertinnet's book, Crust, which came with a CD. I've watched his technique a couple of times, but I think it will be a while until I feel myself ready to tackle this particular bread, even with that technique. I'm slowly building up to it.

FP, didnt you visit Bertinet's bakery, take a class, or some such? Seems to me I remember a photo from you along those lines.

Keep us posted if you tackle the Pointe-a-Calliere again, with different flour. I bet the spelt did have an effect -- isn't that one of the ones that doesn't hydrate well, doesn't have a lot of gluten, or something? I know I love the grain cooked as a cereal but I have never tried the flour.

Good luck.

Mary 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

I did visit the bakery.  It's only open on saturday mornings, I think.  I bought a white sourdough (it had some wholegrain scattered in there too - spelt, I suspect). They were almost sold out of commercially-yeasted breads by the time I got there but strangely not sourdough (they really don't offer much in the way of sourdough or pain au levain)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi FP.

I thought you were about to grasp why 82% hydration is not a cause for fear and trembling, but you missed it. So close, too.

Now, this is a slack dough. No question. The thing is that, if you follow the formula and use 100% high extraction flour, the flour absorbs a lot more water than AP or spelt, although less than whole wheat. So, in terms of what it's like to work with the dough, it's not nearly as "gloppy," to use Maggie Glezer's evocative word, as you might expect. It's dryer than some 72% hydration, all white flour doughs I've made. To give you some idea: Hamelman's miche, pointe-a-calliere dough does spread on the peel and has a flattish profile when baked, but it has enough coherence so you really can score it, unlike slightly wetter doughs.

In fact, I have made this bread, following Hamelman's formula, using one high extraction flour, where the flour absorbed so much water, I thought it needed more than 82% to turn out the way it's supposed to. See this blog entry:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6382/hamelman039s-miche-ponteacalliere-golden-buffalo-flour


David

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Thanks David. I actually did  look at your entry before I embarked on my attempt.

The 82% hydration was  OK to work with but like you say, the flour makes a big difference.  I was working with 30% spelt (admittedly whole spelt). If I were to do it again I would use high extraction / whole wheat flour.   I was working with my 'mongrel mix' flour because I already had a whole batch mixed up.  The idea to go with the point-a-calliere recipe was a last minute decision. 

Scoring wasn't too much of a problem but dough sticking to my (cotton) towel was! (yes I really should invest in some linen cloths).

Thanks again for the info/tips.  I may give this recipe another attempt in the future.  Right now I've still got some of that mixed flour to find a use for :) 

Cheers

FP 

 

parkita's picture
parkita

anyone interested in reopening this discussion? Anyone willing to talk a little more about montreal as it relates to bread and in general? Today I made Hammelmans miche p.a.c. and had decent results.  bread was moving despite the cold.  on the verge of flying. gas trapped in knotted pockets. thats a big boule to round. I actually did the u.s. formula amount as its written in the book.  The wfo oven was not hot enough(mugnani pizza oven) it was the last bake of the day with all that damn floor time.  could have been carmalised and dark and cracklin', though it had good spring it was rather light. long bake, probably near 2 hours! big boys. anyone want to discuss the montreal bagels. there is a good spot in portland or. for them...