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RonRay

Simple Multi Levain Builds for SD &or YW

 [Updated: 110519-0940]

A great deal has been written about methods to build, or refresh, leavains. It is not the purpose of this posting to say here is a “better way”. The sole purpose here is to say here is a very simple way, if you want to build any desired amount of levain for a loaf you wish to try.

 

I have given out free calculators to work out any mix combinations I can think anyone would ever really want. I still give such things out, however, many people seem to panic if faced with a spreadsheet, still they do use a computer, which is far more complicated. The world is filled with many mysteries that I have given up hopes of ever understanding. So, here are a few basic steps to figure out your builds.

 

Limits:

1/ Only 100%HL (hydration levels) are considered.

2/ Only White Sourdough ( WSD ) or Yeast Water ( YW ) are considered.

3/ Only 1, 2, or 3 Builds are considered.

4/ Only Ratios of 1:1:1 ( Seed:Flour:Liquid ) are considered.

5/ You must know how much Levain you want to end with.

6/ You must already have a SD Seed amount, or a YW Seed amount to start with.

 

Start by writing down the Amount Desired.

Example: AD = 200g

Decide how many Builds you want – limit is 1, 2, or 3.

 

Sourdough Only:

 

Rule: Divide the AD to find initial Seed required:

1-Build, Divide the AD by 3

2-Build, Divide the AD by 9

3-Build, Divide the AD by 27

 

Example: AD = 200g

1-Build, 200 / 3 = 66.666 round the up to 67g.

You will need 67g of Seed to mix with 67g of flour and 67g of water for a total of 201g of levain.

 

Example: AD = 200g

2-Build, 200 / 9 = 22.222 round the up to 23g.

Build-#1 = 23g of Seed to mix with 23g of flour and 23g of water for a total of 69g of levain.

Build-#2 = 69g from B-#1 to mix with 69g of flour and 69g of water for a total of 207g of levain.

 

Example: AD = 200g

3-Build, 200 / 27 = 7.401 round the up to 8g.

Build-#1 = 8g of Seed to mix with 8g of flour and 8g of water for a total of 24g of levain.

Build-#2 = 23g from B-#1 to mix with 23g of flour and 23g of water for a total of 69g of levain.

Build-#3 = 69g from B-#2 to mix with 69g of flour and 69g of water for a total of 207g of levain.

 

Yeast Water Only – Note Well: Everywhere you find “Liquid*” below, you can use YW, or H2O, or a mix.

 

Rule: Divide the AD to find initial Seed required:

1-Build, Divide the AD by 2

2-Build, Divide the AD by 6

3-Build, Divide the AD by 18

 

Example: AD = 200g

1-Build, 200 / 2 = 100g

You will need 100g of YW as Seed to mix with 100g of flour for a total of 200g of levain.

 

Example: AD = 200g

2-Build, 200 / 6 = 33.333 round the up to 34g.

Build-#1 = 34g of YW as Seed to mix with 34g of flour for a total of 68g of levain.

Build-#2 = 68g from B-#1 to mix with 68g of flour and 68g of Liquid* for a total of 204g of levain.

 

Example: AD = 200g

3-Build, 200 / 18 =11.111 round the up to 12g.

Build-#1 = 12g of YW as Seed to mix with 12g of flour for a total of 24g of levain.

Build-#2 = 23g from B-#1 to mix with 23g of flour and 23g of Liquid* for a total of 69g of levain.

Build-#3 = 69g from B-#2 to mix with 69g of flour and 69g of Liquid* for a total of 207g of levain.

 

I hope that is of some help...

Ron

 

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RonRay

Yeast Water Examples with Photos TFL Links Only [Updated: 110605-0720]

This is a follow up on my Yeast Water & Other Wee Beastie Bubbles (No Math) posting at the link below:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23441/yeast-water-amp-other-wee-beastie-bubbles-no-math

 

I wanted to provide an easy way, for those interested, to find visual examples of what has been done by TFL members using Yeast Water Levain (YWL).

The intent is to list links to any TFL posting that meets two criteria:

1/ The baked item used Yeast Water (YW) as one of the levains, and

2/ The posting shows some photographic material of the baked item.

 

I have searched the TFL index, and have gone through Threads, which I thought might have such postings/comments with in them. There is no intent to exclude any material that meets the two criteria given above. Therefore, if you know of any existing posting not list below, that meets the criteria, please, provide me with the link, and I will attempt to add it to this index. This is not intended to be a continually updated posting, however, for those new postings in the very near future, I will try to get them added, as well – if they are reported to me.

There are 17 categories – 15 Yeast Water type groups, 1 group of mixed &or unclear types, and the first category which is not the baking, but rather the making of YW or YWL.

 

Within each category, I have tried to list them from oldest down to the most recent. I hope no one finds it odd that many of the examples are my own postings, but the world does have those who get upset by nearly everything.

 

01 *** Making YW &or YWL...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-142706

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-142813

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23719/time-lapse-video-apricot-yw-levain

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23809/how-i-make-and-maintain-raisin-yeast-water

02 *** Apple YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143250

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-143857

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145005

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145082

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146554

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21251/bread-who-grew-horn-or-apple-yeast-gone-wild

03 *** Apricot YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23752/apricot-yeast-water-test-loaf

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23816/apricot-yeast-water-pullman-loaf

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23818/survival-fittest-pt-2-raisin-yw-wins

04 *** Blueberry YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23676/fruitfed-yeast-adventuremadness#comment-170888

05 *** Cherry YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23676/fruitfed-yeast-adventuremadness#comment-170888

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23818/survival-fittest-pt-2-raisin-yw-wins

06 *** Clementine YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143000

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143153

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-144440

 07 *** Lemon YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146895

 08 *** Mixed or Type-Unsure YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough#comment-32470

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143159

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-143785

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145327

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145701

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146231

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146950

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21104/my-first-panettone-milanese

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23348/my-japanese-sandwich-loaf

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23379/cuban-bread-japanese-sandwich-starterliquid-yeast

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-169592

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23519/bread-who-grew-horn-or-apple-yeast-gone-wild#comment-170137

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23613/liquid-yeast-sourdough

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23615/strawberry-pocky-my-version-mixed-fruit-yeast-water

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-170489

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-170580

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23694/standard-kiss-loaf-or-keep-it-simple-smiley

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-171399

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23779/survival-fittest-%E2%80%93-which-fruit-yeast-water-keep

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23818/survival-fittest-pt-2-raisin-yw-wins

09 *** Peach YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23708/search-offlavor-peachy-boule#comment-171159

10 *** Potato YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23793/potato-yeast-water-pullman-loaf-shorty

11 *** Prune YW examples...

 http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145016

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145570

12 *** Raisin YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough#comment-31414

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146574

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146735

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-146880

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-147134

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23593/david039s-miche-raisin-yeast-water

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23726/thank-you-syd

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23818/survival-fittest-pt-2-raisin-yw-wins

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-172317

13 *** Rice YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-147023

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-147096

14 *** Strawberry YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-169026

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-169740

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23440/raisin-water-yeast#comment-170434

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23676/fruitfed-yeast-adventuremadness#comment-170888

 15 *** Tea YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough#comment-31954

16 *** Tomato YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23680/tomato-pretzel-yeast-water-raisin-yeast-water-used#comment-170927

17 *** Yogurt YW examples...

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145564

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-145610

 

Ron

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RonRay

Yeast Water & Other Wee Beastie Bubbles (No Math)

There is a Chinese proverb, of which, I am very fond:

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.

      a  Highly Active Culture  of  Apple Yeast Water

 

Having no delusions of being wise, I often go ahead and refer to things, for which, I have never found a proper name. However, I do try to state the meaning that I think they may deserve.

*** Some terms and the meanings I place on them when I use them.

Yeast Water (YW)... a specific instance of:
A quantity of nearly total water, which contains an active culture of microscopic life forms that will consume various nutrients and release carbon dioxide while doing so.

Yeast Water, Yeast Water Levain (YWL)... in general, intended, or already mixed with a gluten type flour:
A culture started from any type of YW that is mixed with flour and used in the same way as Sourdough Levain or Commercial yeast.

AYW, RYW, PYW, CYW, GYW, etc.... abbreviations for what is used to maintain the YW culture, such as:
Apple YW, Raisin YW, Prune YW, Clementine YW, Grape YW, etc. Used where the 1st letter's meaning should be clear to anyone.

Dust, as in apple dust, raisin dust, etc....
The accumulation of particles on the bottom of a YW culture, resulting from small parts that the culture has reduced to separate "dust" parts.

Highly Active Culture... general usage.
A Yeast Water culture that shows large amounts of activity - CO2 creation - can be in the form of bubbles rising in the actual water of a YW jar, or in a levain, which would be judged exactly as one would judge a sourdough levain.

Strong YW... general usage
Only measurable by testing growth when mixed with at least a A-P flour level gluten. This would apply to most YW that is being stored in a fridge, although, if returned to room temperature, the indications of a Highly Active Culture may re-manifest themselves.

Wild Yeast... general usage:
Any of the countless species of eukaryotic micro-organisms (over 1,500 species currently described, according to Wikipedia [1]) excluding those used in Commercial Yeast and known as Baker's Yeast, as well as Brewer's Yeast - both of which are Saccharomyces cerevisiae, and have been used for thousands of years (See Wikipedia [1, 2] ) There is no earthly reason, that I can think of, which would justify your needing to remember any of those technical terms...

Wee Bonnie Beasties (WBBs)... my personal usage
Any of the Wild Yeast that I might find useful. Sorry, but as the writer, I do have some prerogatives.

*** General Thoughts about Sourdough and Yeast Water - as far as our usage here.

All I need to know, and therefore, all I care to touch upon here, is how do I understand the cultivation, care, and usage of Yeast Water (YW) to the extent that I get the levains that will aid me in making foods I bake, &or eat - I do eat banana levain without the baking step and occasionally drink some fermented beverages..

Think of these Wild Yeast, for a moment, as if they were humans. You can find different groups that like different music, or different foods, different climates, etc. There are different groups of Wild Yeast that like wheat, others rye, others apples, grapes, etc. I think you see the point. But, they all need a source of the foods that they can eat, or that their companions can convert into foods that they can eat, and in hard times, they will eat things that they would probably not prefer to eat.

Unlike humans, Wild Yeast and their companions don't normally have drilling equipment, and while they often can be transported by air currents, they do not have wings to pick and choose locations. So, if chance places them where there are the sugars, starches and whatever that is needed for these Wee Bonnie Beasties (WBBs) to survive and multiply, then there is a very good chance that they will do just that.

Those great survival places are, more often than not, on the outer surface of commonly grown food sources. The same ones that humans often like, and for the same reasons that the WBBs like them - they are good sources of sugars, starches, and flavors - and low sources of deadly compounds (the latter consideration does not necessarily apply to humans).

Now, let us consider where these few fanciful premises can take us:
1/ The world is full of concentrated sources of these WBBs.
2/ They are there for your finding and taking.
3/ With some trial and (perhaps,) error, you should be able provide a home and diet that will keep both you and your WBBs happy.
4/ They will rise your doughs, and uncomplaining will die so that you may bake your daily bread.
5/ It is not too likely that they will remain that happy, if you force them to change their ways.
6/ Your WBBs are happy and healthiest on their original diets, and if you shift the diet, there is a very good chance the new WBBs - that come in with the new food you provide - will take over and the originals will diminish, even disappear completely.

The last item - "6/" - means that Apple Yeast Water (AYW) can shifted into a sourdough (SD) and that SD into a banana levain (BL) and the BL into a sour-rye levain (SRL) and even converted back into an AYW... Assuming you had strange tastes in what you liked to spend your time doing.

*** The Skin Game...

None of this is new., and the methods of starting a sourdough culture are filled with examples of people using the facts - without necessarily connecting the dots. Nancy Silverton has pushed using grapes to start a sourdough culture [3]. Dan Lepard says to use raisins, currants, and whey. [4] In an hour you could no doubt find any number of other examples of "Helpers to get a sourdough started".

What most of these have in common is that they start a YW culture long enough to establish an environment to foster the growth of the WBBs found in wheat flour. In my first Apple YW culture [5] I used a ¼ tsp of potato YW to jump-start the apple YW fermentation.

You do not need to be a "health nut" to realize that the skins of most commercially sold fruit have been treated
with chemicals to kill "everything except humans" ( not sure about the "except' part of that statement ). So, if you feel you must start from scratch, and use the skins of your source item, and then I would say buy from a source of untreated fruits or vegetables. Once you have any Wild Yeast culture - Sourdough, or Yeast Water, you never need to use skins again, and there are other benefits, I find, to using only the pure flesh of the fruits. Although, I will admit the "garbage disposal" approach of skin, cores, and table scraps, etc. will work to create a YW culture.

*** Do Not Be Afraid to Experiment ...

If you do not try things, you will only have "book learning". I would think, that anyone, which only had book learning would be much the poorer for the lack of the real life complement . Book learning is great, but not to the exclusion of life's lessons.

*** Why Not Just Use a Sourdough Culture and Be Done With It?

Well, I don't know. Why do anything different? Why use Sourdough and not just commercial yeast? Perhaps to learn how to do new things, perhaps, of the increase the range of options that new methods might offer you. These types of decisions are personal choices - choices each of us have to make for ourselves.

For me, there is also the fact that the general absence of the "Sour", as in sourdough, is desired at times. The fragrance from various YW levains is a worthy addition to the palette that I can use to paint the flavor of a bread, and the colors of different YW can add visual appeal to the baked goods - bread, or any other items.

In addition, there are differences in how individual types of YW levains behave. Some people have observed much faster rises with raisin YW (RYW) in certain cases, I find differences in the temperature effects on AYW, as compared to SD levains.

I also find there is the greater ease in the maintenance requirements for my AYW than there is for my SD culture. I love SD, and would never knowingly give it up. However, SD gives me one family of flavors and crumb colors, YW gives me a wider range of everything. I also have had what I consider as great results using a mixture of SD and AYW to create a bread with superior flavor, tang, color, and moistness - all based on my taste, of course, not necessarily to your taste.

But, I am not using my time writing this to play salesman. I could care less if you use Yeast Water, but two things have brought me to try to write this: First, I find - perhaps well intended - postings that are full of statements based upon fantasies (at best), and information that is only creating more "Baker's Legends" and secondly, I find more and more of my personal time being spent answering the same questions over and over. While this is a time consuming task, to the extent that I can write down these answers in a referenceable posting, the less future time that will be spent on those same answers.

*** How Does One Start a Yeast Water culture...

Well that depends on several things, but in general:

1/ Choose the type of YW you want initially. I would suggest picking one that others have had good results at starting. For that, I would say try one of these three types: Grape, Raisin, or Apple, although, feel free to try anything that turns you on.

2/ You will need to start from scratch only if you have no source of existing Sourdough, or Yeast Water cultures. Since all you need to jump-start a culture is a very small amount of any existing culture, I am sure anyone you know that has a culture could give you a part of teaspoonful of their culture to get you started.

3/ Starting with, or without, a jump-start culture:

a/ Take a clean glass jar that has a lid. I find short squat a POOR choice, and jars taller than wide a BETTER choice.

b/ Fill about one fourth of the jar's height with your raisins, or crushed grapes, or your apple slices.

c/ Add water that is chemical free. Fill that jar about half full. I find having the fruit filling only half the volume of water is convenient for the following reasons. Raisins initially sink and as the YW starts developing, raisins will start to form bubbles and then rise, grapes tend to be a mixed bag as to floating initially, while apple slices float initially, but when really depleted they often become "waterlogged" sink to the bottom. In any case, having a section that is more or less a clear water area offers greater opportunity to notice changes that start to occur in your YW culture. This is even more true when it is a fully mature and active culture.

d/ If you wish, you can add a small amount (½ tsp.) of honey, or sugar, but it is not necessary with sweet fruit at first, but would be with vegetables.

e/ IF Jump-starting ONLY:

e-1/ Using an existing YW: add a teaspoon full of the active existing YW to your new starting YW jar,
e-2/ Using an existing SD: ½ teaspoon of SD to cup of water, stir to dissolve the SD in the water and wait for half hour to get some settlement in the mixture. Then, extract a teaspoon of the top portion of the water mixture and add it to your new starting YW jar.

f/ Place a lid on the jar, and leave the jar out of direct sunlight, at room temperature (RT), or up to about 82ºF (27.8º C)

g/ Once a day (more often will not hurt) remove the lid, and stir to release any CO2 and to add oxygen to the solution. Some people find a vigorous shaking of the jar helps. It may, I have never tried it.

h/ If after 4 or 5 days, you do not see bubbles starting to forming, raisins or grapes floating, add another sugar or honey treat. If after 7 days you see nothing, throw everything out and find a new source for your fruit purchases. Start over.

*** After the Bubbles Flow...

Once you have convincing evidence of the YW becoming active, you can make your first proofing test. After all, the only proof of a worthwhile leavening culture is in the rising of the dough. So make your first YWL (YW levain). I would do it something like this:

1/ Find a small glass container, something very much like a typical morning fruit juice glass, with close to vertical sides. The straighter the container's sides, the easier it is to judge how much the levain has risen.

2/ If you weigh the empty glass and record the weight for future reference, it might come in handy. Use your tap water to see about how much a quarter of a glass of water weighs. If it is about 40 to 50 ml (grams), or about 1½ ounces, that would seem a good enough amount. Empty the glass.

3/ Measure out something close to that weight in the YW from your culture (replace the same amount of water back into the culture) and also measure an equal weight of A-P flour. Combine the YW and flour in your "test beaker", mix the two ingredients and place a rubber band around the glass at the level of the mixture's top surface. Place it in a warm location where you can check for activity and place anything - like a piece of light cardboard on the top to cover the opening - to keep anything from falling in and to minimize evaporation from the mixture.

4/ check the level, as compared to the rubber band's location to see if it is rising. If it raises to a level equal to the twice as high as the rubber band in 4 or 5 hours you have a very active levain (and YW culture) if it has not risen at least half that much in 24 hours, then your culture is not ready to use yet. In between those extremes, you make your own judgment calls.

*** After Your Proof of Life on Mars...

Okay, you now are the proud owner of a Yeast Water culture. You have the information needed you make new types of YW, should you wish to. You should realize that the characteristics of your YW will take some time to know well, and that changing the way you feed it, or adding different types of materials into the culture will all change anything you have learned about it - just as switching the A-P flour in a White Sourdough levain to a diet of rye will make it radically different in its behavior, so too will switching from apples to prunes change the characteristics of your YW. Using certain fruits will make any YW worthless for use in bread making - these are a few: kiwi, pineapple, mango and papaya.
I strongly recommend you read the materials on TFL and elsewhere before making any changes in your culture's feeding and care. Here are a few places to start such readings [6, 7, 8, 9].

*** Apple Yeast Water (AYW)...

From here on, nearly everything is specifically meant to apply only to my AYW and SD cultures, although, I will touch on some of my observations that I made with other YW types. However, as I have said above, different YW types may have different characteristics, and often do.

So, for example, if you want specifics on RYW, search TFL on "teketeke" or "daisya". If you want info on AYW, search TFL on "hanseata" or on "RonRay" and if on a wider range, search TFL on "yeast water", &or the references listed at the end of this writing.

Of course, if you are looking for deep information on the nature of SD, search TFL of "Debra Wink", who knows more facts about sourdough WBBs than anyone I ever encountered.

*** Some Q & A that have been posed in the past...

= Q
...Now that I have my RYW proofed , should I just keep that and use it like I do my SD?
= A
...No, keep your yeast water away from flour, until you want to use it for baking...


= Q
...Okay, but why?
= A
...It appears that anything the grows and offers nutrients on its skin/surface/husk/etc. will attract wild yeasts, Labs, and who knows what else. different wee beasties will find different nutrient sources preferable to others. So, your raisin yeast water (RYW) will get competition from the beasties that love flour, and soon you will not have sweet RYW, but sourdough.


= Q
...You said you use 3 builds to make your YW levain. My SD works fine with one or two. Why use more.
= A
...I used the straight method on one of wao's YW breads and it took 16 hours to rise. With SD, generally, you've done refreshes and have a good feel for just how active the SD is. If, like many people, you keep YW in the fridge, until you want to use it; you have a very poor basis to know just how active it is. It is simple for me to take a small amount (10 to 20g) of highly active YW from my active culture and add it to an equal amount of A-P flour and in a few hours have proof positive of strong growth. Using that when it is between 60% to 80% risen and moving to Build #2 gives a strong growth and guarantees that the Build #3 will provide exactly what I planned for in rise times and volume of my breads. No 16 hour surprises anymore.

= Q
...Can I get a sour YW by keeping it in the fridge too long?
= A
...I can only tell you what I have experienced:
1/ If I start with my AYW & Flour, and use AYW (not tap Water) in all builds, I have never gotten a sour levain - even after a week in the fridge.

2/ If I start with my AYW & Flour, and use tap Water (not AYW) in all builds, I have never gotten a sour levain after 3-builds - even after a week in the fridge.
3/ If I start with my AYW & Flour, and use tap water (not AYW) in all builds, and then retain some of that levain to back slope a new series of builds (built on the old levain) I have started to get a sour by the 6th build. All 6 builds being built largely at 51ºF/10.6ºC in a wine bottle fridge.
In other words: One can convert an AYW Levain into a normal WSD by maintaining an initial YW Levain in the same manor as a sourdough culture is maintained. My guess is that the continuing refreshments of wild yeast in the flour, without any fresh YW allows the flour-loving wild yeast to take over the culture.
4/ If I start WSD (White Sourdough) Levain, and use my surplus AYW from the fridge, instead of tap water, in my builds, I can build a SD-AYW Levain that is both sour and has a beautiful fragrance and makes a sweeter, more moist loaf. It has become a favored method of mine.
5/ I have never found a condition where the sourness decreased with increased time - either in, or out of a fridge.
6/ THIS MAY BE of relevance... All of the above is with Apple Yeast Water and KAF A-P flour. Since we know that each type of flour is likely to have a different group of "favorite" wild yeast living off of it, all of these results might very well be different if the flour type changed. For instance, if you used Rye flour, I would not be at all surprised if you had different results. Thus, with your different formulae, you may well be creating different conditions than those that I have been dealing with.

= Q
...How do you know your AYW is slowing down, or needs food, and such?
= A
...I use the bubbles as a measure of the activity. A slow down, usually is for one of these reasons:
1/ The pressure got too high (because I tighten jar the lid too tight). If so, there will be swishing with foaming when the pressure is reduced by removing the lid.
2/ The water has gotten too alcoholic (I do not consider that "sour", but you might) and that water goes into the fridge to use in levain builds - other than the first build. If you cannot tell alcohol by smell, taste it.
3/ The WBBs want their sugar cube "fix" (I give one cube about every 4 to 7 days, and whenever I change water).
4/ The apple slices have little left to give. (depending upon the apple type, 8 to 10 days).
BTW I have 2 jars that have been maintained this way for at least five months, and never cooled, nor refrigerated.
5/ When the apple slices sink, you know the activity is very low. The slices float, when fresh, but as time passes they become more waterlogged, and need the bubbles to hold them up !!!
Now, I was talking about my AYW (apple yeast water in those points. But it should provide a background for any wild yeast culturing - with adjustments for the oddities by "beastie types"

Here is an image of the bubbles rising in my AYW culture. They are difficult to photograph, and often I need to use a magnifying glass to see them clearly. The streams of bubbles can be very small, fine, bubbles, but they start in the apple dust at the bottom and stream to the apple slices at the top. Of course, when a sugar cube is dropped in, it sinks into the apple dust at the bottom. So, there is a lot of sugars in the material at the bottom.

= Q
...What IS your favorite fruit water? Why is it your favorite?
= A
...Well, I would call it Yeast water, not fruit water - vegetables work well, too. When I was fairly new with YW experiments, I thought I liked Clementine YW best. But Apple YW was a close second choice.

Clementine lost out more for practical considerations: I crushed the sections and only added those parts and the juice. (I found the skins of citrus, if used in YW made tastes I distinctly dislike).

Of course, any source that is highly seasonal, is not a good choice for one's "standby" YW. Grapes, raisins, and Zante Currants are all reliable year round sources, as is/are potato flakes (instant potato). Some sources must be avoided, if it is bread you wish to use the YW in - such as the warning I posted elsewhere: "Certain fruits should not be used for yeast waters intended for leavening bread. They are those fruits (or vegetables) that contain Actinidain (or actinidin) kiwi, pineapple, mango and papaya. This protease enzyme breaks down protein. If you make a yeast water from these fruits, you can still use it as a meat tenderize, but NOT in your bread dough."

I discovered that prune juice worked well to make a YW, but turned out making a dense crumb that I didn't care for very much. It did make a bread that visually could pass for a very dark rye.

Which brings up the coloring agent aspect that YW can play. Clementine and apple give a very nice soft golden tint, as well as a nice fragrance.

For me, AYW won.

Before I give the final considerations, why apple won for me, let me shift to another consideration, and that is Starting vs. maintaining a Wild Yeast Culture.

In nature, it is the skins that usually hold the highest concentrations of wild yeast. The dusty film on the skins of grapes and blueberries are wild yeast. In the modern day world, fewer and fewer skins of fruit and vegetables that one buys in the market have not been treated in one way or another to kill or remove anything on the skins. So, it becomes a bit harder to start a YW from scratch, and potentially, much less healthy to add unwashed skins to the YW. Fortunately, the skins are not necessary in maintaining an established culture, nor are they necessary if you have any type culture existing.

Since, if you have any Wild Yeast Culture, you can start a different one by jump-starting the new one. Just as feeding a pure banana purée to SD can create a pure Banana levain, or feeding rye flour to SD can get a Sour Rye, likewise, adding a small amount of raisin YW (RYW) to a jar of skinned apple slices covered with water, will get you an AYW from a RYW in about 1, or 2 days.

Of course, if you once have an AYW culture, you have no need to ever use any skins. The WBBs will slowly build "apple dust" on the bottom of the jar's clear gold-tinted water in the middle area and floating apple slices on the top. The "apple dust" seems to be that greatest concentration of the wee beasties and while I maintain some always in the culture, it adds an extended moistness to a bread. I enjoy using the "discard" apple slices (when replaced by fresh ones in the culture) mixed with raisins, honey, brown sugar as a baked apple desert - much like my Banana levain gets used as a treat.

= Q
...How can you keep from dumping your apple dust when you change water, or use the AYW for levain?
= A
...I use a baster, just a common supermarket type, but the top squeeze bulb is smaller than most. Cleaning is not a problem, since it is only used for the AYW, and I fill a quart plastic container in the sink before using the baster to extract the AYW. As soon as the extraction is complete, I simple suck the baster full of clean water from the plastic pail, shake well and squirt it into the sink drain. Repeating that 3 or 4 times is all the cleaning required and the baster is allowed to drain/dry vertically in the rack at the sink's edge.

Surplus AYW is saved in tall jars that were once olive jars and kept in the fridge's door, and used it in Build #2s and #3s of levain builds. Thus, normally, this only requires me to need 10 to 20g of fresh AYW from the active culture's water - which is replaced at once with fresh water out of the same baster that had just extracted the used amount. That AYW, of course, is what I use to make the Build #1 of any new levain build.

There is no water loss from the active culture, except what I remove - as in the above use for new levain starts. Other than that, what gets removed is nearly all water when the water gets too high in alcohol, and that is what I use to form the fridge maintained surplus.

= Q
...So simple and it sounds like you really only have to attend to it once a week....or do you toss in a sugar cube sometime before you do what you have just done?
= A
...I enjoy watching the small streams of bubbles raising from the "apple dust" and racing up to the undersides of the floating apple slices. Several times a day, I generally pause to watch them for a second, or two. It is good to open the jar one or more times a day, and just mildly stir the apple slices - the parts exposed to the air are effected differently than those that are not. Stirring also ensures that the lid was not too tight - would not want too much pressure to build up in the jar.

Of course, to stir, is to shake off bits that become the "apple dust", as well as mixing the existing dust, thus, reducing the clarity of the AYW, so I generally do this as the last act of the day. This way the AYW has overnight to regain its clarity back before I see it in the morning.

I mentioned earlier, the signs of reduced activity in a culture, and when no other basis for the decline in activeness is found, I generally add a sugar cube. This addition, generally isn't more often than once, or twice a week, but that changes, depending on how active the culture is, and how fresh the apple slices are.


*** Some Concluding Thoughts...

Yeast Water is "just another leavening agent" It offers alternatives that can be used in baking leavened doughs. Potentially, every vegetable, or fruit could be used to create a Yeast Water, and each would have its own, often subtle, differences, but sometimes very marked effects on the baked goods. I strongly suggest you compare what you have known from your use of SD and commercial yeast to your new culture. Learn the differences, and how to use them. If you do not like what you find, shift to a different food source and ,thus, shift the type of YW you have, Do not assume they are all the same.

I hope to come back and offer links to more of the specific types of Yeast Water on TFL postings. But for now, I think this should help some of those interested in more information on the subject of Yeast Water Levains.

Updated:110517-10:50    The Yeast Water Examples with Photos TFL Links Only has been posted See link:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23597/yeast-water-examples-photos-tfl-links-only

Enjoy, and do not let your buns get burned.

RonRay

NOTE: A PDF of this document can be found at Google Docs by using the link below:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_MScoZfDZkwZDFkMmY5NWQtMTA0MS00OGE2LTllNzQtMDFkMzM1Yjg5OWZl&hl=en

*** Footnotes...

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker%27s_yeast
3. http://www.food.com/recipe/nancy-silverton-s-grape-sourdough-starter-316306
4. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Handmade-Loaf-Dan-Lepard/dp/1845333896/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277986711&sr=1-2
5. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143439
6. http://originalyeast.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
7. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough
8. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts
9. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B
10. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-143857

 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Originally, this was a comment in the thread:Levain as Desert


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts


However, I now find that I cannot find such "comments" very easily, and I just spent a too much time finding this, and another "comment", both of which should have been done as a blog, if for no other reason than to be able to reference them, when needed.


=== The original follows with no chages for the previous  entry. ===110423


On a daily basis, I have my levain discard as a Desert, and love it. As for how I made it originally, that is well explained in the Banana Saga: Link   http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/


But, since then I have discovered it is very simple to make, and maintain, Banana Levain - assuming that you have a Cuisinart SmartStick 200-Watt Immersion Hand Blender, and if you do not then any blender could serve, but it will mean a bit more mess and work for you to do so.
 
Let us start from scratch: buy at lease 5 or 6 bananas. The best ones are those you would choose to eat, the poorest are those you would put in a banana quick bread. Take a one quart plastic  round container that has a lid, and then peel and slice the bananas crosswise, making round pieces, about 3 to 4 mm thick slices. Place the slices in the container, place the lid on it, and put the container with its sliced contents in the freezer or ice compartment until frozen solid - I do it for 24 hours. Next, remove the container from the freezer and place in the fridge to thaw, where they can remain until you want them. I usually let them have a couple of days, or longer to thaw slowly. They can remain thus for an extended period until you need to use them for refreshing an existing levain, or creating a new one. Freezing them does nothing to the flavor, but it weakens, or destroys most of the cell walls and fibrous parts of the banana. When I need a fresh batch to use for refreshing the levain, I first need to puree the once frozen slices. I use the Cuisinart SmartStick to puree the thawed banana slices directly in their plastic container in less than a minutes.



That puree is a great treat all by itself. If the bananas were still frozen, it makes an ice cream of pure banana, as well. Of course, I prefer it as a levain with a snappy bite to it.



To start a pure banana levain, simply take a small amount - I use 25g - of the puree and add a 1/4 tsp of ANY yeast water, or liquid sourdough starter. I have a yogurt maker that came with 7, 5oz. glasses with individual plastic caps. I use one of these, and blend the "seed" into the puree using a small battery powered hand whisk.



The powered whisk came with two tips - a normal whisk and a small tip called a drink foam-maker, or "foamer". The end of the foam-maker came with a spring coiled on its loop. The spring can be removed. If left in place it catches small fibrous parts and can be a pain to clean. I prefer it without the coiled spring.



I use this battery powered hand mixer to blend the seed with the puree banana refresh for the levain to get a more uniform rise from the levain.


Once a smooth mix is obtained, I smack the bottom of the glass once or twice to more or less level the surface. Then I add a rubber band as a visual indicator of the starting level of the levain. Then snap the lid on the glass.


From time to time I check back to see the growth progress.



I was using 5g seed and 25g refreshment, but the banana levain can become feisty, and on one occasion, it rose over 5 fold and blew the lid off - ejecting banana levain in a mild mess. So, after that, I have limited the total amount to 25g (5g seed and 20g refreshment).


Currently, with an ambient temperature around 70ºF/21ºC, I find it has tripled (or better) overnight, and once again before I am ready to retire. So, when I check and find the glass rather full, I remove the cap and place a clean glass on the digital scale. Then I transfer a 5g seed from the finish batch into the new start of the next feeding.



Of course, once the 5g seed has been "planted" for the next cycle, the remaining 20g is now discarded into my oral compactor. (+^_^+).



And thus, I have come full cycle. I go to the fridge and get the container of banana puree and feed 20g of the puree as the refresh to the levain and another snack starts to grow.



Ron

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Ingredient List for TFL Bakers



A previous blog:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22562/sourdough-crackers


If you are one of the TFL members already on my Applications list, new application was already sent to you. If you are not on that list, and could use a free spreadsheet calculator for determining the Calories, Grams, and Ounces for the amounts you enter on any of 155 existing ingredients entries, as well as the option for you to edit the existing information, and space for you to add to the list in any of the 45 remaining blank slots, then you might want to look at the sample PDF file, which I placed on Google Doc:https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_MScoZfDZkwNTI4NWJjOWMtNzQwZS00YWU1LWJlZWQtMGZiN2I0Njg0ZWU0&hl=en


I generate many programs for my own needs. If they seem like others might find them of use, I have been placing them in Public Domain and sending copies to those that have previously requests any of those that I have given copies to in the past.


If, after looking at the PDF example of the spreadsheet, and if you have Open-Office, or Excel, then I will e-mail you copies, if you request them. To do so, simply e-mail me with " TFL Apps " as the Subject Line. That is all you need do, I will e-mail you copies, and add you to the list. The list is only for these free applications, and updates, etc. I maintain the list myself and for no other purpose. I will also remove your name at anytime request me to do so, with no reason necessary to be given.


You can e-mail me at:
Ron@ronray.us


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Sourdough Crackers


Previous blog: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22542/noknead-multigrain-seed-and-nut-loaf


I know that most of us, that culture wild yeast, seldom actually "discard" the discards of our sourdough. Of course, it is not unusual to hear someone new to keeping a sourdough culture remarking that they hate to have to through out the discards. And again, of course, a dozen replies of "No! Make pancakes..." or "Oh, no! Make waffles... ". Well, from now on, I will be crying "No! Make sourdough crackers.. The older the discards, the better the crackers!"


Naturally, that does assume you like sour sourdough, but the crackers are great even with "un-sour" sourdough discards, Rye Sour, etc. or even non-discarded levain as the leavening ingredient.


I came across a year old post by Sarah Wood on using your discard for whole wheat crackers. The link is:
http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2010/03/08/sourdough-recipes-galore-whole-wheat-crackers/
It certainly looked simple enough, so I tried it. I am certainly glad I did, although, a batch never last very long and another few hundred calories have been ingested.


So, here is a step by step, complete with photos, Baker's percentages, some suggestions, and pointers on the ingredients and process. Even if you are not of an experimental curiosity by nature, I suspect you will have some ideas for variations you would like to try.



A small amount Sesame Oil, or Olive Oil to brush the top of the crackers and Kosher salt to sprinkle over the oiled surface will also be needed.


Substitutions of butter or lard can be made for the coconut oil, but I prefer the coconut oil, either the Extra Virgin, or the Expeller types.


Notice that I chose the ingredient amounts to exactly match the Baker's percentages. This batch size works very well for one sheet of crackers per Silpat baking sheet and a 100 grams of discards is an equally reasonable size. If you wish, make multiples of this amount and store in the fridge until you want more crackers.


I do want to mention some considerations to keep in mind when using coconut oil. Using the Extra Virgin Coconut Oil is my first choice, Expeller Coconut Oil is my second and neither one requires special consideration in a warmer kitchen, but if the kitchen temperature, or the dough temperature, is below about 78ºF ( 25.5º C) then you should either use methods to maintain the temperature of all ingredients about 78ºF ( 25.5º C) during the mixing phase, or use softened butter. Coconut oil is liquid from about the 75ºF ( 23.9º C) and above. Adding it in a mix of cold, fresh out of the fridge, levain may very well cause lumpy, difficult dough conditions. Once the full mixing is complete, this is no longer of any potential problem.











Let your finished crackers cool before placing (if any are uneaten) in an airtight container to preserve their crispness.


============= 110328-1330


   Next Blog:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22910/ingredient-list-and-calcultor-tfl-bakers


 


 



RonRay's picture
RonRay

No-Knead Multigrain Seed and Nut Loaf


A previous blog:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B

Last December a posting by Jaydot caught my interest http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21186/huge-amount-seeds-and-sugar
Her sister in law had brought a recipe back from South Africa, which seem a bit strange.


Mini Oven suggested it might be South African Seed Bread, while PmcCool suggested it could be a variation on the Cape Seed Loaf.


After I spent some time seeing what Google had to offer on these subjects I concluded the two things they all had in common was a lot of seeds and no sourdough in sight. It seemed like a fun formula to play with, so I set out trying to come up with a reasonable sourdough version of a seed loaf.


By the end of February, I had a reasonably satisfactory loaf - on my fifth try. When I compared notes with Jaydot, I found that she had independently gotten a loaf that her sister in law found acceptable as well.


I picked up her use of caraway seed and maple syrup as something I wanted to try. So, I dropped the Chia seed and brown sugar I had used, and added her idea of maple syrup and caraway seed. Both proved their worth in the eating of my version number 6.


Number Six had nine (9) types of seed, two (2) types of nuts; six (6) types of flour plus maple syrup and toasted sesame seed oil. I was afraid to calculate the calorie count, but I am certain a person could gain weight on a diet of this bread and water, alone.



The loaf was 718 grams going into the oven and 665 grams at the time it came out of the oven. The instant internal temperature reading was 209ºF (98ºC).


The crumb was as nice, if not better, than the previous version 5 and both v-5 and v-6 were by far the best of the six loaves tested thus far. Texture wise, I feel the better crumb is due to the minimal kneading. The first 4 test loaves were all kneaded gently, but in a rather normal letter fold method common to most of my loaves. I felt that the extremely high nut and seed content did more damage to the gluten during kneading than could be offset by any benefits gained. So, in both v-5 and v-6, I basically switched to a no-knead method, and it seems to have made a major improvement in the openness of the crumb.



All six versions had excellent keeping properties, when kept at room temperature in a simple a bread box.


The sourdough was a 3 build levain using KAF AP flour, and was a baker's 94.2%.



The final rise for this loaf was 7 hours in a proof box at 82ºF( 27.8ºC). By that point it was pressing tightly against the FSFilm. I removed the FSFilm, scored top with 1 whole length center scoring. Bread pan place in a Turkey Pan. The bread pan was elevated from direct bottom contact by two SS knives.


The oven stones were removed from the cold oven. One cup of water was brought to a boil and the boiling water then poured into bottom of the turkey pan and the lid placed on at once, and the turkey pan and its contents were all placed in the cold oven on the lowest rack position. The oven was set to 450ºF (232º C).


With this fabricated "Dutch Oven" - formed from the turkey pan - resting at the lowest position, the constant heat of the electric oven's lower element, while raising the oven's internal heat to its highest setting, maintains the bottom of the "Dutch Oven" well above boiling temperature for 15 to 18 minutes. Steam visibly issues from the oven vent from about 3 minutes into the baking until about 18 minutes.


At 20 minutes, the Dutch Oven's lid was removed, oven heat set to 400ºF (204º C) for the balance of the baking, and the oven door held open by about 1/2" (12 mm) to vent any steam during the remaining 25 minutes of the baking. At the end of the total 45 minute baking, the oven was turned off and the loaf removed from both oven and bread pan. The loaf was placed on wire to cool for two hours. Then it was placed in a bread box at room temperature overnight, before being cut.


At this point, I have no ideas on what I may do different when I bake version 7. In fact, I might just repeat making this same formula, before trying any other possible improvements. Perhaps, that will change
but, for the moment, I am satisfied. ;-)


=====Update: March 18, 2011


Version 7 Seed Loaf has a few changes and , to my taste, is even better. A PDF with full details and photos can be seen at this link:


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_MScoZfDZkwZDNlNzk3ZjktYmQ3NC00YWZjLWI1MTgtOTg1MmMxNTM1NGZk&hl=en


=====


 


 


110307 Next blog:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22562/sourdough-crackers


 


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

 


Previous Blog:  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20032/1-little-2-little-3-little-chia-rye-loaves


 


Have your ever felt that the expression "Couldn't see the forest for the trees." applied to you?
I think that this may be a case where it really applied to me <Blush>


When I first read Shiao-Ping's blog on making a sourdough banana bread - Banana Pain au Levain (see link)
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14432/banana-pain-au-levain
I thought what a great gift such loaves would make for some of my friends. It certain was different from the usual gift. But, by the time I had finished the article, I found I was a bit concerned over two things that the author had experienced; first the hydration surprises she had encountered, and secondly, what she said about the slowness of the rising:
"dough appeared very sluggish.  It was almost as if my starter was finding it tough adjusting to bananas, "


Well, I went off and pursued other interests. However, I found my thoughts kept coming back to bananas, and to those two points that Shiao-Ping had raised. Checking on Google quickly revealed that the amount of water in bananas was closer to 75% than the 65% which she had initially assumed - base upon pumpkin percentages. Returning to the original blog, I found two others had already reported somewhat similar findings. Well, good. Most likely that cleared up the hydration issues, but what about my second issue - the slow rise?


Did the wee yeasty beasties really have problems with the addition of bananas in their diet? The more I consider this, the more interesting that question became for me. If you think I get interested in odd subjects, that's okay, others have mentioned that before.


I have spent a great amount of time studying my sourdough cultures and I have a very well establish baseline data set on my primary White Levain, which data I often use for comparisons. Suppose I take seed from that levain and build a variant levain, a Banana Flour Sour, at the same test hydration level that I used in establishing my baseline reference plots. Yes, I decided that was a clean way to get an initial handle on this slow rising point.


A Comparison


So, I took a seed from my primary White Levain (WL) and did a build/refresh containing as much banana as could be used while still maintaining the 100%HL . Maintaining that hydration level was necessary to match the WL reference data. The table below provides details.



     Table 1. Compositional breakdown of the 200 gram batches used on Day 0 through Day 8 of Banana Flour Sour at 100%HL testing



As soon as the refresh was mixed, the 200g test batch was place within my homemade temperature controlled chamber. The TC was set to maintain 80ºF (26.6ºC) +- about 1ºF. The level of the top edge of the levain was then recorded, and for every 15 minutes thereafter until the peak of the rise had been reached/passed, ending the Growth Phase.



      Figure 1. Comparing Average Rise of my Reference White Levain with the same WL Seed and a 67% Banana Puree + 33% AP Flour Refresh.


Certainly, at first reading of the data, Shiao-Ping's observation that "dough appeared very sluggish" was validated in the rise-time difference between the reference Lag and Growth Phases and those of the test Banana Flour Sour (BFS) culture.


One could argue that a good portion of the BFS Lag Phase could be explained by a difference between the average starting temperatures of the two cultures at test start, and I fully agree. However, that would not explain the difference in the Growth Phase slopes.


The temperature difference, just mentioned, resulted as follows. Both the WL reference and the BFS started from seed stock consisting of 200g of culture, which had undergone refreshment 24 hours prior, had been monitored through rise until the peak (Stationary Phase) had been reached, and then been returned to the refrigeration. The difference occurs in the refreshment temperatures. The WL was fed room temperature AP Flour and room temperature water, whereas, the BFS was feed 33% room temperature AP Flour (APF), plus refrigeration temperature banana puree (B) for the remaining 67% of its refreshment. There is no question that this difference would result is a longer Lag Phase for the BFS build. Hindsight is usually 20-20. But, this was not intended as a NASA grant application, and sliding the BFS curve to the left 30 or 45 minutes would affect the elimination of the "sluggish" nature of the rise slope.


A Bit of Back-slopping


Alright, there appeared to be less than euphoria on the part of the culture's beasties to feed on fruit - banana - rather than grain - wheat flour. Now, was this just a "fact-of-life", or could the culture's behavior shift if it were played with. To me, it seemed that the final height of the Growth Phase indicated that the banana was being used as material to created the CO2 desired, just at a slower rate. I have read the sugar, like salt, slows the growth rate. Certainly there was a lot more sugar in the new refreshment than the old.


If I simply repeated taking 100g of WL seed stock and adding the same 33% APF and 67% B (banana = B) as the refreshment, reasonably, I could expect pretty much the same curve, and that wasn't very informative. Whereas, back-slopping introduced two opposing factors. First, by using a portion of the previous build to act as the seed for the next build I could expect a lowering in the vigor of the BFS culture if B wasn't a viable food, and alternatively, I could expect an adaptation to the use of the B as a major food source if some of the beasties could handle it better than others - sort of a survival of the banana eaters. If B was really not a food for all the beasties, then the BFS culture should go downhill even faster, since, for the next several refreshments, the total % of B in each build would be increasing - Day 0 had a seed that was a pure water/APF composition, to which the 33% APF and 67% B was fed. Day 1 would have a seed that was a 100g of the residual of Day 0, to which the 33% APF and 67% B would serve as its refresh. So, each day would shift to a slightly higher % of B, until it peaked at a level 67% B total.


It looked as if the BFS culture had to go downhill if B was a poor food source for the beasties, and, on the other hand if it were a population mix, then I should see preferential growth of the B-eaters and resulting improvement in the rise slopes of the tests. Or at least, that was how it seemed to me.



                        Figure 2. The Rise Plots for Day 0 and 8 Days of Back-slopping with a Banana Flour Sourdough Culture.


Now, if one takes the starting temperature handicap that was mention earlier into account, it would appear that the BFS Day 7 and 8 are essentially equal to the reference WL data. I thought that this made it reasonable to think of the culture as now being happy to fed on either and both flour &or banana. In fact, after nine days of taking readings every 15 minutes, I was very eager to do a bread baking test, although, the addition of the BFS "disposable" daily 100g of culture, mix in with some a couple of white levains and a rye made for interesting and great sourdough waffles, and let me note that the wee yeasty beasties did not get all of the banana sugars. There was a lot of B-sugar that went into my waffles, as well (º0º)


The Banana Flour Sour Bake


In my usual fashion, I made one batch of dough, 1285g and split it into three, 428g parts. It took me time to bake the 3 loaves, just over a period of a week, in fact. The first and third loaves were done in a Dutch oven, with only their internal moisture for the steam. The second loaf was with steam and on parchment paper on the oven stones, but the temperatures match those given below for the DO loaves.


The two done in Dutch oven had preheated DO to near 500ºF (260ºC) and dropped to 410ºF (210ºC) as soon as the loaf was in the DO. After 20 minutes, the lid was removed, loaf turned out and replaced in the oven directly on the stones. The temperature was set down to 350ºF (177ºC) for 10 minutes and then turned off totally, while the door was cracked about ¼ inch (6mm) and the loaf left in for 10 addition minutes. The instant internal temperatures were ~ 207ºF (97ºC).



                 Table 2. Formula for Banana Flour Sour 3 Loaf Bakes Total of Banana 9% [ 6% water, 3% solids ]


The White Levain, BFS Levain and water were combined. Then the 2 flours mixed in and covered for 20 minutes. Total turned out into large bowl where the salt was added and worked in with 30 S&F followed with 30 minutes rest and another 2 sets of 30 S&F. At that point it was a bit over 2 hours and the dough was divided into 3 parts of 428g each in their individual 1L/1Qt oiled and covered plastic containers and placed in fridge. One loaf was used the next morning. Shaped and given 5 hours rise time and baked in a DO. Treatment of the third loaf was about the same 6 days later. The other loaf was made 3 days later, but shaped and formed in cloth-lined, clay loaf form.



                                                           First Dutch Oven Boule from WL+BFS Levains.



                                                             First Dutch Oven Boule's Crumb.



                                                            Second Boule - Steam & Stone from WL+BFS Levains.



                                                           Second Boule's Crumb



                                              Third Loaf, A Dutch Oven Boule - A Small Amount of Chia on Top.



                                Third Loaf's Crumb.


Yes, But.....


Baking each of the loaves went well. The crumb was fine, crusts great. The taste fine, with a slightly different flavor. Ah, but I would really be stretching the facts to say that I could taste anything that I would consider a banana flavor ! Well, there was only about 9% banana total in the loaves, and 6% of that was water. I guessed I'd just expected to much after eating those waffles with their great banana flavor, and that flavor coming only from the discards of the levain builds, and also being mix with a lot of other sourdough discards in the same batter.


The way I figured it, Shiao-Ping's Banana-Pain-au-Levain had about 38% banana in it. So, did I really expect 9% to overpower my little loaves?


Alright, how could I really load in the banana and still use my new found banana loving culture. If I added more banana, the hydration level (HL) was going to have to go above 100%HL, and a total banana based levain would have 25% solids (let that equal "flour") and the remaining 75% of the banana was water. A 75:25 ratio, or just plain 300%HL -WOW !!!



           Table 3. Details of the Five Builds to Reach Maintenance Level Pure Banana Starter 300%HL


A series of five builds gave a progression of hydration levels, starting at 100%HL, then 233, 285, 297, 299 and finally got me to a maintenance level of a Pure Banana Levain with 300%HL. This Pure Banana Levian seemed more viscous than I had expected. It even tripled on a rise and did not collapse, as a 100%HL flour levain would do. I found I enjoyed eating the discards directly with a spoon. The taste is like banana with a touch of vodka added to it.



                   Table 3. Formula for Bread Using 49% Starter, where the Starter was Pure Banana Levain @ 300%HL


Of course, I made a new bread ASAP. The method was a close match to the one Shiao-Ping gives for her Banana-Pain-au-Levain. I calculated her loaf as having 38% banana (solids plus water), and this formula yields a loaf the is 49% banana (solids plus water).


The mixing, shaping and baking all went as expected.



                                                           The 49% Banana Loaf Made with Pure Banana Levain @ 300%HL



                                         The crumb of 49% Banana Loaf



It was unbelievable! There was no discernible banana flavor, as least none that I could detect. It was a fine loaf, tasted fine. It did stay moist longer than most sourdough loaves. The crumb and crust were certainly in an acceptable range and the flavor was a bit different, but more towards the taste of rye than anything else.


As must be evident by this point in my "banana saga", this whole banana thing was getting to me. So, what to do next. I already had worked out a formula that would use no additional water, other than that from bananas. It had a Baker's % of 81.5% banana, all of which was in the form of Pure Banana Levain #300%HL. But, I decided that until I had a better handle on where had all the flavor gone, I could see little point in proceeding. What had Shiao-Ping done that I was missing? Well, the best way to attempt an answer to that was to bake her loaf as given in her blog. Something I no doubt should have done in the beginning - a fact now not lost upon. :-(



      Shiao-Ping's Banana Pain au Levain Formula Recast with the Levain Build



          Repeat of Shiao-Ping's Banana Pain au Levain



          The crumb from the Repeat of Shiao-Ping's Banana Pain au Levain


Guess what.... No banana flavor that I could detect. I could not believe it. I followed the posted formula and methods as close as anyone could expect. I knew I was missing something, but WHAT !!!


Lacking any better idea, I went back to the original posting, intending to read ever word again. There it was - it hit me like one of the trees had fallen on me - in that forest I had never noticed for all of the trees... The second sentence - "... the bananas in my house have gone sesame (ie, growing freckles) ..." I have been using fresh bananas. Generally, they still even had some green at their stems.


Well, my next attempts will need to wait, until the bananas I have just purchased, have gone beyond sesame!


In my own very weak defense of missing the obvious, let me say that the only use I have ever made of bananas in baking had been in a 70 year old banana cookie recipe that I came across some time ago. In making those, I take fresh bananas, slice them into 1/4" thick rounds, and freeze them for a day, and then let them thaw in the fridge. They turn into a dark brown mush that a simple hand-held blender with single whisk-like blade can whip into a smooth mush. So, I carried this method over into this pursuit of the elusive (for me) banana flavored loaf.


It has actually been a worthwhile endeavor, I have new waffle alternatives, and a most unusual "Banana foaming levain desert" as a result, of my explorations. I also certainly have lots of new information to think about. There is one thing I am sure of, and that is that I will bake a banana flavored bread - no matter how long it takes.... LOL


RonRay


 


****************************************** Appended 101116 The Banana Saga Concluded長篇故事



 


Yesterday, the bananas had been aging for 2 weeks, since purchased. Even within the thin plastic grocery bag I could smell the strong banana scent fairly well. As I removed the plastic, two of the eight bananas fell off their common stem. They were “well passed ripe”. I made 484g of banana puree with them, and no water was required to make it, so there was 40g of water, that I was temped to drop from the formula for this batch of dough. I mentally chastised myself for that thought. I would make the closest match I could to the original Banana Pain au Levain in Shiao-Ping's blog. And that is exactly what I did.


 



     A Simple Restating of Shiao-Ping's Formula with the 75%HL Build Combined.


While I did stick to the formula values, and essentially the same procedures, I did differ in the baking method. Some of teketeke's experimenting with alternatives to Dutch Ovens had interested me (See link) http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143159 and other entries in the thread below. So, when I saw a sale on turkey baking pans / turkey ovens, I bought one.


I have a 2 quart cast iron Dutch Oven and an Emerilware Enameled Cast Iron 6-Quart Trinity Pot. The 2 quart is perfect for most of my boules, but the Emerilware 6-Quart is both too deep and too heavy for me to safely throw in and out of a screaming hot oven. Also, being as deep as it is, makes turning out a high hydration dough from a brotform into such a deep drop does too much damage to be practical. Lurking over Mini, Daisy and Akiko's posts gave me an idea, which I wanted to try and this 864g loaf, now rising in a brotform, was just the thing to try the idea out on. I cut the handle off of an old Teflon frying pan that was destine for recycling, so that it would fit within the turkey pan/oven. This would hold the loaf and there was room outside of it to add a small amount of boiling water just before closing the lid.



       Turkey Oven and Lid with Old Frying Pan - Less Handle Inside


 



       Risen Loaf in Brotform about to be placed into Handel-less Old Frying Pan



      Loaf in Frying Pan in Turkey Oven - Ready for about 90g of boiling water in Turkey Pan


 



      Finished Banana Bread Loaf


 


Crumb of Banana Bread Loaf


Ah, banana scent floating from the baking bread.... At last ;-) And old, old bananas was all it needed...


Crumb is rather moist, but very tasty. It was not as strong a banana flavor as I'd expected from the heavy scents that came off the puree and again during the mixing, rising or the baking, but it surely is enough, and would well and pleasantly do for now.  I found it a nice bread to add to the increasingly long bake list.  An a happy ending for the conclusion of my Banana Saga.


Ron


======== 101118 Note:


**********You might enjoy checking out the forum topic of Wild Yeast at:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts


Ron 雷朗


Next Loaf Baking: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-143857

 


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

*** Previous blog: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19777/calculating-baker


 


I have a problem with my bread - I cannot eat it soon enough. I usually need a second, or third day to finish a loaf. It used to be even worse when I made the loaf sizes that most formulae call for, but for some time now, I have split the dough into 3 equal parts, or 2 parts if the batch came to less than 2 pounds (900g). I like loaves about the size of Susan's Simple Sourdough http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13771/simple-sourdough-909


The three loaves below were made this past week. The dough was put together on Saturday evening and the first loaf was baked the Sunday. Tuesday I did the second loaf and the third on Saturday, making the third bake a full week from the initial mixing.


Originally, the formula was based upon Flo Makanai's 1.2.3, Sourdough http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9346/123-easy-formula-sourdough-bread but I found the over 71% hydration level a bit too wet the first time I tried it. So, I started playing around. This time, I added the Chia seeds that Shiao-Ping first drew my attention to in her blog http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18407/chia-sourdough-two-ways and I continue to experiment, but this version is quite good - as is. The Chia seed gave it a new nuttiness to the taste experience. The next time, I think I will increase the amount of Chia and also increase the rye flour, but that can wait a bit.


I did the initial steps Saturday evening, and on Sunday finished enough bread sourdough for 3, small loaves. The dough had white bread flour - 66% Baker's %; dark rye flour - 13% Baker's %; dark Chia seed - 6% Baker's %; flaxseed meal - 2% Baker's %; and a 100% hydration level white sourdough starter with 13% Baker's % in the flour content coming from the starter .


Saturday evening at 7:30 PM I mixed the levain in large bowl. Added all water and mixed until smooth, then added dark rye, salt and mixed well. I had meant to hold off on the salt until the morning, but included it before thinking. Finally, I added the AP Flour. I let the dough rest 30 minutes covered, then turned it out on the work-surface. It is a very sticky dough at this stage. I used a plastic scrapper and my hands to flatten all the dough to about 1 to 1½ inches thickness. I then sprinkled over the flattened dough all the flaxseed meal and chia seed, Once that was finished I did a series of letter folds with help of a scrapper and some flour dusting to reduce the sticking to my hands. Finally, I worked the dough into a thick log and dividing it into 3, equal 423g pieces. Each piece was then formed into a ball and placed in separate 2L/2 qt. oiled, plastic doubler, lidded and placed in fridge @ 9 PM.


Sunday morning about 8:00 AM, I removed the first 423g dough from fridge. Gave it an hour to warm some, while I had breakfast, and then flattend the dough into a rectangular sheet of less than a 1/2 inch (12 mm) and began letter foldings. I repeated this 3, or 4 times with rests of 10 minutes between each group of folds. About 10 AM, I formed the dough into ball and used a bench knife, turned at 45º to press its pointed corner into center of ball's top making a deep cut. I rotated blade 90º and repeated this action. Hoping that after the dough's final rising, that these cuts might act as the crack lines when the dough was baked in the Dutch oven, I firmed the ball and placed it in a floured, cloth-lined brotform, with the dough's cut-side down. After a 6 hour rise, the dough was turn-out directly into the preheated Dutch oven, lid-covered, and returned to the hot oven for 20 minutes, then uncovered for an aditional 20 minutes, making a 40 minute total in 425ºF oven. When removed, the center temperature was 207ºF. The loaf was cooled on wire rack.


Below is that first of those three loaves, along with the Dutch oven that it was bake in.


                                                          Dutch oven baked sourdough loaf #1


This loaf was formed by dropping the raised dough into a preheated 450ºF Dutch oven, covered and replace in the oven, then set for 425º and baked 20 minutes with the lid on the Dutch oven followed by another 20 minutes with no cover on the Dutch oven,


Cooled and cut, the crumb can be seen in the image below, and tasted great. The Chia seed added a nice nuttiness to the flavor.


                                                    Loaf #1 had a reasonable openness to the crumb, but I would have liked it a bit more open.


The remaining two chunks of dough had been surface covered with olive oil and place in individual 2L/2qt. covered containers and stored in a fridge at 33 to 35ºF.


Before getting to the second loaf, I will digress to mention that one of my Silpat sheets has become so laden with the oils from hundreds of cookie bakings that dough no longer sticks to it. Further down, when I get down to the preparation of the third loaf, I will include a photo of the dough kneaded to a 1/4 inch ( 6 mm ) thickness with no flour dusting, nor oil coating - other than that which has permeated the Silpat sheet.


The second loaf was made two days later, on Tuesday. It was taken from the fridge at 8 AM, immediately palm-pressed into a rectangular sheet of about 3 to 4 mm in thickness. It was then rolled across the narrow dimension, flattened, and folded in half, lengthwise, seam sealed, and rolled smooth into a final baguette shape.


                                                        The same Silpat sheet makes a great baker's couche - here with the 7 hour proofed loaf.


It was permitted to rise for about 7 hours. Then it was slashed, sprayed with water and appears in next image, just as it was about to go into the oven's heat.


             The second Bread of the 3 loaves, on parchment paper and ready to be place in the oven on the hot oven stones.


Once placed in the preheated oven, on the hot oven stones at 450ºF, it was steamed for the first 10 minutes. At 20 minutes, the temperature was dropped to 425º and baked for another 20 minutes - total of 40 minutes.


It was then removed and cooled for an hour and a half. It looked like this:


                                           The well caramelized loaf #2


The flavor was even better than the first loaf had been. The well caramelized crust having a beautiful nuttiness from the Chia seeds combining with the rye flavors. Despite the extended time in the fridge, sourness was quite mild. The crumb, as you can see in the next photo, was a bit more open than it was in the first loaf, baked in the Dutch oven.


                                                        Crumb of second loaf.


Below is a detailed shot of the crust, and the dark Chia seeds can be seen very clearly in the crust.


                                              Close-up of a portion of the second loaf's crust, showing the dark Chia seeds.


I am temped to do a painting based on the image. :-)


The third loaf was made on Saturday, one full week from the initial preparations of the dough. Just after 8 AM, I took the dough from the fridge and immediately turned it out and palm-pressed the very cold - less than 40ºF ( 4ºC ) - dough into a rectangular sheet with the average thickness about 3 to 4 mm ( 1/8 inch ). I had decided to add a bit of bread spice to this loaf, and I considered the thin sheet was the best way to do that at this point. In the photo below, which was prior to adding the spice, the dark Chia seed stand out clearly.


                              The dough for the third loaf, preparatory to the addition of a bit of bread spice.


The bread spice was spread across the dough surface and then I started letter folds in the long axis. No, added oil, nor flour dusting was required for the cold dough on this much-used Silpat sheet. You can judge the dough thickness in the next image, taken at the first start of the initial fold.


                                   Closing the bread spice into the dough with the beginning of a couple letter folds.


Following a set of only two folds, the second at right angles to the first, the dough rested 15 minutes and then was final shaped.


                                      Final shaped batard prior to a 7 hour rise.



                              Following the 7 hour rise and my butchering the attempted decorative leaf slashing :-(


The loaf was turned out of the cloth-line brotform onto parchment paper and peel. Slashed in a poor attempt to form a leaf-line branchlet along the length of the loaf. It was sprayed with water and inserted into the 475ºF oven ( 245ºC ) with the parchment paper onto the preheated stones. A cup of boiling water was added to the oven's bottom steam pan at the same time. Three additional sprayings were given during the first 10 minutes of the baking. After 20 minutes, the temperature was reduced to 425ºF and the steam pan checked to be sure it was empty, and the oven door cracked to allow any remaining steam to escape during the last 15 minutes of the bake. After a total time of 35 minutes in the oven, the loaf removed and the instant read temperature in the loaf was 207º.


                                                         Finished third loaf.


The loaf was cooled for an hour and a half before cutting. Below is a photo of the crumb, which is about the way I like it for a general purpose sandwich, or jam on toast bread. The taste now has a fuller sour tang to blend with rye, Chia, spice flavors. A very satisfying


                                           View of the crumb in the third and final loaf from this dough batch.


taste for my jaded palette ;-)


Now, the big question for me is just what do I want to mix today?


 


Next Blog: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Calculating Recipe File 


(update 100928-4 PM *** I finished and sent out copies to those who had made a request - Ron)


After posting the Conversion Calculator Example - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19720/conversion-calculator-example -
I thought that there seemed to be some who would find an expanded version helpful, as well. At my age, it is easy to have great ideas - the trick is remembering them tomorrow. I find that my computers are my most reliable reminders of the ideas I have been fooling with. So, quite naturally, I have accumulated a lot of computer aids to my baking activities. Without a doubt, the way I "think" about any bread formula that I'm interested in, would be considered overkill by most others, but hey, it is my kitchen and my time, and yes, my pleasure. The result of this line of thought was a watered down version of what I use to think through a bread's formula. I cut out some - like calorie considerations and overall percentage calculations - and added in aids for those who are not that used to baker's percentages and hydration levels. I hope it may help in seeing how they fit into the overall recipe/ formula.


Here is a peek at what I came up with as a "Calculating Recipe File". The first image is an example of how someone might use it to examine bread formula. The second image is what they could maintain as their Master file, from which they would use a copy for creating recipe files.


For me, one of the greatest benefits is that I can have two, or more different files on the screen at the same time for comparisons (not true in Excel) because the spreadsheets in the free Open Office program permits multiple spreadsheets to be open at the same time. Not only can they be open, but you can copy material from one into another. For example, the last time you baked a loaf, you were less that totally pleased. You save a copy with a new name "2nd try" and open that beside the original. Make your considered changes in the new file - even note what your reasons were. Print a copy out and go start the your bread making efforts.


The 1st 4 columns permit you to indicate which of 4 categories the ingredient belongs in - Ref. Only, Flour, Water, Other. Notice that this allows you to parse the sourdough into the flour and water categories for hydration level information by only referencing the total strater entry. The 4th and 5th columns are where you name the ingredient and provide its weight reference - in grams per cup. The cup, Tbs, and tsp columns are where you play to create the value you want in the M (grams) and N (ounce) columns - Note ounces are only for info, and not used. As you run down the ingredient entries, the last 6 columns and the Percent Hydration Level (%HL) are calculated for you so that when the last entry is made, you already have the categorized amounts columns and the Bakers percentages in two sets of 3 column pairs - the 1st 3 by in grams, and the last 3 in Baker's Percentages. I think I would have been very pleased to have some tool like this when I was first trying to wrap my head around all of these considerations.



These images have been updated 100926 15:05 to show the Excel version after modifications.


This is just an example of what one might enter into a file.  The Master Blank is shown below, and that is what one would start from in using this form of Calculating Recipe File.  The Master Blank should have its [Properties] option changed to set the [Read Only] option as ON. Then one opens the Master and saves it with different "new work" file name. If you forget and attempt to modify the Master, you will be reminded that it is Read Only. Thus, you are much less likely to find that you have accidentaly destroyed your only Master Blank.



 


These images are in the Excel screen format, but if viewed in Open Office, there would be still be horizontal lines in the areas with background shading. For anyone using the free Open Office Spreadsheet, this program is available Open Office as well as Excel, and preferred by me, as it permits multiple files to be opened at the same time for cross referencing.


********* Updated 100928-4PM


I have finished the "Getting Started" write-up for "Calculating Recipe File". For those wishing a copy, send an e-mail with "TFL-CRF" in the subject line to - Ron@ronray.us .



I will send you the following collection of files:


1/ [Excel] "Ounces per Cup Baking Calculator": It just might be useful with the others - at times, so it is included.


2/ [Excel] "Grams per Cup Baking Calculator": It just might be useful with the others - at times, so it is included.


3/ [Word] "Getting Started with Calculating Recipe File": Hopefully with enough information to get you on your way in using the Calculating Recipe File.


4/ [Excel] "Excel_Master Calculating Recipe File": This is the Excel version of the Bread Formula program. It differs from the next file only in some additional background colors not being used in Excel.


5/ [Open Office] "Open Office_Master Calculating Recipe File": This is the Open Office version of the Bread Formula program. It differs from the previous file only in some additional background colors being used that are not in the Excel version.


end update ========== 100928.


Ron


*** Next blog:  101010


       http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20032/1-little-2-little-3-little-chia-rye-loaves


 


 

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