The Fresh Loaf

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Dough Temp with Intensive Mixing

DanAyo's picture

Dough Temp with Intensive Mixing

The dough mention was an enriched sandwich loaf by TX Farmer. The only tweak was a 5% PFF was added to the formula.

The Final Dough Flour was kept overnight in the fridge (~38-39F)
The Tangzhong was also refrigerated overnight
Final Dough liquid was cold milk
And the whole eggs were are cold

The above was mixed intensively for 28 minutes at various speed. Estimate average speed at 5-6 on a ten speed Famag Spiral Mixer. The final DT after mixing was 73.4F.

I'm not sure how this would compare to a planetary mixer such as a Kitchenaid, but thought this info might be of interest to others.

By the way - according to TX Farmers instructions, the dough could have gone a bite further. The gluten was extremely well formed and beautiful. One day I really need to push the machine kneading to completely over worked. Won’t know how far you can go until you go too far.

HERE is the link to Bread. One loaf baked with the cover on the other with cover off.

idaveindy's picture

What was room temp?


DanAyo's picture

Estimate 76F

Ming's picture

Not sure what are you asking with this post Danny but one thing that I noticed was the speed of your mixing, which sounds pretty intensive indeed. I have the same mixer and I only use speed 0 (or 1), and my dough usually come out of it at around 75-degree F in 15-20 min of mixing if I use cold out of the fridge preferment (95% of it) with room temp water. I can't imagine jacking the speed up to 5 or 6 as it would heat up my dough pretty quickly before I am happy with the consistency. 

Richard Lemieux's picture
Richard Lemieux

I use a procedure similar to yours: Pre-ferment spends the night in a cool place and the tangzhong stays in the fridge for the night. The pre-ferment is at 60F and the tangzhong at 40F when I start the mixer. I mix over 600 turns and the end temperature ends close to 75F. The bread has a nice volume and it tastes good.

Unfortunately I was a bit careless when I did the last batch and the temperature of both the pre-ferment and the tangzhong was around 70F when I started mixing and the temperature at the end of mixing was over 80F. I put the dough in the fridge for half an hour and I stretched it to lower the temperature. Then I made the mistake to do the proofing in a warm place. The result was a bread with small volume and an after-taste.

I think my sourdough ends up with too much gluten breaking enzymes when I let the dough Temperature reach 80F and the bread is not as good. I am venturing this as an explanation but I am just guessing really. I am new to bread making.

justkeepswimming's picture

Like you, I have pretty much settled in to a utilitarian pan bread, though we prefer be whole grain. That fresh milled flavor made with SD... Addicted!

Mariana commented on a thread a while back that might have some good information for you. See what you think here. I know she has also talked about using a food processor to develop gluten, and that goes much much faster. Edit to add - turns out her food processor comments are further down in that same thread, here. There are comments about dough temps as well, might be something in there that applies to/you can build off of for your current research? 


DanAyo's picture

Hey Mary!

I’ve only used a food processor for the test Mariana described in those links. The dough was highly developed and it was a great learning exercise. I do mix pizza dough with a FP, but it seems way to violent for my bread doughs.

Even though intensive mixing in the Famag takes a long time, it is very gentle on the dough.

The bread that was last intensively mixed is proofing at this time. Boy, the gluten was so strong (highly elastic), it was difficult to roll it out for shaping. Pushing the air out (degassing) of it was difficult. Here is the same bread that was baked a few days ago. At this time my goal is not large holes in the crumb.

Update -
HERE is the BREAD that was mixed in the OP.

Doc.Dough's picture

Danny - The temperature rise is related to how well coupled the mixer is to the dough.  So a small dough piece in your Famag at high speed might get the same amount of energy deposited in it as a larger batch at a lower speed.  It is about the impedance match between the machine and the dough.  I was playing around on Sunday with a 1700g batch of 68% hydration sourdough with 12% pff and looking at how long it took to get proper gluten development at speed 0.  I start it at 60% hydration so that it doesn't take forever and mix for 4 minutes to combine the room temperature flour, water, starter, DM, fructose, and 1g of IDY; then 30 min autolyse; 4 min @0 to mix in 20g salt, 6 min of gluten development @0; then 18 min @0 to bassinage 75g of water in. The initial dough temp after combining the ingredients was 74.7°F and at the end of bassinage it was 79.5°F so not much increase but close to my target of 80°F for BF.  But I was not making much progress in terms of gluten development so I moved up to speed 2 for 11 min to get the windowpane I was looking for then 1 min @ speed 4 to finish it off. Final dough temp was 83.7°F which settled down to 81°F by the time I pulled 30g for the aliquot jar and was ready to put it in the box to BF at a controlled 80°F.

The question becomes whether I could get the same result at speed 5 or 6 and less time.  Perhaps next time I will try that approach.  This was ready to divide after 1:30 of BF, then 30 min rest, 10 min to shape, 2:00 final counter proof and bake without any retard. I would normally proof longer but I was testing to see if final baked volume suffers much from going to the oven at 70ml of aliquot jar volume (starting at 30ml so a total of 130% volume increase from mix to bake). These were nice big puffy mini-batards.

DanAyo's picture

The TDW for the kneading described above was 1900g. I have also noticed that the Famag is much more efficient as the weight of the dough increases and fills more of the bowl.

Doc.Dough's picture

You mix 1900g from about 44°F to 74°F in 28 min at speed 5-ish so about 1 degree per minute and because the temperature goes up the viscosity goes down so the temperature rate at the beginning of the mix was probably a little faster than later in the process.  I mixed a smaller batch for a longer time (~44 min) and see about a 10°F rise or 0.25°F per minute at an average that is a lot closer to speed 1 than speed 2.  A lot of variables, but I would expect that energy transfer is proportional to the square of the mixer speed so a doubling of speed (0 to 4 is 100 RPM to 200  RPM) would be a factor of four and your 1-deg/min vs 0.25 °F/min is close to a factor of 4 so it roughly makes sense. The question of what a higher BF temperature does for the dough is probably a legitament one to pose.  Somebody has done that reasearch so we just need to find it.