The Fresh Loaf

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Another Stab at S.F. Sourdough

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Another Stab at S.F. Sourdough

I've decided to take another stab at S.F. sourdough, this time using a stiff starter and following the second of two recipes posted several years ago by Doc Dough:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17730/divine-inspirationfor-me-it-way-larraburu-brother039s-sf-sd-what-was-it-you#comment-176197

My first task was to make a stiff sponge using some liquid starter I had stored in the refrigerator. The recipe calls for:

100 parts (first clear) flour (Hi-gluten)

46-52 parts water

so about 52% hydration.

The next step is:

Make up and hold 7-8 hrs. at 80°F

My improvised proofing box is thermostatically controlled, but there is no control over humidity. I placed my 52% hydration sponge in the proofer. The sponge was in a small howl covered with a kitchen towel. I came back 8 hours later and the sponge had dried out to a significant degree. There was a thick dry crust on the outside.

How can I prevent this crusting over? Are there humidity-controlled proofing boxes for the home baker or do I need to do something else?

In the past I've made sourdough using a liquid starter and the results were just OK, but the bread was never near sour enough. It was just medium sour. I'm trying again using a stiff starter and following more closely the recipe posted by Doc Dough.

In past experiments I've achieved a wonderfully sour replica of S.F. sourdough in flavor. In order to do this I've had to way overproof the dough. The dough turned to goo due to proteolysis of the gluten and the loaf was unacceptable. I baked the gooey, overproofed dough anyway and the flavor was definitely there.

Thank you.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

One amazon.com user reports the following about the $195 Brod & Taylor proofing box:

The humidity comes from water in a tray that you set below the rising dough. You could leave the water tray empty. You can set a temperature, but no, you cannot set a percent humidity.

So if all it takes is a water tray inside the chamber, no point in spending $195. My improvised proofing box consists of an empty toaster over with an incandescent light bulb inside. The light bulb is plugged into a thermostatically-controlled switch which maintains a fairly constant temperature of 30° C (86° F). Don't laugh — it works.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Het Chris!

Use either a plastic shower cap or plastic stretch wrap to cover the bowl. The little tray in the Brod & Taylor doesn’t really do much, IMO.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Good to know that a tray of water doesn't do much, thank you.

I learned that the amount of water vapor released is proportional to the surface area of the water. I had an 8" x 8" baking dish which I put in the bottom of the (unplugged) toaster oven. It fit perfectly and I filled it with water. But you recommend sealing the bowl. It turns out I have a plastic lid for this bowl which fits and seals nicely, so I'm using that now. Of course a commercial bakery would use a purpose-built proofing box. They run between $1,000+ and $5,000+, so I'll stick with the plastic bowl and lid.

Doc Dough's post has two formulae which differ greatly in the amount of sponge used in the final dough and the final proofing time and temperature. I have a feeling the first recipe from Cereal Chemistry is in error, so I'm trying the second one in Tables I and II. Below are the proportions I've come up with for a small boule:

SPONGE

43 g flour - 100%

21.5 g water - 50%

Levain (50 - 100 parts previous sponge) or liquid levain

Total sponge weight - 64.5 g

Ferment for 10 hr at 80°F (27°C)

DOUGH

43 g flour, all-purpose - 100%

22 g water - 60%

64.5 g sponge - 100%

Total dough weight - 129.5 g

2.6 g salt - 2% - 1/2 tsp

Dough rests for 1 hr

Make up – approx. 1 hr

Proof 8 hr. 86°F (30° C)

 Combined proofing/resting time (sponge and dough)

20 hours

Here in southern California I've been buying store-bought sourdough rather than baking my own which wasn't quite up to snuff. It's funny, but in the bay area the old-school sourdoughs had hard, crackly crusts. Here in southern California the good sourdoughs have soft crusts. I don't know what's up with that. I found a brand with pretty good flavor and store-bought saves me the muss and fuss of baking my own.

In San Francisco they have Boudin sourdough. The last time I tried it I detected a distinct vinegary taste, so I'm thinking they might be spiking their dough with vinegar, figuring the tourists on Fisherman's Wharf won't know the difference. I certainly do.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Does this mean that you have abandoned the lactic and acetic acid addition method that you had previously described?

I tried your method a couple of times but I never seem to have gotten it right.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Does this mean that you have abandoned the lactic and acetic acid addition method that you had previously described?

Yes and no.

That was the subject of a USDA patent. It called for using acid whey for the lactic acid which can be obtained by straining plain yogurt, and adding white vinegar. The first time I tried it, the bread came out really sour. After that, I was never able to achieve the same degree of sourness. I could never figure out why. So I tried using commercial liquid lactic acid and it turned out better but it still doesn't knock your socks off with its sourness. Too much lactic acid results in a peculiar-tasting bread.

In the meantime, I found a sliced, soft-crust sourdough from the Old Town bakery in Rancho Cucamonga, CA. It is very much like the old Pioneer sourdough from Venice, CA. Right away you can smell the lactic acid aroma. It is available at our local markets and is wonderfully satisfying, and it's easier to purchase a loaf than to bake my own. It is not the same as Larraburu/Parisian/Colombo, etc. from San Francisco, but is a more than adequate substitute.

Having retired, I got to thinking about the SFSD formula which has been published in several places, including this board. I've been trying to figure out what the S.F. bakeries were doing to achieve the sourness they did that I wasn't doing.

Those old bakeries were baking 24/7. They rebuilt their sponge 3 times per day, every 8 hours. I bake only occasionally and there is no way I could maintain a sponge around the clock like that. There seems to be a cycle of 8 - 10 hours of proofing time each for the sponge and the dough and various rest periods, so I thought I would try that. The total of baking and resting comes to 20 hours for sponge and dough combined.

I have achieved great sourness with extended proofing but the dough invariably overproofs and turns to unworkable goo. The sponge-and-dough method divides the proofing into roughly 10 hours for the sponge and 10 hours for the dough, so I'm giving that a try.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I made up my sponge according to the following formula:

43 g flour - 100%

22 g water - 50% - 52%

1 tsp liquid levain

Ferment for 10 hr at 86°F (30°C) in a sealed container.

After 10 hours of fermentation in a sealed container (thanks, Danny!) the sponge had not dried out and there was no crusting over. The sponge was gooey and VERY, VERY sticky. I measured it onto a piece of parchment paper on a scale and scraped it into the mixer bowl. Next time I will measure it directly into the mixer bowl to avoid getting sticky sponge on my fingers as much as possible.

I mixed in the dough flour, salt and water and a dough ball was formed which was allowed to rest for one hour. It is now in my proofing box for the next 10 hours.

The flour was unbleached all-purpose except for the liquid levain which was made with clear flour. The liquid levain lives indefinitely in the refrigerator.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

This whole effort was a bust.

Apparently my starter died while sitting in the fridge.

I've had it with starters. Back to the starterless recipe

albacore's picture
albacore

You really need to be refreshing your starter on a weekly basis if you want to keep it healthy and active.

When was it last refreshed?

 

Lance

doughooker's picture
doughooker

When was it last refreshed?

Way too long ago. I should have refreshed the liquid levain before this bake. There was a lot of hooch (alcohol) on top of the starter which I stirred in. The refreshment adds another 8 hours to the process.

I stirred in some first clear flour and it seems a lot healthier now, not the dark gray it was previously.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I tried your method a couple of times but I never seem to have gotten it right.

What was wrong with it?

alcophile's picture
alcophile

The first time, I did it at 100 g of flour scale (used KA bread flour). I had trouble mixing in the IDY and the salt and ended up with a flattish little boule.

On subsequent tries, I dissolved the salt in a small amount of the total water and was also able to mix in the IDY better. The bread behaved normally, but the flavor was not very sour. I lived in the Bay Area 1984–1989 and had Acme, Semifreddi's, and Boudin SD breads, so I'm somewhat familiar with the flavor. Now I find the La Brea SD from the grocer to be passable.

I purchased some of the Mezzoni SD flavor powder and used it once, but I think the bread needed a greater quantity of the powder; it also was not sour enough. I know it has acids other than acetic and lactic, but I have seen journal articles that show that sometimes malic and fumaric acids, etc., are found in SD breads. The quantities are small but sometimes that can make the difference.

Have you thought about using malt vinegar instead of white? There might be some other flavor notes that might contribute.

The other thought I had might be to use the CLAS method championed by Yippee and others. I haven't made this starter yet, but it might be worth a try.

Otherwise, I like SD rye breads or whole grain breads that I make myself.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I re-read the USDA patent for sourdough production. The quantity of vinegar is much higher in the patent (7%; 7 g × 0.05 = 0.35 g) than in your recipe (1%; 1 g × 0.05 = 0.05 g). Also, the ratio of lactic/acetic acid is 17.6 in your recipe, but 1.6 in the patent. I assume that you are using 5% acidity vinegar and 88% lactic acid and I’m assuming the TA of the whey was only from lactic acid (25 g × 0.024 = 0.576 g). The lactic/acetic acid ratio found in the Cereal Chemistry article was 2.8 (dough) and 3.1 (bread).

Are my estimates from the patent correct?

Was there a reason not to use the higher levels of acids in your recipe?

I might try the method again using higher amount of acids. Do you use AP or bread flour? And does it make a difference?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Could you please post a link to the version of my recipe you are using? The numbers you gave in your post don't sound right.

Thank you.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

This is the recipe that I followed:

https://visualhotbed.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_5.html

If you have a more current version, please let me know. I'm also going to try to calculate/estimate the acid content of the Larraburu SD based on the Galal, et al, Cereal Chem. article. I'm going to use the µeq/g data presented in Tables I and II.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I lived in the Bay Area 1984–1989 and had Acme, Semifreddi's, and Boudin SD breads, so I'm somewhat familiar with the flavor.

Actually, you're not. I've sampled all of those and they're only remotely authentic. The old-school bakeries are long extinct. The gold standard was Larraburu but the bakery closed in 1976 largely due to mismanagement. Parisian was a close second. Colombo and Toscana were in Oakland. I grew up on the peninsula in the '60s and '70s. Those brands were on all the supermarket shelves during that era. My mother always kept a few loaves of Larraburu in the freezer.

Acme comes close but it's too mild. Boudin has a distinct vinegary taste. I'm thinking maybe they spike the dough with vinegar.

From a business standpoint, sourdough baking is inefficient due to the long proofing times involved. The workers are on the clock and idle while they wait for the dough to ferment. This is an incentive for bakeries to cut corners, cut proofing times and/or add souring agents so they can turn out more loaves per unit of time. It's all about $$$. I saw this happen with the Pioneer bakery here in soCal. I've sampled La Brea bakery's "sourdough" with a friend and we both agreed it had no flavor. My friend also grew up with the old-school SFSD's.

I'm going to try my recipe again after a hiatus from baking to see if I can find a reason why people don't have success with it. It works for me so why can't someone else duplicate it? After all, you're adding acids directly to the dough. The amount of vinegar in the recipe comes directly from the USDA lab and the amount of lactic acid was determined by me experimentally.

Malt vinegar is an interesting idea.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Was Boudin "faking it" already by the mid-1980s? I know it was long ago, but I don't remember their bread having a vinegary flavor. It had a more rounded sour that I would associate with lactic acid (often described as tart) rather than acetic acid (sour). I also vaguely remember having some Boudin SD when visiting family in the area in the early 1970s and I thought the 1980s version was similar.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

With any SD process you simply can't expect to achieve the same result in one hit. All processes are cyclical and that is what matters. Chemical properties will shift as will the microflora as the repetition takes place.

I would opt to seed the next run with your leavened dough as the instructions alluded was an option and bake daily, see where things end up after several days...

I.e. Seed the next sponge with the previous days leavened dough.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Hi Michael -

Seed the next sponge with the previous days leavened dough.

Not a bad idea, but baking every day is not a practical option for me, and I don't want to discard a lot of starter every day.

I'm going to revisit the lactic-acid-and-vinegar recipe. Whey is 0.58% lactic acid, so I figured out the correct proportion from the USDA patent.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Yeah, but you don't have to bake every day... A reserved piece of dough should last fairly well for several days in the refrigerator. I think such a process is workable, and I think it might give some really good results too!

End of the day it is your time and I'll let you be the master of it. I must admit I am curious as to what the result would be and such information would be a valuable contribution to community..

phaz's picture
phaz

In regards to first paragraph - the method is more than workable - it happens to be the best and easiest way. If you're baking on an at least semi regular basis - it's even better! And what is this discard I hear about. Enjoy! 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

In regards to first paragraph

Which first paragraph are you referring to?

phaz's picture
phaz

C above

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Wow, that recipe was way off. How did that happen? My apologies for any inconvenience. No wonder you didn't taste any sourness! Anyway, I've updated it:

https://visualhotbed.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_5.html

I used the USDA baker's percentages from their patent. I looked up the amount of lactic acid in acid whey (0.58%) and calculated the amount of 88% liquid lactic acid to use: 0.24 grams, so you will need a precise scale. This works out to 5 - 6 drops from an eyedropper.

NOTE: I have not test-baked this yet so I can't vouch for it yet. Also, let it cool completely.

A further complication: doctor says no salt so I used salt substitute (potassium chloride). Salt substitute is good for a lot of things but bread baking isn't one of them. You need real salt. I'm off to pick up some real (non-iodized) salt and do a test bake. Fortunately I won't have to proof it for 20 hours.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Your current recipe does have the patent quantity of vinegar, but the amount of lactic acid seems too low. It now has significantly more acetic acid (0.35%BP) than lactic acid (0.14%BP). You had noted that the Larraburu bread had a more lactic acid-forward flavor.

Unfortunately, the patent is not completely clear about the quantity of LA, specifically the 2.4% TA in the whey. Does this mean 2.4 g acid per 100 g whey? That corresponds to an LA/AA ratio of 1.7 in the dough.

This is where it gets complicated. Galal, et al, found an LA/AA ratio of 2.8 in the Larraburu dough. The TTA for the dough was 145 µeq/g dry weight; I estimate this would be 1.0–1.3%BP TTA.

Using the 2.8 ratio and the USDA %AA, that would correspond to 0.98%BP (0.35% AA × 2.8 = 0.98%) for LA on a weight basis (TTA = 1.33%BP).

It is also possible that the Galal ratio is based on the ratio µeq of acid. Using that TTA and the ratio of LA/AA, I estimate that the LA amount would be 0.91%BP and the AA amount would be 0.22%BP (TTA = 1.13%BP). I can show my calculations if you’re interested, but I believe my estimates are in line with the Larraburu dough.

I think it could be interesting to compare four possible recipes:

  • as written, 0.14%BP LA/0.35%BP AA
  • USDA 1.7 ratio, 0.60%BP LA/0.35%BP AA
  • Galal-USDA, 0.98%BP LA/0.35%BP AA
  • Galal-Larraburu, 0.91%BP LA/0.22%BP AA.

P.S. I have been replacing 25–40% of the salt in bread recipes with NoSalt and I haven't noticed any off flavor.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

 

Are you basing your calculations on the amount of whey in the recipe? I went by whey content of 0.58% lactic acid. The lactic acid liquid is 88% L.A. and 12% water.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030215003094

As I said, the first time I made the USDA patent recipe it hit the bullseye. Subsequent bakes did not. I'm guessing this is due to variability in the whey?

  • as written, 0.14% LA
  • 0.35% AA
  • USDA 1.7 ratio, 0.60% LA
  • 0.35% AA
  • Galal-USDA, 0.98% LA
  • 0.35% AA
  • Galal-Larraburu, 0.91% LA
  • 0.22% AA.

Does "as written" refer to the patent document or to my blog page?

Please give quantities of 50 grain white vinegar.

I am using NaCl only for this recipe to eliminate the use of KCl as a variable.

Patent document:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3826850A/en?oq=US+3826850A

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I’m sorry I didn’t convert the pure acids to the dilute solutions. That would be more useful in practice. Here are the corrected values as baker’s percentages:

  • 0.16% Lactic acid solution (88%)/7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [Your recipe as per blog page hyperlink]
  • 0.68% Lactic acid solution (88%)/7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [USDA patent estimated]
  • 1.11% Lactic acid solution (88%)/7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [USDA-Galal hybrid estimated]
  • 1.03% Lactic acid solution (88%)/4.4% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [Galal-Larraburu dough estimated]

Note that the lactic acid content listed in Table I of the Journal of Dairy Science article is from the acid whey of cream cheese production. The acid whey from yogurt may have higher LA.

Actual image scans of US patents can be viewed at uspto.gov. I find it easier than reading the way Google displays them. I read many chemical industry patents as a research/production chemist.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Thanks for doing that.

For convenience I have numbered them as follows.

#1  0.16% Lactic acid solution (88%)

      7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [Your recipe as per blog page hyperlink]

#2  0.68% Lactic acid solution (88%)

      7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [USDA patent estimated]

#3  1.11% Lactic acid solution (88%)

      7% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [USDA-Galal hybrid estimated]

#4  1.03% Lactic acid solution (88%)

      4.4% vinegar (5% or 50 grain) [Galal-Larraburu dough estimated]

I will start by baking #2 later today.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I had to modify the USDA recipe, #2 above.

It calls for 35 BP water + 25 BP whey + 7 BP vinegar. This results in 67% hydration.

Following recipe #2 above using 35 BP water, the dough did not come together in the mixer. I had to add more water. The lack of 25 BP whey resulted in the dough being too dry.

Proposed is

59 BP water

0.68 BP lactic acid liquid, 12% water

7 BP white vinegar

For a total of 66.68% hydration.

 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks for the update on the hydration. The patent states that the whey is 28% total solids; that works out to a 60% hydration, but I think the higher hydration makes it easier to mix the dough.

I look forward to your result and evaluation of the flavor and how it compares with the Larraburu bread. I might have some time in the next couple of days to try one or more of the recipes.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The S.F. SD recipes I've seen are around 59% - 60%, so that works out perfectly.

A recipe #2 loaf just came out of the oven, but I want to make it again with the higher hydration and let the dough mix better. I let the dough "proof" for 3 hours at 37° C (98.6° F). In the past I have let it proof for a much shorter time. I wonder if that's why I wasn't getting the flavor I expected. I don't understand why these loaves need to proof at all because we're not cultivating a colony of microbes and nothing is fermenting. Any ideas?

I must let this loaf cool completely before digging in.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Well, recipe #2 definitely has flavor, but it's a bit heavy on the vinegar flavor. I plan to deal with this not by cutting back on the vinegar because that is canonical per the USDA recipe. It's the lactic acid we're trying to zero in on because we're not using whey.

Next I'm going to bake recipe #3 because it has the most lactic acid and that will hopefully counteract the strong vinegar flavor.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I just mixed up recipe #3 with the higher hydration (59 BP). The dough came together nicely in the mixer bowl and formed a nice dough ball. I'm going to let the dough "rest" for one hour before proofing for 3 hours.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I may be able to try Recipe #4 tomorrow.

How much does the loaf rise during the 3 hour proof? It's not over-proofed?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The loaf rises a little and does not overproof.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I made a loaf using Recipe #4 amounts and the straight dough method. The dough was kneaded by hand for about 8 min after adding the acids. Proofed for 3.5 h. Baked for 10 min at 450 °F with steam and for 25 min at 400 °F. The bread cooled for ≈3 h before slicing. The sour is noticeable but not that strong. The crumb was dense and moist and the crust never browned.

 

I started another Recipe #4 this time using the sponge and dough method. I mixed half the flour and the diastatic malt at 70% hydration and it is now at 80–85 °F. I’ll report the results later.

Do you have any results for Recipe #3?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I baked recipe #3 and let it cool.

The crumb was dense. The crust was crispy but a little bit pale. There was pronounced sourness with a very subtle "chemical" character to the flavor. The added lactic acid seems to have counteracted the strong vinegar taste of the previous bake. I don't know if the "chemical" characteristic is due to an incorrect balance of acids or the fact that we are not using whey or if it is simply the nature of what we are doing by not using a traditional starter. The bread was quick to dry out sitting on my counter.

We haven't hit pay dirt yet. I have a loaf proofing now with a traditional sponge starter. I'm going to give it 8 hours of proofing time at 86 deg. F

I am very interested in hearing your impressions of recipe #4.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

The bread form the Recipe #4 sponge and dough tasted better than the straight dough. I found it difficult to develop the gluten even after kneading for 8 min. The crust was pale and the crumb was moist and dense. I think the addition of the acids at this level affects the behavior of the dough

The patent states that an advantage of using whey is the buffering capacity it provides to the dough. The TTA can be fairly high but the pH is maintained higher (4.5) through the use of the whey. I think the problem we're having is that the dough pH may be too low and it negatively affects the outcome. I did not think to measure the pH of the dough.

It also notes that sweet whey can be used with added acids. This might be a better way to control the TTA and pH. Your initial results from several years ago using whey from yogurt were promising but hard to reproduce, IIRC. I might get some Bob's Red Mill whey powder and revisit the process. Thoughts?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Interesting observations about the use of whey. Indeed, we are straying from the patent and that may well have something to do with the disappointing results we're having.

My inability to reproduce my original results may be due to my scrimping on the proofing time and temperature, i.e. the desire for "instant" sourdough. I don't understand the necessity for 3 hours of proofing when we're not cultivating a colony of microbes, but if that's what it takes then so be it.

Maybe the thing to do is to get some plain non-Greek yogurt and strain it. It never occurred to me to freeze the unused whey for use at a future time, but that's something to try.

Next will be to use whey and vinegar AND 3 hours of proofing at the recommended temperature, just like the patent says. Anyway, it was kind of tedious measuring that tiny amount of liquid lactic acid.

My proofing box is an unused toaster oven with a 25-watt incandescent light bulb inside, controlled by a thermostatic switch. It works well.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I have an American Weigh Scales scale that has a 2-kg capacity and 0.1 g readability. I use it all the time for bread baking. I also have a smaller capacity scale that has a 0.01 g readability that I can use.

I find that straining yogurt to get whey is too tedious and messy. I’ve only done it once or twice. I would rather weigh out the whey powder and the lactic acid. I don’t mind weighing out small quantities, but then I spent years in a chemistry lab weighing out mg quantities of materials.

The proofing time may not need to be that long, but I’m sure there are other flavor components that develop from the yeast fermentation.

I like the idea for the proofing box. I have some foam coolers that could be repurposed.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I think we have the same scale: American Weigh Scale, reads to 0.1 gram.

I spent for a KitchenAid mixer with a DC motor and I love it. Also a Wisco convection oven that heats the oven cavity like a hair dryer: a fan blowing air over a heating coil. It never burns the bottoms.

Are you going to use whey powder in conjunction with the lactic acid liquid or simply reconstitute whey powder? Reconstituting the powder sounds more convenient than straining yogurt.

Are you going to use Bob's Red Mill whey powder? It contains lecithin. I can't find the portions for reconstituting it as liquid whey.

This appears not to contain lecithin:

https://nuts.com/cookingbaking/powders/protein-powders/whey-protein-powder.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwt-6LBhDlARIsAIPRQcKIgnioH4ubWkoIQDi0TwA0vAb4Sxdjuxrc3PzcJfxGNFN2bxcCGz8aAhxuEALw_wcB

It looks like acid whey is 93.5% water.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375228/

 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I looked further at the BRM listing for the whey and it turns out that the BRM whey powder is not actually sweet dairy whey, but just whey protein. I should have realized that the protein powder does not contain the other components of whey. I don’t think the nuts.com whey is right, either. Bulkfoods.com, Olive Nation, and Amazon have sweet dairy whey.

When I get the whey, I will add lactic acid in the same amount that I estimated from the patent and the Galal, et al, article. The patent states that the acid whey is 28% solids so I was planning to make a 28 wt.% solution and acidify it with lactic acid.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Which whey powder are you going to get?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I picked up some plain yogurt and am going to strain it for the whey. I am then going to try the patent recipe again, proofing it exactly as directed in the patent: (at least) 3 hours at 98 F. I hope the proofing will bring out the sourness.

I don't find straining the whey to be that burdensome. I have a large-diameter strainer and a large-diameter (4 C) measuring cup. The strainer fits on top of the measuring cup and I invert the yogurt container into the strainer, walk away and come back to whey.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I'm ordering some sweet dairy whey for Bulkfoods.com. I found a couple other items that were interesting, including chopped rye. I am looking for sources of rye chops or coarse rye meal since NYBakers ceased selling retail. I'm using economy shipping so it may take a while. But it is in the Midwest, so maybe no more than a week.

I suppose I could try straining some yogurt but I usually buy Greek yogurt instead of regular.

naturaleigh's picture
naturaleigh

Just a quick comment for this thread on whey.  I have a little contraption I use almost weekly to strain regular yogurt to make it thicker, which is typically cheaper than Greek yogurt.  You get the benefit of having the whey to use in other recipes and the nice, thick, creamy yogurt (like Greek yogurt) at a reduced cost.  You can control how thick you like it by how long you leave the yogurt in the strainer.  I'll leave the yogurt in for a few days too if I want to make something akin to cream cheese, which makes a great base for appetizers, spreads or even sauces (but is also delicious as a treat with nuts and honey).  I've had this strainer forever and it works like a charm for the regular tubs of yogurt (32 oz.)-the whole thing goes in, barely.  I'm usually not a big fan of using plastic near my food, but I figure it's a wash as to whether the yogurt/whey sits in the original plastic tub in my fridge or in the strainer for a day.  However, the strainer part is mostly stainless steel.  I transfer both into separate glass jars when it's done straining.  I should add that this strainer is meant for regular or Greek yogurt.  I don't think it would work well for runny yogurt.  You should get a healthy cup or more of whey after straining is complete.

https://smile.amazon.com/Cuisipro-Yogurt-Cheese-Maker-Green/dp/B00TZLUIWU/ref=sr_1_26?dchild=1&keywords=yogurt%2Bstrainer&qid=1635779420&sr=8-26&th=1

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately, I don't need a large amount of whey. The King Arthur website says I'll probably get about 16 oz of whey from a quart of yogurt. I only a need a little for this recipe. I don't need liquid whey for anything else. I like the fact that the powdered sweet whey is shelf stable. What I really wanted to find was a source for powdered acid whey, but couldn't find one at the retail level.

Also, the cost of Greek yogurt is about the same if I don't use the strained whey. Plain yogurt is $1.95/quart and Greek yogurt is $3.69/quart at a local grocer. If half of the plain yogurt is whey, the Greek yogurt is slightly cheaper.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

compost strainer.  To separate the fluids out of the daily kitchen compost.  Yes, they separate and pick up the liquids from the solids.  We have similar kitchen compost containers here but no strainer. In China I just tied the yogurt up in a clean and ironed dish towel and hung it from a kitchen cabinet knob.  A coffee filter in holder works too.  Just don't turn on the coffee maker.  :)

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I let the plain yogurt strain overnight and got plenty of whey. The dough is proofing now. I have some unsweetened cocoa powder which I will use to make chocolate Greek yogurt with some sweetener.

Will let everyone know how the bread turns out. Save your whey in case this recipe turns out well.

Why are you looking for rye?

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Many of the recipes I've been exploring for rye breads require rye meal (fine, medium, or coarse). Fine rye meal is essentially "pumpernickel" flour and easy to to find, but the medium and coarse meals are very difficult to find now that NYBakers has ceased selling retail.

I actually seldom bake all white flour breads, but every once in a while I might like an SFSD loaf. That's why this method interests me as it seems shorter than the usual process. I'm also a retired synthetic chemist, so the experimentation aspect is a bonus.

One part of the patent puzzles me. The acid whey is listed at 28% solids, but compositions of acid whey I have seen indicate that the solids content is more like 5% (2.5–6.5% range; Cornell Fact Sheet #96). I wonder if the acid whey that was used in the patent had been concentrated.

Crastney's picture
Crastney

I don't throw away any starter, I just add it to another container in the fridge, then when I have enough, or when the want arises, I mix it with eggs, and plain flour, and make a batter mix, and cook pancakes.  SD pancakes the kids love, and it's an easy way to get them to eat eggs.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I received my sweet dairy whey and tried the USDA patent again using the sponge and dough method. The amounts of acid I used were almost the same as the last loaf. Because the sweet whey has some lactic acid in it, I adjusted down the lactic acid content.

The dough did not seem as odd as the last one, but I still had trouble getting a windowpane with kneading. I also tried to measure the pH of the dough using some narrow-range pH paper. I pulled off ≈5 g of dough and mixed it in 10–15 mL of distilled water; the mixture was pH 4.0–4.5. I let the dough proof for about an hour. It did not rise much even at 85 °F. Baked for 10 min at 450 °F with steam and at 400 °F without steam for 15–20 min.

 

The crust was still pale and the crumb was dense. The flavor was OK but I still not sure that it approximates SFSD.