The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Seeduction Bread Formula

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Seeduction Bread Formula

Whole Food's Seeduction Bread is one of the very top tasting breads that I've eaten. I am trying to put together a recipe/formula for it. The recipe that looks best (and is duplicated times over on the web) is found here.
http://allrecipes.com/recipe/142061/seeduction-bread/

It seems that one user (mhowell) has tweaked it best and their remarks are copied below.
---------- I made this using the original recipe above and it was ok, but didn't think it was close to the seeduction bread at whole foods, so I experimented to get closer. The final product was nearly exactly like whole foods. The ingredients are the same, but I changed the measurements and made one substitution. - 1 teaspoon of molasses NOT 2 tablespoons, the bread is way too dark with the original amount and made the crust a bit bitter. - Increase the honey to 4 tablespoons - Increase pumpkin, sunflower, and millet seeds to 4 tablespoons each - Increase the gluten to 2 tablespoons, this really firmed up the bread and made it less "cakey" - I also substituted the 3 tablespoons of malted barley flour with Bob's Red Mill 10 grain cereal. ---------- 

I've tried my best to convert the recipe to grams. I had to estimate the pumpkin seeds and the malted barley flour. I think they are close.

I noticed that the recipe calls for 4% Wheat Gluten. It also recommends AP Four. I'm wondering why the recipe didn't specify Bread Flour and omit the gluten. Is there a reason for this?

There a suggestion made by a user concerning the original recipe. They substituted the 3 tablespoons of malted barley flour with Bob's Red Mill 10 grain cereal. Will the 10 grain cereal. Is the malted barley flour used for taste only or does it provide other benefits to the dough?

If you have any input as the the amounts of any ingredients, I'd like to know. Any critiques to the percentages are welcomed. I will need to order a few ingredients on-line so any advice is appreciated before I place the order.

I've yet to see anyone nail this bread. I'd love to duplicate it...   --- Update: I baked this according to the recipe (used malted barley flour) and Hallelujah, I'm in love! ---

If I manage to get an accurate formula, I plan to eventually eliminate the yeast and convert to a natural levain starter.

Any help or ideas are appreciated,

Dan

AndyPanda's picture
AndyPanda

My understanding is that diastic malt is used in very small quantities (like 1/4 tsp per loaf) for the enzyme activity to convert more sugars for the yeast. I grind my own wheat - so I add a little - but storebought flour generally already has some diastic malt enzymes. Too much of this makes your dough gummy.

Non-diastic malt has no active enzymes and can be used in higher quantities for the malt flavor. When you buy malt powder you have to check the label, some will have milk powder, sugar, flour etc. in various quantities mixed with a some malt. I like to buy 100% malt (non-diastic) and I use anywhere from 1-2 Tablespoons in a loaf - that's quite a lot of malt flavor, but I love malt.

The recipe you posted called for AP flour - if you used bread flour (more gluten) instead of AP, you probably wouldn't need the additional wheat gluten your recipe calls for.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I thought there was a reduction in molasses.   A teaspoon would only weigh between 5 and 7g.  

Toasted or raw seeds?    Cracked poppy seeds?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Good Catch, Mini. I'm glad you brought that to my attention. I'm going to repost the image so that it reflects the correct amount.

I like to toast the seeds first.

Is there a benefit to cracking poppy seeds? Should I treat them similar to Flaxseeds (cracking for digestion)?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is more of a texture preference.  Cracking the outer seed shell allows liquid inside to soften the seeds.  Makes the difference in a "sandy" tongue feel.  Like flax, once the shell is broken they don't keep as long.  Not sure if more opiates are released with cracking.  

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4850/using-champion-juicer-grind-poppy-seed

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I baked this exactly as the recipe instructed. The formula is a the top of this page. I made sure to order all ingredients that I didn't have on hand. The flavor and appearance was outstanding, exactly like Whole Foods in my opinion. But the height and airiness needs improvement for me. I think I'll try an autolyse and hand mixing using the Rubaud Method and some S&F. (I am a devoted Trevor Wilson fan) Initially I used SAF Red, but next time I'll try SAF Gold.

Is is possible the fats or sugars are hindering the height and airiness?

I'd also like to convert to Levain and do some retarding.

Any thoughts or ideas appreciated.
Dan

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

back to one tablespoon.  That is all I need for plenty of loaf expansion.  

I like the idea of switching out the AP & gluten for bread flour.  I might also use spelt for the whole wheat portion.  It's very elastic stuff.

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

Hey Dan, I know this is coming a bit late, but I just scanned through your recipe here and a couple things stood out to me . . .

1) It's a lot of honey. And combined with the molasses it's around 25% of the flour weight in sweetener. This can definitely weigh down your loaf. The sugars compete with the flour for water and interfere with gluten development (and slow down yeast activity as well). You may be able to add the honey (and molasses) after the gluten has formed to minimize this issue, though it might be difficult if mixing by hand. In my experience, typical bakery formulas tend to max out at around 10% to 15% honey (for very sweet honeybreads). 

2) It's a fair amount of oil as well. Not excessive, but once you start nearing around 10% oil then it can start lending a cake-like quality to the bread (again, unless mixed in after the gluten has been developed). At about 7% this bread is trending towards the high-end. When combined with the high amount of honey in this recipe it almost guarantees a heavy loaf (though probably very tender as well). 

If the flavor is exactly as you want it, then I would suggest adding the oil and sugars after the gluten is mostly formed during the mix (much easier if using a mechanical mixer). And maybe increase the yeast to 2% or even 3% to counter all the sugar (and/or switching to the Gold as you mentioned). 

If you're open to adjusting the flavor, then I would cut the honey down significantly (maybe to 15% to start), and probably the oil as well (to 5%). And I would still add it in fairly late in the mix to get a better rise and more bread-like quality rather than a heavier and denser cake-like quality. You can add up to maybe 10% of soaked oats for a more moist texture (to counter the loss of the oil and honey) and it will also add a touch of sweetness to help fill in the sugar loss (though it will still be a much less sweet bread). I noticed online that the ingredients on the bag include oat fiber, but I don't see that in this recipe. Hydration is best adjusted by feel to accommodate these changes. As for the AP/VWG combo -- I don't think switching to bread flour will provide quite the same effect, but if you have access to hi-gluten flour then that might do the trick. The malted barley flour seems a bit like overkill to me (the AP is malted, as previously noted) -- I might cut it down to 3%, or remove it entirely unless that changes the taste too much. 

These are the first points I would consider when trying to adapt this recipe. As always, it's going to be trial and error until you zero in on a good formula.  The thing to always keep in mind with enriched breads is that fat and sugar (in large amounts) interfere with gluten development, yeast activity, and ultimately weigh the loaf down. That's why commercial bakers tend to prefer adding those ingredients towards the end of the mix once the gluten is already developed. If added at the beginning of the mix, the fat will coat the flour particles and hinder their ability to form gluten, and the sugar will compete for the water as well. This can lead to dense cake-like bread (at best) or dense gummy bread (at worst).

I hope that helps.

Cheers!

Trevor

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

1) It's a lot of honey. And combined with the molasses it's around 25% of the flour weight in sweetener. This can definitely weigh down your loaf. The sugars compete with the flour for water and interfere with gluten development (and slow down yeast activity as well). You may be able to add the honey (and molasses) after the gluten has formed to minimize this issue, though it might be difficult if mixing by hand. In my experience, typical bakery formulas tend to max out at around 10% to 15% honey (for very sweet honeybreads). 

The latest test was 17% sugars, including Molasses and Honey. I omitted the Malted Barley. The rise and crumb was very good, but the sweetness was lacking. 

2) It's a fair amount of oil as well. Not excessive, but once you start nearing around 10% oil then it can start lending a cake-like quality to the bread (again, unless mixed in after the gluten has been developed). At about 7% this bread is trending towards the high-end. When combined with the high amount of honey in this recipe it almost guarantees a heavy loaf (though probably very tender as well). 

Cut the oil back from 7.11% to 6.5%. Loaf was moist, bread rose well. Plan to cut the oil back gradually for each consecutive test bake.

If the flavor is exactly as you want it, then I would suggest adding the oil and sugars after the gluten is mostly formed during the mix (much easier if using a mechanical mixer). And maybe increase the yeast to 2% or even 3% to counter all the sugar (and/or switching to the Gold as you mentioned).

I have been using a levain and also 2 grams (0.52%) of SAF Gold to supplement the same day bake. Your book, Open Crumb Mastery, has changed the way I approach bread. My dough structure and scoring has improved dramatically.  I've been keen to Autolyse the home ground Hard Red Wheat first because it is the most thirsty. Then 30 - 60 minutes later adding Bread Flour to the Autolyse. I do it this way because I'm using 20% of the water in the Levain, thus making the Autolyse a little dry. After the Autolyse I add the yeast and salt and develop the dough in the mixer. After development the oil, sugars are added. I'm starting to trust my instincts. I'm allowing myself to get out of the box.

 You can add up to maybe 10% of soaked oats for a more moist texture (to counter the loss of the oil and honey) and it will also add a touch of sweetness to help fill in the sugar loss (though it will still be a much less sweet bread). I noticed online that the ingredients on the bag include oat fiber, but I don't see that in this recipe. Hydration is best adjusted by feel to accommodate these changes. 
Thanks for the tip.

The malted barley flour seems a bit like overkill to me (the AP is malted, as previously noted) -- I might cut it down to 3%, or remove it entirely unless that changes the taste too much. 

The original recipe called for 5.9% diastatic Malted Barley. I know from test baking that this way too much. I use KA Bread Flour and Malt is added. So in future test if I use any Malt I all I'm thinking maybe 1% diastatic for the home ground Hard Red Wheat only. What do you think?

The thing to always keep in mind with enriched breads is that fat and sugar (in large amounts) interfere with gluten development, yeast activity, and ultimately weigh the loaf down. That's why commercial bakers tend to prefer adding those ingredients towards the end of the mix once the gluten is already developed.
Point taken, thanks...

Trevor, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help with this. 

Dan Ayo

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Diastatic Malt gives great flavor. But if used in excess causes gumminess.

I really like the malt flavor in the first test bake of the bread. But at 5.8% the bread is gummy. Since I want the malt flavor but not the gummy crumb, would using non-diastatic do the trick?

If this is feasible, I plan to buy malted grains from a HomeBrew store and toast to kill any enzymes. Then I'd grind them to flour.

Would this provide flavor and eliminate gummy crumb?

Dan

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Since you are experimenting anyway, try using the original recipe quantity of malt but make it non-diastatic malt, instead.  That will provide sweetness without contributing to gumminess.  It might also make the crumb darker, depending on how darkly you toast the malt.

Paul

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I've come to the same conclusion. On my last test bake I included all sugars and most of the oils. I did incorporate the sugars and oils after the gluten was well developed as Trevor suggested. This, I believe is a major factor to get the bread to rise well. But the bread wasn't sweet and didn't have the nice mahogany brown color. The malt is missing.

So next test (bake 6) will include some non-diastatic malt. We'll see.

 

Dan

KibbyMcDoodle's picture
KibbyMcDoodle

Hi Dan (DanAyo),

I love Whole Foods Seeduction Bread but haven't been shopping Whole Foods during the COVID shelter at home period. 

Did you ever nail down a final recipe for Seeduction Bread?  If you did, and are willing to share, I'd love to give the recipe a try.  Gratitude for all of your experimentation.

Kind Regards,

Kibby

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Kibby, I never did crack that bread. And God knows, I tried...

I definitely would be willing to share it with you, if I did.

If you haven’t baked Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain, I seriously recommend you do. It is not quite like Seeduction, but it is a favorite among many on The Fresh Loaf.

See THIS LINK.

 

She_thinks's picture
She_thinks

Dan, if you're willing to share your recipe for Seeduction bread using a levain starter, I'd be forever grateful. I am not looking for a perfect match, just a close facsimile to enjoy while I do some of my own tinkering and thoughtful chewing. Thanks, and happy baking. As if there is any other kind of baking.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I was never happy with the Seeduction knock off. But if you want the formula click my user icon and send me your email address.

A fantastic bread (my favorite) that is a favorite of many on the forum is Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain. There is a great deal of information on this post.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/59038/community-bake-hamelmans-fivegrain-levain

She_thinks's picture
She_thinks

I put my sourdough starter to work and tried to recreate the Seeduction loaf. I think it turned out quite well. The flavor and crumb is outstanding. The rise could be greater, but I got involved with work and missed catching my levain as it was nearing its peak. This set off a chain reaction - I also needed an unplanned ambient proofing in the morning. Had I been able to go from fridge to oven, I think I would have gotten more lift.

I used most of the ratios you set out above, except I reduced the flours and water to account for the levain. I also soaked my seeds/grains for a couple of hours. I held back 75g of water for mixing in the salt before bulk fermentation. I ended up using only 25g of the water I held back, since I figured that the seeds/grains would offer up water during proofing.

I'm looking forward to an even better result with my next Seeduction loaf.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Great! I hope you can dial in the formula. Seeduction Bread is outrageously good...

katyajini's picture
katyajini

maybe you guys know of this already: KAF has a "Seeduction Challah"

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/seeduction-challah-recipe

I have not made it yet but intend to.  As has been suggested above, any bread recipe that has a significant amount of fat and sweetner I add these after the gluten has developed substantially, no matter what the recipe says. That always gives higher rise and better crumb.  All reviewers on the website loved the bread.

If you ever try this recipe please let us know how it compares!

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I actually gave up trying to knock off the Whole Foods Seeduction bread. I hope this formula produces a bread that is similar.

I am busy with other things now, but if you or anyone tries it, please let us know how it turned out.

WF Seeduction bread is outrageously good!

Danny

Ldehay's picture
Ldehay

Thanks for the recipe! I used sourdough starter, bread flour and spelt flour, added the honey, oil, and molasses after gluten development, and used 22g of non-diastatic malt extract (from a brewing store on Amazon). I used another 25g of BF when I added the honey mixture bc it was too wet. I’m amazed at how pretty it is and it tastes like WF seeduction.  

Ldehay's picture
Ldehay

Ldehay's picture
Ldehay

Ldehay's picture
Ldehay