The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

An American in Deutschland

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

An American in Deutschland

Good day!

I expect there may be some threads that discuss the differences between German flour and artisan baking here and American flour and artisan baking there. I did search some, but didn't find much that seemed to relate to my problem.

I have a reasonable understanding of sourdough baking in America using the hard wheat varieties that are predominate in our market. I have found most of the flour in Germany is from soft wheat...with which I have little experience with respect to bread making. I have tried numerous flour varieties here from 550 (AP) to 812 (Bread) to 1050 (Hi Gluten) to 00 (for Neapolitan style pizza) and can't seem to produce a very nice loaf.  The pizza has been okay...but not as nice as what I made in the states.

It seems that I get good gluten development (I can easily do a windowpane) and fermentation(double in volume in a reasonable time), but shaping lacks the kind of structure that I could create in my doughs from American flour. After preshaping into a round, the dough has a nice taut surface and a good spring back when touched... 30 minutes later it is very, very loose. After the final shaping, the dough looks okay--a similar taut surface and the appearance of a dough that will have nice oven spring. But when I turn it out onto the stone to bake it spreads dramatically and has very little spring. It does rise some, but nothing close to my loaves from home. I've purchased some bread from bakeries here and notice that the standard loaf is different from American bread, but they also have an obvious better ear or structure with what appears like a better rise. 

I feel certain that this isn't the best that I can do here...but I don't really know what else to try. I've lowered hydration a bit--I suppose I could keep trying that to see if I can get a dough that holds its shape better. I've tried a combination of different flours thinking that perhaps there is more whole grain in what I'm using...But I'm running out of ideas.

Has anyone moved abroad from the states to a European country with different flour and made some really nice loaves? I'd love some details of what, if anything, you tried.

Or, if you are from Germany/ Europe and have some experience with artisan baking, I'd love to hear what works for you. 

Thanks for your time. 

MikeV's picture
MikeV

I'm an American living in the Netherlands, not too far from the German border. I relatively recently started baking, initially following American recipes from the internet and books, but using European flour. I don't have a base of experience with American flour like you do, but I really struggled to get decent results until I dialed the hydration way back - I typically use 65-68% hydration for a sourdough loaf with 70% refined flour (e.g. French T65 or German 550) and 30% whole grain flour. With higher hydrations I get flat, "spreading" loaves with no ears. At least based on this experience, I would suggest trying a "daringly low" hydration - 10 or 15% lower than you're used to - and see how it works out.

The good news: Germans are extremely enthusiastic home bakers and there is a huge amount of German-language information and recipes available for the home baker, both on the internet (two well-known blogs are www.ploetzblog.de and www.brotdoc.com, for example) and in books (Lutz Geißler, author of the "Plötzblog," in particular has published quite a few). You could try following some of these recipes exactly to get a feel for the flour (this is how I've been approaching rye baking). Also on the positive side: you now have easy access to a broad spectrum of flours that would be considered "specialty"/expensive in the US: a full range of well-defined rye flour grades, plus grains like spelt, emmer and einkorn - and probably even a local mill to buy from directly. Viel Spaß!

Cheers,
Mike

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

Mike, thanks for the input. I appreciate you relating your experiences--it sounds like hydration could be a big issue. I normally do a 70 - 75% hydration (thereabouts) and have started knocking it back, but fairly slowly. I'll scale it back a bit more on the next go around and see what happens there.  And thanks for the recommendations for the forums--looks great!

I've used a little spelt, but haven't experimented much because I was having so much problem with "normal" flour. lol. Hopefully this will help my product and then I can expand a bit further. It is pretty exciting to see the readily available products that aren't as easy to find in the states.

Vielen Dank! Take care!

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I faced the same problem, moving from Germany to the US, I came up with this flour “translation”: https://brotandbread.org/2020/07/10/american-european-flour-translation-what-is-the-difference/

It is based on what I could find on information and my own experience (trial and error).

I agree, the softer European or German flours cannot absorb as much liquid as US flours, therefore always start with less and add more as needed. 

I, also, recommend those two German blogs the other user mentioned. Björn Hollensteiner and Lutz Geißler, published several bread baking books, too.

It is definitely a good idea to bake some of their breads to get a feel for using German flours.

Gutes Gelingen,

Karin 

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

Karin,

Vielen Dank für Ihre Antwort. I'll read through your posted website thoroughly before my next bake. Thanks a lot!

Schönen Tag!

Chris

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the dough fermenting faster here in Europe.  Especially in summer. Make note of the ambient temps including water temperature.  Some of the discriptions sound like over fermentation.  Try shortening your times shaping sooner.  Have you picked up some bannetons?

The higher numbers do not mean there is more gluten in the flour, it means there is more whole flour parts in the flour raising the ash content.  High ash content is good for sourdoughs (to buffer acid) but you may find yourself mixing with lower ash flours like a 700 to get the gluten you need.  For dough feel I would hydrate to a slightly stiffer dough than what you are used to. 

If you make any cakes you will see that there is plenty of gluten in 550 w flour.  I suggest exchanging about a third of the flour with starch to reduce the gluten.

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

Hi, Mini Oven,

Yes,I've been monitoring temperatures. But I agree there may be faster fermentation. I read that higher amount of whole grain in the flour results in faster fermentation because there are more nutrients to consume.

Regarding the flour numbers, unfortunately that is the difficulty with the internet, sometimes. I read several sites that said the type designation refers to the amount of ash left over. I also read a few that called 812 "bread flour" and 1050 "hi-gluten flour" made from hard wheat. I've been using it and the 812 because we predominately have hard wheat in the states and the descriptions I found online said they were best for breads and pizzas...but I don't know how accurate that information really is.  It's hard to know what is reliable and I couldn't bring any of my books with me--too much weight!

I don't have bannetons but I do have something that is working currently. Bannetons are on the wish list. 

The timelines are again based on my experience in the states. I reduced the final proof time by about 30 minutes last bake...it may have helped marginally.  I've been caught up in a few things and haven't baked since the day after posting this, so I have many things to try for the next go around.  I'll change hydration and times first. I may also substitute with the lower ash flours--however I primarily bake with sourdough. 

I have plenty now to try:)!  Thanks for the comment!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

flours take longer to hydrate or soak up water so gluten can get its gluten thing going.  It wouldn't hurt to let those big numbered flours autolyse longer, just like you would when making predominately whole wheat loaves. And yes the more whole flour, the faster it ferments. At least I find it so. 

This may all sound confusing right now but in a few bakes, things will start to make sense.  I don't travel with books either.  TFL is very light weight but big in content. I do travel with a scale.  :)

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

I had a fabulous scale from my little bakery/ pizza place in my town. It was too heavy to pack. (My wife moved here for a job and I had to close the store, repair the house some, and then come later with our dogs. So, I had a lot of stuff and just couldn't fit it in--my bags were already overweighted haha.) 

I do an extended autolyse currently--started doing it this way when I had my store. It just fit in better to my timeline. That said, all my "knowledge" (hard to call it that, haha) is self taught, youtube videos, forums, and books...so I know there is tons that I don't know because I lack formal training. I didn't hit a "too long" period of time with my autolyse in the states. I don't know if there is a point at which it can harm your dough. Currently it's probably around 6 hours. (Refresh the culture for my bake, tidy up the kitchen, do a few other chores, then put my dough together and wait for the levain to finish rising--about 8 hours post refreshing.) My doughs all seem to have good gluten development and seem to go through bulk fermentation very well. But this is certainly based on what I was used to with American flours. They windowpane and stretch very well. I normally let the dough almost double in bulk fermentation, then I retard overnight. Preshape/rest 30 minutes the following morning. Proof 1.5 hours to 2, and then bake.

My last bake I probably did about 1 hour to 1:15 on the final proof and then baked. Based on the consistent comments of hydration differences between European and American flours, that seems to be a good starting point. I'll probably start the next dough around 60% hydration (the last was about 67%, I think, down from 70-72%). 

I'll also watch the final proof time as I do think the first few batches may have proofed too long--I think the last product fared a little better with the poke test.

Yes, TFL definitely has some very knowledgeable people on the board! I think I've gotten some very good suggestions and insight!

Thanks again!!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yeast has it's own math and just about doubles with each growing cycle (roughly an hour) meaning exponentially so that small changes under ideal conditions in the first phases of making the dough will have the biggest impact later on.

 I normally let the dough almost double in bulk fermentation, then I retard overnight. Preshape/rest 30 minutes the following morning. Proof 1.5 hours to 2, and then bake.

That said, the waiting until the bulk rise almost doubles before retarding, might be too long as the dough needs time to cool down and slow down in the fridge.  I don't retard dough often but when I do, chill sooner when the dough is about half way between flat and doubling and after a folding of the sourdough.  The wheat dough during chilling fills with tiny gas bubbles ready to expand further when the stiff gluten matrix warms up again.   There are many variations of retarding depending on what crumb you want and if you preshape before chilling or after.  

About the dough hydration, a drop from 67% to 60% is a big drop.  Try the 65% or 66% for the next loaf.  If you are just working with the w800.  You may need to add a spoonful or two of water to get all the flour moistened.  Weigh the dough before and after adding any extra water to get true measurements.  Get one hand into the dough and feel it before adding more water, often it feels stiffer at the end of a spoon than it actually is.  Use your instincts, if it feels too stiff, wet your hand and work in some more water. 

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

"About the dough hydration, a drop from 67% to 60% is a big drop.  Try the 65% or 66% for the next loaf.  If you are just working with the w800. "

I was stepping down slowly, but I had not seen a difference. But I'll continue going in smaller increments. Thanks

"That said, the waiting until the bulk rise almost doubles before retarding, might be too long as the dough needs time to cool down and slow down in the fridge.  I don't retard dough often but when I do, chill sooner when the dough is about half way between flat and doubling and after a folding of the sourdough."

I should adjust bulk fermentation and proofing times-- Are you suggesting I should condense the shaping into a single phase rather than a preshape and final shape? And also proof for much shorter time prior to baking?

I asked another poster--should I continue trying to "adapt" my formula for my current conditions or search for a basic sourdough formula using the European flours here?

Thanks again for your comments!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

After preshaping into a round, the dough has a nice taut surface and a good spring back when touched... 30 minutes later it is very, very loose. 

With this loaf, that's when I would have put it into the hot oven. Maybe 15 minutes earlier. So to repeat the same loaf, turn the oven on to preheat before removing dough from the fridge.

You mentioned the "states" but not which one.  There are differences there too! (Water and temps.)

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

"With this loaf, that's when I would have put it into the hot oven. Maybe 15 minutes earlier. So to repeat the same loaf, turn the oven on to preheat before removing dough from the fridge."

I addressed this in the other reply--does this mean condense the preshaping and shaping into a single stage and then proof for a much shorter period?

I lived in Alabama. It was pretty warm for most of the year, and I ran a little sourdough bakery/ pizzeria (amazing because in my city my product was better than most of what was available locally...but it is easy to see how little I actually know about this craft. goes to show what can pass as decent product when there aren't many other options :) haha). That's a primary reason I used the retarding--room temperature in my kitchen was often in the 80s. It was hard to control the environment so I watched for some good fermentation and then threw the dough in a pretty cold walk in cooler overnight. Baked the next morning before opening for lunch/or sometime during the shift. It was easier to control the ambient temperature before I was open for sales.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

as the dough sounds close to overproofing to me. Dont waste time and get down to shaping busines right away after removing from fridge.

"...does this mean condense the preshaping and shaping into a single stage and then proof for a much shorter period?"

The best is to change only one variable at a time and take good notes.  Otherwise you won't know what did what.  

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

okay, got it. Thanks for the suggestions!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Chris, on this thread: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67524/loaf-cracking-outside-score

Mariana made some good comments on re-making US formulas for European flours. The thread is about French flours in particular, but she explains why EU flours are a different ball-game, and how the assumptions implicit in North American formulas don't carry over. 

Net: it's not merely "adjustments", but it's about how different behavior characteristics of the flour cause major re-working of a formula, to the point it makes you think it's a different formula. 

--

In that user's previous post, https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66619/sourdough-flattening-bit-hard-score

I picked up on the low-protein aspect of her flour, but it took Mariana to connect all the dots and explain what the other user needed to do.  I suppose you could call it "adjustments" to the US formula, but to me, the handling was different enough that it  constituted a whole new formula.

Mini has baked in the US and in Austria, (and elsewhere around the world if I remember correctly) so she is also aware how EU flour is just a different animal than North American flour. Both she and Mariana will help you get your mind out of the "North American box" in regard to flour handling.

Bon chance, amigo.

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

Hey Idaveindy,

Perspective is always an amazing thing. As I mentioned, I'm not formally taught (which, of course, is not a requirement..).In my town in Alabama, I was able to make pretty good (by comparative standards to the area) bread and pizza--enough so that I started selling at Farmer's Markets and then opened a little bakery/pizzeria.

Reading through the post you linked, I've once again realized how little I actually know about this craft. It amazes me that I could even have a bakery :) lol. I guess that shows what kind of fresh and local bread was available in my area--not much.

That post is so extensive that I'm going to have to read through it several times to really understand. I think I generally understand the points being made, but there is a lot of technical information that is fairly far above me! Thanks for the links. I think they will be helpful, and yes, it seems likely that I'm going to have to ditch my American "experience" and empty my bread bowl and refill it.  I appreciate the information. Take care

Outside of trying to convert my formulas to European flours (I know people have linked me to various blogs and books...) does anyone have a good link to a basic sourdough using readily available European flour types? That may be a better plan than trying to adapt what I have to where I am.

Thanks again

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

I have travelled extensively and lived for a short time in Germany.  I am familiar with, and enjoy, the Brotkultur in Germany. 

 

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.   I would avoid attempting to reproduce American bread while living in Germany.  Local flour is a different species, grown in different soil, with different growing conditions and milled using different equipment and methods.  It doesn't matter what the label says, it's not the same article as King Arthur or Gold Medal.   Avoid looking over your shoulder across the Atlantic, and dive into the great Deutsche Brotkultur.  It's the best in the world, by far. 

 

I would also avoid the French and Italian styles, at least until after you have made many steps down the road learning German breads.   French and Italian breads are more wheat-based and finely crumbed.  Think baguettes, brioche, focaccia and pizza.   It's good stuff but far from what you have at your doorstep in Germany. 

 

Instead, learn the local recipes.  Learn Dinkelbrot and Roggenbrot.  Then learn Schwarzbrot.  And Mischbrot and Bauernbrot.  Learn a Danish Rugbrød.  Spend time at your local supermarket.  If you have a Globus near you, the bread and pastry department is stunning by comparison to American mainline groceries.  Take photos and closely observe the products. 

 

You have a great opportunity to greatly widen your bread baking horizons and have access to the proper ingredients.   Take photographs and notes of the ingredient brands and packaging.  When you ultimately leave Germany, buy a large quantity of flour and bring it home with you.   I did that several times and it was a joy to me. 

 

Leave the American recipes and ingredients in America.  Embrace the local recipes, ingredients and methods. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the bakeries near you.  Also keep in mind that some breads are offered only seasonally and not year round.  I find I bake a lot less when in Austria because I simply don't have to.  Olive breads and fennel flatbreads are offered this time of year, often with a salty seedy topping.  

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

I'll definitely check some more out. We've found a few that we visit. It's a change of pace to buy bread when you're used to making it :) .

Olive is one of my favorite breads...I did an olive boule weekly back home! Love it!

Thanks!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Thanks. You did a better job of explaining what I was trying to express, and took it further. Based on his responses, I think Chris is now open to the vistas and learning experiences that Germany affords him.

Thinking in the other drection, he also has the opportunity to Wow the Germans with his American style pizza.

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

Definitely open to getting some new experiences and different skills! This whole move has been a new experience, lol. Thanks for the input.

I'll have to meet and make friends with some local Germans, though. My wife's job is in academics and her whole group of people she has met are international transplants haha. We haven't made friends with any local Germans yet...But hopefully soon.

Thanks! 

chrisatola's picture
chrisatola

Semonlina man,

Thanks for the input. We've been to a few bakeries around town and have enjoyed what we've gotten. I'll look into some of those mentioned varieties and give it a shot. I appreciate the comment!

I'll really have to change direction, as french and italian styles are my preferred things to make (at least, back home!).

I'll look to expanding outside of my standard wants...thanks