The Fresh Loaf

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Pullman Pan size vs Dough Weight

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Pullman Pan size vs Dough Weight

Looking for help on getting the right size Pullman Pan.  This one is rated for 450g dough weight, but based on the dimensions, I’m thinking that’s 450g flour.

Am I looking at that correctly?

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi!

They are closer to truth with their 450g of dough capacity. Normally, we count grams of dough per liter of volume when we bake in pullmans. This one is about 2L in volume (10cmx11cmx19cm). Its true volume would be determined by pouring some water into it while this pullman sits on the scale. 

Then you'll know how much dough to use per pan from the following rules:

245g of dough per each Liter of volume for closed lid baking, if your want  normal crumb

260g  of dough per each Liter of volume for baking without lid

275g of dough per each Liter of volume for baking with closed lid, if you want a denser crumb. 

This is from R.Calvel, but I think J. Hamelman quotes the same numbers. 

Examples,

this is Pullman Bread from Hamelman's Bread, 2nd edition in 1L volume pullmans

Left to right: normal crumb, dense crumb, open lid

Normal vs dense crumb

Lidless bake

For my pullmans, they indicated that they are for 250g dough each, i.e. 250g dough per Liter: 

 CANDeal Loaf Pan with Cover/Bread Baking Mould Cake Toast/Non-Stick Toast Box with Lid for 250g Dough, Vented Hole for Rapid Baking, Made from Heavy-Gauge Carbon Steel(Golden, Smooth Style)

 

 

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Thanks for the really fine explanation and images!

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thank you much for the response!  I’ll have to measure a little closer, but I bake 500g of flour (about 850g of dough) in a pan that is roughly the same width and length, but under 3” tall.  After oven spring, the bread height has to be in that 4.5” range in the center and much lower on the rounded end.  Not doubting you...  just can’t wrap my head around the roughly 2x difference in dough weight.  Does a Pullman give you that much better over spring?

mariana's picture
mariana

A pan is just a pan. You can bake an airy angel cake or a brick-like pumpernickel in it, and anything in between. Breads that are tall or not so tall, fluffy or dense, whatewer you want.

The shape of your pans is well suited for loaves with a lot of voulume baked outside, nearly half of all dough would be baked outside, above the edges of the pan.

The rule of grams per volume of pullman is for pullman bread, for pain de mie, sanwich loaves, which are soft and must fit inside the pan entirely or have a relatively small amount of dough baked outside, above the edges. 

 Specifically, when they are sold in Asia, they indicate grams of dough per liter meaning grams of dough for pain de mie. Because such bread is very popular in Asia.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thank you again!  This makes much more sense to me now.  I tend to make whole grain breads that are on the denser side.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

They are likely talking about "Milk Bread". The volume is about 2 liters, or about 2 kg of water. 1/4 of that is about 500g. 

My current experiments with 50% WW sourdough in pullman pans are running about 200g of flour in my 10x10x10 cm pan. That produces a loaf that is about 12cm high but varies from 10cm to 15cm depending on handling and recipe tweaks. 

I've given up on using the lid because it is too hard to hit exactly the right amount and I hate when dough squirts out. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thank you for the info and interesting point on the dough squirting out.  Hadn’t thought about that.  ?

Benito's picture
Benito

Troy, I have a Pullman pan that is 9”x4”x4” and I don’t have the lid.  I usually bake about 900 g dough in my pullman.  Not sure if that helps.

mariana's picture
mariana

Interesting, Benny. It's a 3.4L pulman and you follow the rule exactly. 265g of dough per liter of volume. 

900:3.4=265

 

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Benny's pan is 2.4L. 900 / 2.4 = 375

mariana's picture
mariana

My mistake, Gary. Thanks. I stand  corrected.I  got stuck thinking about KAF 13" pullman and their pain de mie recipe. They fit dough made witn 600g of flour into a 3.4L pullman.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/pain-de-mie-recipe

Sorry, Benny.

suave's picture
suave

it's actually 3 liters. In the book Hamelman says that their Pullmans are 13x3¾x¾ and that they use 1 kg of dough.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

9 inches is about 23 cm. 4 in is about 10 cm. 23 x 10 x 10 = 2300 cubic cm. One cubic cm is one ml. So Benny's pan is about 2.3 liters. 

suave's picture
suave

What does Benny's pan have to do with my comment?

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

It wasn't in the subject line when I read it. Sorry for the confusion. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

It definitely does Benny!  Thank you.

Benito's picture
Benito

Troy, in the end I think you need to experiment a bit to find that dough weight that works for you with the type of bread you're planning for your particular pullman pan.  I found it a bit confusing when trying to research what the ideal dough weight was for my pan.  I lucked out and just tried 900 g and it worked well for a lid off bake.

I think you've seen the photo of the last pullman loaf I baked in it, it was a milk bread, the matcha and black sesame swirl and it filled the pan nicely with a nice dome top.

 

mdw's picture
mdw

For what it's worth I found this comment to be particularly helpful when doing my own calculations. There can be a lot of variation depending on desired goals and ingredients but I'm typically well within the desired range following this advice. It doesn't always jive with recipes I see online so there's a bit of finger crossing when they go in, but I've never been disappointed with the results.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

dabrownman knows his stuff for sure. The one thing that bothers me about his reasoning is the mixing of units. 

He is calling for 1100 grams of dough to expand by a factor of 2 to fill a 2.2 liter pan. But 1100 grams of dough has a volume of less than 1.1 liters. In my experience the volume is more like 2/3 of the mass. So, instead of expanding by a factor of 2 in volume, the dough in his example is expanding by about a factor of 3. 

Am I missing something?

mdw's picture
mdw

If you are missing something I'm missing it as well. I spent more than a few hours trying to reconcile the information with conflicting information on other sites like Maurizio's, as well as the manufacturer of my pans. But in the end I found his method to work very well. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I haven’t read through the entire post and replies, so maybe this was already stated.

Dough weight to determine the required amount to fill a Pullman or really any pan will vary. things like SD, CY, whole wheat, white flour, etc will produce breads that vary in density. A light and airy Milk Bread and a sourdough whole wheat bread will require very different weights. At least that is my experience.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

There are no accurate ways to  measure what will reliably fill a Pullman . I always use the lid as I prefer that shape. I have the USA 13”. If I put Challah dough it is WAY less weight for that volume  than if I put my whole grain porridge bread. 1000g vs 1400-1600g!!!! The only way to be sure is trial and error record exact outcome and then duplicate the formula. Since I’m not pleasing anyone but myself if it doesn’t quite fill the pan I just adjust the formula for the next time. c

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Take a look at THIS LINK. In it you will find a method for calculation dough weight for different sized pans. Once you know the density of a particular dough you can determine the weight needed for that specific dough in a different size pan.

You can also get close with other bakers findings. Foe example - the weight and pan size is listed in that link for Hamelman’s Five-Grain. You can work from those figures. And, like Carline says, you may need to tweak from there.

Calculations are more crucial when baking with the top on. Top off is less critical.

Check THIS LINK to see what happens when too much dough is put in a covered Pullman.

 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thank you everyone for the comments and help.  I was about to pull the trigger on a pan of similar dimensions to the one I currently use, and then saw the dough weight reference.  It got me sidetracked.  :-)

Appreciate the help!

merlie's picture
merlie

I bake “ toast bread “ ( page 298 first edition “ Bread “ ) every week . Hamelman calls this English Pullman Bread. My pans are 9”x 4” and I put 1lb 8oz in each pan - with a lid . This leaves me just enough dough over for two 2oz buns. This our favourite go to Bread for toast and sandwiches.

Merlie