can you OVER stretch & fold?
I've made about a dozen loaves of sourdough now and am still having a great deal of difficulty with loose, floppy dough. It's nearly impossible to shape and I can't get any real tension on the surface. I've read everything I can find on the subject, I've poured over this site as well as Full-Proof Baking and The Perfect Loaf and viewed countless you-tube videos, but haven't found the answer. My most successful loaves (pretty good actually) used the method from Full-Proof Baking and a slightly modified recipe.: 100% hydration levain...15 g starter, 30 g of water and flour (a 50% bread flour, 25% whole wheat, 25% rye mix). The dough is 35 g whole wheat, 35 g rye, 255 g bread flour and 253 g water . But just as I thought I'd got the problems licked and was on my way, my next three attempts had dough that was a floppy mess . The only difference was bread flour from a different source, though still 13% protein.
I do a lamination and 4-5 rounds of coil folds . Last time I actually tried two laminations. There's a point in the coil folds that it looks like it's getting some good structure, but after a rest, it's a puddle. And it never seems to develop enough structure to get decent shaping and surface tension. (And yes, i've watched what seems like ALL the recommended videos and tried lots of technigues....no improvement. I'm pretty sure it's not over fermentation, it's not the levain (nice and healthy and consistently growing). So I've been wondering if I just need to really work this dough a lot more to get the structure. But I haven't been able to find anything that says unequivocally to do this and i'm afraid it might backfire.
Suggestions?
an autolyse? theperfectloaf recommends a longish autolyse about 1.5 hours for the "best" sd recipe, maybe shorter for the beginner, I can't recall right now.. This can't but help with gluten development.
Another factor is the strength of your starter. Full Proof recommends an involved feeding of starter from the fridge. I do 3 gm of cold starter to 30 gm of red wheat ap/rye combo and 30 gm water. I just do that twice before I mix up the levain for a Maurizio Leo recipe. Full Proof recommendations are too demanding for me. My results are good enough. Could be better I guess.
Once you've got a good starter and have mastered a vigorous levain with a good rise, it helps to adequately incorporate that levain in the mix. Dimpling the levain into the autolyzed dough and then folding the levain across the dough so you create layers I believe helps a lot. See the videos at breadwerx.com for tips. Just don't go overboard and over-tighten the dough. A modest amount of this I believe goes a long way.
Yet another factor is temperature. Very early on I invested in a Brod and Taylor proof box because my house is cool, I can't afford to heat it like a sauna and Seattle winters are generally in the 40's dipping into the 30's and 20's on occasion. I've been able to regulate temperature with this box. I'd scoff at measuring water temp and other things because I had the proof box as a crutch. If the dough felt too cool I'd just crank the temp on the box. But temperature is truly important. One of the easiest things you can do is warm up the water for your mix as per recipe recommendations, no higher. Too high a temp isn't good either. Your climate could be very warm and that totally changes the ball game.
Lastly I see you're using about 78 percent hydration. Everyone around here seems to think that's too ambitious for a beginner. Even Maurizio counsels dropping the hydration until you are more experienced. I started with a Chef John recipe, then I graduated to Breadtopia recipes and then I saw youtubers like Josh Weissman and Mike Greenfield copying Maurizio Leo. I got seduced by Maurizio's photos and writing like a lot of us. I stuck with this high hydration regime, suffering with the occassional failures, until I got consistent results. I'm just beginning to toy with Full Proof Baking approaches to see if I can match her bread.
Anyway my experience for what it's worth.
Hi all: Thanks for the advice. To add more clarity: First, I erred when I said I used 523 g of water. That's the original recipe and was completely unworkable for me. I have been using just 512 g. of water, making it about a 68% hydration, though the dough picks up a bit more moisture from wet hands and misting my counter. When I first reduced it, worked well. But the last three loaves, not so much.
And yes, I autolyse. Here's what I do: Night before I remove my starter from the fridge and feed. In the AM, I make the levain and the dough, allowing the dough to autolyse while the levain develops in an oven with the light on. Then I dimple and fold it in, using the Breadwerx method. Rest 30 minutes. Dimple and fold in the salt and rest for 30 minutes. Then I do a stretch and fold on the countertop and rest 30 min. again. Then a lamination, using the Full-Proof Baking method and another 30 minute rest. I follow this with up to 5 coil folds every 45 minutes. Once I tried an additional lamination before starting the coil folds. When the total bulk fermentation has been about 6-7 hours, I attempt to prehape and shape before putting the loaf in a banneton, covering and stashing in the fridge overnight.
I'd love a proofing box, but it's just not practical in my small kitchen And yes, I live in Spain, but the weather so far this year while I've been baking hasn't been especially hot, ranging from about 60 to 78. It will go over 80, but only in the sun. In the house, it's been pretty consistently 68-74.
I'm still a bit confused about whether or not it is possible that I'm not working the dough enough. From all recipes and
you-tube videos I've seen, I am. But the dough clearly lacks sufficient structure. Is there any danger of overdoing it?
I"m attaching a pic (at least I'm trying to!) so you can see what I mean about not enough ovenspring and structure.
Many thanks!
too much of a factor. How is the humidity?
Can you do the bulk ferment in a clear container like glass and watch the bubbles form in the dough? Example:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64388/bulk-proof-evaluation-100-whole-grain-dough
Full Proof baking techniques are designed to stack those bubbles in layers to produce the crumb she likes. They are advanced techniques. Maybe you can just do simple stretch and folds and see what happens.
Things seemed to change for you when you changed flour. Can you use the same you used when you got better results?
You are from Spain. Barcelona perhaps? My son has traveled there. Very, very warm climate.
I'm from Seattle, Kristen Dennis is from Chicago, Maurizio Leo is from the high elevation semi-desert in New Mexico. It does get cold there in the winter.
I think you may be fighting the climate. You can still bake good bread there but perhaps you'll have to reach out to bakers that are local to you and see what they do.
Wetter isn’t better! Try 70% hydration and work your way up
(Also, make sure your starter is active)
"The only difference was bread flour from a different source, though still 13% protein. "
Flours can differ in the amount of water they can handle. Yes, try lowering the hydration.
Good information from an accomplished home baker to starting bakers:
https://breadtopia.com/bread-baking-and-flour-substitution-tips/