The Fresh Loaf

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123 Sourdough - how to get the right consistency for proofing?

Miller's picture
Miller

123 Sourdough - how to get the right consistency for proofing?

I'm going to try baking the 123 SD per the recipe here. However, before actually doing the recipe I have a very specific question, and the photographs here illustrate exactly what I mean.

Between the folding and the placing of the dough in the cloth-lined basket, in the fifth and sixth photographs respectively, there is a big change in what the dough looks like. The dough in the basket appears to be much drier than at the previous stage, but there is no mention in the description about adding any flour to it.

The relevant text in the description is "Dump dough out on counter, gently pat out big bubbles, round into ball with hands and cover with the over turned mixing bowl. 15 minutes later, round into tight ball again and put ball into a proofing basket (a bowl will work) lined with a smooth floured cloth with seam side of the dough facing down.  Place container back into the plastic grocery bag again and tie as before". There is no mention of adding flour on the counter before turning the dough on it from the bowl or in rounding the dough into a ball before putting it in the basket.

So please tell me, how is the miracle achieved of changing a wet looking dough into drier dough?

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

When pre-shaping, you dust the surface very slightly with flour (or not, it will be just easier this way). Then put the proofed dough on there , pre-shape and cover it a bit with flour. After resting, you flip over the dough so the dry side is now on the bottom and the wet side on the top. Now do the final shaping and you have a dough ball that's dry on the outside and wet on the inside.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Miller, the fifth image shows the wet dough as it was turned out onto the counter. What was the top surface in the container is now facing the counter. In the container, moisture finds it’s way to the bottom. 

The sixth image is drier because the skin of the dough is pulled tighter when forming the ball. Also what was the top of the dough in the BF container is still the top of the dough after shaping. VERY little flour is used for preshaping and shaping. I never use much flour for the preshape or shape. And even so, I often have difficulty getting the seams to stay stuck.

This is my favorite way to preshape. https://youtu.be/vEG1BjWroT0  You may want to do your shaping differently, but the preshape portion of the video is excellent.

Danny

Miller's picture
Miller

This is what I understand now: Some flour is needed on the side of the dough which will end up being the side in contact with the counter. Then the shaping of the dough takes place and the floured side will become the outside of the shaped dough.

What I've noticed on most videos that I have seen about this part of dough handling is that the others' dough when cut for shaping is rubbery, elastic and doesn't stick to the dough scraper if one is being used or cling to the bakers' fingers. My dough at this stage is always much wetter than what I see in the videos, it doesn't keep its shape and it's sticky. The obvious answer may be to reduce the water proportion in my initial mixing of the dough, but I always fear to do so as it would mean that I would deviate a lot from the prescribed recipe quantities. I mean, for example, if the hydration per the recipe is 72%, I suspect that in my case I may have to reduce it to 64-66% which to me is a significant deviation. So far I haven't tried it because I would be unsure if my bake would succeed or if it would be the same as the recipe.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Miller a 1-2-3 SD is 72.4% hydration, when you take the starter @ 100% hydration into account. I recommend you reduce the hydration to 68% for a dough made up od all white flour.

Good Tip - If you want to know what the weight of 1% water is, do this. Divide the total flour weight by 100. Example, the total flour weight, including the flour in the levainis 435. Then 1% water (higher or lower) is 4.35grams. If you want to reduce the hydration in the example by 4% it would come to 4.35 x 4 = 17.4 grams less water.

Great bread using all white flour can be made at 68% hydration. And with good ears! Ask Alfanso...

Danny

Miller's picture
Miller

I made a spreadsheet a couple of days ago with a provision for variables in order to calculate easily hydration percentages, flour and water, including also the hydration of levain. Of course there are many such spreadsheets around, but I never used any of them. I prepared mine just as a quick aid, with no bells and whistles.

The example in your tip was very useful both because the tip itself is useful, but also because I used it to prove the accuracy of my spreadsheet! :)

So, I'll bake my next bread with white flour, except for my starter which is 100% rye, and I'll aim for 68% hydration. Hopefully I'll get a good result.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Miller, why not document and photograph the bake. Then post it so we can help if needed.

Miller's picture
Miller

Tomorrow I may have to spend the day baking pumpkin pies and if so then bread baking will be postponed for a day or two. But I'll try and document my next bread baking effort in order to make it easier to see where I've been going wrong.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

a 1,2,3 sourdough is 71.4%. But it can sometimes seem. Like too much.  Hold back a little of the water and add it if you can't get all the flour wet after a pretty good mixing.  Some flours absorb less or more depending on type.

Miller's picture
Miller

So, I tried to bake a loaf as follows:

I used 30g 100% rye starter which I fed with 45 ml water and 45g bread flour and left it overnight for 9 hours.

I added135 ml water and 250 g flour. According to my calculation the hydration level was 68%.

The rise of my levain after feeding the starter was doubled in height, but certainly not tripled.

 

The proofing in the banneton was fine, but not spectacular. My dough was rather slack, not firm-looking.

Also the top of the dough in the banneton was tacky. I thought this would not be a serious problem, but in the end the dough stuck to the palm of my hand as I was turning it to put it in the Dutch oven. This unfortunately must have damaged the texture of the dough as there were strands of it clinging to my hand and deforming the dough. I salvaged the dough as best as I could, added lots of flour on the damaged surface and put it in the Dutch oven. The floured surface was at the bottom of the Dutch oven and as expected it was burned by the heat of the oven.

In the end the dough did have a rise in the Dutch oven.

 

Crumb shot:

My adventure with the dough means that I still have to tackle the hydration issue that I face.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Miller, let’s calculate your hydration. “ 30g 100% rye starter which I fed with 45 ml water and 45g bread flour and left it overnight for 9 hours”. 30g starter @ 100% is 15g water + 15g flour. You added 45g water + 45g flour.  Total water in starter = 60g and the total flour in starter is 60g. “I added135 ml water and 250 g flour”. 1ml water = 1g water. So, 60 +135 = 195g water. And 60 + 250 = 310g flour.   195 / 310 = 62.9% hydration.

I think I know your problem.

  1. unless your room temp is very cold, 9 hours is too long to ferment the starter. It will turn too acidic. 
  2. It looks like your dough as pictured in the banneton has grossly overfermented. It looks more like a starter than a dough. If this is the case, your dough will also be too acidic and the gluten will degrade. 

Tell us what temps the dough was fermented and also how long.

Danny

Miller's picture
Miller

I'm sorry about the figures that I gave earlier. I had them written down on a scrap of paper which I through away. I retrieved it and now I see the actual figures that I used.

Starter: 30g 100% rye starter which I fed with 45 ml water and 45g bread flour.

Added to the starter: 185 ml water and 300 g bread flour. Also added 6 g salt.

Irrespective of the above, my room temperature was rather warm. We are going through a relatively warm period of the year. I don't have a thermometer in the room, but I think the outside temperature dropped to 17 C at night. Indoors should be higher, I'm guessing about 23-26 C.

Taste-wise the bread is not acidic.

Based on my previous bake a few days ago I too expected it to be acidic. The overnight feeding of the starter was 9 hours, then the BF was 5 hours and the proofing period was almost 2.5 hours.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Miller, your dough in banneton image shows a dough that looks way overfermented to me. It looks more like a levain or starter than a bread dough to me. That is why it is so sticky and hard to handle.


9 hours at 25C for 30g starter + 45g water + 45g flour is too long for an active starter. Did you notice that it was sinking down from the high level mark? Your starter shouldn’t recede much if at all.

Instead of doing a 2.5hr final proof, you might do better by putting it is the refrigerator right after shaping. Leave it overnight if your fridge is cool enough.

Miller's picture
Miller

I left my starter to rise overnight and therefore I didn't watch how it behaved during that time. Anyway in the morning when I looked at it there was no visible sign of it having risen above the level shown in the photograph that I posted. My starter was in the fridge before feeding it and I thought I'd better factor in a couple of hours for it to reach room temperature. However, I added the water and flour right from the start of the nine hours period.

Thanks for the tip about putting the dough in the fridge. I used this technique recently and the dough rose a bit while in the refrigerator. However, and as usual for me, the dough was too wet.

Perhaps I should try to go the opposite way and make an under-proofed bread in order to be able to determine the middle point where the hydration will be right for my circumstances!

Anne Ng's picture
Anne Ng

One thing I would recommend about handling the dough after 2nd proof: use a pre-cut round parchment paper or a silicon baking mat that can lay flat in your dutch oven to transfer the dough. That would solve the stickiness on the hand problem :)

Miller's picture
Miller

Good idea, I’ll bear it in mind for the future. I actually tried using parchment paper in the past and the result was good. This time though I tried to see if I could use my banneton, with not so good results.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

please start a notebook.  I have one and am often lazy but there is so much one can forget.  Include date, weather & temp and type of starter, flour and water then your recipe with lots of space to add notes and observations.  Leave space for photo references and how the loaf tasted too.  I even throw in location as I'm often in a different state or country. Which makes a big big difference esp if seasons are reversed.  My biggest mistake is that when I recipe works, I forget to follow up that comment my notes and stop taking them for a while. Lol.

back to the bread.  I also thought the dough looked overproofed, the spotty crust color is also a sign.  First I was wondering about the salt until the slip detail popped up.  Dough without salt will also be sticky.  The other thing is temp and with the warm temps you can easily reduce the starter from 30g to just 10g for overnight and add some extra 55g each four and water to get the same amount of starter which, due to the larger amount of fresh flour (1:5.5:5.5)  should have more yeast numbers and strength.   (I would also switch out 20g of the wheat flour to rye.)   This will  most likely shorten the overall rising times on the dough which are short anyway due to the large amount of starter in the dough and warm temps.  When the weather changes, the rise times will get longer and you may need that 30g  inoculating starter amount.

"My dough at this stage is always much wetter than what I see in the videos, it doesn't keep its shape and it's sticky. The obvious answer may be to reduce the water proportion in my initial mixing of the dough, but I always fear to do so as it would mean that I would deviate a lot from the prescribed recipe quantities."

When the dough starts to swell, do a few folds to add surface strength.  Watch the shape and gently fold to restore surface tension if needed.  If you are folding and tightening the skin every 45 min,  Put the folded and shaped dough into the banneton for only 30 min (up to an hour.)   It should be proofed by that time and ready to bake.  Don't wait for the volume to "double" from the original volume as that would be overproofed.  Bannetons can be hard to judge volume so take a picture when the dough goes into the banneton and use it to compare as it is proofing.  Then take a picture just before flipping it out.  Dough going into a banneton already has some volume increase so keep that in mind.  :)  

 I once saw little knobs added to a banneton as feet. Thought that clever.  Not only does the banneton get more air around it but the feet can be useful to hold the banneton over a hot pot and direct the falling dough.

Miller's picture
Miller

What a depressing reading my notebook would make! I say this because so far I may have baked may be two or three loaves that I could be satisfied with and none of them was with sourdough.

I'm not giving up. I realize that it's a learning process and I'm having some difficulty now even with the fundamentals.

I will start making notes in a notebook and hopefully I'll find a recipe that works for me. There are so many variables that could cause failures if you are a home baker like me. I suppose that the situation is under better control in a professional environment.

My inexperience and lack of trust in my starter led me to believe that I should use a relatively large quantity of starter. I didn't realize that as you say "due to the larger amount of fresh flour (1:5.5:5.5)  should have more yeast numbers and strength". I shall definitely use a smaller quantity of starter next time, given similar conditions such as room temperature.

As I'm at a learning stage and I can spare the time, I'm ready to cope with odd times for feeding a starter, BF the dough and proving it, in order to get a good result. My plan is then to adjust some of the variables in order to formulate a convenient timetable for occasional baking.

I'll bear in mind your comment about the salt. I usually add 1 to 1.5 tsp per 500g flour. I don't weigh the salt because my kitchen scales will probably give a misleading figure for such a low weight.

My next attempt will draw on my recent mistakes and hopefully I won't repeat them.

Cinnabon's picture
Cinnabon

Mini is so right Miller, I keep a log of all my failures and success in bread making!  Sometimes its just the temperature of the room that can become a failure in the perfect loaf!  Sourdough is really like a baby! You watch it carefully, you keep it warm but not smother it, you give it a love tap every so often and honestly sometimes talk to it ! lol I thank Oscar (my starter) weekly for not letting me down!  Tucking your dough carefully in for a rest! honestly! it's that simple! My failure log has taught me to appreciate when I have a blue ribbon quality bread!

As I said in a previous post, An Artisan is always learning new techniques and applying them to his skill-set to become a master! It's when we can appreciate and master all the steps together and consistently bake that winning loaf is when our (Bread Diary) becomes more positive than negative attempts.

I also find that too much starter can be a failure, rather than just give it a bit more time and patience to do it's job!

I just gave a good friend of mine a loaf of sourdough I baked yesterday! She was extremely grateful! She has tried my bread and told me it's hard to eat store bought when you have had the taste of ambrosia! lol Well, that made my day!.

So, I just fed Oscar and will before bed tonight again to start the process all over again!  I never get tired of making bread that can not only be a catalyst in good health but put a smile on the faces of people we care about!

Cheers!

Miller's picture
Miller

Thanks to everyone's encouragement here I continue my attempts to get a decent sourdough loaf.

I started my notebook and I already made (and recorded) one mistake during my current bake! It's good because as they say, we learn from our mistakes. I'll post an update once the whole process is complete.

Miller's picture
Miller

My recipe was:

Starter: 100% rye

Quantities: Starter 10g

Fed with: 55g bread flour and 55 ml water

Total after feeding: 120 g

Feeding time: 9.5 hours overnight plus 1.25 hours at higher temperature (oven).

Salt: 1.25 tsp

Flour: 340g

Water 180 ml (per formula this is 60% hydration).

1. The starter wouldn't come alive so I warmed the oven to close to 35º C and put the starter inside it.

2. I knew that the hydration was too low, but this was an experimental bake for me.

3. Adding a little flour on the worktop surface helps handle dough wetness. I need to practice this more. I discovered it after I had mixed my dough at the terribly low hydration. If my hydration was normal, then I expect that I would have had a decent result.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

would be interesting to feed the same 10g rye starter with 55g water and a flour mixture of wheat and a little rye flour at the same temps and compare the results.

 I suspect the starter may be protesting the wheat food.  It can happen. Tossing in a little rye into the wheat levain can often help.  It also adds some nice subtle flavours to the dough.  Try it just for me.  Pretty please?  At the end of 9.5 hours. Chill the starter for future use and it should be ready to go for the next loaf in the next few days.  It will slowly ferment in the fridge.  Give it plenty of head room to expand.

Miller's picture
Miller

I'll try feeding 10g of my rye starter as you propose and I'll let you know my findings as soon as possible. So after 9.5 hours I'll check what has happened to the starter. I cannot guarantee exactly the same temperature as before, but it should be quite close if not the same.

UPDATE: I prepared the starter, but I noticed that the mix of 10g rye starter plus 35g rye, 25g bread flour with 55ml water was like a thick paste. I therefore created another starter with the difference being that I doubled the water quantity.

 

Cinnabon's picture
Cinnabon

Hi Miller!

Ryan sure is giving your grief! Oscar has been switched out with so many different types of flours but he always thrives!  Has me wondering what is going on with Ryan?  Oscar always gets equal parts tepid, purified water and flour! To get the workers (Bacteria) congregating I use Stone ground Wheat or stone ground rye or a combination of the two.

My house is not warm right now! Tis the season! but it doesn't stop Oscar from thriving! Every flour will have different enzyme and mineral levels, sometimes it is as simple as changing the flour your feeding him twice a day to get things rolling again! 

When Oscar has spent time in the fridge, sometimes he stalls a bit and needs a few days of double feedings!  When I am planning on making Rogbrod Rye I strictly feed him stones ground rye flour that I mill myself in my Vitamix, until I make the final call of purchasing a grain mill but it has not let me down.

When I have a hard time getting Oscar to perk up because of the house being colder, I turn on the oven light and place the mason jar on the bottom rack, this works fantastic! including resting my dough in-between stretch and folds, otherwise, I just place the jar on the window ledge on a warmer day and let the heat from the sun do the work!  It's winter here and cold!

 Check and see if you have tiny bubbles popping from the surface, the flour could be old, so many things can stall a starter.

I'm sure Ryan just needs to be fed a few more times  but maybe try to stick with 1:1:1: ratios (equal parts) this will give you the best chance of stabilizing Ryan, after he's strong, you can change the ratios to your liking! Some prefer a runny starter and others a more thick based!  Oscar always starts off a thick paste and then within 5-6 hrs he is more of a vigorous muffin batter .

I hope things improve for you soon!  Just hang tight and I'm sure Ryan will reward your efforts soon!

Cheers!

Cindy   

Miller's picture
Miller

The test suggested by Mini Oven did not produce a good result. To be more precise, my starter remained dormant (dare I say dead?) after 9.5 hours. There is a sour smell coming from it, but its consistency is just a thick paste.

Cindy, I decided to revive Ryan and I used a suggestion that I read in a book. I used 30g of my existing starter with 90g rye flour and 180 ml water. I'm supposed to leave it for up to 24 hours and it should liven up. What I noticed after about 2 hours was that the mason jar in which I put the starter was actually slightly warm to the touch. The starter after 2.5 hours looks like this photo.

The small bubbles are only visible at the top of the mason jar.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

sour smell is good.  Hope you didn't throw out the test.  If you still have it, split it into two jars for observation.  Thicken one up with a little rye flour only making a soft dough and just let both stand at around 26°C.  Not warmer.  Let the starter dictate the speed of recovery.  Don't feed more flour until they come around or taste very very sour.

They will come around. That includes the one just pictured (thinned and standing 24 hours) 

Fall and spring weather temperature changes tend to upset sourdough starters.  Happens often enough.  Just need to get the yeast numbers up. Right now don't throw away any starter samples you have.  Keep all samples you've  tucked away in the fridge.  What have you got?

Miller's picture
Miller

What I have now is: 1. The 10g rye starter + 55g rye + 55g water (thick paste consistency). Currently13 hours after feeding it it is showing a few bubbles on the side of the (transparent) container. No activity on top. It smells acidic.

2. The other one which I photographed earlier and for which I used 30g rye starter + 90g rye +180ml water. This one, about 6 hours later is showing less activity on top (no activity visible on the sides of the mason jar) than before and its smell is not sharp, I would say almost pleasant. This one according to the book should be kept for up to 24 hours before the starter is revived.

3. I have more source starter in the fridge, so there is scope for further experimentation if it comes to that.

Following your comments I'll split the #1 starter in two and make half of it into a soft dough. Let's see what will happen!

Cinnabon's picture
Cinnabon

Yes! one of the formulas will be the strongest! That’s the one you build on!  At 1:1:1: you should have a thick paste! When the gremlins start to surface it will become a very bubbly batter like consistency! Changing ratios with less starter and more flour takes longer to stabilize! Been there done that!

cheers!

Miller's picture
Miller

Half of the divided starter has developed small bubbles. I say small because the quantity of the starter is small (about 60g). I put aside 30g of this starter and I fed the other 30g with 30g rye and 30ml water. I don't know if i did right or if I should have kept the whole 60g and fed that quantity with rye and water.

The other part of the original quantity (60g rye) that I made into a soft dough (not too soft in practice) hasn't shown any change.

The 30g rye starter + 90g rye +180ml water is still a little bubbly on top and has shown a very small rise in volume.

I'm waiting to see in which of his many parts Ryan will finally awaken. Plus I'm running out of containers in which to put the various starters!

Cinnabon's picture
Cinnabon

HI Miller:

Good to hear that Ryan is showing signs of recovery!  Your doing fine! Just give it time now! The 30G is plenty to start!  Just keep the feedings happening a few times a day and Ryan will stabilize!! You can build the amount gradually to what you need for a bake and I would always make sure you retain 50G of the starter aside in a separate jar to store in the fridge until needed again for your next bake and build again on that.

I would always try to keep the flour you use to feed Ryan the same variety as the bread you plan to bake!  If your making a Rogbrod 100% Rye then use stone ground rye flour. 

Also it will take time for Ryan to rise and with smaller amounts of starter, you may not see when he rises and falls back!  When Ryan stabilizes ,you'll get to know his vigorous rise and fall patterns.  Use the rubber band to measure this! It works great when you can's physically be watching his actions all the time.

Cheers!   

 

Miller's picture
Miller

At last, my starter has shown signs of life.

In actual fact the results of the trials are as follows:

The 30g of starter which I left alone became relatively active, but sort of dull looking.

The other 30g of starter which I fed with 30g rye and 30ml water became very active overnight and very puffy and stringy. I don't know if it has gone too far, but I decided to feed about 20g of it with 55g bread flour and 55 ml water in order to see if I'll get a decent levain for baking something.

The soft dough that I made as per Mini Oven's suggestion seemed dead, but overnight it improved and by the morning the dough/starter appeared to be alive.

Finally, the 30g starter to which I added 90g rye and 180ml water appeared to have a few bubbles on the top of its surface and did rise a little during the night. However, it smelled very vinegary and its consistency was like pea soup.

I'm beginning to learn that patience is a virtue where sourdough is concerned.

Special thanks to Mini Oven and Cinnabon for their advice and encouragement.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the starters than contain wheat.  They will be slow at first and become vigorous as they adapt to wheat food.  Thin starters don't rise much and thick starters, if dry enough crack first as they swell to reveal a nicely fermented inside.  Pay attention to aroma and taste (can always spit it out.) 

The first one that appeared "dull" looks like a good candidate for a wheat feeding along with equal amounts of water.  Let the starter adapt more to the wheat. 

Be back later...life.

Miller's picture
Miller

I've seen that the starter that I fed with bread flour has doubled in size in about four hours. So, I prepared some dough by adding 240ml water to 360g bread flour which I mixed and left in a covered bowl for about half an hour. I then added the starter and salt and mixed thoroughly. It's kind of sticky, but not terribly so. I intend to leave it in the bowl for 4-6 hours until it doubles in size. From that point I'll follow the steps of the 123 Sourdough recipe.

I'm optimistic that I'll overcome the sticky dough problem that I usually face and also to avoid over-fermentation.

Cinnabon's picture
Cinnabon

Fantastic Miller! I knew Ryan would not let you down.  It does take a bit of patience for sure! 

Now, let's bake some prize wining loaves!

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

what kind of water is in the starters and dough?  Soft water?

Miller's picture
Miller

Tap water that is filtered, not chlorinated.

EDIT: According to the filter machine brochure it’s got a 0.6 micron filter.