The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

123 Sourdough No Knead - Do Nothing Bread

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

123 Sourdough No Knead - Do Nothing Bread

123 Sourdough, No Knead - Do Nothing Bread   Originated by Flo Makanai and submitted by dabrownman 

 A simple recipe with simple procedures. Did you know that you don’t have to knead dough to get great bread. And you don’t need a mixer or really any other tools. But an inexpensive digital scale that weighs grams would be a worthwhile investment. HERE is an example.

 The bread is called 123 Sourdough because the ratios are 1 part Levain, 2 parts water, 3 parts flour, and 2% salt. Let’s choose 100 grams of Levain for this example. So if the Levain is 100g then 2 parts water would be 2 X 100 or 200g water. The flour is 3 parts (remember 123) so 3 X 100 is 300g of flour. Now a tiny bit of math to calculate the required salt. Since the formula calls for 2% salt, you would multiply 0.02 X 350 and you get 7. So 2% times the total weight of the flour, which is 350g equals 7g of salt. Now, if you are paying close attention you should be questioning the 350g of flour. 3 parts of flour is 100 X 3. Where did the extra 50g come from? The Levain is 100% hydration, meaning equal parts of flour and water. Therefore 100g of Levain contains 50g of flour. Salt is calculated as 2% of the total flour in the formula, which is 350g. 

 These instructions assume that you already have an established starter that is active and ready to go. If you don’t have a starter and would like to make one HERE is link that might interest you. Teresa Greenway takes you through the day by day experience of making a starter.

 Make the 1 part levain (for this example of 100g) by taking 10g of starter and mixing equal weights of 45g flour (either All Purpose or Bread Flour) and 45g water in a bowl and cover with plastic wrap and place in a warm spot for 12 hours or until it doubles .

 Put 2 parts water (200g) in a large mixing bowl.  Add the prepared 100g of levain and mix with a spoon until levain dissolves in the water - about 15 to 20 seconds.   Add in 3 parts flour (300g) and 7g of salt.  Mix everything together for about a minute or two in large bowl with a spoon or hands making sure there is no dry flour and everything looks Kosher even if you are not Jewish :) There is no need to knead this dough, thus the name “No Knead - Do Nothing”

 Place bowl in plastic grocery bag.  Make bag air tight by closing with a simple knot.  Let dough double in volume - an estimate of 4 to 6 hours.  Watch the dough not the clock.

 Dump dough out on counter, gently pat out big bubbles, round into ball with hands and cover with the over turned mixing bowl. 15 minutes later, round into tight ball again and put ball into a proofing basket (a bowl will work) lined with a smooth floured cloth with seam side of the dough facing down.  Place container back into the plastic grocery bag again and tie as before.

 Let it proof 1-2 hours till it reaches 90% increase in volume.  Watch the dough not the clock again.  Click HERE for a video showing how to perform a finger polk test. Preheat your oven to 450F with the Combo Cooker inside 45 minutes after you place your dough in basket to proof.

 Gently dump the dough into the preheated cast iron combo cooker, (optional - Spritz dough with water from spray bottle),  cover with the deep lid and put in the 450F oven for 15 minutes of baking with the lid on.

 After 15 minutes remove lid and bake about 12-15 more minutes until bread is nicely browned, cracked open and blistered.  NOTE - since the seam was placed up in the cooker, you should have beautiful, natural looking cracks. Remove bread from Cooker and move it to a wire cooling rack. Let it cool for 2 hours before slicing on a cutting board with a serrated bread knife or just tear off hunks to eat.

 Optional - You can check temperature if you want with instant read thermometer.  When it reads 208 F- 210 F on the inside it is done. If you don’t have a thermometer you can tap the bottom of the loaf and it should make a hollow sound.

 Exercise caution when placing the dough in the hot cast iron pot.  Most of all, enjoy a nice loaf of bread that you made and was easy as pie.

 It you don't have a combo cooker preheat a baking sheet or jelly roll pan.  Dump dough out on parchment paper on a peel and transfer to the pan.  Cover with the stainless steel bowl or some other oven proof large pot.  If you have a baking stone use that in place of the baking sheet. If you choose to bake your bread without a cover (Dutch Oven, Combo Cooker, etc) you can get outstanding results using a technique called Mega Steam. Click HERE to to learn more.

 

Fully documented 123 SD bake with images can be seen HERE.

 

 Happy baking

 

Nice tools to have, but none are necessary. 

Digital Scale

Dough Knife

These links are examples, and not an endorsement for a particular item.

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I posted this recipe so that we would have a link to a basic, straightforward recipe to assist new SD bakers and those struggling to succeed. The instructions have been reduced to a simplistic form in the hopes that new bakers can experience early success before moving on to other breads.

This bread will taste great and look gorgeous. Please post pictures of your breads. If you post questions to this thread, we will do our best to help.

Dan

I thought it good to bake the 123 SD exactly as written. It is documented and photographed to help you through the process. We welcome questions and also suggestions and corrections.

Last night @ 8PM I mixed the Levain and left it out at room temperature to ferment over night.

In a bowl I mixed all of the starter and added water until the scale read 300 grams. (100g starter + 200g water) The mixture will have the consistency of milk.

At around 5AM I began mixing the dough. I stirred with a wet spoon and then used wet fingers to make sure all flour was incorporated and there were no remaining lumps of flour. Total mixing time was 2.5 minutes. NOTE - be careful to shake the water off utensils and hands before using in your dough. A small amount of water can make the dough noticeably wetter. Also make sure the bowl is covered so that the dough doesn’t dry out during the bulk proof.

Yep, it doesn’t look very pretty. But give this mixture some time and things will change...

My room temperature is 75F (24C). NOTE - the temperature of the area where your dough ferments makes a huge difference. Warmer temps = faster fermentation - Cooler temps = slower. Temperature is as important as any other factor in bread baking. That’s why you will often read, “watch the dough, not the clock”.

Below is an image of the dough after it bulk proofed for 6.5 hours. Even though the instructions stated 4-6 hours, I watched the dough, not the clock. I felt my dough was a little slow rising, so after about 4.5 hours I decided to move it to a slightly warmer spot.

The fermented dough shows signs of gluten development. Notice the increase in size and also the smoother skin of the bottom image. Compare the image on top with the bottom image to see the growth of the dough.

It’s time to get this baby into shape! The dough is carefully turned out onto the counter using damp hands or a damp flexible scraper. The top of the dough in the bowl is now  facing down on the counter.

As instructed, the dough was folded by gently grabbing the edge of the dough with damp fingers from the bottom to the middle, then folded top to middle, and the same for both the left and right sides. After the 4 folds where completed I turned the dough over so that the folds were on the bottom now. With both floured handles cradling each side of the dough it was turned in a circular motion in order to “round it up”. With floured hands I gently placed the dough into the floured cloth lined basket with the folded side of the dough facing the bottom of the basket and downwards. The smooth side is up. Isn’t it amazing how time and hydration will change a lump of slop into such a smooth, strong dough, and you didn’t have to do much?

The sides of the towel was gently folded over the top of the dough on all 4 sides and then placed in a plastic bag to prevent drying out. - disclaimer - I generally use Walmart bags, but I decided to use the “good stuff” for this one ;-)

Well this baby is tucked into bed and ready for a little nap...

 

The dough ended up proofing for 2.5 hours. The affect of room temperature can not be over emphasized. It was overcast today and the room stayed around 72-73F. I think the times mentioned in the recipe above would have been more accurate if the room temp would have been around 76F. Also when estimating times it is impossible to know the characteristics of the starter (Levain) of others. Once again, watch the dough, not the clock.

Notice the increase in size, since the the beginning of proof.

You can see in the image below surface indents that remain from the folds that were done to shape the ball. These folds where placed on the top so that they will create fissures in the crust. This No Knead, Do Nothing Bread is also a No Score dough. In future bakes you can incorporate scoring. The dough is ready to face the heat.

CAUTION - Cast Iron is extremely hot and can hurt you. Putting your oven gloves or mits on the hot pot is a good way to remind yourself and others of the danger.

You got to love that first peek once the cover is removed. It’s kinda’ like a box of chocolates, you never know what ya’ gonna get :-)

Now tell me something. Who wouldn’t be happy to bake a loaf like this? You didn’t have to use an expensive mixer, you didn’t get a workout kneading, and you did so little work, you could say you “did nothing” :-)

It’s time to eat...

If you are new to sourdough baking and decide to bake this recipe as a loaf for learning, please do your best to follow the recipe as written. Changing things on your first bake will add variables that can complicate troubleshooting. After you have successfully baked this bread as is, you will be better prepared to venture out with this formula or any other as you wish. Experimentation is at the heart of all avid bakers. But it is most efficient if you learn to walk first, and then run.

Wishing you great success!

Dan 

 

FloArnaud's picture
FloArnaud

Fantastic illustration of my 123 formula, thank you so much Dan !

Flo

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Flo, we decided to use your formula for bakers that are new to sourdough. Dab, aka dabrownman wrote most of the instructions. We use this link for a resource to help the new SD baker get starter.

Dan

Benito's picture
Benito

Hey Danny, I'm wondering if you still lightly oil the work surface and your hands when you are shaping the dough?  I used to use that method when making yeasted breads but stopped when making sourdoughs because none of the recipes I read recommended doing that?  If you are still using this method, does it affect the crust or bread very much?

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

An extremely small amount of oil is used. And only if necessary. I seldom use this technique anymore, since I have developed a light touch.

But, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it. Never noticed any ill affects.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

I may try it, I haven't developed a light touch yet when handling the dough.  I try to keep the flour to a minimum but when handling high hydration dough I feel I use either too much or too little flour.  I need much more practice.

Benny

nmygarden's picture
nmygarden

Thanks for posting. Great for beginners, and all around, provides a platform to launch variations and spread our wings... One of my goals for baking was the ability to improvise with ingredients on-hand, and as I please. Now, I do it nearly all the time, and the 1-2-3 ratios give me a solid place to begin.

Looking forward to seeing photos and hearing the stories, from the first loaves, to accomplishments achieved.

Cathy

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

There are a lot of good recipes for 123 bread on this site. See the past 123 Challenge post for some interesting ingredient ideas!

Thanks for refreshing this, Danny.

Jay's picture
Jay

Thanks so much for posting this! People here have been kindly advising I try a 1 2 3 loaf to practice with before moving on to more complicated recipes again (I got ahead of myself to start), but I haven't been able to find one with any actual directions other than ones where people are talking about how they altered the recipe to make it better. This will be a great help since I'm planning on a 1 2 3 on Wednesday!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Post pictures and feel free to ask questions. We are all hoping for great success!

Dan

Jay's picture
Jay

I definitely will! Oh, and a quick question. I know this is posted as a no knead do nothing bread, but will it be better/worse/the same if I give it an autolyse, do some stretch and folds during bulk, and do the final proofing overnight in the fridge? I'm a complete sourdough newbie and I'd really like to at least practice the stretch and fold technique, but I'm thinking this is probably too low hydration a dough for that to be practical from what I've read? 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Jay, why not try the instructions as is. Then if all things look good with the bake you can alter the techniques to include other procedures. The idea of these instructions are to simplify the initial bake for a new sourdough baker. 

Of course, you are free to do as you wish, but why not bake this beautiful bread until you succeed and then spread your wings a little at a time?

Good Luck with whatever you choose to do.

Actually, I’m going to bake this bread next :) You can go directly to the bake HERE .

Dan

Jay's picture
Jay

I'll probably stick to the basics this time as you suggest, but the overnight in the fridge is a time issue for when I can make the dough vs when I want to actually bake the bread. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yes, the overnight proof in the frig (if your refrigerator is cold enough, approximately 38F) is great. I love that method and use it on most doughs. Try it as written if you can and report your results.

After you get this one down, I'd use the retard also. It's a real life saver.

Dan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

but then it might be better or worse for you an you can blame it on this recipe:-)  Go for it -practice makes perfect and it is only about 50 cents worth of stuff tp toss it it really goes worse:-)

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

could i ask a question about the starter please?  i understand that i need to take 10g from it and feed it more flour/water for a levain.  but whats the process for looking after the original starter?  i have around 350g of starter, so when do i replace some?  how do i keep it in good shape if im only taking 10g out at a time?  i usually take 300g out for the recipe, leave it at 50g, refridgerate, then replace 300g a few hours before the next loaf.

thank you

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

just take from your starter the full levain amount after building in the formula and use that as your 1 in the formula.

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

thank you, so just to confirm, i can use 100g of 50/50 starter. 

do you think my starter would fare better if i reduced it (so threw away around 200g)?  i was under the impression that a starter feeds better just by having around 50g left, and adding more flour/water.  so by only using and topping up 100g each time, it would be more active with just a small amount rather than adding the 100g back to a pot containing 200g already?

hope thats not too confusing :-)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I'm going to wait and see if someone else will field your question. But, I hope to add a link to another post that deals with starters and levains.

Danny

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

recently fed ready to go.  If that is the case then use 100g of it for the 1 in the formula.  If it is stored in the fridge and not ready to go or recently refreshed, then build the levain, with 10 g of the stored starter  with 45g each of flour and water and let it double before using.

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

no its not on the counter, its in the fridge as i only bake around once every 5 days or so.  ok, ill build the levain as per the recipe, with 10g of refridgerated starter, but then when do i feed that starter again?  ill obviously go down from 300 to 290, to 280 over 10 days for example, but surely that refridgerated starter will need some attention to keep it healthy?

thanks

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

like usual and feed it then

NYC_BreadGuy's picture
NYC_BreadGuy

The recipe first says to add 7g of salt. Later in the recipe it says to add 6g of salt?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m going to correct this now.

Please let us know if you find any other discrepancies.

Dan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the mega steam option at the end.  There is that 7 g of salt coming back to haunt you:-)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mega Steam (SylviaH) link has been added. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Deleted - Duplicate Post

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

hits the heat of the oven.  Bloom, brown and blisters.  You got 2 of the 3 but, since you didn't spritz, you missed out on the blisters.  It turned out very nice as it is though and any bakery would be proud to sell this fine SD bread for $4 or $8 if you were in San Francisco and $10 if you were Chad Robertson:-)  It doesn't do some of the things we do every time like: a preshape, slap and folds or stretch and folds or other things that help the flavor like: a bulk retard or shaped retard and there isn't any scoring to practice on but, for a first. simple SD bread that will be successful every time it is tough to beat and sure to hook the first timer for life!  Great SD bread for a buck and beats yeast, white, crap sandwich bread for $2 at the store.  How far can the other things above, whole grains, add ins, soritign, home milling, malting etc be away for a newbie who succeeded from bake 1? 

Very nice Dan and happy baking!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

great step by step. 

Leslie

Portus's picture
Portus

Dan’s detailed “magnum opus” for 123 Sourdough brings to mind the instruction – First Catch Your Hare – often, but incorrectly, attributed to Mrs Beeton as a preface to her recipe for “Jugged Hare”.  Well done Dan, you have left little to chance!

NYC_BreadGuy's picture
NYC_BreadGuy

As a new to sourdough baker this recipe worked excellent for me. I do have to admit that after proofing for about an hour I did stick it into the fridge overnight because we have company coming over today and I wanted to serve the bread as fresh as possible. I was shocked how much it rose in my lodge 3qt. dutch oven. Thank you very much for this recipe!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Can't wait to see the crumb.  Very nice indeed.  

Jay's picture
Jay

Well, I forgot to take pictures earlier in the process, but I'm at the bench rest stage using the recipe as is but doubled. I'm going to do a boule in my DO and a batard, since I have one banneton my MIL bought me for batards. 

sourdough boule bench rest

Will try to remember to take pictures after the final proofing. It's very very sticky, though, and stuck badly to the bench and to my hands when I lifted it to put it in the proofing baskets. I'm hoping I didn't lose too much of the rise in the process and that it won't stick to my banneton when I try to pull it out. I floured it heavily, but I think I probably should have put a floured cloth in it instead. Fingers crossed and will update with more pictures. 

Yeah... they're bricks. Definitely got melted into the basket and liner by the toaster oven being turned on under them. Starting again from scratch tonight for a bake tomorrow night.

That's the better looking of the two. >.<

Okay, it's definitely not *good*, but it's nowhere near as bad as I was expecting. And fortunately FIL has incredibly low standards and thinks it's amazing? I haven't tried it yet, my husband texted me the pictures when he and FIL broke into it. It looks decidedly gummy in the middle to me,  but I'm glad it's not going to go to waste at least, and I'll try again tomorrow. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Every time!  looking really good so far.

Jay's picture
Jay

I did wet my hands, but I was trying to avoid any more flour per a lot of sites I've seen saying not to add more flour at any point. I think in future I'm definitely going to use some flour, though, b/c it really stuck to my hands when I put it into the baskets, and they both look like I didn't bother to round them or get a tight skin on them at all. Hopefully they'll be delightful regardless, though!

 

Thanks. 

Jay's picture
Jay

Sadly, they're going to be a disaster from the looks of it. Someone (probably MIL, though no one will admit to it) turned my oven off while it was preheating, I didn't discover it until I was going to put the first loaf in. So had to hold off for another 45 minutes of preheat. During which time someone turned the toaster oven on under my proofing bread--I put it up there to be under one of the kitchen lights and out of drafts--and basically melted the bottom of both loaves. I just went to put the first one into the DO and about 1/4 of the dough stuck to the VERY well floured tea towel I'd lined its bowl with, and it looks like the other one will probably stick to the banneton. I am pretty frustrated atm... and am going to go pull my starter out of the fridge to start building up a new levain to try again tomorrow. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Jay, I think you may get the award for the most bad luck during a single bake :)  

Tenacity is a characteristic of every great baker. It looks like you have it in loads ... “I am pretty frustrated atm... and am going to go pull my starter out of the fridge to start building up a new levain to try again.

I have a suggestion that works well. When working with dough that sticks, LIGHTLY oiled hands and also the counter works extremely well for me. The thinnest coating is all that is necessary. OH! I just thought, you can also lightly oil the bowl. This will make removing the dough a breeze. So after the mix your dough by hand, you can get another bowl and oil it, then take your dough and put it into the oiled bowl to bulk proof. When the bulk proof is complete, lightly oil your hands and then rub your oiled hands on the counter top to oil it. You should be able to handle your dough much better this time.

A master baker on the forum Trevor Wilson says, “don’t grab the dough, let the dough grab you”. Bread dough is sticky and if you touch it with care it will hug you back :) The lightest touch is often all that is necessary to handle the dough.

You could use the same technique with water, but oil last longer. and the tiniest amount of oil will do the trick.

When you bake this time, maybe put a sign to alert everyone to NOT MESS WITH THE OVEN!

Good Luck with your next bake.

Dan

Jay's picture
Jay

Just as I was mixing my dough this morning after weespawn's birthday breakfast I got a phone call to FINALLY get weespawn (19) in for an emergency dental appointment we've been trying to get since last Monday, that involved two dentist changes for various reasons. The appointment was in an hour. 30 minutes away. Finished throwing dough together as fast as I could and ran off to spend almost 3 hours at the dentist. Came back to have to work doubletime to get weepsawn's birthday dinner and dessert for 10 thrown together, eat said meal, clean up after said meal... remember proofing dough, which is now massively overproofed. 

Have shaped it as best I can and tossed it in the fridge overnight to try and bake tomorrow, b/c I'm wiped and my back is shot

Hopefully it's not a complete lost cause

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

when you have the time to spend on it.  It is too stupid to know it is being put in time out before bulk ferment.  it could have stayed there for 2 days if -necessary and then all you ga=had to do wa see if it had risen to 50% or not and take up from there.

It think I might have done a few slap and folds to get the gluten back in shape and redistribute the wee beasties before shaping but Still it might surprise you and be just fine as is:-)

Fingers crossed

Jay's picture
Jay

Yeah, if I hadn't been so frazzled about getting out the door, or had realized how much of the day the dental appointment would take I would have done that. The day just really got away from me, which is more frustrating than it would otherwise be b/c it's day 2 of the comedy of bread errors. But we'll see how it turns out... and I'll just start again *tomorrow* if it comes to it. >.<

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The image of the over proofed dough in the pot shows how well a dough can develop on its own, without any kneading. As Dabrownman said, refrigerating the dough would have slowed the fermentation down tremendously. 

There are many tricks that you will learn along the way. 

Dan

Jay's picture
Jay

My loaves were, in fact, bricks on that bake. Well, that's not fair to say, I suppose. They LOOKED like bricks, didn't have any oven spring at all, just about flat as pancakes, and I was too demoralized to take pictures. But FIL insisted on trying them and... the crumb was actually fairly open and light and the taste was decent. So they've been eaten.

 

Finally trying again today, though, after a lot of chaos in RL. Only doing one loaf this time, and totally forgot to take any pictures until after its second proof, but everything's gone to plan this time and IT IS RISING IN THE OVEN!

I scored b/c it was so wet and sticky that it didn't seem to actually have any seam from having shaped it, will update when it's out of the oven. 

SUCCESS!

Hoping the crumb looks as nice as the outside. My family's not a fan of the really dark crust, so I took it out a couple minutes short of the full time and hoping the crumb will not suffer for it. Will post again in a couple hours once it's cool, but I am ridiculously happy with how it rose--though I didn't get the last score deep enough, clearly. Still, by far the best so far!

 

And a success all 'round! I cut it a little too soon (2 hours after bake, felt completely cool to the touch, but was still a bit warm inside), but the crumb didn't get really gummy. Flavor was excellent, nice texture, and the whole thing's gone. 

Think I'm going to bake this again on Sunday but double the recipe for a larger loaf. Thanks so much for the advice and encouragement all! 

Jay

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your bread looks great! It rose well and is standing tall. I have cnfidence your crumb will be fine. Perseverance really pays off.

Oh, if you tap the bottom of the loaf and it has a hollow sound it is fully baked. If you need to bake a bread longer, but the crust is getting too dark, you can put a sheet of aluminum foil over the top and it will not brown any more. The foil doesn’t need to be tight, just let it cover the top like an umbrella.

Success, success, sweet success...

Dan

Great things are in store for those who preserve.

Jay's picture
Jay

You know, I've done the aluminum foil thing with pie crusts for 30 years, you'd think it would occur to me with bread. It was nice and hollow and well-cooked throughout, though. Very happy with this recipe, thanks so much for posting it and providing advice and encouragement. 

Oh, question... if I double the recipe but just make one larger loaf will the bake time be the same, do you know, or will it need longer? With a cake I'd increase the time, but I have no idea with bread. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Off the top of my head, I’d say not much longer bake time. My loaves range from 500-1000g. But I’m not sure. I watch the color of the crust, remove when it turns that color, and then give the bottom a tap. For months I’ve been baking 20 minutes covered, anywhere from 550-460F. Then uncovered for 10 minutes @ 500-425F. Sometimes I need to extend the uncovered time by as much as 10 minutes. As far as I can remember, when the crust gets dark the crumb is baked. Normally a dark crust is the goal.

The above works for me, but ovens vary a good bite. Experiment anf find what works best for you. When it comes to bread there are few absolutes.

Dan

NYC_BreadGuy's picture
NYC_BreadGuy

I like cornmeal on the bottom of my bread which I added. My wife said the bread is very delicious and I agree!

Here is the crumb shot.

 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You passed the test with flying colors. It’s beautiful in every way. If every bread I baked had a crumb like yours I would be thrilled.

Now that you know the rudiments of SD bread, I recommend you slowly add to your baking skills. Retarding and stretch and folds come to mind. Retarding is a great tool for time management, as you know. It also adds a wonderful flavor, because the acids are multiplying faster than the yeast in the dough when it is kept cool. Stretch and folds bring strength and structure to the dough, building many layers of gluten. Should you decide to score make sure the dough is placed in the basket with the folds down instead of up.

Try to make changes gradual. A little here, a little there. As you gain succees in one area, move on to the next. 

Start a new thread for your next bake. We’d love to see photos and hear how things go.

Dan

OH! When you become a master baker, don’t forget us little guys ;-)

Jay's picture
Jay

That's beautiful. 

NYC_BreadGuy's picture
NYC_BreadGuy

Thank you DanAyo. I'm already thinking about buying a small wine fridge for my dough and best of all my wife likes the idea too! :-)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

range and keeping them at 55 F and forget about them...... for about 8 years and I would consider one that holds about 100 bottles that you can add about 12 to each year as you start drinking them in 8 years for special occasions when they are very nice at about $100 each.   Put the bread dough in the fridge:-)  Just sayin'......Heck, I should do that too:-)  Maybe 200 bottles would be better at my age........

NYC_BreadGuy's picture
NYC_BreadGuy

We don't drink though. However I'm still not sure if we should get a mini fridge or wine cooler.

krustyone's picture
krustyone

So I tried this today.

My starter is pure rye, I believe 100% hydration.

I had quite a bit of starter, so I used 100g starter, 200g water, 300g white flour. 

The first proof rose about 100% after 4.5 hours. However, when I took it out of the mixing bowl and put it on the counter, it was too wet and sticky to fold. It was getting stuck to the surface and wouldnt fold by hand, nor could it be flipped over.

Any tips on why this might be?

Had high hopes for finally getting an edible loaf with this recipe.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hey Krusty, whenever possible send pictures.

You don’t have to take the dough out of the bowl to fold. Take a look at this video, starting at 2:50 minutes. http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/ Stretch and folding will make your dough stronger and easier to handle as the process continues.

Shout back if you need more help.

Danny

TIP - when working with a sticky dough you can LIGHTLY oil the counter, tools, and hands. LIGHTLY oiling the bowl will also prevent sticking.

But normally, you should be able to stretch and fold in your bowl with no oil, just be gentle when youpickup the dough. There is a great statement made by Trevor Wilson, “you don’t grab the dough, the dough grabs you”. Let the dough slightly stick to your hands and then only squeeze it as tight as necessary. The video mentioned above was made by Trevor. As you watch it notice how gentle he touches the dough.

UPDATE: Krusty, I think I misunderstood what you said. You were having problems forming the dough into a pre-shaped ball, not doing stretch and folds. Do I understand correctly now? If that is the case, try this. LIGHTLY oil the counter top with food grade oil. Rub your hands over the counter top to spread the oil and also coat your hands. Now gently turn out the dough onto the counter. I put the top side down. Then gently slide your hands under the dough at 12 o’clock. Lift that portion of dough up and then fold it over the top of the dough near the center. Do the same from all 4 sides. If you need to fold a few times more to make a nice ball do so, but try not to degas the dough in the process. Then gently scoop it up and flip it over so that what was the bottom is now on the top. This is the pre-shape. Let it rest on the bench for 15-20 minutes. To do the final shape you can place your hands on each side of the dough. Then gently squeeze your hands together where the dough and counter meet (at the bottom). Then with both hand make a circular motion to “round up” the dough and slightly tighten the bottom.

krustyone's picture
krustyone

Thanks Danny I will take photos during my next attempt tomorrow. When I was folding like that it wasn't anywhere near as solid as the video. The dough was coming off and sticking to everything rather than folding easily like in the video. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

next time you could try doing your preshape a little earlier ie before the dough has doubled.  It will often be much easier to handle and less sticky.  I used to leave mine until double but now prefer it to be no more than say 70%.    

Another thought, how sticky was the dough when you were doing stretch and folds?

Leslie

krustyone's picture
krustyone

Hi leslie,

The stretch and folds were close to impossible as it was not really pulling much of the dough across, was kinda falling apart and sticking everywhere.

Have a new batch proofing now, so I will report back later. Fingers crossed!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I might not be able to help but someone else will be able to.

Did you use a mixer (if yes details pls) or did you hand mix.? did the dough form a cohesive dough?  slap and folds or stretch and folds initially? I think you said stretch and fold was very difficult.  what flour did you use - how much protein? 

let us know so we can help.

Leslie

krustyone's picture
krustyone

So I'm following the 123 no knead method.

Using a 100% hydration rye flour starter.

My dough mix is:

100g starter / 200g water / 300g white flour / 7g salt

I throw all the ingredients in a mixing bowl and mix them thoroughly with a spoon/hands so that it was all well mixed together. No slapping or folding, just a good mix so all the ingredients were well combined. Probably 2-3 mins of mixing.

I then placed the mix in a plastic bag for around 4 hours, having the odd peak to see how much it had grown, waiting to see around 100% growth.

Then I floured the work surface and my hands and put the mix from the bowl to the counter. That's when things got tricky as when I tried to fold the dough it kinda just pulled off the full mix and the whole lump stuck to the work surface entirely.

Hope that gives you something useful to work with. I'm currently proofing my next attempt, so hopefully this one goes better. Have taken photos this time so can upload if I encounter the same issues. Thanks!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I think there may be some confusion.  You mentioned a problem with stretching and folding after the 4 hr bulk ferment. What I think you are saying is when you come to the stage of pre-shaping your dough, things go very wrong. If I understand you correctly, you are technically pre-shaping your dough and not doing Stretch and Folds (S&F). S&F are used in a lot of breads, but these instructions eliminate them to simplify the first few bakes of a new baker. S&F are used to built strength and structure in a dough during the Bulk Fermentation (BF) stage.

If you are at the pre-shape stage, it should be rather easy to fold up your dough into a ball for shaping. The formula is not considered very high hydration. What type and brand of flour are you using? Maybe this has something to do with your problems.

Dan

A light coat of oil should be a great help. I like to use oil because there is no danger of inadvertently adding too much flour. But LIGHTLY oiling is the key.

Here is a tool that almost all bakers use. It is used to handle, flip, turn and fold dough. It is also great for dividing and cutting dough into smaller pieces. https://www.amazon.com/Norpro-Stainless-Steel-Scraper-Chopper/dp/B000SSZ4Q4/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1531483143&sr=8-7&keywords=Dough+knife&dpID=41C-YqhWXIL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch 

krustyone's picture
krustyone

So my 3rd attempt went a lot better for the most part. Here are a few pics: 

Starter

Starter

This is after mixing the starter with the 200g water and 300g of flour and salt.

It grew a decent amount during the first proof of 5 hours.

and this time the 4 folds went a lot better. Flipped and shaped it a little. 

Popped it into the proofing basket for the 2nd time.

We left this proof for 3 hours, peaking every 30 mins, but unfortunately it didn't really grow in volume at all.

Finally, heated the oven, popped it into the Dutch oven after 45 mins of pre-heating, spritzed a little with some water and covered for 15 mins, then another 15 mins without the cover.

Final loaf was really small and flat, but the inside looks good and flavour is good. Now I need to figure out why the volume didn't increase at all during the second proof.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the dough in the basket is way way too small for that huge basket.  A 100% proof would be about about 1/3" rise which would be too small to notice at my age.  You over proofed it as a result of the basket being too small for teh dough.  Put a large leak proof plastic bag in your basket and zero it on your scale.  Put 2280 g of water in the bag and mark where the water level ends up on the basket.

Now double the amount of dough you make 200 g of starter, 400 g of water and 600 g of flour - 1200 g total.   You want it to rise 90% so 120o times 1.9 = 2280 g the mare you made on your basket.  When the dough hits that mark on the final proof chuck it in the oven after spritzing it.  Us a DO of some kind or a cover or Mega Steam with lava rocks for the first 20 minutes at 450 F.  Then take the lid off and bake at 425 F until the middle hits 208 - 210 F.  Now you are assured that the bread will be proofed perfectly and end up with a great loaf of bread.

Now you will get that gret crumb with that great spring and bloom.

Next time is the charm. - no worries - you can bet on it.

krustyone's picture
krustyone

Thanks so much for the advice. Will report back after my next attempt.

Jay's picture
Jay

Now that I finally got it right the 3d time I'm giving it another go, this time doubling the recipe to make one, larger loaf. Probably a batard so it'll be somewhat sandwich shaped. I got a later start than I'd have liked due to a particularly bad night, so I didn't build my levain until noon. But I'm a night owl, plus my starters have been doubling in easily 6 hours or less this week, so we'll see where that gets me. Will be updating this with pictures and commentary as I go.

levain

Life got away from me a bit *again*, but this time I remembered the advice to put the dough in the fridge so as not to have to worry too much about it. So here it is after coming out and coming up to room temperature:

It seemed excessively sticky, and when I tried to release it from the bowl I was pretty sure I degassed it badly, so... I gave it a few stretch and folds and let it sit for an hour or so, at which point it looked a lot better. Of course, I forgot to take a picture of it in the bowl... and of the preshape, but here it is in my improvised banneton for a batard shape:

It's a pretty low-sided, oval casserole dish that I lined with a couple rolled up tea towels under the floured liner to get about the right dimensions. Hopefully it won't rise too far past the top edge. I am... moderately okay with how I shaped it, though it did stick badly to my work surface again and I had to use more flour than I'm happy with. 

Thoughts on the fact that my work surface is a pullout wooden kitchen cutting board that I remove fully and set on the (uneven tile) countertop for a flat surface... oil would probably be a preferable way to avoid sticking, but I'm pretty sure that oiling the cutting board would be a bad life choice, as it would just soak in. Yes/no/maybe? 

In any case, I'm giving it an hour and then I'll check it and see where that puts me. And I honestly think I'm going to jump to a more complicated recipe next time, b/c I think being more engaged with more to actually do to facilitate the whole process will actually work better for me, even if my results are questionable for a while. At least I have an appreciative audience that's willing to even eat the bricks I produce. :D

Well, it definitely spread out more than up, and I'm 99% sure I managed to overproof it, but emergency vet trip definitely pre-empted baking. Happily, it might not look great or be what I was aiming for, but it's perfectly edible and, in fact, very tasty, just the crumb's a bit dense and gummy, but it'll all go happily to sandwiches regardless.

Gonna start the 50/50 community bake today, b/c even if this still isn't turning out right it's mostly b/c life keeps getting in the way and I would like to try something different now, and I put the levain together for it last night. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

why didn't you double the recipe and put it into the rice floured basket that is was supposed to go into?  it would be so much easier that way and don't forget to oil the bowl so the dough doesn't stick:-)

Jay's picture
Jay

Because I don't have a nice floured basket big enough for a full size loaf, just a teeny basket. So jerry-rigging was a thing. And none of the recipes I've seen for sourdough so far have said to oil the bowl (whereas all the non sourdough recipes I've ever used have), so I assumed you weren't supposed to oil it with sourdough for whatever reason. But that is definitely a thing I'll start doing if it's kosher. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Sure Jay, a light coating of oil hurts nothing. Peter Rienhardt, a widly known and accepted master baker uses oil all the time. Since it works for him, it is good for me.

I often LIGHTLY oil the counter top, tools, bowls, and hands. A little oil goes a long way. Use it sparingly.

Dan

Jay's picture
Jay

Excellent, thanks so much I'm sure that will make things *much* easier going forward.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, try using a tiny bit of spray oil or put some oil on one hand and then rub your hands together. Once both hands are oily, rub them on the counter top to apply a light coating of oil. Don't be too worried about adding too much oil. It is not really a big deal, unless you go way overboard.

Peter Reinhardt uses quite a bit of oil, and he knows what he is doing...

Danny

Benito's picture
Benito

Great advice, I will try this with my next bake, thanks Danny.

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, I forgot to add that water works almost as well as oil. A spray bottle filled with water works best and only applies a small amount at a time. Spritz one hand, then rub both hands together. Once your hands are wet rub them on the counter to moisten it.

Benito's picture
Benito

Hmmmm I've never tried that other than wetting my hands prior to stretch and folds.  I will have to try that too at some point, thanks again Danny.

Benny