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When to put new starter in fridge? Tropical climate question

frangipani's picture
frangipani

When to put new starter in fridge? Tropical climate question

Hello all,

Am based in Kolkata, India, where the ambient daytime temps right now are around 28-32C, and nighttime temps in the mid to low 20s celcius.

I started a 100% hydration starter eight days ago, and have been discarding and feeding it every morning. It is now doubling nicely within about 6 hours. No bad smells so far. The recipe (from Teresa Greenway's Udemy course on Sourdough baking) says at one point that from day 6 I can start feeding it twice a day, but then also says that I should feed it once every day till day 14, after which I can bake with it, and put it in the fridge.

Given my temps and the time it's taking to double, is it time now to

1) feed it twice a day for a few more days before putting it in the fridge?

or

2) put it in the fridge right now, and feed only when I need to bake with it?

or

3) should I continue feeding it once a day for a few more days (till day 14) and then put it in the fridge?

I have been making lots of fun things with the discard, but after many failed attempts I am keen to keep this starter alive and not let it get mold or bad due to the high temps or low feeding.

Thanks!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I assume you watched a video by Teresa. Can you send me the link to the video (with the time location) where she says, “to feed once a day for the remaining 14 days”? 

Once your stater starts to mature, you will probably want to feed twice a day at 12 hr intervals. You also want to keep your starter out of the fridge for a couple of weeks to get it stronger.

Here is a great way to use discarded starter. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60281/olive-oil-herbs-de-provence-sourdough-discard-crackers

Danny

frangipani's picture
frangipani

I am following a pdf file that is part of the course materials, which has daily instructions for the starter. Here is what it says:

"Day 4: ...At this point you should begin to feed your starter twice a day. The amount of starter is small and so is the food, you can feed it once a day, but it will be more vigorous and healthy if you feed it every 12 hours. Do not keep the starter in the refrigerator at this point unless you have to because of excessive heat....

(Day 5 feeding plus details about using juice...)

Day 6-14: Continue to discard all but 30-50 gms of starter and feed 50-60 grams of flour and 50-60 ml of water each day. Do not refrigerate at this point. Keep your starter at room temperature."

I have to manually type it out (protected file) so am giving the sentences that confused me.

After reading all your responses, am thinking I should feed the starter once in the evening, leave it out on counter, and then refrigerate in the morning, bring it out again when I come back from work around 5 pm?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

present many problems for sourdough starters.  Here's my suggestion.  

If you want to give the starter any counter time outside the fridge, do it late in the evening when temps have dropped and only for part of the day.  

Feed once a day in the evening but with a high ratio of flour, at least double what you are feeding now. Let the starter stand out to ferment.  Then chill the starter (no feeding) in the morning before the temperatures go up.  The starter will stay nice and cool during the heat of the day.  :). You can use the starter anytime during the day and into the night for a recipe.  

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Wow! I didn’t convert Celsius to Fahrenheit. That’s 86F. That is super hot. I’m not sure you can get 12hr feeds with any kind of feed ratio at that kind of temp without cooling things down some.

frangipani's picture
frangipani

Hmm, thank you. I have been adding 50 gms of flour and 50 ml of water daily. How would you suggest I adjust to a higher ratio of flour? 100 gms/100 ml ?

Your suggestion about feeding in the evening, leaving out on the counter and then putting in the fridge is interesting, will try that. If the starter's doubling in 6-7 hours, how many more days, do you think, before it is ready to bake a loaf with?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to feed if you are not using the starter, which you can, right now, in baking.  If your starter can double, it can also triple and quadruple if given enough flour to keep it going.  Don't be satisfied with the starter doubling, let it peak before feeding again.  More often than not, it will peak at a higher volume than "double" when the yeast population is big enough.  Don't let yourself get hung up on "double" as a rule. "Double volume" is only a rough measurement and it is easy to overlook the whole picture of fermentation.  It limits your observation but useful when talking about an estimate based on trapping gas.  

Your starter will noticeably get stronger each day, even when chilled more than half the time in the fridge.  (If you were sitting in a snow bank, I'd be giving you the opposite advice, keep it warm for half the day or longer.)  Just like recipes, it helps to understand where the recipe and instructions are coming from. What country and climate.   Most starter instructions were designed for temperate zones.  With the added heat of the tropics, your times will often be shorter, fermenting faster, and a constant battle with mold.  

Heat gives advantage to the bacteria in the starter and this can often upset the desired balance of bacteria to yeast colonies growing in the starter.  The way to counter balance is to feed larger when the starter indicates it has a yeast population growing.  When it shows signs of trapping gas and rising, cool it down to 26° to slow the bacteria and encourage the yeast before the bacteria can increase to the point where they Interfere with the yeast.  Any temp above 26°C starts to flavour bacteria over yeast.  (Warmth isn't as big a problem with commercial yeast.) 

So feeding.  50g starter is a lot to feed, you'll be swimming in extra starter quickly if you are not baking with it.  The best way is to reduce the amount of starter to feed less starter.  Try just a teaspoon or an amount between 5 and 10g.  Then add 4 or 5 times the flour and water.  10g starter, 50g water and 50 g flour  stir it up in a clean jar, cover to keep out bugs and let it peak out so you can watch the timing.  Peaking does not mean all the food is used, if you stir it, redistribute the food, it will rise again.  So when you chill it at peak, it will be fine for 24 hours until you feed it again.  That is a flexible 24 hours too. You can also wait a day longer in the fridge if it is nice and cold in there. (4-6°C).  I would stick to a daily schedule the first week of this. You can now save the discards in the fridge if you want to.  The first week of starting a starter, it is unwise to save the discards for health reasons but your starter sounds like it is over the bacteria sorting out phase and into the yeast build phase.

Your starter will also respond with a rise soon or later depending on the amount of flour you feed it.  Less water will also slow a starter down.  You can vary the feeding to fit into your desired schedule nudging the starter to suit your preferences.  There are some limitations.  I wouldn't feed less starter than 5g. You can go up to 10 times the flour with no real problems but this is often done to get lots of yeast, less bacteria. I wouldn't do it as a maintenance feeding and return to lower ratios after one or two feeds.   Don't feed less than the starter amount of flour unless you only want to delay using the starter for a few hours or need just a little bit more starter.  A small feed = fast fermentation.

You may also find yourself changing this  1:5:5 ratio feeding pattern once the starter is predictable.  You may decide to feed it anytime during the day, let it increase about 1/3 of the original volume and then chill it for weeks at a time.  Taking out only 10g to build for the next day's bake.  Then when the refrigerator starter gets low or not as perky, make another one. Use it or what is left from the last bake to make a new refrigerator starter and keep the old one around as a back-up until the new starter has proved itself.  It never hurts to let the starter peak out to judge it one a month or so and then feed again, waiting for it to start rising before chilling again.  A lot depends on the refrigerator temps and the amount of fermentation when chilled.  

frangipani's picture
frangipani

This is all very helpful! Currently I discard most of my starter and keep about 20 g, then add 50g flour and 50 ml water.

I kept half the starter in the fridge yesterday morning (unfed for 24 hours), and brought it out to feed in the evening, and left it out overnight.

The other half I fed, then left it outside and fed it again in the evening.

This morning I compared the two, and the one I left in the fridge is definitely more vigorous of the two. It is day 9, and I am so tempted to bake a small boule and see how it does.

 

frangipani's picture
frangipani

I baked my first loaf with my starter a couple of days ago. I think I left the BF for too long (total 5 hours with 3 s&f in between), and it got overfermented in this heat and spread, rather than rose. But, I did manage to get good crumb, and it was delicious! A local friend who bakes a lot of sourdough too told me that it's best to do overnight BF in the fridge and longer proofing in the basket at room temp, so next time I'll try that.

I also need to get my ancient toaster oven to give consistently high temperatures, because at 75% hydration this was a bit underdone in the centre after 30 minutes covered in dutch oven and 20 uncovered. Next loaf I will bake on a granite stone I setup in the toaster oven

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)

frangipani's picture
frangipani

If I may - when I began this starter, I was feeding it half-allpurpose, and half-wholewheat flour. I ran out of white flour after making my loaf, and fed the starter only wholewheat after that. Still 50gms flour and 50 ml water, but all wholewheat. It's decidedly stiffer now, with fewer bubbles and less of a rise. Since wholewheat absorbs more water should I increase the water a bit to increase the fermentation? 

Anne Ng's picture
Anne Ng

If you don't want the fermentation to go faster, you can just leave it as it is. Whole wheat usually brings the activity up pretty nicely. So don't worry about not getting a very active starter. 

In a tropical climate usually the problem is that it matures too quickly and run out of food way before the next feed. So thickening up the starter a bit is a good way to keep its fermentation slower and fit better to your schedule.

In summer I usually thicken my starter which is fed mostly white flour with a pinch of whole wheat to about 80% hydration, so that I can leave it at an non-AC area overnight and wake up to a just matured starter. 

Anne Ng's picture
Anne Ng

Oh, and another thing, Mini Oven also mentioned bringing up the feeding ratio to 1:5:5. Usually in summer where my night time room temp is at about 27C, I feed it straight out of the fridge 1:4:3.5, which gives me a nice 12hr cycle. Just to give you a reference :)

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

I am in the tropics too. I did my starter with wholewheat flour. Feed once a day for 3 or 4 days. Never discarded anything. Then it went to the fridge and into usage. 

In the beginning I added a bit of yeast to the bread (of course not the starter). Only thing I changed since then, at one point after a few weeks I change from wholewheat flour to rye. So now my starter is 100% rye, but my bread is wholewheat.

Once feeding every 2 weeks is totally enough for me. 

 

 

frangipani's picture
frangipani

Thanks, I am going to try and bake a little with it today, I think!