The Fresh Loaf

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Kneading for 2+ hours can't be normal... can it?

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Kneading for 2+ hours can't be normal... can it?

Hi there everyone~

I've been a lurker on this site since my starter's been on day two, reading what's on the forum and learning from other folk's experiences.

Now, I'm here because I got stuck too.

So at day 8 my starter was bubbly and happy and looked ready to use. I couldn't tell for sure, but you've got to use it to know for sure, right? I mix my ingredients and start kneading happily... except not really, cause I'm confident I've been kneading for more than two hours and my dough just wouldn't hold itself into a ball and never got close to showing the windows pane effect... I told myself, 'Maybe I'm just not physically strong enough to finish this quickly', 'be a bit more patient' and other stuff. I suspect me washing my hands after kneading for an hour or so to relieve it from the BURNING acid made it worst. I got sick, put the dough in a bowl, used a handmixer... not much improvments. decided to throw a bit more flour, not much difference. Then mum said she can't sleep well from all the noise in the kitchen. Proceeded to hand knead... only, my dough even got LESS strong and MORE wet... what?

After 2+ hours I got sick and threw the monster in a bowl to let it prove... Let's see how that turns out.

I mean, I'm pretty confident my first loaf of bread failed even before hitting the oven, but I'm so bamboozled at my strange kneading experience that I honestly don't even care how it'll turn out in the end. What WAS that? My dough got silky and smooth. I could see the gluten fibers, but they NEVER got strong enough.

I wanted to get in and make something that would be ready by breakfast so I quickly threw in 2 cups flour, a cup and a half of water, tablespoon of salt and my starter in.

Maybe I've put in too much water? I've been thinking that since the situation got worst after I washed my hands a bit (they were burning and turned a bright bright pink so I'm not sure if I could've held it in)... or maybe I'm just too much of a sissy and need to put in more muscle (my upper arms are definitely tired). Or maybe I'm not used to cup measuements (we're metric folks but I don't have a kitchen scale so I've decided to improvise)

msneuropil's picture
msneuropil

 Not sure exactly what the problem is...BUT wanted to comment fast so you won't chuck it!  PLEASE...let nature take it's course!  Your working way way way too hard.  Don't give up.  IF this is your first loaf...well why are you trying sourdough??  IF you do have some other bread baking experience...then good...you know what a risen dough is suppose to look like.  

I will let the experts help you out...but from this old lady's experience of 50 years of baking...take a deep breath.  Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and let it sit.  If it is bedtime...put it in the frig.  I am sure 2 hrs of hands on kneading you heated up that dough a bit for sure.  See what it looks like in the morning.  You might be surprised.  

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Thank you for the reply~ I left it to rise and I'm checking it every half an hour or so from the side of the bowl. I'm not going to throw food away that easily! Please don't worry!

I've baked pizza before so I do understand the process a bit and how risen dough is supposed to look like. As for why sourdough, that's a funny story of me going science geeky then discovering my body acts funny when I eat bread and me deciding keeping a sourdough starter without using it is a waste of food (flour is food after all).

Please don't worry! And thank you for the reply!

msneuropil's picture
msneuropil

There is little way folks can tell you if you over hydrated...added too much flour...or too much starter without a recipe.  What I got from the post is that you dumped some flour  (what kinds??) in a bowl,  added water...added sourdough...and that's it.  LOL!

I'm telling you what I would tell my granddaughter or son if they called me up and said what you described.   

My GD name is Hailey and she was kneading dough standing on a chair in diapers...so a call for help isn't out of my experience...LOL!

Silky looking dough...good description...but I'm confused by the rest honey.

OKAY ..did you add salt??  OK...  How about you cover the dough...making sure the bowl has room for dough to rise.  Let it sit on the counter a few hours or put it in the frig.  IF you want to know if it is working...then a couple of hours later...you should see something starting to work (if no commercial  yeast added)...and if in frig...pull it out in the morning and call me.  LOL!

IF you let the dough sit a short while after a brief mix...you may not need the full amount of flour a recipe indicates.  Time allows for absorption of the water.  Even 10 mins rest is better than just adding willy nilly more flour or water.  

How you measure your flour greatly affects outcome.  Without a scale...fluffy up flour (I use a wisk when teaching folks how to bake)...spoon lightly into cup...then level off...UNLESS a cookbook tells you specifically to dip and sweep.  

Dough that has fully absorbed flour...will knead easier and you will need less bench flour .  

Some people oil their worktop...and hands rather than adding a lot of bench flour and it can protect your hands from the acid...but...

for my granddaughter and son...I'd say...next time...call Nana and I'll give you a good recipe to try...but here we are...lets see what develops.  Worse thing that can happen is you get a brick and if edible you can say it is suppose to be like that.  LOL!  IF not edible...then feed it to the chickens. 

Sourdough is hard to time for an overnight early morning bake unless you have some experience. 

Lessen your stress...pick a simple recipe with less time issues.  

You can use all sorts of techniques to allow you to have hot bread in the morning...you just need a few successes first...then you can add to that skill set.  I commonly make up dough at night, shape and bake off in the morning...straight out of the refrigerator...but sourdough is finicky and it might be ready when you aren't...or past ready when you are. 

 

 

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Ok, so silky and it got whiter as i kneaded and more strands of glutin would appear. They would look like small string attached. Sometimes they got larger but by the tie i stopped they were like small spiderwebs.

Yes, I did add salt. I actually checked the dough in the bowl just recently and it's rising! It still looks early though so I'm thinking if leaving it for an extra hour and a half then check again... maybe an hour and check again. It's actually already morning now so my morning bread plan failed, lol.

I used wheat flour... it looked kind of like rye when I just started kneading though so now I wonder about the label.

Aaaah, thanks for the measuring tip! I usually use a spoon to add to the cup to measure but never thp7ght of fluffying it up!

 

Thank you for your help!

mikedilger's picture
mikedilger

...following a recipe for the ingredients.  One of the most basic ones is:

100g starter (1/3 cup? this part doesn't need to be exact)

325g water  (slightly more than a cup)

500g flour  (4 cups)

10g salt  (1 1/2 teaspoons)

From what you wrote it sounds like you used half the flour and double the salt.  It must have been WAY too wet.

Mix it in a bowl with a big spoon until it is uniform (no dry parts, no wet parts).  Just a few minutes.  A big shaggy mess.

Then let it rest/ferment in the bowl, covered with a wet tea towel or plastic wrap so that it doesn't dry out, and leave it alone for a long time, at least 4 hours, probably closer to 8 or 10 hours.  Check on it now and then.  If it doesn't eventually swell up, your starter is not working.

Skip the kneading.  That's right, skip it.  Not worth your time in a sourdough - waiting has the same effect with none of the work.  And if you are starting out, you don't even need to shape the bread (although it is better if you do).  I've seen a French bakery instructor do exactly that.. no kneading, no folding, no shaping, just a big lump into the oven and it came out surprisingly good.

Once it swells up, carefully get it into the oven and bake it.  Voila!

 

someonearound's picture
someonearound

I checked it recently and it's rising so thank God for that. Kneading and shaping and mixing are one thing but if my starter doesn't work that would be a disaster so I'm glad fr that!

msneuropil's picture
msneuropil

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/59628/sf-sourdough-giraudos-recipe

Thanks Mike...I was in process of posting the one on your blog that inspired me.  I've made it 4 times...and it is a wonderful dough for new bakers of sourdough.  

OldLoaf's picture
OldLoaf

and it looks like your bread is 148% hydration!!!  Salt is at about 7%, very high!  Breads typically range from 50% to 85% hydration (even higher for the brave bakers), and normally around 2% salt.

I converted what you wrote for U.S. cups/tablespoons to grams

  • 2 cups flour = 240g
  • 1.5 cups water = 356g
  • 1 Tbs table salt = 17g
  • you didn't mention how much starter, but that contains more flour and water also

If you live in the UK or Australia, those numbers will be different.  I suggest getting a digital scale if you can.  

EDIT: I see mike got his post in right before mine.  good work...

 

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Shoot... I need to get that scale as fast as possible... I think metric folks should just stay metric...

OldLoaf's picture
OldLoaf

until I started baking regulary many years ago.  I would be lost without my scale!!! ?

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Lost is the best way to describe it!

msneuropil's picture
msneuropil

I didn't have a scale at home till maybe  35+ years into my bread baking.  That said...I did use scales at work baking as it was essential...but I had a "thrifty" hubby that didn't see that my "tools" were tools. Scales...were toys in his opinion.   He even thought a toaster was a luxury...LOL.  I only got a thermometer cause he wanted me to make cheese too.  That cheese thermometer got used for testing bread.

SOOOO you can bake just fine without scales if you know the basics of how to measure per your recipe and/or what the dough is suppose to look like.

David R's picture
David R

The problem is, as you already said, "... if you know the basics of how to measure per your recipe ...".

Which essentially means "You won't need help, as long as you don't need help". ?

It seems to me that there was a time when everyone who baked learned it hands-on, either from their parents or at work, and essentially no one else cared to learn anyway. And I think there's a new "generation" (loosely, because it also includes older people like me) who learn just about everything they know about baking from online sources. I think that tends to make items like a scale more important for that group.

someonearound's picture
someonearound

I think most folks learnt most stuff from their parents or family because there was a time you had to do it; knitting, cooking, sewing, sustaining a marriage and raising kids (There was a time where people learnt that from their parents mostly I believe). I wonder what happened... Regardless, thank God for the internet!

David R's picture
David R

Metric vs old-style doesn't really matter, as long as the scale measures small enough units. Grams are certainly more convenient and user-friendly in my mind than fractions of an ounce, because grams are small and everything in metric is ×10 (not ×12 or ×16 or whatever) - but whichever system you're used to or comfortable with or happened to have around, will do the job. Certainly for anyone who is shopping and is unsure what to buy, metric is the answer for sure. But anyone who's "set in their ways" with ounces and pounds, or who bought a fancy expensive scale already, should continue. Most people these days who have a nice scale in their kitchen also have a smart phone, and therefore have (or can easily download) a calculator that makes converting just the press of a couple of buttons.

That said, if you feel hampered and can afford to change, then why not.

someonearound's picture
someonearound

But I didn't have a scale so I tried dealing with the situation somehow, and the mistake was to switch to a system I'm not used to. I used cups in a few recipes that used cups before, but that wasn't enough to get me anywhere close to getting ysed to the system. I'll save up for a scale and stick to metric in the end. You know yourself best I guess :/

sasha.river's picture
sasha.river

If you think the dough has too much water, you can add more flour. Also, I agree to let it sit in the refrigerator.

David R's picture
David R

As a more or less perpetual newbie, I can assure you that it always needs more flour! ? (Until you find out that even though that stiff satisfying rubbery texture feels good to knead and is more convenient to throw around, it doesn't necessarily make the best bread. ?)

someonearound's picture
someonearound

It always need more flour! I used that philosophy with my starter and THAT'S when my starter turned out right!

suave's picture
suave

Forget windowpane, just forget it.  Unless you are making an enriched dough you don't need it.

someonearound's picture
someonearound

I thought it would work best for me to use it because as a beginner I might still not get a hang on how a ready dough would feel in my hand. I thought using the test coyld be a good crutch till I get the feel of it.

suave's picture
suave

The notion of windowpane was borrowed from commercial bakers who need to knead the living daylight out of their dough to a) make the breads light and fluffy, and b) compensate for very short fermentation times.  In reality, gluten needs to achieve full development by bake time, and 5-6 hours of combined bulk + proof do it just fine.  So, when you knead, watch for the dough to become alive.  When it becomes elastic and starts feeling like a healthy muscle, you are there.

There is however another fallacy, this one propagated by some "artisan" bakers, that pouring more water into your dough makes for better bread.  It does not.  Many flours are perfectly fine with 60% hydrations, particularly if you reside in the Old World.  Even here one of our most respected books hovers around 65%, topping out at 73% with ciabatta.

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Aaaah, I can understand it that way. It makes more sense now. Then I guess knowing when the dough got there is a matter of experience if I'm correct, since it's a matter of feeling the dough's strength and texture. I guess there's no choice but to continue doing it then.

Isand66's picture
Isand66

You can certainly bake bread without a scale, but it really helps especially when you are first learning.  If you want to scale your bread up or down you need to know how much it weights as well.  One big piece of advise I can give you is don't add the water/liquid until you mix all of your flour together.  Add your liquid until you get the right consistency.  Flour is not created equal and depending on the variety you use as well as the ambient conditions in your kitchen it will absorb liquid differently.  I can make a freshly ground whole wheat flour bread with a much higher hydration compared to using commercial bread flour or AP flour.  I usually hold back some of the water from my first mix and let the dough sit for 20-60 minutes (for whole grains) before adding the remainder and hold back as necessary.

You don't need a windowpane either unless it's a specific type of bread that requires it.  I do stretch and folds, around 3-5 sets in a bucket or counter and then bulk ferment in the refrigerator overnight.  I give more detailed instructions in most of my posts, so feel free to check them out.

Good luck.

Ian

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Thank you for the tip! I guess that's the safest approach.

msneuropil's picture
msneuropil

Suspense....did anything turn out?

 

someonearound's picture
someonearound

A very strange not so good looking lump came out of the oven (It had a nice crust though...). My brother described its look as dog poop, BUT I really really really like how it tastes and most importantly for my sourdough experiment, my body didn't get inflamed! It's too sour to eat a lot in one portion so even though I liked how it turned out I have to eat a little bit at a time. I think I've left it to ferment for too long, oops...

 

The result is making me very eager to try again and get it right but my arm was rendered unusable the whole morning and despite improvements, I can't use it for kneading anytime soon so I'll have to wait a few days and keep my beast of a starter calm somehow till then. In the meantime, I'll eat away at my exciting tasting lump of bread.

(Is it ok to store my starter in the fridge with cheese in it?)

msneuropil's picture
msneuropil

It is absolutely ok to store starter in fridge...assuming you aren't adding cheese to the starter...LOL!  I hope you meant... can you store in same frig as the one you store cheese in.  I think I get what you meant...I just store my ESTABLISHED sourdoughs in crock with a lid or jars with a lid not too tightly screwed on.  I use clean spoons to stir and just use a clean technique when dipping in for starter.  I put my starter in frig on the upswing in the rise cycle after a weekly feed.   

As far as helping with the digestion problems...I think your on the right track.  I too can not tolerate high yeast products (at least not hot and fresh)...but found that sourdough...or even a levain build using a seed of sourdough does not bother my stomach.  Even using a long stored bulk fermented dough with commercial yeast (as in my pastry doughs) is better tolerated in my case.

Try that recipe Mike posted.  The fact you did not feed your sourdough recently before using might be an issue if you continue to have problems.  IF your using overly ripe sourdough...that isn't real active...you can have the problems you were having...though overhydration and overworked dough seemed more likely. 

Try using the sourdough on it's rise after a feeding. Oft times when I do that just in time...I get much faster rise times...so I depend on final proof in the frig so I don't have to stress with over-fermentation.  I like SLOW food.  

 

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Yeah, I meant there's cheese on the fridge, lol. Sorry for any confusion.

Actually, I think my starter was ready... I think... It was a thick one so as it rose it formed this dome. I wasn't sure if it reached its peak so what I did is that I kept watching it and once the dome started to flatten I took it and started baking.

someonearound's picture
someonearound

Yeah, I meant there's cheese on the fridge, lol. Sorry for any confusion.

Actually, I think my starter was ready... I think... It was a thick one so as it rose it formed this dome. I wasn't sure if it reached its peak so what I did is that I kept watching it and once the dome started to flatten I took it and started baking.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just in case you want to tackle American cups again, in reading or doing...there are some rough basics to know:

One cup of stirred, spooned in and knife leveled flour is about 120g.

With every cup of flour 1/2 level teaspoon salt.  (roughly 2%).  

One cup of flour is about equal in weight to 1/2 cup of water....  

When 1 cup flour is mixed with 1/2 cup water it makes 100% hydration...good for feeding a starter but too much water for dough.  

The driest workable dough with white AP wheat will be 1 cup flour to 1/4 cup water or 50% hydration.    Or the reverse: roughly for every 1/4 cup water you will need max. 1 cup of flour.  Add one tablespoon (15g) of water at a time to increase if needed to moisten flour.    

So, looking back over the beginning posted recipe... 1 1/2 cups of water would need a maximum of 6 cups of flour and most likely 4.5 to 5 cups of flour to make a nice workable dough.  

Three to four cups of flour is an average sized loaf.   What country? 

someonearound's picture
someonearound

North Africa but currently residing in Middle East.

 

Thank you so much for the details!