The Fresh Loaf

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yeast water questions

iwonder's picture
iwonder

yeast water questions

Aloha, I am the newest of neophytes.  I have enjoyed and appreciated the wealth of information I've found on this site the past couple of months, but this is my first post.  I have an apple yeast water maturing in the fridge.  This week I started 4 new YW's: a fresh blueberry, fresh blackberry, dried fig and dried apricot, following dabrownman's protocol.  We're on day 5 and there's been good activity in all the bottles.  I think the first couple of days must've been LAB activity in some, but now getting an alcohol smell, so pretty sure it's yeast.

For the past couple of days I've had this growing layer of 'seafoam' at the top of the fig water.  At first I thought it was just CO2 bubbles mixing with fig guts, but now I'm concerned it may be something else.  Could I be nurturing some nasty mold here?

Yikes!  I just loaded the picture and it's huge and not where I had intended to place it in the text.

I am having some issues with the fresh blackberry water too--some floaty white blobs.  I guess I'll make another post to show that picture.

I get that dried fruit already has a large population of mold on its skin--is that what's getting out of control here?  FWIW, the dried apricot water looks fine.

(Also, could someone tell me how to control the gigantor nature of the uploaded pictures?)

 

 

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Should be all yeast. Secondly, you say maturing in the fridge. Do you mean they're fully fledged YW and you're now storing them in the fridge?

Photos will also be very helpful in diagnosing mould. What you can do is try the yeast water. If it behaves and leavens dough then it's not mould. 

Take some bread flour, add enough yeast water to make a dough ball, knead for a few minutes then place in a jar. If it's grows like a yeasted dough then it's fine. If not... then something's not right.

Edit... Updated the same time as I posted. That looks fine to me. 

iwonder's picture
iwonder

Hi Abe,

Yes, the AYW in the fridge is just a few weeks old.

Re the new fig yeast water:  I don't doubt I'm growing yeast in the jar, but I'm concerned that the flotsam in the bottle is mold rather than yeast.  It's just looks weird--I'd kind of like to have a handle on what it is.

Thanks!  

iwonder's picture
iwonder

Hi Abe,

Yes, the AYW in the fridge is just a few weeks old.

Re the new fig yeast water:  I don't doubt I'm growing yeast in the jar, but I'm concerned that the flotsam in the bottle is mold rather than yeast.  It's just looks weird--I'd kind of like to have a handle on what it is.

Thanks!  

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

They're floating on top of the water and the water is fizzing. That and the soft figs is creating a foam. The only way to really tell is if it performs ok in a starter build. 

iwonder's picture
iwonder

That's what it seemed to me at first.  It started as a thin layer and continues to grow.  Maybe the little yeasties are building condos?

Thanks again, Abe--nothing left to do now but proof and try it in a loaf.  :-)

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I agree, time to bake :)

If you have Hamelman's book "bread" then I really recommend the Swiss Farmhouse Bread. 

joc1954's picture
joc1954

I thought the same as you that in YW there is only yeast. However, there are also LAB as they are present everywhere. They are in minority as the food is not favorable for LAB - the sugar in various forms. LAB would prefer starch as this is the case in sourdough culture where we feed them with flour which is very poor on sugars but has a lot of starch.

Happy baking Abe!

Joze   

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I stand corrected. I just thought that because a YW lacks the sour/tang component of a sourdough starter that it lacked any lab. But thinking logically about it (and I did think this at first but couldn't explain the lack of lactic acid in YW breads) there would be bacteria everywhere. 

joc1954's picture
joc1954

Actually bread leavened with YW doosn't have a typical tang as the LAB fermentation is not so intensive that we woul be able to feel the tang. Some time ago I found on the Internet information how much acidity must be in the bread that we are able to taste it as sour taste. The easiest way to prove/disprove it would be to measure the pH of the dough. With bakers yeast the pH goes down to below 6 while in sourdough it goes down to below 4 (approx. 3.8). But if you feed the YW preferment (kind of a poolish) two or three times with flour you will get a lot of acidity in the prefermnet and also the bread will get more acid. At least this is my experience.

Happy baking,

Joze 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

10 to 1 up to 1000 to 1 for yeast depending .  But i YW they are severely restricted due to no foro for them to eat like you say and the yeast vastly outnumber LAB and why there is no sour component.  We should have a Fresh Lofian challenge where we use YW to start a SD culture using flour and see how long it takes to get established as a SD starter .  The last time I did it, it took about 10 days or so rather than the usual 7-8 if not using rye which takes about 5 - 6 using YW and rye flour instead of the usual 3-4.

Happy baking 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

when first started it.  It isn't mold.  There are a lot of fig and not much water so it is thicker than the other ones and it really holds on to the CO2 being produced,  The next time you have to feed it use less figs and more water.  Fig water is my favorite replacing the apple and raisin old favorites. 

iwonder's picture
iwonder

good to know you've seen this before.  I skimmed off a lot of the flotilla and looked at it closely--bubbles and fig debris.  I love this forum!  Thanks guys.  

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Okay, you guys have inspired me again. About a year ago I made two yeast waters - one apple and one plum (fruit from my trees). I regularly use and maintain the apple YW, but basically forgot (okay, ignored) the plum one. I just took it out of the fridge and it smells fine with no visible signs of mold or anything like (after a year!). I scooped out the seriously depleted plums and replaced them with a handful of freshly picked blackberries (from alongside my driveway). And also thanks for the note about Hamelman's YW recipe. I looked it up and will try it!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Once the blackberries "pop" they have this spongy middle that seems to want to float.  See if that is what's floating in the yeast water. 

joc1954's picture
joc1954

I was wandering for a long time if there is any possibility to see if the YW is active enough to leaven the dough. Actually the only option you have is to mix s preferment (starter, or name it poolish if you want) 1:1 ratio YW:flour. I usually start with 50g of YW and 50g of flour (usually white, more bran will speedup the process). Wait until it doubles and then repeat the same step and wait until it doubles again.

So it may take from 2 to 24 hours to double in the first step. But when it doubles the next step is much faster and you are sure that this preferment is strong enough to leaven the dough.

So when the YW is mature enough to start with this test? I was convinced for a long time that it muste be very active and be fizzing like champagne. However, I found later that some YW are not showing a very big activity and they are already ready to start preparing the preferment. Usually I use a bit strange approach for pretesting the activity. When I start YW I usually add honey or brown sugar - 10% of the weight of the water. So after first shake I taste the water and try to remember how sweet it was. After few days when it starts fizzing I taste it again. If it is not sweet or it has lost most of the sweetness I know that this is due to the fermentation and there is a lot of yeast alredy present in the YW so it is likely ready to prepare preferment.

To prevent molding I shake it many times per day. So fart I had problem only with one YW from cherry tomatoes and rosemary. 

Happy baking!

Joze 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

for the only levain. Just sub a couple 100g of YW for the water in the formula and you are good to go. The YW doesn't know that you didn't mix it separately with flour , it just goes to work during the fermenting period. Works great !  I also regularly make a SD levain and also sub YW for some of the water and also I make a SD levain and a YW /flour levain and make double levain breads. I have also added some of my NMNF stash to YW and let it bubble up. As far as I can tell it all works. Have fun !  

My YW rarely looks fizzy after the initial feeding as Joze says it isn't indicative in any way of its ability to rise bread. The only one that really held on to the fizz for days and days was bananas. Someone said that there was a problem using bananas in distant TFL posts but there isn't. I made TX Farmer's Rye banana bread and it was wonderful !!!  I need to make it again . 

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I've been very curious about the LAB content of YW bread. I've heard that YW bread is not very sour which makes me wonder if the strains of LAB being produced with this method don't metabolize wheat?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

In YW they have nothing to metabolize so there are few LAB and no sour YW simply replaces commercial yeast with a natural one

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and our fig tree in the garden is starting to produce a lot of figs so I might give this a go! Kat

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

from yeast water because the flavours are diluted with the flour in the dough.  

But you can easily get

  • more yeast, more rise
  • a softer crumb along with
  • crumb coloring or darkening.
joc1954's picture
joc1954

I know for lavender and sage yeast water that the flavor comes through, the rest of yeast waters don't add some noticeable taste to the bread. When I was baking wit tomato & basil YW I was able to smell the YW in the dough as well.  Sage is an exception as it has really strong flavor so although diluted you can smell and taste it.

Happy baking!

Joze

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

That yeast water breads do have a unique smell at the dough and baking stage. It definitely has a more cakey aroma. The crumb is not as open but still lighter than usual yeasted or sourdough breads.

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

What happens when you combine sourdough starter w/ yeast water? Best of both worlds or something that doesn't work?

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I make an overnight poolish with equal weight YW and flour plus a SD levain.

here is a recent one (just a basic white)

fairly high hydration but a feather light loaf.

Leslie

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

beautiful crumb! I want to try that method out.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

as I noted above and leslie noted below you can do a YW levain with just YW and flour. You can do a double levain as she does and I have done...one with YW and one with SD. You can also do a YW/SD levain where you add your YW to your SD NMNF storage . You can also just add YW in place of the water to your formula. There are many many examples in the archives of TFL....some are easier than others to find due to the difficult search on this site but they are there. Anything you do with YW ...remember:

1) you must use much warmer temps than with SD....85-90F

2) each of the fruits and vegs and herbs will act slightly differently so " watch the dough" becomes more important

3) there will be almost NO sour with YW

4) bread will stay fresh days longer than with SD

you can keep you YW going for years as I have...6 yrs and counting. Use a spoonful of your original to start a new flavor...takes only hours to get a new one going...just like with SD

you can store it with or without fruit...it all works. I have done both

it doesn't need to FOAM....that isn't an indicator of yeast activity. Only thing you need to see is your YW/flour test gets bubbles after a couple hours at a 90 degree temp. if it does it is good to go

I think that is all but if I think of other Tried and True rules I will post just to help. My AYW/flour levain  tripled in a couple hours and will be used tomorrow. pics to follow, c

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

This is fascinating. I'll have to copy these into my notes. I like the realms of experimentation this opens up. I'm particularly intrigued with the different flavour and texture combinations that can come out of doing a hybrid SD/YW.

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I just experimented with some YW. This one was made with fresh local raspberries. 

It was a very proofy dough, as I left it sitting out too long as I wasn't able to nurse it all day. I tried to shape it which didn't quite work so left it in my banneton until I got bored and then ended up plopping it into a dutch oven to see what would happen. It turned into a very cakey, voluminous loaf. I was surprised at how much oven spring it got considering it was just a proofy lump to start.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Over proofing is so easy with YW as it moves fast ! You are much better underestimating the timing than letting it go too long. You can do a 1-2-3 and not do any s and f and only mix it ALL together and then place in the fridge. watch it and take it out and shape it cold. Let it proof slightly and then into the 500 degrees for 10-15 min then lid off and finish it. You are better served with " less is more " with YW. Good Luck and post more of your experiments/ c

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

Noted. Thank you! I'll try that for the next one. I went a bit overboard and have about 5 jars full of different things fermenting, so lots to experiment with!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

agree with all trailrunner is saying.  My YW is raspberry and is occasionally fed raisins now during our winter. if I can I add a few frozen raspberries once they have defrosted.  The temperature is important, warmth is very important and as I don’t have a proofer, I keep it around 80°F during proof and also give the poolish a bit of a rev up if it is tardy cause night time temps are too low. 

its fun! I also add a little fresh orange peel and it helps keep the culture fresh - thanks trailrunner for this great tip.

Good luck with your wxperimentation.

Leslie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

even if over proofed a bit.  It looks like that one has some whole grains in it too.  That is why I put YW levain in heavy whole grain SD or rye breads because it has a way of opening up the crumb and making the bread lighter.   The only downside when having both SD and YW (I recommend separate levains)  is that the SD taste is muted by the YW for some reason.  If it didn't mute the SD flavor I would make combo SD /SYW levains for every bread I make:-)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I was wondering about that, Dab. Do you think the SD flavor is muted because the YW & SD combination ferments the bread too quickly?

I am making my 2 first YW now.

Dan

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I'm curious about this as well. Would cold-proofing allow the LAB to flourish and slow down the YW?I'd love to have the science broken down. I think talking to a brewer would be helpful here. As far as I can tell, creating a YW is like creating a weak fruit cider no?
I just did some quick reading, and cider's malic acids convert to lactic acids. Maybe because YW is a young ferment it largely still contains malic acid?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and I usually cut the levains pre-fermented flour total in a bread in half 5% pre-fermented flour for each levain instead of 10% for SD.  What happens is that the yeast water is all yeast and it overpowers the LAB.   At room temperature the LAB is reproducing at 6-7% faster than the LAB but there are way more LAB, number wise,  in a SD culture than yeast.  So the YW is all yeast and tilts the LAB to Yeast ratio way in the yeasts favor.  The bread might proof a but faster as well due to more yeast in the total preferment.  There are three easy ways to compensate - Use the YW as part of the liquid in the dough rather than making a preferment with it and still make SD levain at 10% pre-fermented flour.   This will give the LAB a head start and should make the resulting bread a bit more sour.

The other way to compensate is with temperature.  Make 2 levains but do the counter work at 90 F.  This will restrict the yeast and put the LAB into high gear.  You could also raise the temperature in the first way too.

You could also make the SD levain bigger than the YW one too or a combo of all 3 ways.  

Happy baking 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I followed up on the inspiration from this post, rejuvenated my old plum yeast water and baked some lovely bread today! Here is the blog post...

Thanks! :)

Wendy

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I haven't sliced into it yet, but here's a SD levain/YW hybrid I improvised using sour cherry yeast water. I cold-proofed it over night. It landed at a wonky angle in my dutch oven when I turned it out from the banneton but still seems to have had a gigantic oven spring.

 

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

So, the crumb on this one turned out much better than I thought it would given my beginner skills. It's very soft and creamy with a really lovely hint of sour cherry.

 

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

Another Yeast Water question -

I tried adding diastatic malt to some of my experiments and it seems to have killed off the fermentation process entirely. I had three experiments going and added malt to two of them and those two abruptly stopped.

Anyone know why this might be? I though the diastatic malt might be food for the yeast in addition to the coconut sugar I added.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Looks great. We're you happy with the taste and crumb?

How do you know it's killed the yeast water?

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

Thank you! The only thing I noticed with that bread is it seemed to be not as crusty as a pure SD loaf. The crumb was exceptionally soft and tasty but the crust was a bit too soft for my liking. I've heard others says they were unable to discern the flavour of YW in their loaves, but for I think possibly the combination of sour cherry with a SD levain really accentuated the tartness and aroma of the cherry. Overall, it was delicious but maybe a bit too cakey for sliceable sandwich bread.

For the YW experiments: I had some fizzing at the top and some bubbling reminiscent of light carbonation. After I shook up the YW I'd also hear a lot of carbonated fizzing. After I added the diastatic malt all that stopped entirely. I've left it a few days to see what would happen and it seems to have halted - no fermentation at all anymore.

The other experiment still had quite a froth on top and was able to leaven bread.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

A cakey crumb and a sweeter flavour. Toasts up so well and it accentuates the enriched bread like characteristics.

Is the fruit still floating and have you tried to make a starter from it?

Yeast water won't continuously fizz like when first activated. Do you keep it in the fridge? If not then how do you maintain it?

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I keep my successful YWs in the fridge. The other experiments I leave out until they start to exhibit signs of active fermentation.I maintain them by opening the jar once or twice a day and giving them a good shake in the morning and evening to prevent molding.

This current batch of experiments are made without using fruits - harvesting the yeasts from herbs and flowers, and using coconut sugar to feed them. The one without diastatic malt is still frothing and fermenting. The others went from frothing to completely flat. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Only thing for it...

  • 100g flour
  • 60g yeast water

Knead into a dough ball and see what happens.  While this experiment is going on store the yw in the fridge.  

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I'll give it a shot. I'm very skeptical though! I think something in the diastatic malt upset whatever delicate beginnings of fermentation I had going.

(this is the diastatic malt I've been using, btw. It's the only affordable one I was able to find that would ship to Canada)

https://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Diastatic-baking/dp/B008T9LX3C

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

In my YW except for fruit and water so I can't really advise other than to try the experiment. If it behaves then all is well. Nothing to lose. 

Can't imagine why it would have harmed anything though. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I can think of what might be happening.  (I'm not a microbiologist.)  My guess would be too much concentration of sugars.  Diastase is an enzyme, a digestive to help convert starches into sugars.  (It isn't food but helps yeast use starches.)

 The osmotic pressure in the solution might be too high for the yeast cells.  It would follow that if the concentration of sugar is too high, the yeast cell closes up cell walls while the sugar might be acting as a preservative instead.  In a similar way, wild yeast doesn't grow in natural honey, honey which also contains yeast and diastase.  Not until enough water is added to lower osmotic pressure letting yeast multiply without literally spilling their guts into the sugar/water solution.

more about yeast, maybe too much info:  

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X2005000800012

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

interesting. I'll need to set aside a minute for this one.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Malt is fermented wholegrain flour which is ever worse!  I agree with Mini!!  You are not making a SD levain with un-malted flour .  A bit of honey or sugar is all you might put in besides the fruit and water  Honey is basically a preservative with enough sugar in it to keep wee beasties from growing.    Added at 1% for YW they yeast love it.

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

noted. I think I'll switch to honey as I've noticed the honey YW I did last week was excellent.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I haven’t fed my YW with flour, but I have used YW to build a levain. So, for example; 30 starter + 30 YW + 30 flour. It grew like crazy. Is there something wrong with doing the above?

Dan

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

You can do the Starter/YW/flour as a combo levain or you can just do flour /YW or you can just do YW as part of your liquid for the formula. All three are perfectly acceptable. The only thing that would over time affect your starter or YW original " stash" is if you added the one to the other for permanent storage....you would end up with some sort of hybrid " don't know what " LOL !  

For a preservative you can just add a few pieces of citrus peel. I use orange usually in my YW but lately have switched to lemon. Works wonderfully and the YW stays fresh much much longer. 

Post your results ....looking forward to learning new things. c

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

https://youtu.be/Iv0gA8bLpRY

NOTE - each transition in the video is a 5 minute lapse and there is a split between the first and second build. The first build is a typical SD levain @ 1:1:1 and took 3 hours. The second build (same video) is 1:2:2. I supplemented 2/3 liquids with YW.

Dan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

You just don't want any flour in your mother YW

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

For the record: staghorn sumac can be turned into YW and produces a remarkable rise.

I kept seeing it on my bike rides during this YW kick and grabbed a few of the flowering parts and added the berries to water with coconut sugar.

I almost abandoned it and was ready to throw it out but opened it up yesterday and got a nice sharp, cidery tang and did an experiment. The yeast were very active.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

explosive bloom and spring.  You got that with this one for sure! Nice!  Happy baking

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I haven't had THAT kind of response LOL !!  Beautious loaf. What is the formula if you would be willing to share. And your timeline of the process. Thank you and wonderful bake !  c

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I should start with a caveat: this bread was not the most flavourful! It had decent structure, but the effect of the sumac wasn't what I hoped. I thought the citric, tangy flavour of the sumac might impart a bit of sourness to the bread to counter the lack of tartness in YW breads. It wasn't so! More of a slight bitterness if anything. I'm working on a second sumac/crab apple YW to see what that does. 

The formula was pretty simple - but mostly improvised. I'll try and write out my process from memory. I've not been using strict formulas lately, trying to get comfortable with the feel of fermentation over strict formulas. 

For the YW, I gathered about the amount of sumac you see in the picture and then a sprinkling of coconut sugar (I just eyeball this part, probably should be more scientific in the future). It took roughly a week and a half, closer to two weeks to get a flourishing yeast. 

The bread: I did two builds before I mixed it for bulk fermentation. 

The first build was before bed: around 100g of YW to 100g of Caputo "Antimo Caputo" to use it up since I had some lying around. I was skeptical that anything would happen. 

I woke up and it was furiously bubbling. So the second build was in the morning: doubling the first build. 

By the afternoon it was quickly rising, so I added around 350g or so of the Caputo, and about 150g of Arva hard whole wheat. I let it bulk ferment for around an hour or so and then added the salt during a stretch and fold - again, I eyeballed it, aiming for a sprinkling in each stretch and fold. From recollection, I believe I did another stretch and fold an hour later. 

Within about 2 hours it was looking on the verge of overproofing so I shaped it and put it in a banneton. It rose to the edge of the banneton and then I baked it at 500 for 20 minutes w/ lid on, 450 w/ lid on for 10 minutes. Then 450 w/ lid off for 20 minutes. 

I hope that helps! I really need to start taking more precise notes. 

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

I forgot to add how much water! It was a fairly highly hydrated dough! What happened is that my scale automatically turned off when I had added the water for some reason so I lost the amount I was weighing. It had been almost 100% hydrated until I thickened it up with whole wheat to give it a less liquidy consistency. 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

That's what I love ....a person as precise as I am :) !  I add water and flour and stuff and hope for the best. I start out with such good intentions but then I feel the dough and it all goes to H%^& after that !  But most times it is wonderful bread. 

I don't know about sumac here in the Shenandoah Valley. I saw something on Native Plants so will check further. 

I have been unhappy with how acid my stored crumbly starter has been . Months ago I made it a " pie crust" dryness and stored it in the freezer. It is about 10 yrs old. It recovers very well but I hate the smell. I had fed it several times for recent bakes and had a few tsp left stored in the fridge. I added water and unbleached flour and left it over night. Low and behold it is back sweet smelling !  Yay. So I fed it once more and it was wonderful and tripled in 2 hrs !! In the fridge it goes and I will do something tomorrow to use most of it. But saving it and thinking of tossing all the " old " stuff in the freezer. 

It is so interesting to see how far we can stretch the possibilities of SD and YW....thank you for contributing. Keep posting your adventures !  c

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

Here's a yeast/sourdough combo I made.

The one thing I don't like about pure YW breads is that they don't get very crispy. Adding the SD levain seems to give them a crispier crust, but still with a cakey crumb. Very fun combo.

Here's one I did with fig & fig leaf YW.

fig & fig leaf YW/SD

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

what did you do as far as formula? Love the crumb and looks like it got a good rise. c

kwbaker's picture
kwbaker

oof - I wish I could remember. This was made about 2 weeks ago during my "winging it" phase. 

I think it was just a simple levain that I mixed into a 3rd build of YW. In terms of ratios - this is why I need to take notes!

What I have noticed however is that YW is very forgiving during the shaping, much more so than pure SD. The YW/SD combo gives you a bit of both worlds: tremendous rise from YW with minimal effort and really subpar shaping but with some depth of flavour the YW by itself lacks. 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Iknew you would say that about not writing it down. I love YW with the SD component added. You must do the banana YW bread I have posted with the figs or dates and pecans. It is truly the most amazing bread. I adapted Shiaopings formula. It uses a lot of rye  and tons of bananas. It tastes amazing. 

Thanks for posting. That is one pretty bread. c

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Then read what they have to say about bread made with yeast water.