The Fresh Loaf

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Help! Runaway bulk ferment!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Help! Runaway bulk ferment!

Hello my dear gurus, I need to pick your brains once again.

I put together a dough last night and stuck it in the fridge, hoping to bulk ferment until after work today, then preshape/bench rest/shape and back into the fridge until tomorrow morning. "Problem" is that it looked like it's already doubled in volume. I stuck it back in the fridge, moving to the coldest spot.

So the question is: will there be any point to carrying out the rest of my plan (baking tonight isn't really an option), or will I wind up with a brick? Mind you, given the experiments I've been conducting in the last couple of weeks, another brick isn't going to killl me. But is there a way to save this?

It looks like I need to learn how to trust my starter -- after 3 S&Fs I'd given the dough an hour before refrigerating, fearing that it wouldn't rise enough by the time I got home.

Thanks so much for all your generous guidance.

Carole

PS: if it matters, this is a dough with 50g of 100% starter, 460g flour, 30g Greek yogurt and about 240g water, plus 10g salt…

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

If a dough rises too much at the final proof then it can be knocked back, reshaped and final proofed again. As long as the it's not over fermented. There is a difference!

I'm finding it difficult to believe that your dough has over fermented when it's spent most of the time in the fridge. But you haven't given any details of the recipe. Just how warm is your fridge?

If I were you I'd give it a fold or two and put it back into the fridge. Lower down and towards the back. Here it will be coldest. When ready take it out, shape and final proof.

Oops: I was writing this as you edited the p.s. It should be fine. Does the dough have strength?

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Dear Abe (it is Abe,isn't it!),

Thank you for your reassurances. I don't think it's over fermented, I was careful, too, to stick it in the fridge between S&Fs, not because it's warml here, but because I knew that this was going to be a long haul. As to the fridge temp, I am embarrassed to confess that I have never checked. I suppose if I want to stick with baking bread, I should grow up and get a thermometer. I'd venture to guess that it's in the neighborhood of 4°C

When you ask me if the dough has strength, what (sorry!) do you mean?

And thanks for being there -- I was afraid that everyone would still be sleeping in US time zones!

-Carole

 

There's a typo: that breakdown should have read "about 260g of water" -- does that matter?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It is Abe :)

Well from the sound of things the dough has spent almost all the time in the fridge. Really doubt it has over fermented with around about 10% starter.

When a dough has over fermented the gluten will break down and you'll end up with, basically, a lot of starter. If the dough has structure then no worries. It hasn't over fermented. Give the dough some folds and because it's still got some time to go you can afford to de-gas a bit more.

I'm in London, UK.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I'm across the Channel…

Thanks again, I didn't mean to panic, but I'm still new at the game and I don't think I've had dough grow like that before with what started out as Trevor's 65% hydration loaf. Problem is, I'm still confused about flour equivalencies, so wing it from bake to bake. I also ran across a post about bassinage -- a term which I'd never encountered before -- which is basically adding the dough's water in stages, rather than dumping it in all at once. Sounded good to me, so I gave it a shot.

I was hoping to use your in-bowl preshape technique this time 'round, but because refrigerator real-estate is at a premium, the dough is now in a bowl with straighter sides than the one I would have used. Maybe over the weekend, with a relaxing little 1 2 3 loaf…

Thanks again for the hand-holding.

All the best,

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Works well for low gluten types of dough. Like the broa de milho (which is where I got the idea from in the first place) where a high percentage is cornflour. My technique does differ depending on the recipe. For the type of dough you're working on I think a bench shaping would be best.

Hope it works out.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

it's precisely because my bench shaping is SO lousy that I was hoping to give your bowl technique a whirl. Really, I feel like I'm all thumbs when it comes to handling.

Am I understanding correctly that if my preshape is a disaster, I can let it rest and try all over again?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

If I'm "trying" to handle a wet dough and the pre-shape goes a bit awry then doing two pre-shapes to get that tension will help.

BTW dough smells fear. Show it who's boss.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I spent the first three weeks with my starter being terrorized by it!

Must be making some progress, though: I noticed I wasn't leaving as much glop on the sides of my bowl during S&F.

hreik's picture
hreik

I use Trevor's 65% method all the time.  He terrific.  Maybe next time put the dough into the fridge right away instead of leaving it out for an hour.  Hope it all works out. 

Good luck and keep us posted.

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I will definitely keep that in mind; I did wonder whether or not I should just put it directly in the fridge -- now I know! As my starter is still relatively young, I haven't learned how strong it is and how far I can push it. Can't wait to get home and make sure that the dough hasn't taken over the refrigerator.

Stay tuned…

- Carole

hreik's picture
hreik

Well,  Abe is the best at starter advice and everything else too.  Anyway, I do a very long process. But I'm mostly retired, so I can do it this way.   I wake my starter and that evening, make the final build and also do Trevor's premix.  I refrigerate the premix and leave out the starter.  Next day I make the dough after letting the premix come to room temperature.  Then I do s & f over 6 hours.  Then bench rest, shape and back into fridge overnight.  Baking the next morning as soon as oven heats up enough.

GOOD LUCK

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

The Queen of the cow pat strikes again!

The shaped dough had risen overnight in the fridge, and didn't seem overproofed, although it was lacking tension -- I knew that from the way I (mis)handled it last night.

Heated oven and DO, turned the dough out of basket, supporting it with my hand, and it landed quite a bit off-center, which meant that part of the bottom was sitting on the side of the pot. Couldn't move it, so scored and popped it in the oven anyway.

And after 20 mins covered and 20 mins uncovered, this is what I got:

Feeling a bit frustrated. Trevor's 65% loaf was the first one I made with my new starter a few weeks ago, and it came out better than this one! But then again, I didn't retard twice; that might be too much. Or maybe it's just that I need to keep working at my handling/shaping technique.

Thanks for listening.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Type of flour and brand?

Perhaps a different recipe is needed. For now!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Abe, your question puts the finger on a very weak point. I use French flours, don't know if you're familiar with the T ratings here? Wheat flours range from T45 to T150, with T45 being the most refined and T150 being the most hard-core whole wheat; as the numbers increase, so do the percentages of protein and ash content. Some people consider T55 all-purpose; other use T65 for everything (I'm one of those). T80 is used primarily for bread and "heartier" pastries; there are two kinds of whole wheat: T110 and T150. Having read that the bran in whole wheat flour can cut gluten strands, rendering dough less manageable, I decided to steer clear of that one. 

Trevor's formula calls for 436g of bread flour and 24g of whole wheat flour. Twisted thinking, perhaps, but I made up a cocktail of 100g of T65, 300g of T80 and 60g of T110. All organic, the T80 and T110 are stone-ground.

Different recipe, most likely. On days that I feel like goofing off or testing a new flour or working on shaping, I make up a small 1 2 3 loaf with discarded starter, whatever flour comes to hand, salt and water, holding back a couple of grams that get added as the dough gets mixed. Even those come out better than this last effort. 

Sigh.

Sorry for the long dissertation on flour, but it would help explain why, in addition to the two long retards, I didn't stick to the original recipe.

Thanks for your time!

hreik's picture
hreik

give the basics of the timing? when you did what? and what kind of flour you used??

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

For the flours, see my long-winded answer to Abe.

For procedure:

  1. Mixed up starter, waited for it to peak and begin to recede
  2. In the last couple of hours of waiting for the starter, mixed the flours, 245g of water and autolyse for 1 hour
  3. Added starter and 30g Greek yogurt, mixed with dough and waited 30 mins
  4. Dissolved 10g NaCl in 25g water, mixed that into the dough (I even got that cool ball that Trevor gets at the end of mixing)
  5. 30 minutes later, first S&F, followed by 2 others at 45-minute intervals, let rest for 1 hour, then into the fridge overnight.

You know the rest of the story, that's where you jumped in with your help. So  the preshape and shape went badly, basket went into the fridge overnight and then "boule" went into the hot oven this morning.

That's it…

Tired of this yet?

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

All seems fine, it hadn't even overflowed the bowl. Two S&Fs and then I'll do a preshape/banch rest/shape after company leaves tonight. I would definitely like to compare notes with you on this 65% formula, but need to get back into the kitchen.

Do you go straight from bench rest to shape, without a pre-shape (can you tell I'm trying to touch my dough as little as possible? There are times I feel like Edward Scissorhands!)

The trick now is to not mix up my tahini sauce with my discarded starter (they're the same color…)

Have a good evening.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Night Before:

  • 10g starter
  • 50g water
  • 50g bread flour

Left to mature overnight. Use when active and peaked.

 

Day Of:

  • 500g bread flour (strongest French bread flour available)
  • 308g water
  • 10g salt
  • 100g mature starter

 

1: Autolyse the 308g water + 500g bread flour for 30 minutes

2: Sprinkle 10g salt over the autolysed dough followed by 100g mature starter then with a wet hand fold and squeeze the dough till fully incorporated. Rest for 20 minutes.

3: Give the dough a good old fashioned knead till full gluten formation. The dough should feel silky and smooth.

4: Cover and bulk ferment till the dough is billowy and there are visible signs of bubbles just beneath the surface.

5: Pre-shape and bench rest for 20 minutes.

6: Shape, creating a taut skin, and place into prepared banneton.

7: Either final proof at room temperature till ready or leave out for 30 minutes and refrigerate for atleast 8 hours.

8: bake in pre-heated oven.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Thank you. I shall give it a shot, when I've either finished this brick or found some poor soul to fob it off on.

And yes, the dough last night -- before my disastrous preshape -- felt really nice, probably the nicest since I've started trying to make bread. And then, ploof.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Hi Abe,

I mixed up the starter about 40 minutes ago, so the experiment is now underway. It's unseasonably (and really wonderfully) warm here; should I put the starter in the fridge and take it out a couple of hours before I start the autolyse?

The hydration level for your experiment is a bit worrisome to me, but if you say so…

Have a good night.

Best,

Carole

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

So that it matures in time to go into the dough. If you have built your starter at a time where it will peak before you start the dough then refrigerate the mature starter till ready to use. Take it out the fridge about 30 minutes before you start the autolyse so it's been an hour warming up before it goes into the dough. In this unseasonably warm weather it's ok to use colder water or mature starter that has been sitting in the fridge which hasn't quite warmed up as it'll probably work faster. As long as you're watching the dough and not the clock. I see no difference in waiting for the starter to warm up and then using or using the starter and waiting till it's done it's job properly within the dough.

The final hydration is 65%. I would say drop the final hydration to 60% and only add the extra water if it needs it but then it'll be difficult to autolyse without the starter. So if you're concerned then...

Drop the water to 280g and autolyse with the 100g starter. This will give you a 60% hydration dough. Keep an extra 28g of water to one side which may be added slowly, a bit at a time, when you add the salt if you think the dough needs it and you can handle it. But remember that the bulk ferment starts when the starter goes into the dough. So watch the dough and not the clock.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I just saw this. Starter went into the fridge this morning (it had bubbled up quite happily at room temperature overnight). It's now warming up and bubbling again, so will go into the autolysed dough in a couple of minutes.

I left the amount of water as you originally prescribed. I sat down and did the math, and I think 65% should be manageable. The saga continues.

Thanks again for your continued vigilance and support.

Have you got lovely sunshine, too? If so, enjoy it.

Carole

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Hi Abe,

I swear, I followed your instructions to a T and everything went swimmingly -- dough felt relly nice and silky during kneading with wet hands on a counter misted with water -- until the end of BF. The dough had swollen to close to 3X, but only very faint traces of bubbles under the surface.

I know I'm supposed to watch the dough and not the clock, but after five hours at about 24*C, I was  really worried about overproofing, so I decided to turn out the dough for preshape.

Well, it STUCK everywhere, and every time I touched it, it just seemed to get worse. So I let it just sit there in a puddle for about 20 minutes and took another stab at it, adding 'way more flour than I wanted to. Finally managed to scrape things together and dump it into a cloth-lined basket. Left it out for half an hour and then stuck it in the fridge. I checked it after a couple of hours, knowing full well that this loaf was probably doomed.

So I took my hot DO out of the oven and turned over my basket. The dough STUCK to the cloth -- it's never done that before. What little skin got ripped and it landed all cattywumpus in the DO. Cloth was wetter than I'd ever encountered.

Meet Frankenloaf:

I could've wept with frustration. I think I blunted my bread knife trying to cut it open the next morning.

I began to suspect the flour

Once I calmed down, it began to dawn on me that this fiasco and the one that prompted this original post were both made with a new bag of stone-ground T80 flour. I'd noticed when I'd brought it home last week that I'd purchased it on the use-by date. Being lazy and having already tossed the receipt, I sort of figured that using "week-old" flour wasn't going to have an impact. But I was beginning to wonder if there wasn't something…

So, being pig-headed, I went and bought some run-of-the-mill T80. Mixed up a starter with 20g of cold discard fed at 1:2:2, waited for it to mature and added it to 240g of T80 and 60g of whole-wheat that had autolysed for an hour and a half. Let it sit for half an hour, then took it out to knead and fold in some sesame seeds. Bulk ferment then went straight into the fridge overnight.

Preshape was still dicey, things feeling wetter this morning than last night, but I think I am just not gifted… Bench rested briefly, "shaped" and into the fridge for a couple of hours.

Once again, the dough stuck to the cloth during loading, which meant that all the sesame/poppy seeds that were meant to be on top wound up on the bottom of the DO. At that point, I was far from optimistic.

After 20 minutes, removed the lid of the DO and was pleasantly surprised. Back into the oven uncovered and 15 minutes later, pulled this out:

This one's ok, isn't it? I'm more relieved than anything else. Do you think it could've been the flour? What does "gluten degradation" look like?

Am I driving you crazy?

Sorry to have rambled on like that.

Thank you again for all your help and suggestions. And I guess I'm finally going to taste bread pudding.

Best regards,

Carole

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

But just wanted to quickly say what a mighty fine loaf that is. Lovely indeed! After a read through (sorry for the quick reply) I think two things... 

1: the first one was over proofed. 

2: the hydration for the flour you're using should be lower. 

But we can discuss that later. For now enjoy the satisfaction of a complete success. And get soaking the frankenloaf (might need longer than 30 min till soft) for the bread pudding.  

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Congratulations on your biga loaf!

Enjoy the afternoon.

hreik's picture
hreik

in preference to everything else for almost a 2 years I think. Just that and small amounts of rye. 

I wonder if you didn't develop the dough enough.  I have been using Trevor's method and notice that b/f the s&f I have quite a bit of pushing around the bowl.  Incorporating things until the dough feels right.... I know I know...v ery vague.

Just thinking aloud here.

And Agree you should try Abe's iteration.  No yogurt, use one kind of flour.  I use less salt than almost anyone, just 1.5% instead of the standard 2%.  Though in France by law bakeries have to use only up 1.5% I believe.

Good luck and keep us posted.

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I shall try Abe's method, keeping things simple.

Trevor's indication is a bit vague, and I do get mesmerized just watching how clean his hands and bowl are throughout the entire process. If it weren't so beautiful, it would be disheartening. I dunno, I sort of thought that I'd been mixing enough, but perhaps you're right. I like that Abe's iteration is a small loaf; sometimes I feel like I've got too much dough for my hands. But I think that's just clumsiness.

I love T65 flour. Would you consider that "bread flour", or should I shift to T80? I will get tripped up with that for a long time, I think, so if you, with your experience, have any guidance, I'm all ears.

Bien à vous,

Carole

hreik's picture
hreik

At least for me.  I was doing 2 kg of dough at a time when I was making Norwich sourdough loaves.  Always made 4 500-gm loaves.  Once I switched to Trevor's method and backed off on the starter amount I was unable to manage to work with more than 1K of dough at a time. Even that amount is hard for me.  No matter what kind of flour I am using.  So if I were to make 2 kilos of dough I could not do it all at once.  No way.  Trevor's amount is perfect for handling but not for our house (too much).  So I scaled it up (Keeping all proportions similar) to get to 1000 gm of dough (so 2 loaves).  I can handle that.  But I use a step wise process exactly as he describes on his video for 65%.

Now about the Flour.  I made very nice breads (at least I think so) with just T65, though the levain was a much bigger percentage of the dough and I barely needed to handle it. I have never worked with T 80 so I cannot advise you.  I think T65 is a lovely flour but finicky and will fall apart easily (or so I've read).  The best discussion here on French Flours was here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10182/french-and-american-flour-123-formula.

I used T65 on this loaf, using the Norwich SD amounts, but using Trevor's method of handling..  The increase in the leaven  (compared to his amounts) used made the handling much easier.

 

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

When I think about how painful it is to play with a scant 500g of flour, I can imagine you all dying of laughter!

Thanks for taking the pains to explain, and showing me your T65 loaves. I'm familiar with both JaneDough and Flo, both on here and on their respective French blogs. Jane has no qualms at all about making all-T80 or all-T110 loaves; Flo, on the other hand, says she uses at least 40% T65 to get some lift, otherwise the "wholer" grains leave things a bit flat (aha! there's my excuse -- only 100g of T65! A poor workman will blame his tools). A shame, I've just stocked up on both T80 and T110 (I sort of need to pounce when I find them, since they're locally sourced and the biocoop doesn't always have them), but I'll be good and try to do all T65. BTW, the reason for the wonky cocktail in the first place is that I've read here and there about the differences between French and American flours. T65 is just under 10% protein, T80 is about 12%, and I'm too tired to get up and check what it is on T110. So I was (wrongly, obviously) thinking that I could approximate the Trevor mix of bread and whole wheat flours, since I think US bread flour is 14%?

I also realize that I'm going about this all too un-scientifically by changing too many variables from one bake to the next. Lack of discipline and generally just wanting to have fun.

Anyway, I'm rambling now; will cut open today's cow pat tomorrow morning -- if push comes to shove, we'll have 600g of croutons and breadcrumbs: onion soup, swiss chard gratin and croque monsieur…

Thank you again, Hester.

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)
  • For at least 30 minutes until soft. 
  • Drain off the water and squeeze the bread to remove excess. 
  • Add in some golden syrup, eggs and melted butter or margarine. 
  • With your hands mix thoroughly! 
  • Portion out into a baking tray and sprinkle with brown sugar. 
  • Bake until golden brown. 

Enjoy your bread pudding :)

hreik's picture
hreik

so now about 615 of flour and about 400 of water.  So it's not 1K of flour.  No way I could manage that.

The ideal using Trevor's method and small starter amount considering the flour I'm using now which is very high in protein and  very dry would be 1/2 of that.  lol

hester

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

 I don't think I've ever had bread pudding. Golden syrup: I've seen it in recipes but am not sure what it is. Could honey or maple syrup or soft brown sugar or a mix of these do the job?

Thanks for taking the sting out of the splat. It should make a nice dessert. I've got kiwis, bananas and a papaya. Any decent pairing here?

Oh, and I should probably remove the top, which is sprinkled with sesame and caraway seeds, right?

Sweet dreams

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Sorry for no exact measurements but bread pudding isn't one of those recipes. My mother made it with any bread that was going stale which had been leftover for two days. In fact she says it's best when it's two days old. Works a treat with an enriched bread but any will do. I believe maple syrup would be best. No problem with sesame and caraway (sesame I'm sure will be fine but caraway while I'm not sure I can't see why not as it can go with sweet things). As long as it goes with a sweet dish. 

Never had it with kiwis, bananas or papayas so couldn't say but my mother often added in raisins. 

Let me know how it goes. Childhood memories :)

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I think banana would be the best bet. Then again, I've got scads of raisins...

And I've just checked my flour packages: the T80 has 12% protein, the t110 has 11.7. Go figure. T80 has the shorter use-by date, also. So your bread will use that.

Go to sleep!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

480

needed sugar. May I learn how to make a proper pud before I ruin another bake.

Thanks again for your help and kindness.

Carole

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Looks good! 

What do you think of it otherwise? Sorry I couldn't give more exact instructions but that's a bread pudding kinda recipe. 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

it would be like trying to come up with my brownie recipe.

I did remember the maple syrup, but was too wimpy with it, figuring also that, if needed, more could be added at table. And then I remembered I'd made an overly sweet rhubarb compote, so it all balanced out.

Thanks again for all of this, it's been fun (except for ruining a loaf -- I hate that kind of stuff).

So, is your biga loaf more lactic or acetic as time wears on?

All the best,

Carole

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

The acidity hasn't increased but the flavour has. It's definitely acetic tang but not too sour. Very pleasant. 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I wanna try that one! You've got me really curious…

Enjoy it!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And I don't see why you can't try it soon. That loaf you made looked amazing. Did you like the taste? 

Two things... 

1: drop the hydration for the flour you're using. I think around 60% should be fine. You can always add more water later if you think the dough needs it. 

2: look at videos on handling dough especially Trevor's at www.breadwerx.com

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I did like the taste, but found the crumb less open than my very, very first SD loaf here.

About your remarks:

  • check on the first one; what to you think of using 20g of dough water to dissolve the salt? Or does it not matter?
  • Trevor's videos? Of course, I've seen them -- over and over and over again. If his dough handling weren't so beautiful to watch, it would be disheartening.

Offshoot question:

Because I'm a klutz I've been trying to keep my loaves small, until such time as it looks like I can handle dough. But is there such a thing as too small a quantity of dough? It seems to me that, in one of his videos, Trevor made passing reference to how it's tougher to get surface tension when doing a small batch in a small bowl. But then again, the exercise you put me through wasnt so tiny…

Have fun!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Beautiful. Even now I'm very hesitant in coating the dough in seeds/flakes. Too scared I might spoil it. 

1: up to you. I have done it both ways. Whatever you think works best. 

2: since I bake one loaf a week I never bake a loaf smaller than 900g-1kg. 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

where a FreshLoafer sprinkled loads of seeds into the banneton because he didn't want sticking problems. Seemed like a win/win proposition to me… (and I have a box of rolled oats that really should be consumed).

But so why are my loaves looking worse, rather than better?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Till you can do it blindfolded. It's clearly a success and looks very good indeed. Use that recipe to practice all your skills. Then after a few more bakes like that then think about another recipe. 

When I first started I wanted to do this that and the other. Eventually I needed to backtrack and go simple then practice practice practice. 

Make 2 or 3 small loaves a week. Instead of 1 big loaf. If you have time. 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

was supposed to have been a re-run of that first recipe. That's why I was so upset that it wasn't turning out as well.

The other loaf this week, the one that you liked, was just a goof-off 1-2-3 loaf made with discard to see if my woes were flour-related.

I do one small loaf a week, no more than 500g flour, and if I start running low on bread, the 1-2-3 method has become my go-to.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Simple recipe, great "other" resource. Thanks!

G'night.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

European flour and a cool-looking oven naan recipe!

Thanks!

albacore's picture
albacore

Just had a quick scan through this thread - you are already being guided by experts, but I note that you say your T80 is stoneground.

Stoneground flours tend to be coarser than roller milled and, although possibly more flavoursome, may not rise as well. You might be better using some standard roller milled white bread flour with a protein of 12% ish, if you can get it.

Once you are on track, then start to use the stone ground flours, maybe initially as a blend.

Lance

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

just seeing your comment. If you're interested, I've just added another episode to this stupid saga.

But you hit the nail on the head: T65, which is commonly considered bread flour here, is only 10%-ish, sometimes just under. So I thought, since we want strong bread flour, that the T80, at about 12%, should fit the bill. And yes, I've gone back to roller-milled, with nice, long use-by dates…

Carole

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

backtrack to the famous 1,2,3 recipe.  It 's a basic and great for creative people that can't bare to repeat the same old recipe.  I got creative elves that sit near my dough mixing area and love to toss in ingredients as long as they can get away with it.  

For the past 2 years, making 500g flour loaves has been my daily bread as large loaves wouldn't fit into my mini oven.  Much to your frustration, this thread has been entertaining and I'm glad to see you're keeping a positive outlook when things aren't working.   (Toss in some eggs and milk "French toast" and a bit of cinnamon in my pudding, please.  ...berries, fruit, bacon and nuts await but not all for the same pudding.) Pudding... I think here in Austria they like to cube the bread dice in apples and lovingly call the end result a "wood pile" as in "Scheiterhaufen."  Worth a look-see in the net.

I was wondering about the size of the DO.  You are using perhaps a weak stone ground flour and it may need more matrix support.  Without adding the finer flour, a smaller DO or bread pan may be the key giving the dough side support for a higher rise.  Another option may be to dry roast a small portion of T80 flour and add water to make a roux or Thangzhong.  5% of the total flour is a good starting point.  X 5. For the water amount.  Weigh to add back any lost water in the cooking process when cooled.   Also by upping the whole flour content from the original recipe, there will be an increase the fermenting time as those little beasties love all the minerals and food they're getting and there are added enzymes in using more bran.

Rolled oats are great for lining baskets and pans with wet doughs.  Can roll the shaped loaf also in a tray of rolled oats or green squash seeds or chopped nuts or bread crumbs or, or, or.

Waiting to hear back on the diameter of the DO while soaking up the last warmth of this unusual weather.  May weather in April!  Hope the frost stays away as all the trees have tiny fruits on them already.  The problem with everything blooming all at once is the lack of bees to pollinate everything in the limited time frame.  This has been the fastest spring ever!

Mini

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I read your comments and solutions and marvel at all the stuff you know and how easily you just toss it all out there.

If I seem to be keeping a positive outlook throughout this learning process, it's entirely due to the knowledge and the support here, particularly from Abe and Hester. This site is amazing, but sometimes too distracting -- I find myself paging through here instead of working.

You've come up with an interesting -- and daunting -- solution for me to try. I'd never even heard of Tangzhong until I started flipping through this site. It sounds like something I would definitely want to try, but I don't feel like I'm ready yet and think I should concentrate first on turning out consistently well-shaped and well-risen loaves. (Unless you think that this step would help me get there.)

Now, to answer your question: my round DO (used for the little loaf above) is 20cm in diameter; the oval one, used for the two fiascoes on this thread and my very first SD loaf, is 20cm wide (for sure) and 28cm long (I think; does that proportion sound right?) I do own a smaller covered glass thingy, probably in the neighborhood of ø18cm, but I don't think it's Pyrex (probably Arcopal, if that means anything to you), and have been too scared to put it empty into a hot oven. Although, since I've seen several threads talking about "cold start" DO, I may give that a try. I just would hate to have that one shatter, since I don't think that size is being made anymore.

I experimented with another way of coating with seeds/rolled oats: lay out the towel that's going to be used in the banneton, sprinkle your stuff over a large middle portion of it, plunk your dough down in the center of it, then gather up the cloth by its corners and lower the whole works into the basket. Hopefully, anything that didn't get sat on by the dough will now wind up on the sides of the loaf. That was my theory, but since my loaf loaded all cockeyed, I'll need to try again to make sure.

You might have liked Frankenpudding: instead of butter, I had some coconut oil that I wanted to finish up, then stayed on the tropical side of things by using coconut milk cinnamon and nutmeg, brown sugar, maple syrup (oops, not so tropical there), an egg and loads of raisins (cause Abe said so!) Topped it with grated dried coconut and blond cane sugar. As a dessert, it needed more sugar. As breakfast with yogurt, it was fine.

The 1-2-3 recipe works for me because it just feels more stress-free than actually following a "real" recipe; I'm still trying to find something that works for me, in terms of time, energy and attention, not to mention which flours give the best results. Too much of my day is spent feeling like I'm late for something, and baking bread was going to be a way for me to decompress and spend some time just for me (I suppose other women would go and get their nails done or something).

I'm also trying to figure out how best to retard, either bulk or proof, and time things so that I'm not turning on the oven just for a loaf of bread. That high temperature is great for charring a couple of eggplant and/or red peppers, either during the pre-heating or after the bread is done.

Abe has very thoughtfully provided a link to another recipe from the Weekend Baker, which has the advantage of being geared toward European flour, so I might give that a shot on the next bake.

Has someone started a thread with what can be done with flops? Bread pudding was a lovely solution; there's also an Italian recipe for pasta with breadcrumbs…

Enjoy the sunshine, I gotta get back to work.

Been great meeting you!

Carole

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

french soup is made using bread to flavour and thicken.  I tend to slice up flops and feed them to levains or starters, that will also speed the fermentation by the way and boost flavour esp. if toasted first. 

You can try the final rise in the DO, size seems about right.  Just add about 15 min to the initial baking time.  Which means try to be less risen saving more rise for the oven heat.  And yes, I often end up heating the oven for just bread.  The home ovens in Europe are much smaller than American ovens so "wasting heat" is not such a theme.  

But I still find myself lining up bakes.  Lol!  Some good habits are hard to break!  If the DO is covered, the fan setting heats faster and hotter and more economical.  I've cleaned up mil's candle holders after a bake and used the heat to dry bannetons or sliced bread.  Crumbled bread can be dried for your very own cereal or used in desserts.  What to do with all the desserts!  If sliced thin and not too hard when dry, you can make crackers from flops.  I've cut some into sticks and dried them for dog treats if the loaves are rather plain. Soaking and crumbling can also be recycled into another loaf.  I've gone up to 33% baked bread to total loaf weight.  Just watch out with the salt.  (Unless the flop is an unsalted loaf!)

One thing I wouldn't do is experiment with a beloved pot, one you would not want to loose to extreme temperature changes.  Try something else, there are always options.  I never forget my favourite pots.  

We all help each other here, at least we try to.  You've heard the expression, "It takes a village to raise a child."  Well, it is sorta like that with good bread... 

        ...sort of like adds a new dimension to the description of "a village baker" doesn't it?

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

You can try the final rise in the DO, size seems about right.

I would love to be able to do this, but then the final rise won't be proofing in a cloth-lined basket? Or have I missed a step somewhere? And if I do this, it should be final rise on the counter and not in the fridge? With cornmeal on the bottom of the DO, or parchment?

Thanks for your lights, as they say in French!

Carole

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

with butter and sprinkle some cornmeal or flour or crumbs or seeds onto the sides or just use parchment.  Let the shaped dough do a final rise in the DO and bake before it reaches double.  That means skip the banneton step or only rest the dough in the basket long enough to get an impression then turn out into the DO to finish the rise.  All can be done in the refrigerator.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

 as I worked up a sweat trying to saw Frankenloaf into soakable dimensions.

Soaking and crumbling can also be recycled into another loaf.  I've gone up to 33% baked bread to total loaf weight

Tell me about this! You just scale down another bread recipe and then add soaked-and-crumbled flop? I still have about a third of Frankenloaf that was slated for breadcrumbs. Will have to break it up first with a rolling pin or stone pestle. But as an experiment, that sounds like fun. What's the final loaf come out like? I mean if the flop was dense, do I not risk having a dense clone?

And yes, happy to have arrived at this village!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

scale a recipe down then take the liquid and soak the bread, it breaks apart much easier after soaking.  Can even do the soaking in a blender and give it a few short pulses to break apart the crust, but be careful not to turn it into bread "milk."  A little rough is nice and I prefer to smash up the big lumps with my fingers and get into the goop.  Add the ripe sourdough starter (levain) spices, and enjoy the aromas and extra moisture.  Sooner or later get serious and stir in the flour & salt.  Let the flours absorb liquids and then adjust using either a fine bench flour or a wet kneading surface.  

You might want to be tasting and sniffing your dough and starters to determine how they change while they ferment, might help prevent over fermenting of the bread dough.