Hi Jane,

I have had similar results like you just had with French and American flour.  I did noticed that with French flour that it only took 2 or 3 minutes to get the dough formed.  With American flour, it can take up to 5 to 7 minutes.  I guess that is why most bakers in America do an autolyse with their bread dough.  From my personal opinion, the end result of the mixed dough using the French flour has a much supple or delicate feel than the mixed dough using the American flour.

I have also noticed that the French flour does not suck up alot of water compared to the American flour.  For instance if I mix 100 gr French flour with 100 gr of water, I will end up with a thin soupy batter, but if I mix 100 gr American flour with 100 gr of water, I will end up with a thick batter.

As for taste, I will have to agree with you there.  When I was in Paris, my baking instructor made a pain au levain bread with a bit of rye or wheat, and the taste was outstanding.  The baking instructor gave out the formula, and when I tried it back home, the taste was just not the same.  I could not even taste the rye or wheat in the bread.  As for appearance, the breads in America do tend to be a bit shiny.

I think the bakers in America need to have a careful understanding of the flour they are using, so they can get the best out of it when using it for preferments and making their bread doughs.

...Marvelous Jane. ;-)

My lovely wife is Brazilian, my mother is Lebanese, my father German.

I do all the baking and try my best to share a world's culture with my family.
  All the best,
    Mark

I'm so glad to know it's not  just me!   I tried the 1.2.3 formula three times and had almost exactly the results you describe. Too soft, it spread, etc.  I do use mostly KA AP, it's not easy to find other, better flours.  I get some occasionally.  I also found it to be pretty bland.  Sometimes I do add rye and it helps.

How nice that you got to try the KA AP - and now you know what we're all using. 

If I'm making enriched breads like challah, everything is fine.  Also Susan's sourdough is wonderful made with the flour.  I just adjust recipes to suit my taste, but I just couldn't make the 1,2,3 work as a straight formula.  ( You're right that I wanted to add more flour, but the finished loaf is too dense.)  I think you are suggesting kneading longer.  I can try that. 

It was nice to see your post and that you're back.  You always have something great baking.  I hope your Holidays were wonderful and Happy New Year!

Thanks again,

Marni

Hi, Jane.

Happy New Year!

Thanks to you and SteveB for finally doing the flour swap. I'm eager to get Steve's results to compare to yours.

From your description I have to think that the American flour protein level may be a relatively poor predictor of gluten content ... or gluten quality (?). Some one with more knowledge of bread science than I will hopefully comment on this.

Supposedly, ash content is associated with flavor, but I'm sure it's not that simple.

I guess I just have to return to France to refresh my taste memory. <sigh>

David

It is all about taste here in France. Bread is so important here, it's just uncomprehensible to someone who has either never been here, or has never eaten REAL bread, the kind you all make on this site.

I too was, well, shocked, I suppose, as to how QUICKLY bread dough forms using Bio T55, as I was used to KA AP in the States. And the flavour is just pronounced bread, it's so different.

Funny, I used to be so "American Bread Flour Chauvinistic" but... I've completely changed my mind.

Hi Jane, glad you're back! I enjoyed reading your post, with everybody sniffing and tasting and, sadly, no flavor to be found.

I'm afraid you're right about a lot of American flour. Especially the non-organic sort which most everybody uses because the organic is so *^$%ed expensive. The lack-of-taste issue is why I never bake any bread with just white flour, and why I now only bake sourdough, unless there's a pressing need. And yes, organic is worth it, if you want really good tasting bread.

That said, I have never had any problem with the 1.2.3 formula. I have even changed my levain back to 100% hydration and the dough, made with KA bread flour as a base, is never too wet or too slack. I always use some whole grain flour, which no doubt soaks up some of the water. Also I do a 30-minute autolyse, the "true" kind, as you once suggested to me, and I only machine-mix after that for 2 minutes on medium, and end with 2 minutes of hand kneading. After that, the dough is always very well developed. I'm not a window-pane tester, more of a Hamelman-don't-overoxidize the dough kind of baker. Folding the dough afterward always builds plenty of gluten, with a good rise and similar oven spring. So maybe the whole grain flour is making the difference?

Marni, since I think I remember that you're on the west coast, if you haven't already used it, I would try Bob's Red Mill's stoneground, organic flour. My recollection is that compared to KA, Bob's is pretty inexpensive, even for organic. More important, I suspect you'll notice a big (positive) flavor difference. I really wish Bob's had a processing center on the east coast. :-(

Again, thanks for posting your very instructive comparison, Jane.

Soundman (David)

 I think this speaks to the issue of terroir - of flavors being local and methods needing to be adapted to local materials.

Because I have tended to travel a great deal, I am always intrigued by this.  This is why I always qualify my writing with "my dough/my hands/my altitude/etc."

The wheat growing and milling traditions must be different in the two countries.  After all, we live in a country where my adopted home - the great state of Colorado - is about half the size of the entire country of France (a country for which I also have an undying love.)  Things have got to work a little differently here.  Climate and soil also have to be considered.  You can't grow a crop where it doesn't want to grow.

I spent over a year tweaking my baguette formula with different percentages of flour pre-fermented - different hydrations - and on and on until I got the taste that I like.  I think that this is the baker's craft.  Is it the best in Paris?  Well, I don't think so.  I don't live in Paris.  It might be the best in Denver - although we don't have that kind of competition here - but it is bread that I am pleased to eat.  I am forced to ponder that differences in the types of wheat might be why the US has a long tradition of enriched and pan breads, whereas France has a long tradition of lean breads, and more northern climates long traditions of rye breads. I like to eat my imitation baguette, but it will never do anything but remind me of what I can eat in Paris.  I think it can never do otherwise and I shouldn't expect it to.

It's almost heresy here on these pages, but I do consider that  sometimes we "serious home bakers" get caught up in recreating breads from other locations (I'm guilty of it, also...) and forget to explore the richness of our own locale and traditions.

Also I cannot help but reflect on "my teacher's" dim opinion of the overnight  retard method for baguettes. Again, this person has baked many years with American flours.  Could it be that these many years of learning play into that opinion?

The flour has, as far as I know, always been the difference between breads in various countries.  And as I look into 2009 and form plans for planting, baking, and canning, I am considering being just a little "high prairie" chauvinistic and considering how to celebrate what my high, dry, hard wheat growing locale has to offer.

Obviously I think about terroir way too much.

But, Jane, thanks as always for providing some valuable food - for thought.

Pat

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

Marni, you should try the kneading description of David (Soundman). I'll bet that will work wonders. If you use KA AP, an addition of some rye or ww would bring some flavor.

David Snyder, I think you are right. There is something going on there with protein content and real gluten development! I don't think the 10 or 11,5% protein really indicates how the dough is going to handle. Ash content has some to do, but T55, which is a pretty "white" flour, still has way more flavour than the KA AP.

Another thing that surprised me that I forgot to mention: the dough wasn't sticky! French flour in a sourdough is VERY sticky and unless the hydration level is really low, it always remains fairly loose, supple and sticky. So, when I see the videos from Mike from the Back home Bakery and the dough is NOT sticky, now I understand!

Pat, I'm in total agreement with you. It goes back to our tests with the sourdough with a touch of rye that we all named for our locations. Bread is very individual, not only because of the difference in ingredients, but also the handling, the baking. Great bread can be made anywhere. We're just here to continue this great quest of baking FANTASTIC bread!

As for your teacher, I think that must be pretty true. Those french bakers get used to American ingredients... and even tastes! They can introduce some French techniques and ideas, but in the end, they're working with American flours that don't react at all like ours and they have to adapt to that. Plus, if they HAVE to work with a certain brand of flour and say it is marvelous, that influences things, too, I'd say!

I think I'm going to STOP buying any American books because the recipes don't work very often, or they go to these great lengths to get incredible taste, when a simpler method works so well here. An example is that Poilâne style bread I posted on my au levain blog. In American books, the procedure to make a Poilane style bread is almost tedious. But because our flour is so tasty, the bread procedure can be so very simple because the T80 is such an incredible flour! I dare say that a simple bread procedure here will still be tastier than the complicated on in the States (oops, I'm being chauvinistic again!)

I sent some salt to Steve as well and I hope he talks about that, too. Even our salt is VERY different!

But regardless, as I said, this has been such an incredible learning experience. I still have to decide what to do with the bread flour! I haven't tried it, yet.

Jane

What a great, inspiring discussion! Thanks to Jane and Steve for sharing results from their cross-cultural experiment. Bread baking sans frontiers!

I'm under the impression that your "typical" American flour is slightly higher in protein content than most European counterparts.Isn't this higher protein content a result of "selective breeding"; American millers or bakers have actively sought flour that are higher in protein, thereby containing more gluten and resulting in larger loaf volumes? The higher protein will affect dough handling (probably soak up more water?), favoring volume over air pockets in the crumb. The European counterpart would probably produce a slightly lower bread profile, with a crumb sporting larger, more irregular air pockets. Right?

To add my grain of (French-US) salt, I would like to offer the following:

• When baking baguettes, I almost always use Nancy Silverton's formula based on 100% starter and overnight retardation in the fridge which produces the baguettes we like best with a complex flavor and an excellent crust.  I used to make them with KA bread flour but don't anymore as I switched to Whole Foods 365 Organic Unbleached Flour and I am quite happy with both its flavor and the way it handles.
• I once tried to make these baguettes with KA French-style flour and even though the dough came together like magic and the baguettes almost shaped themselves without any intervention, the resulting loaves were extremely disappointing. They had no taste whatsoever.
• Because of that experience, I was very curious to taste baguettes made using the same formula but with French flour. My niece Flo Makanai was kind enough to bake some for me using T65 flour last time I visited and they tasted exactly like the ones I make back in the States, which is very interesting as, regardless of the flour, using the same formula and the same method, we got the same results. I didn't expect it to be the case.
• I watched Flo knead the dough for these baguettes (the video is on my blog at  http://www.bombance.net/2008/11/naissance-dune-pte.html) and was surprised to see how quickly it came together (8 to 10 minutes of vigorous hand kneading), an observation which tallies with Steve and Jen's experiences.
• I made a major (for me) discovery the other day. Water plays a HUGE role in the way a dough handles. I was getting disappointing results at my new house and having adjusted all other factors (including getting a proofbox for these cold winter months), I could only think that the source of the problem might be that we use well water.
• So we brought in city water (we have a small city apartment) and, bingo ! no need for any adjustment whatsoever. I used Nancy Silverton's proportions straight from the book without changing anything, kneading with my 12-year old Rival mixer and voilà ! the dough came out flexible and smooth, the baguettes shaped easily and were just perfect with a crunchy crust (but then the crust is always crunchy and chewy with levain, isn't it?) and a holey and airy crumb. 
• This is a preliminary report on my experience as I will have to try a few of my favorite recipes using city water to see what kind of results I get (I also intend to try again Flo's 1.2.3 formula as it produces an unmanageable  wet dough when using our well water, which doesn't tally with Jen and Steve's observations). I will as soon as I come back from San Francisco where I am heading for some breadbaking classes. Meanwhile I contemplate with dismay a future where we may have to schlepp city water to our home every weekend...

...Noticed they have a PDF you can D/L:
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?select=C79&byCategory=C128&id=3334

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/product-info/labels-small/3334_FrenchStyle.pdf

Jane,

Hmmm...Maybe it's the water :>)

Howard

Where I live (Northeast of the United States), WF 365 Organic Unbleached Flour is often cheaper than KA Unbleached All-Purpose Flour. I can't give you the exact figures because I don't have them off the top of my head, because they do vary from store to store (the best prices on KA flours are to be found at Walmart) and because Whole Foods sometimes runs specials during which I stock up. It is sold in 5lb-bags.

This topic has got me thinking about the fields where the grain grows.   I've observed that the farms and fields are smaller in Europe than those in the US.  The smaller fields are also near and in close contact to woods,  orchards, and hay fields of flowers in comparison to the large roaming seas of wheat fields typical to North America.  I can't help but wonder if the variety of microflora on the grain may have a lot to do with the flavor and if there are more varieties in smaller fields than larger ones. 

Mini

...now if Steve would just share some of that flour.

I enjoyed reading both experiences. Makes me wish I could try European flours. I'm with dmsnyder on the frustration thing.

Maybe TFL needs to create a CO-OP to import Euro-Flour in bulk to share among its denizens?

A question for Jane: Do you bake rye breads at all?

John

The best thing to buy bag of flour from France and ask the miller if he/she make flour.The reason is I try to make some European breads or the pastries and I had very hard time to do it. Let say breads from Czech Republic,Austria,Russia and any countries.We ship them our wheat and they process it different way.Our A/P is close to they but not perfect. If you make French the bread here is same in France taste different. Try to bring to miller sampes and ask them to make some that Franch flour,but you must buy large quantity.American public are not use that breads (they like Wondra bread),sometime I wondering what is in.

                              Saintdennis

Hi everyone and Happy New Year to all of you!

I've just read your posts with great interest. Thanks a lot Jane and SteveB for taking the time and money to make those tests for all of us!

Here is what I can add:

* I recently tried to bake a Portuguese sweet bread following exactly Suas' recipe, with French organic T65,  and I ended up with an extremely liquid dough, quite like a cake batter. I was surprised because I had taken it for granted, from what many among you had told me before, that US flours needed LESS water than French flours, so I thought I had made a mistake. I reread the recipe carefully and I had not made any mistake. Then Jane told me about her using US flours and everything fell into place : US flours need MORE water than my organic French one, so I baked the Portuguese bread once again with significantly less water and it worked perfectly.

* Maybe it's not only that the kneading has to be longer when using US flour, if you don't want a slack and overly wet dough, it's also the WAY you knead your dough. In France, my 1.2.3 formula is a complete success with eveyone who uses the slap and fold (Bertinet) method for kneading. People who use conventionnal kneading process like push and fold find the dough to be too wet. David (Soundman), I know you've adopted the 1.2.3 formula and you get super good results : HOW do you knead your dough?

* If I understood correctly, Nancy Silverton was immensely helped by Suas before opening La Brea Bakery. Suas helped her find out recipes that would work out correctly each time and that provided an excellent bread. Suas is French, he has been trained by the best in France, so it's not impossible that Nancy Silverton baguettes' recipe, for example, has been elaborated to get in the US, with US flours, a taste that is very much like French bread using French flour. I have never tasted my aunt MC's bread, but it's not impossible that her Silverton baguettes are very much similar to mine, which she tested at my home recently as she reports in her comment above. Because Siverton's way of retarding the dough surely has an enormous impact on the flour's flavor.

* It's a different story when one bakes bread in the US vs. in France without retarding the dough. No "cheating" allowed, then : if the flour is bland, so will be the bread, the lack of added flavor due to a long fermentation will reveal the poor taste of the flour, don't you think so?

* the water surely plays its role, too.

* Proth5 : I'm very sorry to inform you that Berthillon does sell marrons glacés ice cream and that it is absolutely delicious! We always have some at my parents' house for Christmas : marrons glacés ice cream and pear sherbet. Mmmmm. So now you just need to fly to Paris ASAP ;-)

being able to bake the best we can from the products we have.  That takes a little experimenting.  Isn't that what we're up to?

I would like to see more regional baking differences.  What does your particular area have to offer and how can ingredients be combined to make something good, great?   It is memorable when a travel experience brings with it a new experience in eating.   Variety is the spice of life and good food certainly brings many back for more.  It is the essence of good tourism.

So, when do we fly to France?

Mini

• Retarding the dough in the fridge certainly has a huge impact on the flavor as pointed out in most US bread books but so does the use of levain-chef, preferments, etc. In Silverton's baguettes, the slow fermentation combined with the flavor of the starter produces a complex and very characteristic taste which we are very much hooked on. In other formulas, I get almost the same taste (with subtle and delicious differences) using levain-chef.
• However I once made 5-minute no-knead dough with very very little yeast using the recipe provided by Jeff Hertzberg and Zoë François in Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day. As I didn't get back home as scheduled, it sat "forgotten" in the fridge for close to three weeks. When I came back, I took it out to make baguettes. They were hard to shape because the dough was very wet and limp and when baked, a bit on the ugly side but they were totally delicious, crunchy, without much crumb but with a taste to die for. See my post on the issue: http://www.bombance.net/2008/09/une-bonne-pte.html (it is in French, sorry)
• Conversely, I once made baguettes using the same recipe but out of dough which was just 2 days old and they were quite bland. "Sans intérêt" (nothing to write home about) as we say in French... I'd rather go without bread than eat that kind of baguettes.
• So water, flour, fermentation, everything has an impact and that's the fun of it. It makes you feel a little bit like a conductor trying to get all the musicians to come together to make gorgeous music.
•  I also love the notion of "terroir" mentioned in several of the comments and the huge variety of tastes that it offers in breads, just as in cheeses or wines. I once talked with the owners of Della Fattoria bakery in Petaluma and they told me they purchase wheat grown on high plains as it produces the best match with the local water and other ingredients that they use in the bakery.
• Finally it should be said that finding good bread in France has been a hit-and-miss proposition for quite a few years now and since expectations are always high regarding French bread, it is/was disappointing. However there are signs that the trend is starting to reverse. I have had excellent bread lately from small artisanal bakeries in villages around Paris where the bread used to be mediocre at best. When they have time (for instance on weekends), people go more and more to specific bakeries (not necessarily well-known ones) to get specific loaves. In other words, there is a bread renaissance at large in France as well as in the US and it is very exciting to witness.
• Also, more and more people I know in France are making their own breads...and that is exciting too.

All of this being said at this blog, can we Americans (Floridians at that) ever hope to achieve a bread that is delightful as the above example, made with French flour?  

Steve - you said you can achieve the flavor by using 5-10% whole wheat - or are you ruined by the results of your experience with T65.

Maybe we should start a French flour import business.  With the current bread rage in the states, why don't the millers try to achieve something close?

Wow, what a read! I'm so glad this discussion has taken off and so much information and ideas can be shared.

I have a question... what about high extraction flour. I know David Snyder uses it, Pat probably gets something pretty similar. I don't really know exactly what it is, but I think it must be around a T80. I think it is hard to come by in the States or expensive, but it might be an interesting flour to use when searching for a T65 equivalent... majority of AP with some high extraction. It doesn't resolve the gluten problem, but it may resolve the taste.

The thing about taste is that it is very individual. People taste things differently according to their culture, pas experiences, health. What may seem bland to me may seem explosive to someone else. So, really that can be a delicate subject. Even though I found the loaf I made "tasteless", it was a MILLION times better than regular soft bread from a sac and still better than many baguettes I have had in France. Everything is relative.

Upping the bar is always interesting and exciting. It's no fun arriving at total perfection, afterwards would get boring. I just think it would be interesting to be able to play with different American flours to get better taste and not necessarily having to do a bunch of fermenting tricks to achieve it. Simple bread is nice sometimes!

David (Soundman): Your description of working with that dough sounds right on. That is exactly the experience I had, but I did it 100% in the Kenwood.

I'm all for the International Fresh Loaf Terroir Get Together! Everyone has to come with their regional bakes. It has to be in Boston so Flo and I don't have to cross the continent, just the ocean. :-)

Jane

<please remove this comment>

Sorry about the formatting on the top line. A MS code problem I suspect.

Wow, where do I start! I just read this thread from top to bottom and it contains some extremely interesting bit of information. The first thing that hit me was Jane's family comments that the bread didn't smell like anything. I guess that's where I will start. How can anything that doesn't smell good, taste great? The nose has such an effect on taste, surely the place to start has to be in finding a way to improve the aroma of our breads.

Since the crust being caramelized would have the best chance of creating the majority of smell, the available sugar in the flour along with ash seems like a good thing to look at. Dsnyder (David), I think you may be on to something with the high extraction combination.

SteveB, Your image of the T-65 bread is wonderful. It has the look of a perfectly balanced loaf. Since you are the one who has actually felt the flour in your hands and smelled the finished bread, do you have an opinion on what it would take to improve the aroma of our breads? I don't use KA flours and have been adding 5% white rye with my Gold Medal "Better for Bread". I happened to be in Whole Foods yesterday and saw the 365 flour you once mentioned. Could you compare the T65 to the 365 in any meaningful way?

MC, Your comments are very insightful to me. After watching your video of Flo kneading I discovered the dough was sans salt and yeast. Interesting. I have never kneaded a dough without those items. It would be interesting to know what kind of processing the city uses where you have your apartment. Could you tell us what city it is and if you have time perhaps ask the water department which process they use? I also have well water but it is run through an Iron filter before we see it. I purposefully avoid using water that has been softened, in the kitchen, by routing the plumbing with soft water around the kitchen. I think this is a common practice in the US to avoid the salt in the softened water. Taste is so subjective. I'm buoyed by your discovery that your French bread at home made with 365 flour is the same as Flo's made with T65.

Thank you all who have been participating in this thread. I have been following along with keen interest. I'm certain many of us are hoping someone will find a formula or procedure to create a flour and then a bread that has the aroma of common French bread. "Common" not meant wth any disrespect please.

 Eric

I thought I'd weigh in on this discussion from a UK perspective.

I've used T55 flour (from M. Bertinet) and while it is certainly different from the AP flour I normally use, I could not honestly say that the *flavour* is significantly better than other flour products readily available in the UK.  It's fair to say that if you want the 'classic baguette' then T55 is pretty much a go-to flour... a reasonably safe bet if you like. However I think there is definitely something to be said for experimentation with other flours (not necessarily french origin) which may well yield results which have subjectively better flavour.  

Currently my own thoughts are running along the lines of using a stronger flour (maybe cut with some high extraction flour) in the preferment and T55 in the final dough.

I'm sure most reading this already know, but perhaps worth remembering that the classification 'T55' or 'T65' simply refers to the ash content (milligrams per 10g test) so there is nothing inherently superior about a product labeled T65 or T55. I'm not aware of any legislation regarding the type of wheat selected for such flours...it just so happens that to achieve 'T55' spect by conventional milling, it might be logical to choose a soft wheat...I don't know. In the end, it's down to the miller's experience and judgement and the product will doubtless vary from mill to mill.

Personally, I'm all for variety...whether by choice or circumstance. The idea of a 'universal' baguette is precisely the sort of concept that I'm sure we'd all strive against. US, UK, and French flours can all give fantastic results both in appearance and flavour - however I would question whether classification/country of origin can be used as a guarantee of either.

I baked a batch of Bouabsa baguettes with 25% Norm's first clear and 75% KAF Bread Flour at 75% hydration. The dough was rather slack. I scored the baguettes but probably should have left them unscored. The crumb was nice and open.

These had more aroma than baguettes made with white flour alone. There was a mild "wheaty" smell to the cut loaf. They had more flavor than without the first clear, but it was not a classic good baguette sweet flavor. This was "good" bread, but did not have my "target" flavor.

The quest must continue.

David

While I don't know your targeted taste, David, that baguette looks very nice and had to taste as good as it looks.

Jane and Steve, really informative experiment and great thread! Jane, I have stumbled across your blog a few times and you are an amazing cook and baker.

I am a longtime member of TFL but have only had time to lurk for well over a year, but your post has piqued my interest. I have always been interested in how different flours taste and handle, and have always wanted to experiment as you have.

For what it is worth, I did a somewhat controlled experiment 2 years ago between KA "Organic Artisan" flour and KA AP, here. The KA Artisan was at the time supposed to be more like French flour in terms of ash content while keeping the protein level the same as AP (11-12% range). However, I could find really no difference at all in taste or performance between those two, they were pretty identical to me. A few caveats, however: I used them in my standard sourdough boule recipe that I love best, my version of the Thom Leonard boule, which contains about 2% whole rye flour and about 22% KA whole wheat flour. (I also use the Celtic Grey Sea Salt from Brittany in that recipe, which I like!)

I have always wanted to obtain some French flour, my father-in-law is a retired 3-star chef in France and has educated me on the finer points of bread and other quality ingredients over the years. When in the States, he insists, however, that my sourdough boules, when made with the flour mix described above, tastes as good as as any of the best bread he gets in France (of course I'm sure he is prejudiced). We will be visiting them in France next summer and I plan to make some bread while there to try out the various flours.

In any event, I tend to believe that we can make our American AP flours behave a bit more like French flour by adding a percentage of whole wheat and rye, as many have pointed out. Any recipe I use that calls for white flour, whether bread flour or AP, I always use Dan Leader's method in Bread Alone of adding in at least 20-25% whole wheat flour to KA AP flour. When I make Reinhart's Pain a L'Ancienne from BBA, I use 25% whole wheat and I do think it tastes nearly as good as any good baguette I remember having in Paris, although any bread fresh from the home oven will certainly skew your memory!

I personally never liked the KA Bread flour, I thought it tasted like cardboard in my resulting bread, too much gluten and not enough flavor, so I never use it.

I have tried an organic Canadian flour, Milanaise, grown and milled in Quebec that I was able to purchase in a 50 lb bag from Dan Leader's Bread Alone Bakery down the road from me. While it had a nice flavor, it was considerably more of a sandy texture than KA AP, and I found my resulting baked breads' crumb all to be very dry and crumbly for some reason. I may try it again though.

Water ...this one I find really interesting, namely because I happen to work for NYC's Water Supply so I may be able to shed some light on a few things there:

MC indicated that her "city" water gave her better results. MC, do you live in NYC? If so, you are receiving unfiltered water from the Catskill Mountains (NYC has the largest unfiltered water supply in the world, it is kept clean through a combo of watershed land protection and reservoir retention and settlement of impurities). Your NYC water is chlorinated to kill pathogens, but it is not filtered. It is NOT, however, a mineral-rich water, it is NOT hard, calcium-rich water, due to the geology of the Catskills, which naturally filters the water with extensive clay deposits. This is probably why everyone says NYC bagels are so good...it's the water. I live at the source of all this water in the Catskills, so my well water, which I use for all my baking, is the same unfiltered, but soft ground water, sans the chlorine. Well water from places like Long Island, NY and Florida are coming from probably deep aquifers that contain a lot of minrerals, metals, salts, and calcium.

I guess my point being, I tend to agree with proth5, MC, and some others who indicate that with the right manipulation of flour and other additions like rye, you can make great bread with what you have locally, just handle the dough differently as well if needed. The quality of your tap water is going to have a big effect I would think, so if you are not lucky enough to have good tap water, get a filter for your sink, and if it is just chlorinated but otherwise OK, just let it sit uncovered 24 hours to evaporate the chlorine.

That said, I still can't wait to get to France next summer and try the French flour :-) It will be interesting to see what the Savoie tap water is like to cook with, however, at my in-laws place.

--Mountaindog

Forgive me for asking the obvious, but why doesn't everyone just use bottled water?  We still have hard water in Jacksonville - so we have a salt water softener.  I would be hesitant to even use the filtered water from the fridge.  

That works....I am now assured that bottled water works for bread.  I use the lousy water for everything else but school lunches - including drinking at home.

I am used to the taste - filtered and salted water that is.  But I am afraid to use it in bread baking.

In the U.S., your local health department can submit your water for chemical analysis at a minimal fee.

Last summer I had to have a new well drilled, which was completed in October.  The new well water, while not as fabulous as my original (shallow well) supply,  turned out to be very good and produces great tasting breads and sourdough.

For what it's worth, the chemical analysis was reported as follows (test results in mg/L):

Chloride: 3.4

Flouride: <0.1

Nitrate as N and Nitrite as N:  <0.1

Sulfate: 15.8

Sodium: <5.0

Hardness as CaCO3: 173

Iron: 0.3

Today I checked out a local health food store today, which sells in bulk.  They did not have a high-gluten white flour, but they did have a bin that was marked "organic high-gluten whole wheat flour".  Now I am really confused - that is one I have not read about yet.  Have you heard of or used anything like this?

I did find Bobs Mills Organic White - hoping this will bring out better flavor in my baguettes.  I currently use KA AP and KA Bread Flour.

I made the baguettes with the King Arthur Bread flour. I had to up the hydration to 81% to get the texture that I usually have with my French T55. I did a test afterwards with the flour to make sure that I didn't do a mistake. But this flour, with 75% hydration, makes a pretty firm ball of dough that I couldn't use the no-knead technique with. I added water and could then fold it in the bowl. The dough was extremely elastic and I think would have kneaded a good rest in order to shape the baguettes. As it was, I had to coax them more than with French flour. I wonder if the type of water makes a difference since we have been discussing it.

The baguettes looked very pretty and the crumb was nice and open (the other ones were even more open than the one I photographed). But the taste was so-so. Good, but not great. I wouldn't bake at home if this was the only flour I had available. I made some more yesterday and added some medium rye and so they were a bit tastier.

It's been fun to test and now I'm curious about the other mill flours you have available. I think there is a wide range to choose from but they aren't easily accessible for Americans. The country is so huge and travelling and transport is expensive.

Jane

Mountaindog wrote: "...But I agree that the KA Bread flour is all structure and no taste, as are a lot of US bread flours."

When will this nonsense stop?

Howard

I'm sure we could go on forever about the different flours, brands that are great, not so great, blends that work, etc; Steve is right about the T55 being less flavorful and that comes back to what was said about the higher ash content in the T65. White flour is white flour in the end, I'd say, even if some are better than others. It is just very interesting that in France a flour with higher ash content is a basic flour while in the States it is a specialty product or not even available.

I understand what your saying, MD. The bread flour does seem to garantee results. The lack of flavor again comes from the low ash content, I guess. A T65 bread flour could be paradise for many a baker!

Is the nonsense that white flour has little taste or that there are a lot of bad flours in the States? There are a lot of bad flours in France! I sent Steve "la crème de la crème".

Jane

Hello,

First you will excuse my bad english. English is not my mother tongue.

My name is Berry, and I Pastry Chef and author of a technology pastry French Book.

With this message I will try to explain the differences between french and american flour.  

First the big difference between French Flour and American Flour is the wheat. In north America the wheat is usually hard spring wheat and In Europe the wheat is usually a medium soft winter wheat (in english medium soft means semi-hard wheat). This difference play on the extensibility and the elasticity. French Flour is more extensible and less elastic and American flour is the contrary. That is why It is suggest to add a small amount of starch to improve your dough.
Recently, I discovered that medium-soft or semi-hard wheat is culitvated in Canada and in the United States and the french kind of wheat used in France is cultivated in the United States. Unfortunatly, I don't know what is done with this wheat. I read that this flour is maybe export in Asia for the noodles. 
The other point is the Falling Number in Europe the falling number is less than the one in the American flour (it is to complecate for me to explain in english what Falling Number means. :-) This indicate if the flour have enzyme to transform damaged starch in sugar). That is why in America they add malt and in Canada Amylase. These ingredient are enzyme wich help to have better volume and color. These enzymes help to generate the sugar necessary for the yeast. I am not sure but in America the malt is at 0.5% and in Europe when it is used it is at 0.3% (Diastic Malt) . You can also add suggar but not more than 2%. In Canada a copany use for their Pita bread a combination of sugar and malt. It has a very good taste and a better smell than other pita bread.
The spring Hard Wheat give a more dry taste than the medium wheat which is more sweet. To have a better taste in direct method your dough must proof at a lower temperature which means longer time for proofing. 
The other point is the protein in France the gluten for the bread is about 9% to 11% max 12% ( about 11% to 13% American protein) But don't forget The protein depend of the kind of wheat and the component of the protein (gliadin and glutenin). That is why 9% french protein on dry matter wich means about 11% North America protein based on 14% water is not the same !
There is another difference is texture of the crumb I you have noticed the french one is more thin than the one made with the American or Canadian flour. It is much more evident with organic wheat especially the wheat we have in Quebec. This difference is maybe due to the hydratation quantity.
More Hydratation modify the structure of the crumb.  

The best result is a combination of hard spring wheat and hard winter wheat with amylase and 11% of protein which is sometimes call Artisan Flour. You can add for better taste and better result about 15% of T80 or T110 or T150. Unfortunatly, this seems not avaiable in America or Canada but you can found it in Quebec. It is usually called Organic Bread Flour. The non organic bread flour are not T80 or T110 or T150. The problem is that you never know if it is T80 or T150 you have to call the compagny. In Canada and America ask the company who make organic wheat flour if they can sell you this kind of flour. Uusually OrganicFlour made with Stony grindstone (I am not sure if it is the right translation) is T65 or look like T65. T65 doesn't mean better taste as I explain before. The taste depends on the kind of the wheat. That is why hard White wheat have so much success in North America. 

If French have a better flour for bread, American flour have much better flour for pastry! I am surprised to see people using All Purpose flour, especially french chef, to make cakes and other pastry product. Pastry Flour is the best for all your pastry except enriched dough and puff pastry (pate feuilletée). In France they don't have soft flour ! The soft flour is just for the industrial. That is why some French Chef use the same flour that they use for the classic bread T55 for their pastry and other prefer to use much stronger flour wich look like All Purpose flour or the bread flour In that case they have to add more butter and or more eggs to have a tender and moister cake as we have with the pastry flour even if the gluten don't make a big difference in cakes. For people who live in France and want to found a pastry flour like the one we have in north America ask for farine de blé biscuitier à 11% proteines (Usually is 10.5% protein). This flour is quiet similar as the pastry flour at 9% protein.

In France they use the name T55 and T65 and T45 which means nothing about rheology of the flour. It indicates only the % of ashes and give an indirect information avout the flour extraction. That is why when the french chef say use T55 or T45 that's means nothing if you don't know the technical flour information. It just say that the flour is more white than other which means that the gluten will react better.  That is why french home baker or sometimes confuse when they buy flour from the supermarket because T45 is not the T45 use by  the Pastry Chef. 

I hope this message will help you to understand more the differences between the North American Flour and French flour.

Sorry again for my english. If you have other question write me.

Berry

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Thanks to Jane and Steve for providing a wealth of information on the entire flour subject.

In Bread Alone, Daniel Leader talks about switching from organic flour to conventional flour and seeing all the flavor disappear from his bread.  I think that the organic factor is an enormous one when the subject is flavor.  As a gardener/cook/baker I have seen the incredible difference in flavor from a conventional product to its organic counterpart.  We use 95% or more organic food and on the rare occasion when a conventional item is used we are often quite surprised at the lack of flavor.

The supermarkets in the USA are loaded with some of the most beautiful picture perfect non organic produce that one could ever hope to see.  Regrettably this all comes at the expense of any real flavor.  To know that this could also be true in the case of flour is certainly no surprise.

Jeff

Hi,

I'm trying to order T65 from French importers in the U.S. If you'd like some, please check out my forum post below. Thanks!

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23504/importing-french-flour-who-wants

Chris

I'd love the T65 - 10KG a month if possible!

- Lauralei